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On March 27 2018 05:47 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On March 27 2018 05:41 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 27 2018 05:37 Nixer wrote:On March 27 2018 05:32 xDaunt wrote:
No reasonably honest person is going to buy the argument that Danglars is a qualitatively worse poster than the majority of participants in the thread.
And this idea that removing Danglars will get rid of the "belligerence" in the political threads is one of the dumbest "no shit, Sherlock" ideas that I have ever seen. When you turn the thread into a giant circle jerk, of course the "belligerence" is going to disappear!
Christ, you mods should just come out and say that you don't want to deal with moderating the US politics thread anymore so you'd rather kill it. You can have opposing views without being a dickhead. Bluntly put. I think one of the reasons that some posters,myself included, see this as harsh on danglars is that there is context here that is very important: If there's a bad argument in the thread, danglars will almost always be involved. This is because he is putting forward opinions that are held by maybe 2 or 3 people in the thread, whereas the people arguing with him are normally in a huge crowd. That crowd, taken as a whole, is far worse behaved than danglars but there is no way of punishing 15 posters all at once whereas just banning danglars is easy. He's basically (indirectly) been bullied off the thread. I'm left wondering who would have got banned if instead of all of those posters reporting danglars, he had reported all of the posters who had become aggressive with him. I get the feeling the result would have been the same. Because he argues like an asshole and doesn’t listen to people. The last time I argued with them I agreed he was right, but also pointed out that no one in the thread was talking about what he was objecting to. He ignored what I said and continued to regurgitate this talking points, like I had never said I agreed with him. There are times I believe he doesn’t even read what people are posting in response to him. Yeah this happens I'm not going to deny it. I've come across several posters who's regular posting style is worse than his, though, and nothing happens. I really think the only reason that its so noticeable with danglars is that he is constantly at odds with the majority of the posters in the thread, and that in itself isn't worthy of a ban IMHO.
Well report those other bad posters and they will get warned or banned when they shit up the thread.
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If we can now report based on tone then I might have to start using the report function. When it comes to substance Danglars' persistence in responding was admirable, it would be sad to see that translate into more posts to report and thus to more bans.
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The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views.
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On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views.
When we're discussing a situation where one person from one political view was banned from the thread for being reported by people from the opposite political view its not a tactic its stating the fact.
TL mods admitted that they wanted to ban Danglers from the thread instead of the people who disagree with him politically because that was the easiest way they saw to improve the hostility in the thread. You can see that for what it is or not but that won't change the facts.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36990 Posts
On March 27 2018 06:16 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. When we're discussing a situation where one person from one political view was banned from the thread for being reported by people from the opposite political view its not a tactic its stating the fact. TL mods admitted that they wanted to ban Danglers from the thread instead of the people who disagree with him politically because that was the easiest way they saw to improve the hostility in the thread. You can see that for what it is or not but that won't change the facts.
Sermokala, you are not a mod and thus, you have no idea what we have or haven't discussed in regards to Danglars and our decision to temp ban him. What we have chosen to publicly disclose is not 100% of everything that took place that led to this decision. We are not obligated to disclose every single detail. Please stop talking as if you know exactly what's going on in our minds.
However, if you want a bit more transparency from the mods, then here it is: Several factors were considered before we even began discussing temp banning Danglars from the thread.
1. Danglars past mod notes and his history.
2. Danglars' behavior then and now.
3. Danglars' posting habits and how he responds to people that call him out.
4. How Danglars portrays himself within that thread.
5. What effect Danglars has on that thread with his posts.
All of these were put into consideration and discussed in length before we arrived at our conclusion.
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On March 27 2018 06:28 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:16 Sermokala wrote:On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. When we're discussing a situation where one person from one political view was banned from the thread for being reported by people from the opposite political view its not a tactic its stating the fact. TL mods admitted that they wanted to ban Danglers from the thread instead of the people who disagree with him politically because that was the easiest way they saw to improve the hostility in the thread. You can see that for what it is or not but that won't change the facts. Sermokala, you are not a mod and thus, you have no idea what we have or haven't discussed in regards to Danglars and our decision to temp ban him. What we have chosen to publicly disclose is not 100% of everything that took place that led to this decision. We are not obligated to disclose every single detail. Please stop talking as if you know exactly what's going on in our minds. However, if you want a bit more transparency from the mods, then here it is: Several factors were considered before we even began discussing temp banning Danglars from the thread. 1. Danglars past mod notes and his history. 2. Danglars' behavior then and now. 3. Danglars' posting habits and how he responds to people that call him out. 4. How Danglars portrays himself within that thread. 5. What effect Danglars has on that thread with his posts. All of these were put into consideration and discussed in length before we arrived at our conclusion.
I'm not talking based on whats going on in your minds I'm going off of what you've told us about it. Specifically starting out that it was about how people were wrongly reported his posts.
3 to 5 all I see is that you don't want xdaunt or me to post in the thread anymore. I take the message loud and clear. You probably won't hear from me in this thread or the Us politics thread again If thats the case.
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On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views.
Its not about him being a victim - i guess - but its definitely about his politics views.
He was constantly at odds with 90% of the posters in the thread because he's right wing, and its how those arguments went down that caused him to be banned. Its an indirect result of his political views.
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On March 27 2018 06:40 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. Its not about him being a victim - i guess - but its definitely about his politics views. He was constantly at odds with 90% of the posters in the thread because he's right wing, and its how those arguments went down that caused him to be banned. Its an indirect result of his political views.
As I have said before, he is passive aggressive in those views and constantly frames himself as a victim when he is called out. As someone who regularly engages conservatives in discussion, it has little to do with his views and everything to do with how he frames them and his tone. And more importantly, it seems intentional in some effort insight agressive responses from liberal posters.
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On March 27 2018 06:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:28 Seeker wrote:On March 27 2018 06:16 Sermokala wrote:On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. When we're discussing a situation where one person from one political view was banned from the thread for being reported by people from the opposite political view its not a tactic its stating the fact. TL mods admitted that they wanted to ban Danglers from the thread instead of the people who disagree with him politically because that was the easiest way they saw to improve the hostility in the thread. You can see that for what it is or not but that won't change the facts. Sermokala, you are not a mod and thus, you have no idea what we have or haven't discussed in regards to Danglars and our decision to temp ban him. What we have chosen to publicly disclose is not 100% of everything that took place that led to this decision. We are not obligated to disclose every single detail. Please stop talking as if you know exactly what's going on in our minds. However, if you want a bit more transparency from the mods, then here it is: Several factors were considered before we even began discussing temp banning Danglars from the thread. 1. Danglars past mod notes and his history. 2. Danglars' behavior then and now. 3. Danglars' posting habits and how he responds to people that call him out. 4. How Danglars portrays himself within that thread. 5. What effect Danglars has on that thread with his posts. All of these were put into consideration and discussed in length before we arrived at our conclusion. I'm not talking based on whats going on in your minds I'm going off of what you've told us about it. Specifically starting out that it was about how people were wrongly reported his posts. 3 to 5 all I see is that you don't want xdaunt or me to post in the thread anymore. I take the message loud and clear. You probably won't hear from me in this thread or the Us politics thread again If thats the case.
Yep, I can't agree more.
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On March 27 2018 06:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. Its not about him being a victim - i guess - but its definitely about his politics views. He was constantly at odds with 90% of the posters in the thread because he's right wing, and its how those arguments went down that caused him to be banned. Its an indirect result of his political views. As I have said before, he is passive aggressive in those views and constantly frames himself as a victim when he is called out. As someone who regularly engages conservatives in discussion, it has little to do with his views and everything to do with how he frames them and his tone. And more importantly, it seems intentional in some effort insight agressive responses from liberal posters.
Fair enough.
I personally think the thread will be better with danglars in it, I've put my opinion here and its up to the mods whether they take that into account or not.
If not, I guess that's a few less inane arguments I'll have in my life, but a less diverse set of opinions I'll encounter at the same time.
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On March 27 2018 06:55 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:51 Plansix wrote:On March 27 2018 06:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. Its not about him being a victim - i guess - but its definitely about his politics views. He was constantly at odds with 90% of the posters in the thread because he's right wing, and its how those arguments went down that caused him to be banned. Its an indirect result of his political views. As I have said before, he is passive aggressive in those views and constantly frames himself as a victim when he is called out. As someone who regularly engages conservatives in discussion, it has little to do with his views and everything to do with how he frames them and his tone. And more importantly, it seems intentional in some effort insight agressive responses from liberal posters. Fair enough. I personally think the thread will be better with danglars in it, I've put my opinion here and its up to the mods whether they take that into account or not. If not, I guess that's a few less inane arguments I'll have in my life, but a less diverse set of opinions I'll encounter at the same time.
Ive never found a shortage of diverse opinions in my life. I’ve never really seen that ever present concern people have on the internet reflected in reality.
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On March 27 2018 07:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 06:55 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 27 2018 06:51 Plansix wrote:On March 27 2018 06:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On March 27 2018 06:12 Plansix wrote:
The constant framing of people being victims because of their political views is tiring. And it is hard to see it as anything more than a tactic to avoid moderation or attack other TL members have opposing views. Its not about him being a victim - i guess - but its definitely about his politics views. He was constantly at odds with 90% of the posters in the thread because he's right wing, and its how those arguments went down that caused him to be banned. Its an indirect result of his political views. As I have said before, he is passive aggressive in those views and constantly frames himself as a victim when he is called out. As someone who regularly engages conservatives in discussion, it has little to do with his views and everything to do with how he frames them and his tone. And more importantly, it seems intentional in some effort insight agressive responses from liberal posters. Fair enough. I personally think the thread will be better with danglars in it, I've put my opinion here and its up to the mods whether they take that into account or not. If not, I guess that's a few less inane arguments I'll have in my life, but a less diverse set of opinions I'll encounter at the same time. Ive never found a shortage of diverse opinions in my life. I’ve never really seen that ever present concern people have on the internet reflected in reality.
You live in the US, where people with the kind of views danglars has are not rare (I assume).
The same is not really true in the UK, at least not among people I would come into contact with.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 27 2018 05:32 xDaunt wrote:
Christ, you mods should just come out and say that you don't want to deal with moderating the US politics thread anymore so you'd rather kill it.
That’s a pretty great way to describe what’s going on here.
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United States24633 Posts
On March 27 2018 04:53 Sermokala wrote:
"gee we see a lot of people disagree with you and wrongly report you so we're just going to go ahead and ban you"
Just to be clear, this was not actually why there was a temp threadban for Danglars. Getting wrongly reported is not a valid reason for someone to be banned.
Also, that long cake discussion was not a factor (as far as I'm aware) in the issuance of the temp threadban. I think the delay can be chalked up to working out the bugs with regards to issuing a temp threadban (I actually don't even know how it's done).
I think the explanations provided have been fairly lazy and I apologize for that but there actually has been a significant amount of studying his posting history to see how he contributes to the thread and that is what factored into the decision.
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On March 27 2018 08:19 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 04:53 Sermokala wrote:
"gee we see a lot of people disagree with you and wrongly report you so we're just going to go ahead and ban you" Just to be clear, this was not actually why there was a temp threadban for Danglars. Getting wrongly reported is not a valid reason for someone to be banned. Also, that long cake discussion was not a factor (as far as I'm aware) in the issuance of the temp threadban. I think the delay can be chalked up to working out the bugs with regards to issuing a temp threadban (I actually don't even know how it's done). I think the explanations provided have been fairly lazy and I apologize for that but there actually has been a significant amount of studying his posting history to see how he contributes to the thread and that is what factored into the decision.
So y'all created a new "contribution" standard just for conservatives. Great?
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On March 27 2018 08:56 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2018 08:19 micronesia wrote:On March 27 2018 04:53 Sermokala wrote:
"gee we see a lot of people disagree with you and wrongly report you so we're just going to go ahead and ban you" Just to be clear, this was not actually why there was a temp threadban for Danglars. Getting wrongly reported is not a valid reason for someone to be banned. Also, that long cake discussion was not a factor (as far as I'm aware) in the issuance of the temp threadban. I think the delay can be chalked up to working out the bugs with regards to issuing a temp threadban (I actually don't even know how it's done). I think the explanations provided have been fairly lazy and I apologize for that but there actually has been a significant amount of studying his posting history to see how he contributes to the thread and that is what factored into the decision. So y'all created a new "contribution" standard just for conservatives. Great?
They didn't ban you from the thread, so apparently not.
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United States24633 Posts
Exhibit A is one bad post elicits another. But to seriously address the issue of contributing, it is #4 of the TL Ten Commandments.
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On March 27 2018 09:57 micronesia wrote:
Exhibit A is one bad post elicits another. But to seriously address the issue of contributing, it is #4 of the TL Ten Commandments.
You do understand the optics problem, right? If you're going to do this "study" on Danglars, culminating in a decision that he does not sufficiently "contribute" to the thread, it's patently obvious that at least half a dozen liberal posters warrant the same "study," with a good chunk of those studies resulting in bans. The single greatest failure of the TL moderation staff has always been the utter refusal to rein in the liberal shitposting. If you actually want to eliminate the "belligerence" in the thread while maintaining an open dialogue among a diverse group of posters, that's where you need to start. That's where you have always needed to start.
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United States24633 Posts
The issue is not insufficient contribution so much as destructive contribution (regardless of political alignment; good contribution can compete with destructive contribution but only to a point). The description (by some) of this as some 'study' to see what will happen is silly in my opinion. When TL moderation identifies a user with unacceptable behavior, moderator action results. Other users may be crossing the line as well and further action very well may occur. Clearly TL moderation does not agree that other users were worse offenders.
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I kinda think their single greatest failure is not reigning in the conservative shitposting about the “left” and “leftist”. Both of which are not political parties or even a defined group. I’ve always felt those posts lacked specifics and painted with to broad a brush to be considered anything but thinly veiled flame bait. Phrases like “Ya’ll on the left think....” are just pure trolling. It lacks the courage to name the a specific party or group, but is always followed with a bunch of accusations about political leanings. It both provokes left leaning TL members, but provides cover for the poster to back out if they are accused of shitposting.
Edit: I really don’t think it’s their greatest failure, I just wanted to use the same langaue as framing.
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EPT
