Dustin Browder Interview April 2011 - Page 19

I believe moreso because the constant patching kills any semblance of stability the players can forge. I remember seeing the changes to zealot build times in each patch being very wishy washy.

Edit:
Patch 16: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

Patch 17: Zealot build time decreased from 38 to 33.

Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.

Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.

ShadeR

Australia7535 Posts

May 01 2011 03:59 GMT

#363

On May 01 2011 12:57 Snaphoo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah. I do. So do the vast numbers of eSports fans watching GSL instead of Proleague and playing SC2 instead of iCCup.

Does not make Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black good musicians.

erin[go]bragh

United States815 Posts

May 01 2011 03:59 GMT

#364

More SC2 people who don't watch BW but act like they do.

I wouldn't give a shit if it were Warcraft 6 or Command and Conquer 75, but it isn't. It's StarCraft2. And everything about Broodwar that made it great has been either watered down or removed entirely.

I don't think SC2 is a bad game. In fact, I think its a great game for any RTS fan. Broodwar is simply too mechanically demanding for casual gamers, and SC2 is a good answer to that.

That does not, however, mean that the game isn't boring as shit to watch. You know why Broodwar is "dead" in the west, and everyone is playing SC2? Because it's fucking easy, and tons of money has been pumped into it.

It just pains me to see such a bad spectator game lead the way for esports. Had Broodwar gotten this kind of exposure, who knows what could have happened.

But you know, live and let live. If someones idea of an epic game is commentators screaming "oh my god! he put his zealots in front of his stalkers! What a good player!" then thats their perogitive. I'll just continue staying up til 5am to watch the big boys clash.

Edit: Sorry for the cussin'.

Snaphoo

United States614 Posts

May 01 2011 04:00 GMT

#365

Yep. The game is less than a year old, and patches are definitely moving around. But that being said, units and compositions that haven't been touched by patches are constantly being used for new uses-- e.g. 3 gate expo, Siege expand, Phoenix/Colossus, etc.

Snaphoo

United States614 Posts

May 01 2011 04:08 GMT

#366

On May 01 2011 12:59 ShadeR wrote:

Show nested quote +

Does not make Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black good musicians.

The fact that Ja Rule's records sales have been in steady decline since 2001 does not mean he's a good artist, or superior to Justin Bieber or Rebecca Black.

And the fact that Lupe Fiasco sells like gangbusters doesn't mean he's worse than Baha Men.

I see your point, though-- SC2 may not be inherently good by virtue of its popularity. (Also, Brood War is way better than the Baha Men). I'm just saying that it has a lot of potential, and is growing eSports in the West. And not just as spectators but as players, it's fun to be part of a community that's approaching something closer to mainstream status than any other RTS game in history.

I'm just saying it would be fun for you BW fans to play the game a bit and give it a chance, but if it's truly unwatchable and you dislike SC2 indpeendent of your love of BW, then that's cool. I would just love if BW fans didn't feel the need to seclude themselves from SC2 to prove how much better BW is. You're not convincing anyone, you're just missing out on joining the larger SC community!

Snaphoo

United States614 Posts

May 01 2011 04:17 GMT

#367

On May 01 2011 12:59 erin[go]bragh wrote:
More SC2 people who don't watch BW but act like they do.

Edit: Sorry for the cussin'.

If you truly dislike SC2 outside of the context of comparing it to BW then I can respect that, and haha I would agree the tip-top players in BW have unsurpassed APM. That being said, that's one of the things I like about SC2-- players with creative play can overcome players with superior APM because the game is still so undiscovered at this point.

Some call it chaos, I call it undiscovered metagame

Harem

United States11393 Posts

May 01 2011 04:27 GMT

#368

On May 01 2011 12:40 Snaphoo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Do tell, what dramatic playstyle shifts in the Brood War metagame have occurred between February 2011 and April 2011?

Note that Ver never touched on zvz/zvp but since he made this post, there have been even more stuff ie 6hat4base zvp.

On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:
SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.

For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):

TvZ-
Safe 14cc on 2 player maps
a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!)
Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities
A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot)
7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it)
4 rax -> triple port wraith
2 rax acad allins
3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex)
2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra)
Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions)
12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame
Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options)
Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)

TvP- Many different 3 base timings
Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD
12 Nexus variations and emphasis
1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus
New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters
Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)

+ Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +

(midas jaedong odd eye)

(hero midas)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36902_HoGiL_vs_Midas
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/34773_Flash_vs_type-b
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/30600_Flash_vs_hero
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/34843_Flash_vs_Jaedong

As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.

Snipinpanda

United States1227 Posts

May 01 2011 04:48 GMT

#369

On May 01 2011 13:08 Snaphoo wrote:

Show nested quote +

What's stopping from SC2 people to try BW either?

SC2 is kinda fun to play occasionally, but from a watchability point of view, it's definitely a lot worse than BW. I mean sure, you could enjoy both, but if you feel one is superior than the other, there's not a lot of incentive to play/watch the other one. It's not secluding from the other side because we're spiteful or whatever.

After all, after you've eaten caviar, you're not really willing to eat trash, even if the trash is really shiny and cool-looking.

hmmm...

632 Posts

May 01 2011 05:46 GMT

#370

On May 01 2011 13:08 Snaphoo wrote:

Show nested quote +

you write as if you're assuming people here have never played or watched sc2.
most of us have already played sc2 and watched sc2. how else would we know sc2 is just a blob vs blob fest? i watched a lot of sc2 at first because of the novelty but once the novelty died off, i realized how inferior this game is to BW.

you probably watched the recent match in which boxer used cloaked ghosts to emp right? well people were going ape-shit crazy saying omfg that's the best game ever and even moletrap was going crazy.

well basically, that game was just this: both players build up a giant force without really doing anything to each other because they're too scared, since one bad blob vs blob battle is GG in sc2. so two blobs walk back and forth until boxer emps all the opponents sentries (precisely because they're all in a blob formation) then boxer a-moves into the opponents blob and wins. that's it. GG indeed....ahem.

the fact that sc2 guys go ape-shit crazy over such a game just goes to show the low standards of the quality of sc2 pro matches. like, how boring must most sc2 games be for people to recommend that game?

well to each his/her own but don't think we haven't given sc2 a shot. most of us have, and have been disappointed.

maybenexttime

Poland5811 Posts

May 01 2011 05:56 GMT

#371

On May 01 2011 12:50 Snaphoo wrote:
Cool.

Since February in SC2:

Siege tank expands in TvP
Roach-ling early pressure timing to destroy 3 gate expand while taking 3rd ZvP
Roach burrow timing to negate sentries in ZvP
Thor/Banshee transitions in lategame in TvP
Viable Battlecruiser lategame in TvT
6 rax all-ins supportable on 1 base TvX
Colossus + Phoenix midgame TvP destroying MMM with Vikings
Double Forge timings PvT
Infestor/Ling/Ultralisk Zerg composition (total revolution from ling/bling/muta of past 6 months)
3 gate expands becoming mainstream PvT
2 Gate Stargate expand PvZ

Like half of those things have been used even in beta... T_____T

Snaphoo

United States614 Posts

May 01 2011 07:00 GMT

#372

None in optimized form, except maybe Thor/Banshee. The roach-ling-into-3rd is also newly optimized with Losira. All of those have been used in group stages or later in a major tournament; prior to Feb I don't think any of them were used with any regularity-- if I'm wrong please let me know though; have you seen any of those developments used in high-level play regularly prior to February?

maybenexttime

Poland5811 Posts

May 01 2011 07:15 GMT

#373

Seriously, you could say "not in the optimized form" for every innovation Ver listed, too.

I'm pretty sure Siege Expand has been there since beta, same for Thor/Banshee and BCs in TvT. It's just that they were forgotten because of various patch changes and gameplay shifts and are now being recycled. Not sure about other MUs, because I avoid anything that has P in it and doesn't at least have T at the same time.

The point isn't that there aren't more overall shifts in gameplay in BW, but rather that there are still many, as well as that BW evolves at least as fast as SC2 if you disregard the patch changes (that happens due to several factors, mainly the fact that major patch changes do not allow the "metagame" to stabilize and that BW still has way more talented RTS players pushing the boundries).

kainzero

United States5211 Posts

May 01 2011 07:46 GMT

#374

why is a metagame shift seen as a good thing?

good games are good games regardless.
the "metagame" for marvel vs capcom 2 hardly changed for the last 4 years but big, hyped matches were still big hyped matches.

besides, i like bw's sharp and subtle refinements compared to sc2's "lol what crazy strategy will he go for this time!" kind of viewpoint.

ffreakk

Singapore2155 Posts

May 01 2011 07:52 GMT

#375

On May 01 2011 14:46 hmmm... wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 01 2011 13:08 Snaphoo wrote:

On May 01 2011 12:59 ShadeR wrote:

On May 01 2011 12:57 Snaphoo wrote:

On May 01 2011 12:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:

uhhh you do realize that SC2 is a new game that has constant metagame shifts because its being discovered.

Yeah. I do. So do the vast numbers of eSports fans watching GSL instead of Proleague and playing SC2 instead of iCCup.

Does not make Justin Beiber or Rebecca Black good musicians.

This.. I hardly think it possible that the SC:BW fans wouldnt have jumped onto SC2 as soon as they can.. The fact that we are here now dissing the game only shows that this many people (among many others) have been severely disappointed.

MC vs Thorzain or the Boxer game on Shakuras were the best games in SC2, according to many.. The first game involve a few skirmishes, followed by a Toss mistake which handed Terran the game, followed by T's mistake that handed it back. Boxer game on Shakuras is just >.< 1 good EMP = gg.

Treemonkeys

United States2082 Posts

May 01 2011 08:17 GMT

#376

On May 01 2011 14:46 hmmm... wrote:
well basically, that game was just this: both players build up a giant force without really doing anything to each other because they're too scared, since one bad blob vs blob battle is GG in sc2. so two blobs walk back and forth until boxer emps all the opponents sentries (precisely because they're all in a blob formation) then boxer a-moves into the opponents blob and wins. that's it. GG indeed....ahem.

I'm sorry but this is just plain ridiculous. Yes I know that SC2 is nowhere near the level of brood war with shit happening all over the map, but you are really exaggerating it, really.

In that game the protoss tried to kill boxer early and boxer was trying to drop several times, you're acting like it was a NR 20 game. Oh and the "a-move into the opponents blob" was boxer spotting, scanning, and sniping the observer (the casters missed that part) and then immediately sending in the cloaked ghosts to emp the sentries and then move in with the rest of the army. The irony of your point is that if boxer had actually tried to a-move into that protoss army he would have lost miserably. Once again not the same action that you see in BW, but it's different and it still can be existing to watch.

I think a lot of the death balls is because the game hasn't been figured out yet and people are always going to start off abusing the easy to execute strategies. Zerg is already in a situation where they need to try more multitasking because the death ball just doesn't work for them, I just hope Blizzard doesn't patch the game too much to prevent this, I am happy to see that the upcoming patch does not "fix" the problems for zerg.

I came into this thread because I was feeling nostalgic and depressed that SC2 isn't as good as BW but after reading a lot of the comments I actually feel better about SC2 and where it is hopefully going. The thing is most if not all the amazing shit in BW that is talked about in this thread did not exist during the first year of it's release, SC2 may have the same name but it is a completely different game and has to be learned from the ground up. The expansions will likely add more depth as well, imagine SC1 without brood war, no lurkers, no corsairs, no DTs, and that first year of the meta game. That is a much more fair comparison than comparing a year of SC2 to 10-15 years of highly developed BW play.

Also on the easier interface, I believe this is blown way out of proportion or at least looked at the wrong way. Less time macroing and building shit actually means more possibility of multitasking battles around the map. The real question is will SC2's design be able to reward or punish people who do this instead of balling up their army? People don't do it now because they don't have to - BUT the hope is that some players will starting doing it more and will dominate forcing the game to evolve in that direction, which is actually what happened with BW. Because even the so called "difficult" interface in BW is only as difficult as your opponents makes it to be.

How long was it until there was even a pro scene for BW? 2-3 years I think? It didn't become amazing to watch over night. It would be a fun little "experiment" to compare the very first WCG games to SC2, I don't know if those are even recorded anywhere.

Daozzt

United States1263 Posts

May 01 2011 08:44 GMT

#377

On May 01 2011 17:17 Treemonkeys wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

I watched that Boxer game live when it happened. It was 100% ball vs ball. Boxer walked in and emp'd the P's ball and the P was fucked. Boxer just a-moved in and claimed the win--the nuke was just adding insult to injury, as it didn't even do anything. It was suspenseful though, I'll give it that.

BW was pretty much 10 years of amazing shit happening because people had to figure out how to play RTS, so new things were being discovered every year. In 2000, Boxer doing basic dropship micro off 1 base was amazing.

Also, SC2 had 12 years to build from BW. They should have gotten it right on the first try, not give a half assed release and hope to fix it with expansions. The new expansions will probably change the game, but I doubt it will give SC2 more "depth" than it already has.

rabidch

United States20289 Posts

May 01 2011 08:46 GMT

#378

im not going to read through this gigantic thread,
but blizzard should hire* more high skill players or get some designers that really understand brood war...

and whats people comparing the scenes between SC1 and SC2 and expecting something similar?
two entirely different contexts, one without an esports scene and one that had an esports scene (that the game was designed to be for and had many players that understood the similar aspects about the gameplay), not to mention the fact there was a meaningful beta. stop bringing this up like its a concretely valid point.

personally, i prefer to wait on posting about this until the expansion is actually out, when blizzard gets a much better chance at expanding gameplay than just balance patches (which i really think they should stop tinkering with so much). my only real gripes with the game is the one dimensionality of roaches/marauders/immortals and the not so entertaining collision sizes

* im retarded

in fact i read one of browder's interviews saying he didnt have a favorite brood war progamer. to me this really signifies something about the possible lack of interest/real knowledge in brood war

Snaphoo

United States614 Posts

May 01 2011 08:55 GMT

#379

On May 01 2011 17:17 Treemonkeys wrote:

Show nested quote +

Very well-reasoned, and your last point is the one no Brood War fan has answerd yet-- what did games in 1999 look like? No one knew how to play the game yet, so what were considered "epic games" are trash compared to high level play in today's games. Hell, arguably Brood War shouldn't even be compared to SC2 until Heart of the Swarm is out-- an expansion pack with new units to balance out the game was a key reason StarCraft took off.

SC2 is "built like" BW and shares some similarities, but major gameplay and understanding of the game are missing and developing all the time. A BW player like Junwi, who had a far more illustrious career than "failed" 2v2 player NesTea isn't fit to shine NesTea's shoes in SC2. It's a whole new world out there.

Legatus Lanius

2135 Posts

May 01 2011 09:04 GMT

#380

actually it has been responded to many times. the premise that you can compare a year old brood war to a year old sc2 is fundamentally wrong

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Dustin Browder Interview April 2011 - Page 19

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