EPTDustin Browder Interview April 2011 - Page 21
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
Nada in SC2, TvX, makes XnX ball, 1st major attack, fails, reaches for the G button. 2 very similar situation, but the result is 2 very different player mentality. Understand why will make SC2 a much better game. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
On May 02 2011 00:38 mmdmmd wrote: Nada in BW, TvX, makes XnX ball, 1st major attack, fails, goes back to plan next move. Nada in SC2, TvX, makes XnX ball, 1st major attack, fails, reaches for the G button. 2 very similar situation, but the result is 2 very different player mentality. Understand why will make SC2 a much better game. I've been hearing that its not that true recently...but I've only been hearing,so far the TSL hasn't been that way though since its the only one I watch. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On May 01 2011 13:08 Snaphoo wrote: The fact that Ja Rule's records sales have been in steady decline since 2001 does not mean he's a good artist, or superior to Justin Bieber or Rebecca Black. And the fact that Lupe Fiasco sells like gangbusters doesn't mean he's worse than Baha Men. I see your point, though-- SC2 may not be inherently good by virtue of its popularity. (Also, Brood War is way better than the Baha Men). I'm just saying that it has a lot of potential, and is growing eSports in the West. And not just as spectators but as players, it's fun to be part of a community that's approaching something closer to mainstream status than any other RTS game in history. I'm just saying it would be fun for you BW fans to play the game a bit and give it a chance, but if it's truly unwatchable and you dislike SC2 indpeendent of your love of BW, then that's cool. I would just love if BW fans didn't feel the need to seclude themselves from SC2 to prove how much better BW is. You're not convincing anyone, you're just missing out on joining the larger SC community! Why are you even posting on this forum. We don't like the game, you're not going to convince anyone that they actually do like it. I don't find it entertaining to spectate at all. Also it's probably not actually as big as you think it is.... its not anymore mainstream than previous RTS like WC3 in it's peak, that's bullshit. Blizzard doesn't even let you see stats of solely SC2 people on bnet to even check, but i seriously doubt theres much more people playing than what BW/WC3 used to have. Nobody wants to waste time watching or playing a game they don't find fun simply because other people are doing it, or 'wow it'll get better in the future' or saying it's got **POTENTIAL**, prehaps the SC2 fan's favourite buzzword along with calling us elitists for having a preference. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
On May 02 2011 00:45 infinity2k9 wrote: Why are you even posting on this forum. We don't like the game, you're not going to convince anyone that they actually do like it. I don't find it entertaining to spectate at all. I actually didn't read this post by snap...wtf you don't tell people what they should like and tell them to join the larger community. I found it odd though that of all the people,Waxangle found SC2 interesting...or maybe it was just the storyline of that one player. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Edit: Misread Ow yeah, for god sakes people, where the hell do you get the idea that we don't play nor watch SC2?I both play and watch SC2(Albeit not on a daily basis but I catch alot of games). I watched it, I gave it a chance, and ill wait for it to improve if it will ever because right now it is only marginally enjoyable as an E-sport relative to Brood War. Larger community/=fun community imo, with the grand surge of SC2 players come alot of fun players, alot of good players, alot of helpfull players, but the sword is double-edged as we all know. Granted I haven't been here for a long time, (posting, lurker longer)but I know that that the sword is double-edged. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On May 01 2011 20:47 Goldfish wrote: So what do you think of the idea of making SC2 mechanically harder on a higher level of play (Masters + Grand Masters + Tournament play) while still allowing "casuals" to play with things like smart cast, unlimited selection (structures too), etc? i actually don't care much for MBS/automining, i really don't think it has a big effect as most people are saying. 12 unit selection is a pretty big change as is smartcast. but really you should design a modern game with those in mind and then balance it off of that. smartcast + AoE is really not a good game design. design the game so that you can select all your units and 1A, but give people good reasons not to. i would rather have them rethink their current units and spells and adjust all of those. i'd get rid of all the "macro" mechanics, increase the mining rate and make it only one geyser again (because seriously, why would you want a game where a 200/200 army has 80 workers?)... really there's a lot you can do to make the game on the level of BW without making it BW. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On May 01 2011 19:51 ffreakk wrote: Sorry but you either clearly havnt read the replies in the thread, or are deliberately ignoring some of them. There were so many replies to that miserable argument even the Brood War people are asking others to stop repeating the same points all over again. Edit: Comparing yourself with Starcraft 1 wont get you anywhere. Starcraft 1 was a plain old RTS, with little to no international appearances whatsoever. SC2 is claiming itself to be the next generation's leading e-sport, so shouldnt it be compared to the current success, aka Brood War?.. Saying "But im more interesting than Pokemon" doesnt matter squat, we were talking about e-Sport, iirc. (Although to be honest i feel Pokemon is still more exciting a game) This is my 2nd-to-last post on this issue, because I wanted to point out that I did read these replies and refuted them. SC2 at the 8 month mark should NOT be compared to Brood War at the 10+ year mark because no RTS game of repute comes out of the box fully balanced and with optimal playstyles clear. SC2 of course has mistakes and imbalances, just as SC Vanilla had mutalisks, among other things. SC2 is better compared to SC Vanilla because the developers clearly were not trying to simply update BW with graphics; though they built on many of the same mechanics. They were trying to create a new game, which is why comparing a 10+ year old expansion pack to an 8-month old game is so ludicrous. | ||
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Snaphoo
United States614 Posts
On May 02 2011 00:48 BLinD-RawR wrote: I actually didn't read this post by snap...wtf you don't tell people what they should like and tell them to join the larger community. I found it odd though that of all the people,Waxangle found SC2 interesting...or maybe it was just the storyline of that one player. ? I wasn't telling people what to like, just suggesting hating SC2 to prove BW is better doesn't make any sense. I'm done for now, though. BW fans are welcome to their echo chamber. | ||
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qdenser
Canada133 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:27 Snaphoo wrote: ? I wasn't telling people what to like, just suggesting hating SC2 to prove BW is better doesn't make any sense. I'm done for now, though. BW fans are welcome to their echo chamber. 10 trillion posts later you're done. take a breather champ | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On May 02 2011 02:26 Snaphoo wrote: This is my 2nd-to-last post on this issue, because I wanted to point out that I did read these replies and refuted them. SC2 at the 8 month mark should NOT be compared to Brood War at the 10+ year mark because no RTS game of repute comes out of the box fully balanced and with optimal playstyles clear. SC2 of course has mistakes and imbalances, just as SC Vanilla had mutalisks, among other things. SC2 is better compared to SC Vanilla because the developers clearly were not trying to simply update BW with graphics; though they built on many of the same mechanics. They were trying to create a new game, which is why comparing a 10+ year old expansion pack to an 8-month old game is so ludicrous. The passage you quoted already answer your post. There are many things to be said, but i ll just ask you again why are you comparing SC2 with SC1 vanilla? Edit: Things are kept in wraps here in the BW forums, we dont go to SC2 section and broadcast it. So you shouldnt have any problem and i really dont see your reason to persistently advertise ur little toy here. | ||
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ndralcasid
United States524 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On May 02 2011 00:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: I've been hearing that its not that true recently...but I've only been hearing,so far the TSL hasn't been that way though since its the only one I watch. I think it depends from engagements and how you do it. For example, in Boxer v. Sen (TvZ) at the TSL3, Boxer pushed with small groups of tank+marine whole game, (like 4-5 tanks, and 25 or so marines) and traded with Sen as evenly as he could. He kept the Zerg under pressure, with drops, good map control and nicely timed attacks, that he prevented Zerg from getting the huge economic lead which leads to bazillion banelings/lings/mutas rolling into the Terran and obliterating him. Because splash damage is too good in SC2 (clumping mechanic), it is very easy to lose your whole army if you aren't careful. So, if Boxer actually turtled to like 150 food and then sent his whole mega giant 8 tank 60 marine 5 medivac force to attack, the Zerg would have for the most of the time crushed that force with good infestor, ling/bling and muta usage (even Ultras if he was left alone) and Boxer would probably instantly lose there. This is because the Zerg can reinforce super quickly, and the factory units that Terran needs to protect his marines from banelings, take long time to reinforce compared to a ton of larva that the Zerg can stockpile. So instead of boxing the mega big deathball and charging with yelling "ATTACK!!", Boxer did it with small but effective pushes, so even if he lost his army, the game wouldn't be over. It's the same with TvP. Select v. Incontrol in MLG Dallas, SeleCT played amazing, multi prong harrassment, expanding like crazy and through impressive economy management he created so much of an advantage for him that he managed to end the game about when Incontrol got his third. But, if SeleCT turtled instead, and sent his MMM+Viking force, Incontrol would have crushed it (he might have even had Templars at that point!) because of the Colossus numbers that Terran needs to trade with his vikings to survive in the engagements. In the aforementioned game, SeleCT's multitasking and superior unit control overpowered Incontrol, so there wasn't really much he could do as SeleCT played godly. People only see "blob vs blob it's boring" which has some sort of truth into it but it really depends on the players and their style. Boxer had a second small force ready at his natural, so even if he lost his initial attack force, he was able to go pressure once again. Sen always love to drone hard so Boxer's first timing attack coincided with the round of drones Sen was morphing, so he was able to take out the third (he lost his army though) but again, in 1-2 minutes, he was ready to push again. What Sen needed was better scouting (so he wouldn't drone like a madman while Boxer was getting ready for a timing attack) and produce the units needed to thwart off the attack so that he would be able to protect his third. In that case, Boxer wouldn't be that far behind because he'd still have a small force he could threaten Sen with (provided it was an even trade, if his tanks got caught unsieged on creep to ling/bling, it could be different). Boxer kept expanding behind his pushes while not letting Sen have a minute of free breath. ZvP is different, the issue is still trading as even as you can with the Colossus while having the ground army to fight the Stalkers. Zerg needs to capitalize the larvae count he can utilize to reinforce and crush the deathball in waves, but it is not easy because of force fields and colossus being too efficient at killing stuff. So Zerg tries to prevent Toss from taking a third, and trade as even as he can with Toss while expanding and protecting those expansions. Sadly, once Protoss breaks the Zerg army without losing much, the game is over, as for the most of the time Zerg cannot regroup to handle the impending Protoss attack. So ZvP is different, but there are still games that turn up interesting moments so it's not like all bad. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On May 02 2011 04:25 infinity2k9 wrote: Uhh i don't even see the point of that long post... you don't need to explain whole games to people, i'm sure he understood what was happening in the games. Nobody said EVERY game is blob vs blob, so there's no need to keep bringing up examples and making huge posts saying what happens in them. But there certainly is a lot of games where it is blob vs blob and one engagement decides the game. When i've watched random streams of tournaments or just people playing most of the games to me are pretty boring. True and all I'm trying to say by that long post is that players aren't playing correctly when you see the big blob v. blob where one gets crushed and cannot comeback. Because going for the blob route is super risky, it could work when used right (huge mech mega pushes against Zerg with Thor Tank Helion before broodlords) but not usually because you basically leave the game on your opponent's hands as if he manages to hold it off, you're dead. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
The ability to create units instantly anywhere is another example. Positional play is so essential in BW, and yet Warp Gates were introduced that removed the defender's advantage and creates the element of guessing where the plyon is over superior scouting to know when they're moving out etc. In short, I play SC2 with my friends for fun, and sometimes I feel like I'm playing Red Alert 2 in space, where Warp Gates are Chrono Legionnaires, Colossi are Prism Tanks, MULEs are Ore Purifiers, and Sensor Towers are well, Psychic Sensor. Like, it's really clear that they did not study BW at all, even the small things like mineral positions on maps where they would be further away from the worker spawn points - BW doesn't have minerals above the CC at the mains now. I mean is it really that hard to learn from the eSports phenomenon that is the predecessor of your new game? Because some of the things are pretty obvious. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
On May 02 2011 07:08 IntoTheEmo wrote: Was already clear from the beginning that he and the devs had no idea. Example in question? MULEs. Everyone knows economy plays a huge role in Starcraft, yet they design an ability, imbalanced or not, that manipulate it to such an extent. The ability to create units instantly anywhere is another example. Positional play is so essential in BW, and yet Warp Gates were introduced that removed the defender's advantage and creates the element of guessing where the plyon is over superior scouting to know when they're moving out etc. In short, I play SC2 with my friends for fun, and sometimes I feel like I'm playing Red Alert 2 in space, where Warp Gates are Chrono Legionnaires, Colossi are Prism Tanks, MULEs are Ore Purifiers, and Sensor Towers are well, Psychic Sensor. Like, it's really clear that they did not study BW at all, even the small things like mineral positions on maps where they would be further away from the worker spawn points - BW doesn't have minerals above the CC at the mains now. I mean is it really that hard to learn from the eSports phenomenon that is the predecessor of your new game? Because some of the things are pretty obvious. Thank you! People discussing here their favorite Game and favorite players comparing them from BW and SC2. which was not the thread is all about. It's about the Dev of SC2 being oblivious as to what made BW great. If they were constructing SC2 with E-SPORT in mind, they should have studied BW and it's evolution from 200X to 2010. But you can't truly blame Browder though, clueless as he is, 3 years, I think, is not enough to understand BW as a whole let alone study it's constant evolution since even as of today it's still evolving. But then again, this evolution didn't came from Blizzard nor BW's lead designer. It came from the community. The community is the only one who knows what it want. The community should be the one doing the balancing, not Blizzard nor the clueless Browder. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It's like the reaper too before they fixed it. An early game unit that can jump up cliffs completely avoiding ramps, another crucial feature of map design. Ignoring the fact it doesn't even seem to fit Terran as a concept, it's just a poor idea that was clearly going to cause problems. Then you got copying the idea of rocks from BW pro maps and just putting them everywhere, without any reasoning behind it or thought. Or how about making phoenix's 'moving shot' completely what people didn't ask for, with zero skill involved? Or how about when they completely screwed up Ultralisk splash so it hurt units not even near it? All these things seem to suggest to me lack of real thought going into things. I really question what Dbro as the lead designer really added to the game at all, outside of the SP. Unit's like the Thor i expect. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On May 02 2011 01:09 kainzero wrote: i actually don't care much for MBS/automining, i really don't think it has a big effect as most people are saying. 12 unit selection is a pretty big change as is smartcast. but really you should design a modern game with those in mind and then balance it off of that. smartcast + AoE is really not a good game design. design the game so that you can select all your units and 1A, but give people good reasons not to. i would rather have them rethink their current units and spells and adjust all of those. i'd get rid of all the "macro" mechanics, increase the mining rate and make it only one geyser again (because seriously, why would you want a game where a 200/200 army has 80 workers?)... really there's a lot you can do to make the game on the level of BW without making it BW. True that!!! i think i should hang out in BW forum more  posts here are defo more mature <3i personally only enjoy a game/sport where it is balanced to a certain extend. As a zerg i really feel like i am losing interest to sc2 and this interview made me didnt touch the game for 3days now. | ||
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