This is the live report thread for the GSL ro16 that's going on right now. As I'm watching, the first series is AWFUL, which atrocious play from both sides. How do the SC2 fans react?
On April 30 2011 14:33 tree.hugger wrote: Why is stupid passivity worthy of nerd chills? Why is Killer called "Killer" if he doesn't want to kill his opponent when he has the advantage?
On April 30 2011 14:33 Ribbon wrote: Nice EMP, and Clide takes out the base base with 40 minerals left in it.
Way to go, Clide. You're a hero.
DTs!
On April 30 2011 14:34 kyophan wrote: One of the collosus was hitting a building in the main the whole battle.
On April 30 2011 14:35 Ribbon wrote: DTs in by army.
Better scan Killer's third.
Clide is making up for impressing me earlier.
On April 30 2011 14:35 aebriol wrote: Clide falling apart, he landed his vikings and suicided them before the last colossus died ...
On April 30 2011 14:36 Kettchup wrote: SangHo with some terrible battle control, but Clide is handing it to him anyway.
On April 30 2011 14:37 GDbushido wrote: still no raven for clide.
this really is one of the sloppiest code s games ive ever seen, im not trolling just kind of amazed.
On April 30 2011 14:38 ffadicted wrote: omg killed is the most passive protoss I have ever seen.... this isn't the way to play toss braaaah
On April 30 2011 14:41 tree.hugger wrote: GO KILL HIM.
MY GOD JUST KILL HIM.
On April 30 2011 14:42 ffadicted wrote: Am I watching Code C? <_<
On April 30 2011 14:42 Goibon wrote: He can't win this... can he?
although it's been a very close crap game
not like anyone has actually played good in this
On April 30 2011 14:42 uSnAmplified wrote: Are you serious if sangho loses im going to die laughing at this point this game has been so bad
On April 30 2011 14:43 Ribbon wrote: Vikings attack Killer's Colossus, and Killer has no stalkers. So killer runs the Colossus to the LEFT while warping in stalkers to the RIGHT.
On April 30 2011 14:44 Goibon wrote: WOW
Killer GGs the worst epic TvP i've ever seen
up there with the Inca Rain game for all the wrong reasons
On April 30 2011 14:44 babylon wrote: Glad Clide won this one, but that was a shitty, sloppy game.
On April 30 2011 14:46 tree.hugger wrote: Some days, I watch Sc2, and I really can see it becoming exciting, becoming a fun game to watch and support. After MC vs ThorZaIN, for example, I was really excited, because here, at last was a series of games that really had depth to them.
And then I watch games like that one, and it just completely collapses any faith I had in Sc2 ever becoming worthy of sustained attention.
On April 30 2011 14:44 Rampager wrote: What the fuck.
First inca vs rain, now this. Stop it.
lol it wasn't nearly as bad as Inca v Rain...
Inca Rain felt like it was one long fuckup. This game felt like it was fuckup after fuckup. Trainwreck entertaining for the whole back half.
I have them both neck in neck honestly, different games but similarly amazing for the wrong reasons.
On April 30 2011 14:48 NoobSh1t wrote: That game was soooooooo sloppy >.>
Clide plays well, than he makes mistake and killer gets advantage, then killer messes up and clide wins? wtf? Thorzain vs MC g4 still greatest TvP of all time.
On April 30 2011 14:48 SolidZeal wrote: I find it really frustrating when player throw away games in stupid ways like killer did. why get double forge and stop upgrading? edit: also his army micro wasn't great except his storms.
ughhhh Killer why :<
He was even chronoboosting the forges. Maybe he missed the integral step of actually starting an upgrade in them.
And that's only set 1! And these are former BW pros!
So the idea that SC2 players are playing at a high level because of BW experience doesn't hold a lot of water for me.
Lol so many sc2 arguments are made supported by only one or two games.
Specially the ones claiming one game is exciting to watch... those are the most hilarious.
"omg there is a mild amount of action in the game and a mild amount of micro... its not obvious who will win and it for once in this one battle is sort of coming down to simple execution rather than primarily rock paper scissors... sc2 must be good!! now I have proof!... now i gotta rush online and post about this to try to make those BW elitists hate me less!!"
Viewers can be so dumb.. they often get confused and think they are enjoying a game when really they are just enjoying the hype. Gorgeous micro.. mechanics and strategy are lost to them.
ya and as for the game u mentioned.. im sorry u were able to dig deep enough to find 2 ppl playing like shit. Doesnt mean the skill ceiling is high.. all it means is that sangho had to pee the whole match
On April 30 2011 00:52 J1.au wrote: Too much SC2 talk in a Brood War forum thread...
Really? I love when the masses of SC2 fanboys come here trying to spout off like they have some deep understanding of BW and use it as a base for all these preposterous statements on SC2's future while completely ignoring glaring facts and refusing to so much as address them. Its truly entertaining.
While I am fairly entertained by the persistence of SC2 fans, their preposterous arguments and their efforts to promote SC2 on the BW forum. Repeating the same weak arguments, that I have read in other thread, a hundred times will never convince us BW fans.
I had high hope on SC2. I followed news, announcements, and forums since beta. However, I didn't even buy the game after watching my friends play at their house. It is a huge let down. And I give up my last hope for SC's future ever since they make changes that actually limit strategic options (Completely Remove BBS; Remove Void Rays speed that make them obsolete, etc). WC3 was suffered by this and I can see the same fate to SC2 if that's the direction they are heading.
Products cater to the market. Given the trend of today's gaming development, it is not hard to envision the games and players are basically getting more one dimensional and casual. The "Nahtzee" video on page 13 summarize this pretty well.
On April 30 2011 15:25 Ribbon wrote: I think the best argument in favor of SC2's potential is, ironically, a really awful series.
[...]
And that's only set 1! And these are former BW pros!
So the idea that SC2 players are playing at a high level because of BW experience doesn't hold a lot of water for me.
Down-playing BW pros as an arguments for SC2's potential is actually much worse than the arguments of sub-optimal play and the 2 expansion packs. No, I do not see the connection between SC2's potential and "how badly the wash-up BW legends and unsuccessful BW pros do in SC2".
As for sub-optimal play and 2 expansion packs, there will be refinements and there is hope. I do not foresee how perfecting the executions with the current game and adding new units can solve the fundamental design and gameplay problems without changing the philosophy of pleasing the mass. Some of the more critical problems are: similar mechanics for most units (Stop-and-shoot, acceleration/deceleration), similar general purpose units (Roach/Marauder/Immortal/Thor/Corruptor), Terrible-terrible-damage (short battles), limited strategic options (rock-paper-scissors type), and micro-hindering skills.
SC2 fans. Please stop posting without any new insights.
On April 29 2011 02:13 infinity2k9 wrote: Also Ribbon why are you even trying to compare to a game from 2001, how many fucking times does it need to be said that BW experience DIRECTLY helps SC2 players.
No it really doesn't. They're different games, you know. Warcraft 3 players were able to transfer to SC2 with a decent bit of success, and Warcraft 3 has only a passing resemblance at best to economy-based RTSes like SC/SC2.
people are going into the game with immediate knowledge of RTS fundamentals and great mechanics. This is the most irritating fallacy that people on this forum constantly repeat. Stop comparing it to back then, it's completely stupid. You admit people didn't even understand the concept of a 'macro' game back then, then you compare it to SC2 today, it's retarded. Then you got xbankx spawing a whole page of shit about build orders when the only point was that BW back then didn't even have this concept properly.
The 'give it time' shit is seriously the most annoying thing on here.
Calm down, bro.
Next to nothing from BW transfers directly to SC2 in any meaningful way. If it did, then SC2 would be almost exactly like BW, and you wouldn't be complaining. All the micro is different. The macro is different. It's WILDLY different, in fact. The economy management is entirely different, and thus nothing from BW follows naturally.
I mean, for god's sake, MC is the best Protoss in the world and I caught him putting his zealots in the back and clumping his Templar, so don't tell me people are playing SC2 at the highest levels.
What, and give me a specific example did BW players not know in 2001 that they can apply directly to SC2?
On April 30 2011 23:55 aimaimaim wrote: The micro and macro became easy from BW to SC2 .. wtf are you talking about???
If you mean game control features such as MBS, infinite-unit control group, automine, UI, etc, these are already discussed to death and I left those out of my post because they are no way changeable. Do you think Blizzard will remove MBS?
I am taking one level down and listing what Blizzard can do with the changeable game features.Don't you think by changing unit mechanics, more unit varieties (non-general purpose), and having skills more micro-able by opponents would promote more unit interactions and make micro and macro "harder"?
On May 01 2011 02:01 StimedPylon wrote: This thread in a nutshell:
no, no, this thread in a nutshell is that some people play games because of the challenge of linking fast thinking in their brain to fast physical actions of their hands on the keyboard and mouse. but, some other people like shiny graphics
On April 30 2011 23:55 aimaimaim wrote: The micro and macro became easy from BW to SC2 .. wtf are you talking about???
If you mean game control features such as MBS, infinite-unit control group, automine, UI, etc, these are already discussed to death and I left those out of my post because they are no way changeable. Do you think Blizzard will remove MBS?
I am taking one level down and listing what Blizzard can do with the changeable game features.Don't you think by changing unit mechanics, more unit varieties (non-general purpose), and having skills more micro-able by opponents would promote more unit interactions and make micro and macro "harder"?
They wont change it. Because they want a noob friendly game. They encourage ball vs ball play. If you want to make it harder, change it to be like BW UI. Hard, Unforgiving, Dumb.
The main thing I've noticed is that SC2 players are lazier than BW players. When BW is being played even in the early stage (Yes I am talking about Giyom's era), I can see that how determined these players are but in SC2, I just can't see the same fire in people's eyes. When I see BW being played on TV, I can see the preparation put into ONE game but in SC2, there is just SOMETHING missing but I just can't put my fingers on it.
On April 29 2011 14:29 Snaphoo wrote:That's just one example... SC2 is extremely entertaining
[citation needed]
Really there's no point in discussion when there's people like you and Ribbon just repeating the same shit after it's been refuted. Everything meaningful has already been said anyway.
On April 29 2011 14:29 Snaphoo wrote:That's just one example... SC2 is extremely entertaining
[citation needed]
Really there's no point in discussion when there's people like you and Ribbon just repeating the same shit after it's been refuted. Everything meaningful has already been said anyway.
What that I have said has been refuted?
I realize this is in a BW thread, but this interview with Dustin Browder talks about SC2 without a hint of Brood War; it's not that SC2 fans are trolling BW forums.
I think there is one argument that I think above all underscores why SC2 is important:
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game.
It's no longer featured at WCG, outside of Korea it's pretty much been replaced by SC2, and hearing BW fans sneer at SC2 is annoying because they're more interested in proving BW is a "better" game than SC2. I don't know if you're right, but I do know that outside of Korea, Brood War is a relic with no major tournaments, no growth base, and no real mechanism for newbies to get involved. In part because of elitist old-guard fans like yourself, but also because it's just not as dynamic a game anymore. It's been figured out, at least to a much greater degree than SC2. The hostility you show towards SC2 fans underscores why the Brood War fanbase has shrunk significantly, among other reasons.
There's enormous potential for SC2, and it's less than a year old and already produced many epic series and games. Match-ups are changing, new pros are emerging all the time, and many, many new playstyles are emerging all the time. You sneer at people giving individual examples of how awesome SC2 is, but let me ask-- what is the threshhold for proving it's an awesome game? Five televised games? Twenty? Seven hundred?
I'm not trying to "convince" BW fans of anything; who cares if you think your game is better than SC2-- SC2 is here to stay, and it doesn't need Brood War fans to continue to grow in popularity. Perhaps that is what earns so much of your ire.
All I'm saying is to give SC2 a chance and perhaps consider enjoying it, because it is the pinnacle and future of eSports right now, and Brood War (while honorable and impressive) is the past. Touting the macro of a Flash/Jaedong or talking about Proleague matches from 2005 isn't going to change that.
NASL, MLG, IGN Proleague, Dreamhack... these are all amazing Western tournaments with unprecedented prize purses which are driving the growth of eSports, in large part around SC2. Instead of hating on the sequel to your beloved BW, why not embrace the good it has done for eSports and enjoy as it continues to mature and develop? I promise you'll be much happier, and find that us SC2 fans aren't so bad after all.
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game
shows how little you know,please stop posting here you are hurting your credibility.
I would defend SC2 myself but there has to be new evidence before saying spouting same old shit and hoping to get to people who don't like it is absolutely pointless.
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game
shows how little you know,please stop posting here you are hurting your credibility.
I would defend SC2 myself but there has to be new evidence before saying spouting same old shit and hoping to get to people who don't like it is absolutely pointless.
Do tell, what dramatic playstyle shifts in the Brood War metagame have occurred between February 2011 and April 2011?
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game
shows how little you know,please stop posting here you are hurting your credibility.
I would defend SC2 myself but there has to be new evidence before saying spouting same old shit and hoping to get to people who don't like it is absolutely pointless.
Do tell, what dramatic playstyle shifts in the Brood War metagame have occurred between February 2011 and April 2011?
queens being the answer to Terran mech being the biggest.
breaking of ZvZ past lair tech by great who is the master of Hive tech ZvZ.
there are others but I'll leave that to someone who watched every game for the last couple of months.
oh and I forgot to mention Neo +1 speedlot timing in PvZ by Bisu.
Siege tank expands in TvP Roach-ling early pressure timing to destroy 3 gate expand while taking 3rd ZvP Roach burrow timing to negate sentries in ZvP Thor/Banshee transitions in lategame in TvP Viable Battlecruiser lategame in TvT 6 rax all-ins supportable on 1 base TvX Colossus + Phoenix midgame TvP destroying MMM with Vikings Double Forge timings PvT Infestor/Ling/Ultralisk Zerg composition (total revolution from ling/bling/muta of past 6 months) 3 gate expands becoming mainstream PvT 2 Gate Stargate expand PvZ
On April 29 2011 14:29 Snaphoo wrote:That's just one example... SC2 is extremely entertaining
[citation needed]
Really there's no point in discussion when there's people like you and Ribbon just repeating the same shit after it's been refuted. Everything meaningful has already been said anyway.
What that I have said has been refuted?
I realize this is in a BW thread, but this interview with Dustin Browder talks about SC2 without a hint of Brood War; it's not that SC2 fans are trolling BW forums.
I think there is one argument that I think above all underscores why SC2 is important:
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
.
This you clearly did not play bw or even follow the current scene for you to make that kind of statement as bw did not stop growing in terms of new play from the game changing use of queens in tvz to destroy mech and from bio to mech tech switch during tvz it revolutionize tvz like never before and yet you say there is no change . Well unlike sc2 everytime some one find challenges in the game they cant handle they call blizzard and whine like a kid who drop his milk on the floor and cries so blizzard can patch the game and make it more less IMBA too bad bw is not catered for the masses like you have stated and sc2 is so boring let me tell you the graphics are so ugly for spectators to watch that sc2 only is just suger coated with colourful graphics for attraction but the game has no substance .
Seriously if i wanted to play something colourful and not having to micro and macro i could have just go play warcraft 3 and they dare label starcraft 2 when the game lacks of units that are microable or even has harassment functions that are actually devastating .They might as well call it warcraft 2 in space .No barracks before supply depot ? How freaking boring terran has become in sc2 unlike in bw we can build a proxy racks and even do some thing cheesy in game . You call them gosus and i call them noob what they can do anyone with a god damn 100 apm also can do the same micro and unlike bw for you to pull of something like the pro's requires seriously hand speed and good cordination plus apm to keep it up and that's what distinguish a normal person between a pro .
Every single game i see in sc2 leads to blob vs blob battles are these interesting to the viewers ? probably you sc2 fanatics but not me at first these game when they had reapers who were quite the harassment unit they made it interesting but no the cry of imba made blizzard push the red button and nerf the damn unit so what kind of interesting games are left for sc2 ? 1 base macro and than blob vs blob battle ? You call that interesting lol any given day a bw game is obviously better than sc2 .
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
But it's an old game
shows how little you know,please stop posting here you are hurting your credibility.
I would defend SC2 myself but there has to be new evidence before saying spouting same old shit and hoping to get to people who don't like it is absolutely pointless.
Do tell, what dramatic playstyle shifts in the Brood War metagame have occurred between February 2011 and April 2011?
queens being the answer to Terran mech being the biggest.
breaking of ZvZ past lair tech by great who is the master of Hive tech ZvZ.
there are others but I'll leave that to someone who watched every game for the last couple of months.
oh and I forgot to mention Neo +1 speedlot timing in PvZ by Bisu.
+1 Speedlot by Bisu was definitely the only one I had in mind, although I thought he was doing that since December? In either case, definitely a good example. Queens v. Terran Mech I have no idea, but I'll take your word for it; I watch very little BW unless it's something momentous like a group with Jaedong/Flash/Sea/Bisu.
Siege tank expands in TvP Roach-ling early pressure timing to destroy 3 gate expand while taking 3rd ZvP Roach burrow timing to negate sentries in ZvP Thor/Banshee transitions in lategame in TvP Viable Battlecruiser lategame in TvT 6 rax all-ins supportable on 1 base TvX Colossus + Phoenix midgame TvP destroying MMM with Vikings Double Forge timings PvT Infestor/Ling/Ultralisk Zerg composition (total revolution from ling/bling/muta of past 6 months) 3 gate expands becoming mainstream PvT 2 Gate Stargate expand PvZ
uhhh you do realize that SC2 is a new game that has constant metagame shifts because its being discovered.
On April 29 2011 14:29 Snaphoo wrote:That's just one example... SC2 is extremely entertaining
[citation needed]
Really there's no point in discussion when there's people like you and Ribbon just repeating the same shit after it's been refuted. Everything meaningful has already been said anyway.
What that I have said has been refuted?
I realize this is in a BW thread, but this interview with Dustin Browder talks about SC2 without a hint of Brood War; it's not that SC2 fans are trolling BW forums.
I think there is one argument that I think above all underscores why SC2 is important:
Brood War is stale. It is 13 years old, and virtually every match-up has been played to death. There are no dramatic new playstyles, no month-by-month shifts in the metagame, and very little opportunity for players with creative play to make a name for themselves. Maps are changing all the time which is cool, and the gosus at the top are undeniably amazing to watch.
.
This you clearly did not play bw or even follow the current scene for you to make that kind of statement as bw did not stop growing in terms of new play from the game changing use of queens in tvz to destroy mech and from bio to mech tech switch during tvz it revolutionize tvz like never before and yet you say there is no change . Well unlike sc2 everytime some one find challenges in the game they cant handle they call blizzard and whine like a kid who drop his milk on the floor and cries so blizzard can patch the game and make it more less IMBA too bad bw is not catered for the masses like you have stated and sc2 is so boring let me tell you the graphics are so ugly for spectators to watch that sc2 only is just suger coated with colourful graphics for attraction but the game has no substance .
Seriously if i wanted to play something colourful and not having to micro and macro i could have just go play warcraft 3 and they dare label starcraft 2 when the game lacks of units that are microable or even has harassment functions that are actually devastating .They might as well call it warcraft 2 in space .No barracks before supply depot ? How freaking boring terran has become in sc2 unlike in bw we can build a proxy racks and even do some thing cheesy in game . You call them gosus and i call them noob what they can do anyone with a god damn 100 apm also can do the same micro and unlike bw for you to pull of something like the pro's requires seriously hand speed and good cordination plus apm to keep it up and that's what distinguish a normal person between a pro .
Every single game i see in sc2 leads to blob vs blob battles are these interesting to the viewers ? probably you sc2 fanatics but not me at first these game when they had reapers who were quite the harassment unit they made it interesting but no the cry of imba made blizzard push the red button and nerf the damn unit so what kind of interesting games are left for sc2 ? 1 base macro and than blob vs blob battle ? You call that interesting lol any given day a bw game is obviously better than sc2 .
You're right that Brood War is a great game. SC2 does not have to be "better" than BW to enjoy. If you refuse to like SC2 and refer to its fans as kids crying over milk... the hostility level of BW fans in here really makes me happy that for all its trolls and noobs, the SC2 community is at least not as pretentious.
Though I suppose when SC3 comes out the SC2 crowd will be as regressive and hostile as BW fans are right now. Ah, well, hopefully I can make a smoother transition into the future.
EPT
