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On May 28 2011 13:54 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:49 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:44 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:41 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... That's all good and well, and although I disagree with you on all those points, none of them even affirm your hypothesis of Christianity, just the need for something to always have been there, which I think is a perfectly reasonable claim. You just for some reason thinks that thing is named God and that he sent his son down to earth to die and then be turned into crackers or w/e, I think it was matter. Also, given infinite time, you get infinite possibilities, and therefore eventually get DNA. Read my post on page 2 about why I believe in the historical and spiritual accuracy of the bible, and it will explain why I chose my set of beliefs. I did not arbitrarily choose God and Christianity over Mohammed and Islam. I did so by considering factual evidence. I'm afraid I don't see where. And also choosing Christianity over Islam isn't the same as explaining why Christianity is valid while NO other religion is. My question: What fact proves the existence of Jesus and the Holy trinity but disproves the existence of Odin and the mountain giants? And also disproves any other god that I could possibly imagine up. + Show Spoiler +because the different books of the bible were written over a 1000+ year period, by over 40 authors, almost all of whom have never met each other. Yet, every single book is consistent with all of the others, and countless Old Testament prophecies come true in the New Testament. This could not be conspired, due to the amount of time and people who wrote the bible without meeting each other. It also could not be chance, for the same reasons. The only explanation is the one offered by the bible: that it is God-breathed. Thus, I believe that every book of the bible is canon: no more, no less. Also, the bible claims that no words should be added or diminished from it. Plasmaball, I never said that current scientific theories coincide with biblical explanations. I said that scientific facts support biblical explanations better than they support scientific theories.
Seeing as how scientific theories are overarching explanations for a multitude of related scientific facts, your statement is necessarily false.
Furthermore, scientific facts also disprove Biblical explanations many times over. Genesis is flat-out falsified (Creation myth, Destruction myth, etc.). Granted, most scholars understand that these are supposed to be taken as allegory now, but how many Biblical stories have to be falsified and then backpedalled *to be meant as allegory* to be overlooked? Science says people can't rise from the dead too. Whoops, sorry Jesus. Science disproves the notions of 900 year old people. It's a scientific fact that Adam and Noah never existed. It's also a scientific fact that snakes don't have a voice box. Sorry devil snake. Science disproves the global flood myth. Science disproves any Young Earth Creationist claims. Now, for every Biblical claim made that's falsified by science, you can dismiss it with "Well that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously!" but then you're just cherry-picking your Bible verses, which makes the whole argument irrelevant.
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Einstein Quote:
I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind
From this quote it appears Einstein was a deist, which is a form of theism.
Kinda irrelevant though D:
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On May 28 2011 13:57 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 28 2011 13:45 D10 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... I like you =) even einstein knew it o.O Einstein wasn't a Christian. He wasn't even a theist. Argument from authority? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Political_and_religious_viewsTo say that he wasant even a theist is pushing it too far.
No it's not, read the quotes I provided, he consistently denounced religion. He was at best a deist and at worst (for your pov at least) a man who consistently denounced faith as something cowards run to when they get scared of death.
And for the love of god don't link that bullshit chain email.
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On May 28 2011 13:57 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 28 2011 13:45 D10 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... I like you =) even einstein knew it o.O Einstein wasn't a Christian. He wasn't even a theist. Argument from authority? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Political_and_religious_viewsTo say that he wasant even a theist is pushing it too far.
Not at all. He was a pantheist/ deist for the better part of his life.
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On May 28 2011 13:53 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:44 koreasilver wrote:God's design is not an obvious accommodation of "infinite love" in the way that you're presenting it. The theology that rises from Judaism and Christianity is anything but the wishy washy good feeling happy ending for everyone new-age bullshit. There is nothing obvious about God in Judeo-Christianity. Even Christ, who you hold to such a high esteem, said so. To say that God is obvious when you quote from Judeo-Christianity is like expressing out loud that one doesn't get it. Kierkegaard
Woe to him therefore, who preaches Christianity without the possibility of offense. Woe to the person who smoothly, flirtatiously, commendingly, convincingly preaches some soft, sweet something which is supposed to be Christianity!
... take away from Christianity the possibility of offense or take away from the forgiveness of sin the battle of an anguished conscience. Then lock the churches, the sooner the better, or turn them into places of amusement which stand open all day long! Merde. Sure by your texts and references, that view must probably be true. I dont hold the canon is such a high regard, my view of god is more based on meditation, life changing spiritual experiences who made me get closer to god, and the gospel according to spiritism. My view, should not be seen, as drawn from there.
This is such a horrible cop-out. If you're going to quote someone saying that one must believe in reincarnation if one believes in Christ as the savior (which is extremely arguable), then you're going to have to factor in the context of the statement. You can't just cherry pick parts you like and when encountered with an opposition that tells you that you're taking things wildly out of context, reply with a "oh, well, that part doesn't matter to me". It is inconsistent and leads to a jumbled mash that makes little sense. Then upon this jumbled bullshit you confuse faith with truisms and faith loses its quality as faith.
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On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me...
From someone who once stood where you did, I've come to find that it's problematic to depend heavily on science to undergird faith. Science is too fickle, really - and far too easy for amateurs to misinterpret in favor of their preferred point. Refer, for example, to the new-agey/mystical interpretations of quantum mechanics...
Besides, you then effectively allow science to dictate the playing field (under an implicit assumption that all which is true must come through its methods). That's not a concession you wish to make - science has severe limitations in scope of application.
Sure, it would be an easier life if one could simply rest comfortably on an 'airtight' set of arguments to support their faith. But life is not so simple - there's always another argument, some nuance you haven't thought of, etc. Look at Descartes' 'proof' of the existence of God which has since been shredded by the successive generations of philosophers.
I hold instead that personal testimony of visible, unmistakable change in character evidenced by love is a much stronger basis.
I may not check this thread again, so pm if you feel like arguing or discussing such things.
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On May 28 2011 13:57 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 28 2011 13:45 D10 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... I like you =) even einstein knew it o.O Einstein wasn't a Christian. He wasn't even a theist. Argument from authority? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Political_and_religious_viewsTo say that he wasant even a theist is pushing it too far.
Ugh you can spread your ignorance about yourselves but leave heroes on science out of this. He wasn't a theist or deist. Learn to get good sources. He used nature itself as a metaphor, claiming that we should treat it with the same reverence as God. And to further his point, Men aren't right only Nature is. Even if a certain person was whatever belief doesn't prove anything.
One more time for the record he was agnostic
source: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_einstein.html
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On May 28 2011 14:01 ClysmiC wrote:Einstein Quote: Show nested quote +I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind From this quote it appears Einstein was a deist, which is a form of theism. Kinda irrelevant though D:
No, it's not. Deism is not a form of theism.
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On May 28 2011 14:01 ClysmiC wrote:Einstein Quote: Show nested quote +I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind From this quote it appears Einstein was a deist, which is a form of theism. Kinda irrelevant though D:
Eh, that quote can be interpreted both ways, as deism and as an atheist who is in love with nature and awe inspired by physics. Spinoza's god existed only philosophically, so it can be seen he just views nature and the laws of physics as his "god" when in reality he just means the driving force of the world and his life.
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I'm going to give a rather unique prospectice on this. A Baha'i perspective. I am a Baha'i and my beliefs might make more sense to some than to others. I don't want to debate my faith though, I don't want to debate whether my faith is true of false. My belief is my own and your faith is yours, redgardless of who or what you believe, pastafarians included.
+ Show Spoiler +According to Bahá'í teachings, human nature is fundamentally spiritual. Although human beings exist on earth in physical bodies, the essential identity of each person is defined by an invisible, rational, and everlasting soul. The soul animates the body and distinguishes human beings from animals. It grows and develops through the individual's relationship with God, as mediated by His Messengers.
The gardens surrounding the Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.Cultivation of one's spiritual side has several benefits. First, the individual increasingly develops those innate qualities that lie at the foundation of human happiness and social progress. Such qualities include faith, courage, love, compassion, trustworthiness, and humility. As these qualities develop, society as a whole advances.
Another effect of spiritual development is alignment with God's will. This growing closer to God prepares the individual for the afterlife. The soul lives on after the body's death, embarking on a spiritual journey towards God through many "worlds," or planes, of existence. Progress on this journey, in traditional terms, is likened to "heaven." If the soul fails to develop, one remains distant from God. This condition of remoteness from God can in some sense be understood as "hell." Thus, heaven and hell are regarded not as literal places but descriptions of one's spiritual progress toward the light of God.
The Shrine containing the remains of the Bab, situated on Mount Carmel, Haifa, Israel.The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--not some physically remote or removed place.
Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."
The analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence. Just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, the physical world provides the matrix for the development of the individual soul. Accordingly, Bahá'ís view life as a sort of workshop, where one can develop and perfect those qualities which will be needed in the next life.
"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."
Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.
This was taken from an article written by the Baha'i community from canada and quotes the founder of the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah. I would have written something myself, but this is presented better than I could have thought
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On May 28 2011 14:01 ClysmiC wrote:Einstein Quote: Show nested quote +I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind From this quote it appears Einstein was a deist, which is a form of theism. Kinda irrelevant though D:
Yes, and if you know anything about Spinoza, then you would know that Spinoza held various criticisms for Judeo-Christianity.
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On May 28 2011 14:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:54 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:49 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:44 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:41 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... That's all good and well, and although I disagree with you on all those points, none of them even affirm your hypothesis of Christianity, just the need for something to always have been there, which I think is a perfectly reasonable claim. You just for some reason thinks that thing is named God and that he sent his son down to earth to die and then be turned into crackers or w/e, I think it was matter. Also, given infinite time, you get infinite possibilities, and therefore eventually get DNA. Read my post on page 2 about why I believe in the historical and spiritual accuracy of the bible, and it will explain why I chose my set of beliefs. I did not arbitrarily choose God and Christianity over Mohammed and Islam. I did so by considering factual evidence. I'm afraid I don't see where. And also choosing Christianity over Islam isn't the same as explaining why Christianity is valid while NO other religion is. My question: What fact proves the existence of Jesus and the Holy trinity but disproves the existence of Odin and the mountain giants? And also disproves any other god that I could possibly imagine up. + Show Spoiler +because the different books of the bible were written over a 1000+ year period, by over 40 authors, almost all of whom have never met each other. Yet, every single book is consistent with all of the others, and countless Old Testament prophecies come true in the New Testament. This could not be conspired, due to the amount of time and people who wrote the bible without meeting each other. It also could not be chance, for the same reasons. The only explanation is the one offered by the bible: that it is God-breathed. Thus, I believe that every book of the bible is canon: no more, no less. Also, the bible claims that no words should be added or diminished from it. Plasmaball, I never said that current scientific theories coincide with biblical explanations. I said that scientific facts support biblical explanations better than they support scientific theories. Seeing as how scientific theories are overarching explanations for a multitude of related scientific facts, your statement is necessarily false. Furthermore, scientific facts also disprove Biblical explanations many times over. Genesis is flat-out falsified (Creation myth, Destruction myth, etc.). Granted, most scholars understand that these are supposed to be taken as allegory now, but how many Biblical stories have to be falsified and then backpedalled *to be meant as allegory* to be overlooked? Science says people can't rise from the dead too. Whoops, sorry Jesus. Science disproves the notions of 900 year old people. It's a scientific fact that Adam and Noah never existed. It's also a scientific fact that snakes don't have a voice box. Sorry devil snake. Science disproves the global flood myth. Science disproves any Young Earth Creationist claims. Now, for every Biblical claim made that's falsified by science, you can dismiss it with "Well that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously!" but then you're just cherry-picking your Bible verses, which makes the whole argument irrelevant.
Some Christians dismiss those as allegory. I don't dismiss any of them. What you fail to understand is the concept of miracles, which is odd, because in a sense, every aspect of science is a miracle.
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On May 28 2011 14:04 masterbreti wrote:I'm going to give a rather unique prospectice on this. A Baha'i perspective. I am a Baha'i and my beliefs might make more sense to some than to others. I don't want to debate my faith though, I don't want to debate whether my faith is true of false. My belief is my own and your faith is yours, redgardless of who or what you believe, pastafarians included. + Show Spoiler +According to Bahá'í teachings, human nature is fundamentally spiritual. Although human beings exist on earth in physical bodies, the essential identity of each person is defined by an invisible, rational, and everlasting soul. The soul animates the body and distinguishes human beings from animals. It grows and develops through the individual's relationship with God, as mediated by His Messengers.
The gardens surrounding the Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.Cultivation of one's spiritual side has several benefits. First, the individual increasingly develops those innate qualities that lie at the foundation of human happiness and social progress. Such qualities include faith, courage, love, compassion, trustworthiness, and humility. As these qualities develop, society as a whole advances.
Another effect of spiritual development is alignment with God's will. This growing closer to God prepares the individual for the afterlife. The soul lives on after the body's death, embarking on a spiritual journey towards God through many "worlds," or planes, of existence. Progress on this journey, in traditional terms, is likened to "heaven." If the soul fails to develop, one remains distant from God. This condition of remoteness from God can in some sense be understood as "hell." Thus, heaven and hell are regarded not as literal places but descriptions of one's spiritual progress toward the light of God.
The Shrine containing the remains of the Bab, situated on Mount Carmel, Haifa, Israel.The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--not some physically remote or removed place.
Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."
The analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence. Just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, the physical world provides the matrix for the development of the individual soul. Accordingly, Bahá'ís view life as a sort of workshop, where one can develop and perfect those qualities which will be needed in the next life.
"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."
Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.
This was taken from an article written by the Baha'i community from canada and quotes the founder of the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah. I would have written something myself, but this is presented better than I could have thought
oh my god. oh my god. another baha'i on team liquid. surely you caught my baha'u'llah quote on the last page!!!!
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On May 28 2011 13:56 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 12:22 D10 wrote:
Simply put, standard jewish-christian religious culture believes we got only 1 shot to make outselves worthy of illumination, heaven, etc...
But what about autists, and other people who suffer from severe mental disabilities and can barely experience the world, why their 1 shot is a horrible experience at life, one where he couldnt even be properly held accountable by his actions, how could this kind of existance be reasonably justified in their system ? well im sure you all heard a few explanations.
But in my opinion, theres just a failure of concept there, if we are really working with a god that has infinite love, inteligence, and power, he would have a very specific reason for someone to be born in such a horrible contition, and in my mind that is punishment.
how difficult would it be for him, to program the universe with a system of kharma, so people can be born, make their mistakes, and then be born again, and pay for them in a way that allows them to keep evolving.
We think we know love, but big religious heads cant fathom how many chances god will really give us, just dont stay away from god to stay away from church, they are not the same,
With churches you either surrender to their house of faith or you are utterly lost and godless, and theres no middle ground, nowdays I feel theres less to gain visiting the church than simply maintaining a health work ethic, morally speaking.
Religion is cultural
Faith is universal
Reencarnation seems absurd at first, but if there is an almighty and powerfull god that wants us to experience material life to achieve illumation Ill take a leap of faith and say that, our daddy would give us some coins to continue playing. No, your logic is missing some scenarios. First of all, our idea of fairness may be incorrect in the eyes of god. But imo, a more interesting idea is that we all are in fact fairly/equally designed to achieve divinity/illumination. Meaning that it's something that's independent of all of our physical, intellectual and emotional qualities in which we are all different. Since we are all completely different the only thing that obviously pops out as something we can all do equally is be ourselves, so in the end it just boils down to doing what you think is the right thing to do in light of who you are. Become the person you want to be you know? That type of stuff.
Sure, I dont disagree with that, we have talent for a reason, everyone should pursue their path to happiness.
I guess the big thing about reincarnation is that you simply cannot believe in it, and not believe in a very complex spiritual society, with many layers and functions.
From the poor guys in the abyss who never managed to get their vibration out of that cesspool suffering in their bubbles of nightmares being drained by even more evil things for life essence until they reencarnate again probably with heavy deformities or maybe even an abortion
while guys who have passed that stage will be wandering to the limbo suffering until they open their heart and have faith that god will help them, so they can get out of there, go to one of the restoration colonies, where reincarnations are organized, and souls spend most of their time.
And theres the upper spheres made more of fluidical energy and thoughts than anything.
Endless worlds across the cosmos, all with anthropomorphic life in different stages of evolution all going thro the same thing, evolution, in all senses, towards a state of pure glory and usefullness for god that I cant even fathom how it is.
This is what I believe in, might sound crazy, but at least its crazy I can believe in.
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It's spelled "Reincarnation". With an "i".
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On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me...
We already have good scientific evidence that humans and apes have common ancestors, which have ancestors in some other early mammals, which have ancestors in reptiles or what not, which have ancestors in amphibians, which have ancestors in fish, which have ancestors in micro-organisms.
So your argument about the chances of human DNA occurring in nature is really just asking what are the chances of there being micro-organisms occurring in nature.
Your entire line of logic is loaded. I mean do you know how many stars there are in the Universe? There's an insane amount of other intelligent species far far away looking at the sky and asking similar question, like "what's the chance of us being here?"
Well, yeah the chances are pretty damn slim, but guess what, if we weren't here we also wouldn't be asking ourselves that question, and some other species on 1 of the trillions of planets that exist would. We could have been living on any other planet and still had tails, and we wouldn't know the difference.
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On May 28 2011 14:05 ClysmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 28 2011 13:54 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:49 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:44 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:41 Oreo7 wrote:On May 28 2011 13:37 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:16 TOloseGT wrote:On May 28 2011 13:10 ClysmiC wrote:On May 28 2011 13:05 Oreo7 wrote:
Religion's much easier to understand when you realize it's fantasy. Every single of aspect of life is much, much harder to understand when you rule out the existence of God. Convincing yourself to believe secular explanations is a greater leap of faith than believing a religious one. You missed something between "harder to understand" and "greater leap of faith". Tell me something, if you believe in God, why aren't you using that God given brain of yours to educate yourself? Funny you should mention that, but I have a 4.5+ GPA and am ranked 4th in my class. I am very educated in the scientific details of life, and in my opinion they only confirm my faith. Science only reinforces the bible. You tell me how random chance can create perfect conditions for life, and also make DNA (which is far more complex than the computer that you are typing on) out of inorganic matter. Then tell me how that inorganic matter was created out of nothing. In order for anything to exist, something has to be eternal. I say that that eternal thing is God. Your idea of science says that there isn't anything eternal. Anyway, back to the DNA thing. If you saw something simple, like a watch, you would never even begin to think that it was made by nature. Yet human beings and other life forms that are millions of times more complex than that watch were? Doesn't add up to me... That's all good and well, and although I disagree with you on all those points, none of them even affirm your hypothesis of Christianity, just the need for something to always have been there, which I think is a perfectly reasonable claim. You just for some reason thinks that thing is named God and that he sent his son down to earth to die and then be turned into crackers or w/e, I think it was matter. Also, given infinite time, you get infinite possibilities, and therefore eventually get DNA. Read my post on page 2 about why I believe in the historical and spiritual accuracy of the bible, and it will explain why I chose my set of beliefs. I did not arbitrarily choose God and Christianity over Mohammed and Islam. I did so by considering factual evidence. I'm afraid I don't see where. And also choosing Christianity over Islam isn't the same as explaining why Christianity is valid while NO other religion is. My question: What fact proves the existence of Jesus and the Holy trinity but disproves the existence of Odin and the mountain giants? And also disproves any other god that I could possibly imagine up. + Show Spoiler +because the different books of the bible were written over a 1000+ year period, by over 40 authors, almost all of whom have never met each other. Yet, every single book is consistent with all of the others, and countless Old Testament prophecies come true in the New Testament. This could not be conspired, due to the amount of time and people who wrote the bible without meeting each other. It also could not be chance, for the same reasons. The only explanation is the one offered by the bible: that it is God-breathed. Thus, I believe that every book of the bible is canon: no more, no less. Also, the bible claims that no words should be added or diminished from it. Plasmaball, I never said that current scientific theories coincide with biblical explanations. I said that scientific facts support biblical explanations better than they support scientific theories. Seeing as how scientific theories are overarching explanations for a multitude of related scientific facts, your statement is necessarily false. Furthermore, scientific facts also disprove Biblical explanations many times over. Genesis is flat-out falsified (Creation myth, Destruction myth, etc.). Granted, most scholars understand that these are supposed to be taken as allegory now, but how many Biblical stories have to be falsified and then backpedalled *to be meant as allegory* to be overlooked? Science says people can't rise from the dead too. Whoops, sorry Jesus. Science disproves the notions of 900 year old people. It's a scientific fact that Adam and Noah never existed. It's also a scientific fact that snakes don't have a voice box. Sorry devil snake. Science disproves the global flood myth. Science disproves any Young Earth Creationist claims. Now, for every Biblical claim made that's falsified by science, you can dismiss it with "Well that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously!" but then you're just cherry-picking your Bible verses, which makes the whole argument irrelevant. Some Christians dismiss those as allegory. I don't dismiss any of them. What you fail to understand is the concept of miracles, which is odd, because in a sense, every aspect of science is a miracle.
No. Science obeys the laws of physics. The Book of Genesis by enlarge defies those laws. Do you believe the earth is 6,000 years old?
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On May 28 2011 14:05 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:01 ClysmiC wrote:Einstein Quote: I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind From this quote it appears Einstein was a deist, which is a form of theism. Kinda irrelevant though D: Yes, and if you know anything about Spinoza, then you would know that Spinoza held various criticisms for Judeo-Christianity.
You're point being? I wasn't tryiing to make an argument with that post. I was just stating my interpretation of Einstein's quote. Then I even stated how irrelevant I think Einstein's view is. Even if Einstein's view perfectly coincided with my own, I would consider it irrelevant, as it is kind of a logical fallacy.
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I'm going to watch GSL, I think the atheists won this one. gg, wp plasma. And D10 and Clysm, I hope you come around before you waste too much time worshiping something that doesn't exist. n_n.
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On May 28 2011 14:06 nozh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 14:04 masterbreti wrote:I'm going to give a rather unique prospectice on this. A Baha'i perspective. I am a Baha'i and my beliefs might make more sense to some than to others. I don't want to debate my faith though, I don't want to debate whether my faith is true of false. My belief is my own and your faith is yours, redgardless of who or what you believe, pastafarians included. + Show Spoiler +According to Bahá'í teachings, human nature is fundamentally spiritual. Although human beings exist on earth in physical bodies, the essential identity of each person is defined by an invisible, rational, and everlasting soul. The soul animates the body and distinguishes human beings from animals. It grows and develops through the individual's relationship with God, as mediated by His Messengers.
The gardens surrounding the Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.Cultivation of one's spiritual side has several benefits. First, the individual increasingly develops those innate qualities that lie at the foundation of human happiness and social progress. Such qualities include faith, courage, love, compassion, trustworthiness, and humility. As these qualities develop, society as a whole advances.
Another effect of spiritual development is alignment with God's will. This growing closer to God prepares the individual for the afterlife. The soul lives on after the body's death, embarking on a spiritual journey towards God through many "worlds," or planes, of existence. Progress on this journey, in traditional terms, is likened to "heaven." If the soul fails to develop, one remains distant from God. This condition of remoteness from God can in some sense be understood as "hell." Thus, heaven and hell are regarded not as literal places but descriptions of one's spiritual progress toward the light of God.
The Shrine containing the remains of the Bab, situated on Mount Carmel, Haifa, Israel.The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--not some physically remote or removed place.
Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."
The analogy to the womb in many ways summarizes the Bahá'í view of earthly existence. Just as the womb constitutes an important place for a person's initial physical development, the physical world provides the matrix for the development of the individual soul. Accordingly, Bahá'ís view life as a sort of workshop, where one can develop and perfect those qualities which will be needed in the next life.
"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."
Beyond this, the exact nature of the afterlife remains a mystery. "The nature of the soul after death can never be described," Bahá'u'lláh writes.
This was taken from an article written by the Baha'i community from canada and quotes the founder of the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah. I would have written something myself, but this is presented better than I could have thought oh my god. oh my god. another baha'i on team liquid. surely you caught my baha'u'llah quote on the last page!!!!
Your religion sounds awesome, I really wish you took a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_According_to_Spiritism I believe you will enjoy it
I take nothing away from this Baha guy, he has written nothing wrong
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EPT
