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Maru-
21 Posts
On May 29 2011 00:49 Darclite wrote: That is a brilliant line lol. I mean, all of what you said was spot on, but that was great haha. You mind if I quote you on that elsewhere? Sure, feel free my friend. Quote it to your heart's content.  | ||
SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4000 Posts
On May 28 2011 20:00 Maru- wrote: Are we really going to debate who's god is real and who's is fake now ? Are you guys serious ? Both Islamic mythology and Judeo-Christian mythology are equally absurd when it comes to realism. I have a feeling that this might have been a more productive discussion had it been a balance argument between a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim. "Allah is so OP!" | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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Maru-
21 Posts
On May 29 2011 05:10 SirJolt wrote: I have a feeling that this might have been a more productive discussion had it been a balance argument between a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim. "Allah is so OP!" Thank Go...uhh...Be thankful it didnt because this thread would never die as each person would be trying to prove without actual proof that their absurd beliefs are less absurd than the other guys' beliefs. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On May 29 2011 05:24 D10 wrote: God is fair. It will reincarnate Just leave it already, its dead jim  On May 28 2011 18:11 Maru- wrote: Signature-worthy material here. If mine wasn't already awesome I would quote you instead ^^Of course he is a troll...he believes the bible....The bible is the bronze age trolling the infomation age. | ||
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SirJolt
the Dagon Knight4000 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:13 Maru- wrote: Thank Go...uhh...Be thankful it didnt because this thread would never die as each person would be trying to prove without actual proof that their absurd beliefs are less absurd than the other guys' beliefs. "Mohammad only did totally reasonable stuff! Jesus walked on water and did all miracle loaves and fishes food... so imba." | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote: Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... Actually, I would. That is, if watches reproduced, mutated and were subject to natural selection. Amusing, isn't it? | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
Also, what is "fair" is often very subjective and disputed by different individuals with different world views. | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
On May 29 2011 00:58 ClysmiC wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by rebutting your points, as this was primarily a summary of Islamic beliefs and history, not an argument for its correctness. But I'll discuss some of the points made. I understand that the religion Islam is not extreme like most people think. Sure, some people take it to extremes performing acts of jihad, but that is not an issue with the religion itself (just as the Crusades were not Christianity's fault, they were the fault certain Christians who did not understand their own religion). From what I understand, Islam preaches peace and love. But here's one thing I've never quite understood about Islam. Muslims regard Jesus as one of the most honorable prophets of God. In fact, the Qur'an mentions him more than it does Muhammed. Yet, Jesus, in no uncertain terms, states himself to be the Son of God, and states that he "is the way to truth and the light. No one comes to the Father but through [him]" (John 14:6), which is not believed by Muslims. The only explanation I can think of is that Muslims believe one of their highest prophets made heinous, untruthful claims. To me, this severely undermines the integrity of the religion as a whole. I don't claim this explanation to be the actual view of Muslims, but it is the only one that I can think of. I'd like to hear if you have a different explanation for this seeming inconsistency so that I can further understand the views of Islam, as I love to learn about all religions. I'm not a muslims (i'm a Baha'i) but the quote from john I can easily explain. its all about how you look at it. Jesus never auctally states that he was the son of God (he calls God Father, but so do many christains) so the fact he was son of God is auctally decided at the council of nicea, where also what books in the current bible were decided. There are many other books written by followers of christ that were not in the Bible. Many have been found and are now pulblished in books. But still not in the Bible. Putting that aside. We look at that quote and think that only Jesus was the way to God, and anything else is false and lies. We need to look deeper than that. In the Baha'i faith we call Jesus a messenger of God, Messengers come at times when the world needs them most. ( not an official Baha'i source but a good one for more info on that last sentance. http://bahaikipedia.org/Progressive_revelation ) so if we look at it that way, he is one of a big line of messengers who have come and gone. We believe that all the messengers have the same Spirit (so to speak) and so they are different, but the same. If you take Christ's comment. Nobody goes to the Father but through him. He is declaring that whoever goes through one of the messengers of God. WIll go to the Father. When we think about it this way it makes a bit more sense. In the Baha'i faith we believe that regardless of your religion, your race, creed, culture, gender, sexuality. If you do good on this Earth, God will reward you. Because God is not so cruel as to only let Baha'is to the Abha' Kingdom (closeness to God (or heaven, as some call it) ). There are people of all religions (or no religion, or don't believe in God) with God. If you do bad things on this Earth, you will be far from God and in a metaphorical Hell. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On May 28 2011 12:58 ClysmiC wrote: I just want to point out that the Christians don't try to make themselves worthy of illumination (well some do, but they have a misunderstanding of the bible). There are many sects of Christianity and they do not all believe as you do on this one. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
A recent WKUK sketch involving storks sending babies everywhere was pretty hilarious and related to this topic | ||
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Tony Campolo
New Zealand364 Posts
On May 29 2011 00:58 ClysmiC wrote: But here's one thing I've never quite understood about Islam. Muslims regard Jesus as one of the most honorable prophets of God. In fact, the Qur'an mentions him more than it does Muhammed. Yet, Jesus, in no uncertain terms, states himself to be the Son of God, and states that he "is the way to truth and the light. No one comes to the Father but through [him]" (John 14:6), which is not believed by Muslims. The only explanation I can think of is that Muslims believe one of their highest prophets made heinous, untruthful claims. To me, this severely undermines the integrity of the religion as a whole. Yes, I have heard this argument several times in Christian apologetic circles, and no doubt it is a point that you heard being made in a Church sermon and that you have never actually gone out into say a Mosque or Iman to discuss to try and understand from a Muslim perspective. It can easily be explained by the Koran - which is the scriptures Muslims follow, rather than the books of the New Testament, which are the scriptures Christians follow. Nowhere in the Koran does it say that Jesus said He was the Son of God, but rather that He is a holy prophet. In which case I am also pretty sure you've never read the Koran before, but only the Bible. This is the problem with a lot of Christians, especially mainstream American evangelical Christians, who take every word their pastors say as truth without trying to rebut or challenge what they teach their flocks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam | ||
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Tony Campolo
New Zealand364 Posts
Holy Qur’an 3:58-59—"These signs, and this wise warning do we rehearse to thee. Verily, Jesus, is as Adam in the sight of Allah. He created him of dust, He then said to him, Be—and he was." Holy Qur’an 43:57-65— "And when the son of Mary was sent forth as a sign, lo! Thy people cried out for joy thereat. And they said, ‘Are our gods or is he better?’ They put this forth to thee only in the way of dispute. Yea, but they are a quarreling people. Jesus is only a servant whom we favored, and made a sign to the Children of Israel; and if we pleased, we could from yourselves bring forth angles to succeed you on earth; and he shall be a sign of the Last Hour; doubt not then of it, and follow ye me; this is the right way; and let not Satan turn you aside from it, for he is your manifest foe. And when Jesus came with manifest proofs, he said, ‘Now I am come to you with wisdom; and a part of those things which ye differ, I will clear up to you; therefore, worship Allah, and obey my commands; this is the right way;’ but the different parties fell into disputes among themselves; but woe to those who thus transgressed, because of the punishment of a painful day!" Holy Qur’an 9:30—"The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah; that is what they say with their mouths imitating the saying of the unbelievers before them—Allah fight them! How they lie!" Holy Qur’an 3:78-79— "And truly among the people of the Book are some who change the scriptures with their tongue, in order that ye may suppose it from the scripture. And they say: ‘This is from Allah, yet it is not from Allah, and they utter a lie against Allah, and they know they do so.’ It is not fitting that Allah should give him the scripture and the Wisdom, and the gift of prophecy, and then he should say to his followers, ‘Be ye worshippers of me as well as of Allah;’ but rather, ‘Be ye perfect in things pertaining to Allah since ye know the scripture, and have studied deep.’" Holy Qur’an 5:17—"Infidels now are they who say, ‘Verily Allah is the Messiah son of Mary!’ Say: And who could divert form Allah, if He chose to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother and all who are on the earth together?" Holy Qur’an 5:72-75—"They misbelieve who say, verily Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary, but the Messiah said, ‘O Children of Israel! I worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Verily, he who associates partners with Allah, Allah hath forbidden him paradise, and his resort is the fire, and the disbeliever shall have none to help him. They misbelieve who say, ‘verily, Allah is the third of three,’ for there is no Allah, but One; And if they do not desist form what they say, there shall touch those who misbelieve amongst them grievous woe. Will they not turn again towards Allah and ask pardon of Him? For Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, the son of Mary, is only a Prophet! Prophets before him have passed away; and his mother was a witness; they, both, used to eat food. See how we explain to you the signs, yet see how they turn away." Holy Qur’an 4:171— "O ye people of the Book! Overstep not bounds in your religion; and of Allah, speak only truth. Jesus, son of Mary is only a Prophet of Allah, and His Word, which he conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit from Him. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Prophet, and say not ‘three’ (there is a trinity)—forbear—it will be better for you. Allah is only One Allah! Far be it from His Glory that He should have a son! His is whatever is in the heavens, and whatever is in the earth! And Allah is a sufficient Guardian." | ||
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Tony Campolo
New Zealand364 Posts
God spent 1400+ years pounding the idea that He was One, perfect unity (indivisible and incapable of being diluted) into the mind of the Jews, and then the Christians expect them to believe that God said: "Oops, just kidding, I became a man even though that's what I always said I wouldn't or couldn't do! It is now OK to worship a human because it's really Me"! See the entire part after the spoilers: + Show Spoiler + It is often said in Pentecostal Churches that Jesus was the Messiah, and that somehow this is proof that the Bible is infallible - because He fulfilled all these prophecies in the Old Testament that the writers could not possibly have known about. If the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus can be proven based on the Old Testament, then one would have to accept Him as their Lord and have a relationship with Him in order to be saved. So basically, the fact that Adolf Eichmann (the 'architect of the Holocaust') had accepted Jesus into his heart right before his execution meant that he would have been admitted straight into the Kingdom of God (Jesus having paid the full price), and the 6 million 'Heathen' Jews he killed, who did not have a 'relationship with Jesus' and who did not accept Him as their 'Lord and Saviour' (and in fact, being of the Judaic faith, would have flat out rejected this notion of Him being the Messiah) would be 'separated from God for all eternity' (Luke 11:25 - "Remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things; but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us"). Jewish theology argues that Jesus was not the Messiah that was foretold by Isaiah and others because He failed to fulfil even the basic requirements of a Messiah. Take for example the following prophecies: * The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18) * The Messiah will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11) * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) * Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52) * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39) * The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40) * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3) * Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33) * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9) All of this is supposed to happen during the lifetime of Israel's Messiah. There is no concept of second return (a la Revelation) mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament. Peter expected Jesus to become King when He appeared before them, which is why he refused to believe that Jesus had to be crucified. Yet Jesus says to Peter: "get behind me Satan". So the way modern Churches view Jesus today as the Messiah who fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy is not the way the 5000 who followed Him during His lifetime viewed Him (because they did not believe that He was going to die and say: "I'll come back another time, in the meantime, here's the Holy Spirit"). They had expected Him to establish His Kingdom there and then. And the way that modern Churches view Jesus today is not the way Judaism views Him, as Jews believe that, given a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, Jesus was not the foretold Messiah, failing to fulfil the prophecies above (which are yet to come). So let's move on to why the Pharisees of that time wanted Jesus killed. Was it because they were just plainly cold hearted and jealous so did not want to believe that that He could die for our sins, as an atonement for their sins? Deuteronomy 13 states: Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, and he says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known." Of the gods of the peoples around you, near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Let's not forget to mention the fact that God commanded in the Old Testament: Deuteronomy 4:40 - So you shall keep His statutes and His commandments which I am giving you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may live long on the land which the Lord your God is giving you for all time. Deuteronomy 11:1 - You shall therefore love the Lord your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments. Deuteronomy 12:28 - Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, in order that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God. Why exactly would these commandments not be binding forever and it be OK for all the Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles to suddenly worship Jesus when the Israelites didn't know Him? Because God clearly commanded His people to only worship Himself only, who saved them from slavery in Egypt. Why would God say that those commandments are forever if He was going to come back under human form and say: "nevermind all that guys, changed my mind, just believe in Me as your Lord and Saviour and all will be fine (by the way here's a list of very drastic changes to your basic theology that will be further explained to you by non-Jews and now you're all going to go to Hell instead of Heaven if you listen to what I told you before in the Old Testament - get on with the program)". And please note that the place of Hell is a theological concept that came with Jesus - back in Old Testament times, people were simply destroyed. God spent 1400+ years pounding the idea that He was One, perfect unity (indivisible and incapable of being diluted) into the mind of the Jews, and then the Christians expect them to believe that God said: "Oops, just kidding, I became a man even though that's what I always said I wouldn't or couldn't do! It is now OK to worship a human because it's really Me"! Then Christians expect the Jews to believe that Jesus was the Messiah God sent to be accepted as an innocent human sacrifice for His people - please note that this is not the Jesus of Revelation riding on a white horse to defeat Satan - He was meant to come as is in the way He is described by... Guess who... John, the Holy Spirit 'Jesus is the only way' disciple, the 'one whom He loved', in Revelation (refer to the verses quoted above). Would God truly be so incapable of forgiving those who had followed Him all through the Old Testament, those whose relationship with Him was in complete contradiction to Jesus, without creating a stumbling block - telling them to suddenly forget everything Moses said, and instead adopt the ideas of the pagans, who had many demigods dying and being reborn and to worship Jesus? The NT is in Greek, despite the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic (see Mark, it quotes him speaking Aramaic during his teachings). Jesus probably couldn't even speak Greek. So the only surviving record we have of him left is in Greek, written for a Greek audience (Aramaic phrases translated for their convenience, Jesus is called "the Logos" which is a 100% Greek philosophical idea found only in Greek texts) and calls him the "Son of God", which was likewise a Greek concept (Emperors were called 'sons of God' as well). Couple this with the fact that all quotations of the Old Testament in the NT are from the Greek translation. The teachings of Christ was somewhat coherent among the three synoptic gospels, but they do not agree at all on the virgin birth, or on the resurrection or ascension. Mark (the earliest gospel) has no virgin birth account, and Luke and Matthew have conflicting accounts and genealogies. All four gospels have different people going to the empty tomb (and Mark just ends at the empty tomb), and had differing accounts of what Christ did after he rose. Even Paul in all his letters does not mention an empty tomb, even when it would have helped his views. So let's focus on something that is obviously of important significance: What did Jesus say about all of this? Jesus said to him: "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord, and serve Him only'". And Jesus said to him: "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone". But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the Angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Despite the writings of those wishing to paganise Old Testament Judaism and make Christ an idol, bits and pieces of the truth seep through. Christ was a mortal, just like all other humans, and he urged his followers to worship God only, saying: "Jesus answered: "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is One Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind and strength'". He emphasised to the blind man he healed or the lepers not to go and tell the Pharisees of His deeds, because He did not want to be known as the Son of God. Let's return to the list of prophecies one more time, now that we have a background understanding: * The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) The Sanhedrin (Pharisaic Courthouse) still existed during the lifetime of Jesus, and was dissolved long after His death, and hasn't been reinstated after His death. He is supposed to be crowned King and the leaders of the world would go to him in Jerusalem to ask for guidance. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) The whole world will worship the One God of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17) The whole world is supposed to worship the God of Israel. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. Note that this comes in Revelation. * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11) Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) He is supposed to include and attract people from all nations during his lifetime. He wasn't even able to attract anyone except a handful of ignorant Jews who knew nothing about Judaism or Mosaic law (this is not me being an asshole, that's from the New Testament itself. All of a sudden everyone who was rescued from Egypt and formed Israel was suddenly wrong about God and Moses' teachings became irrelevant). * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8) Death will be swallowed up forever? People are still dying. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) No more hunger, illness or death? Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) All the dead will rise again? Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) The Jews will experience eternal joy and gladness? Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52) No religion has shed more blood in History than Christianity, not even Islam gets that title. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) Nations will recognise the wrongs they did to the Jews and turn to them for spiritual guidance? Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. Please note that if you are discarding these prophecies you are discarding the Old Testament. * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39) * The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40) * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3) What about the ruined cities of Israel being restored or the fact that swords will be turned into ploughshares and there won't be war anymore? Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. The Temple still stood when he died, has been destroyed and hasn't be rebuilt. The Messiah is supposed to rebuild the third Temple. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. Sacrifices are supposed to be reinstated in that Temple. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. The world is supposed to be perfected and the whole world is supposed to serve God. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. * He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9) He will take barren lands and make them fruitful, give all the worthy desires of your heart. The Negev is still a desert and I don't see people receiving their worthy desires. Didn't happen. Hasn't happened since then. Most Christians get their beliefs probably from listening to a pastor at a Church, who in turn probably did the same. They believe that Jesus died and rose again, and that He's alive in Heaven now. So He is still alive, in the Christian understanding. Completely ignoring the fact that the OT does not explicitly say that the prophecies didn't have to be fulfilled in the Messiah's Earthly lifetime. Christians assert that the prophecies have been fulfilled, ignoring the majority of them which say He's going to rule over the Earth, and just pass them off by saying: "He's going to come back when the rapture comes" - despite the fact that nowhere in Old Testament prophecy of this concept. Where does it say in the Old Testament that there is such a thing as the second return. Old Testament prophecies describe what is going to happen once the Messiah is revealed and what will happen to the people who live in his generation. None of the above things happened during the lifetime of Jesus. Christians say: "Well He's just going to come back"! Where does it say that he's going to die and come back in the Old Testament? Nowhere. Please remember that the Gospels were a historical record of Jesus' life, not prophetic books. And please note that a lot of the theology today which dominates mainstream Churches (which, I am reluctant to call theology given that a lot of it is just simply feel good romanticism) all stem from Paul's letters. Now why would Paul teach all these things about Christ and the meaning of His dying as an atonement for our sins, when Jesus Himself never emphasised these things? Pentecostal faith is heavily dependent on the Book of Romans - the whole 'relationship with God' ideology, whereas everything Jesus ever talked about represented good works. So when I hear in Church: "being a Christian is about having a relationship with God, not good works" - this is in fact following Paul's teachings, whereas Jesus often accepted those who knew nothing about God, such as little children, saying the Kingdom of God is theirs, not saying: "without a relationship with Me, you will not get to Heaven". So, if Jesus is indeed the Messiah and He is going to come back and do what He's supposed to do sometime in the future (Revelation), why are Jews doomed to Hell for rejecting Him when He clearly did nothing He was supposed to do in terms of Old Testament prophecy? | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
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