On April 29 2011 19:33 Sawamura wrote: My beef with sc2 is the storyline and all the dumb excuses they make to shove out all the good units with the obsolete and useless kind of statement that our vultures in bw are leaking radioactive stuff ...
LOL
That SC2:BW dude who made vulture AI and their mines dumb. They could have kept the vulture, less imba (since it's a double edge sword) and more fun to watch. But that's just me. And regarding your quote, IMO, yeah, that statement about radioactive leaking from the bikes is pretty dumb. You can actually see units or buildings survive a Nuclear Strike from a ghost. Surely there will be radioactive stuff lying around that blasted area but no, you can actually remake your stuff back and move stuff in and from the blasted area.
Take a look at the recent triple nuke by ruby against zero, that 12 oclock base was nuked 3x! If what that blasted dwarf said on the hyperion was true then zero couldn't have rebuilt his base there! LOLOLOL. Poor story IMO .. and ..
Take a look at the recent triple nuke by ruby against zero, that 12 oclock base was nuked 3x! If what that blasted dwarf said on the hyperion was true then zero couldn't have rebuilt his base there! LOLOLOL. Poor story IMO .. and ..
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
its not just TSL3,most games are usually devoid of harassment.Harassment is something that people feel impossible to do although as TvP/PvT.
I thought the entire San vs sCfOu series from GSL Code S Season 2 had a TON of harassment from both players. Heck, that series is the rare antithesis to the much derided "200/200 ball vs ball 1-engagement" gameplay, especially considering that both players hovered far below max for the majority of the game. Even Artosis commented that the game looked an awful lot like Brood War, and I feel that the series does show potential for the kinds of games that SC2 can possibly provide.
Also, I think harassment is entirely possible in TvP/PvT. MMM allows for splitting off small forces into Medivacs for drops, which I see Terrans do A LOT in TvP to snipe tech buildings, probes, and expansions. In addition, I feel that Warp Prisms are criminally underused in every matchup, especially considering that their 100/40 health/shields is equivalent to the 80/60 health/shields of the Shuttle. San used extensively to great effect against sC by warping in Zealots and DTs for harassment, and Storm Drops are as powerful in SC2 as they were in BW despite almost never showing up in pro games.
Also, I think Ribbon has some good points. Pros just aren't playing optimally despite all the easier mechanics and AI helping them out. Some units, such as Warp Prisms, theoretically hold huge potential in gameplay and spectator appeal yet are still extremely underused. It is possible for players to play more entertaining, BW-esque games and styles instead of maxing out a ball and going for one big engagement, and I think this possibility is why people have hope in SC2 despite all its flaws.
Despite all the good things they can do with a game engine in 2010, it most likely promotes laziness in the players even though they could potentially do far more in the game yet still can't do as well as the players of the older game. Dropships flew faster than the unnerfed medivacs, so tanks/vultures could be dropped on the toss with multipronged attacks. Did they stop using warp prisms to shield HTs from emps?
On April 29 2011 16:59 Ribbon wrote: ...Corsairs, but I'll give you those as well. Phoenixes are apparently the fast anti-air of the Corsair with the worker-killing of the Reaver, and they're one of the better units in SC2 for that reason, but they're honestly not as good right now.
They seem more of a harass unit than a unit useful for a big battle with good synergy to mix.
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
its not just TSL3,most games are usually devoid of harassment.Harassment is something that people feel impossible to do although as TvP/PvT.
I thought the entire San vs sCfOu series from GSL Code S Season 2 had a TON of harassment from both players. Heck, that series is the rare antithesis to the much derided "200/200 ball vs ball 1-engagement" gameplay, especially considering that both players hovered far below max for the majority of the game. Even Artosis commented that the game looked an awful lot like Brood War, and I feel that the series does show potential for the kinds of games that SC2 can possibly provide.
Also, I think harassment is entirely possible in TvP/PvT. MMM allows for splitting off small forces into Medivacs for drops, which I see Terrans do A LOT in TvP to snipe tech buildings, probes, and expansions. In addition, I feel that Warp Prisms are criminally underused in every matchup, especially considering that their 100/40 health/shields is equivalent to the 80/60 health/shields of the Shuttle. San used extensively to great effect against sC by warping in Zealots and DTs for harassment, and Storm Drops are as powerful in SC2 as they were in BW despite almost never showing up in pro games.
Also, I think Ribbon has some good points. Pros just aren't playing optimally despite all the easier mechanics and AI helping them out. Some units, such as Warp Prisms, theoretically hold huge potential in gameplay and spectator appeal yet are still extremely underused. It is possible for players to play more entertaining, BW-esque games and styles instead of maxing out a ball and going for one big engagement, and I think this possibility is why people have hope in SC2 despite all its flaws.
Despite all the good things they can do with a game engine in 2010, it most likely promotes laziness in the players even though they could potentially do far more in the game yet still can't do as well as the players of the older game. Dropships flew faster than the unnerfed medivacs, so tanks/vultures could be dropped on the toss with multipronged attacks. Did they stop using warp prisms to shield HTs from emps?
On April 29 2011 16:59 Ribbon wrote: ...Corsairs, but I'll give you those as well. Phoenixes are apparently the fast anti-air of the Corsair with the worker-killing of the Reaver, and they're one of the better units in SC2 for that reason, but they're honestly not as good right now.
They seem more of a harass unit than a unit useful for a big battle with good synergy to mix.
One thing you have to realize that almost all, if not all, of the units in BW can used in the battlefront. SC2 units like Reapers, Pheonix, Queen, have a defined purpose for the game, which IMO, is a waste of unit slot in the game. But that's just me ..
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
its not just TSL3,most games are usually devoid of harassment.Harassment is something that people feel impossible to do although as TvP/PvT.
I thought the entire San vs sCfOu series from GSL Code S Season 2 had a TON of harassment from both players. Heck, that series is the rare antithesis to the much derided "200/200 ball vs ball 1-engagement" gameplay, especially considering that both players hovered far below max for the majority of the game. Even Artosis commented that the game looked an awful lot like Brood War, and I feel that the series does show potential for the kinds of games that SC2 can possibly provide.
Also, I think harassment is entirely possible in TvP/PvT. MMM allows for splitting off small forces into Medivacs for drops, which I see Terrans do A LOT in TvP to snipe tech buildings, probes, and expansions. In addition, I feel that Warp Prisms are criminally underused in every matchup, especially considering that their 100/40 health/shields is equivalent to the 80/60 health/shields of the Shuttle. San used extensively to great effect against sC by warping in Zealots and DTs for harassment, and Storm Drops are as powerful in SC2 as they were in BW despite almost never showing up in pro games.
Also, I think Ribbon has some good points. Pros just aren't playing optimally despite all the easier mechanics and AI helping them out. Some units, such as Warp Prisms, theoretically hold huge potential in gameplay and spectator appeal yet are still extremely underused. It is possible for players to play more entertaining, BW-esque games and styles instead of maxing out a ball and going for one big engagement, and I think this possibility is why people have hope in SC2 despite all its flaws.
Despite all the good things they can do with a game engine in 2010, it most likely promotes laziness in the players even though they could potentially do far more in the game yet still can't do as well as the players of the older game. Dropships flew faster than the unnerfed medivacs, so tanks/vultures could be dropped on the toss with multipronged attacks. Did they stop using warp prisms to shield HTs from emps?
On April 29 2011 16:59 Ribbon wrote: ...Corsairs, but I'll give you those as well. Phoenixes are apparently the fast anti-air of the Corsair with the worker-killing of the Reaver, and they're one of the better units in SC2 for that reason, but they're honestly not as good right now.
They seem more of a harass unit than a unit useful for a big battle with good synergy to mix.
One thing you have to realize that almost all, if not all, of the units in BW can used in the battlefront. SC2 units like Reapers, Pheonix, Queen, have a defined purpose for the game, which IMO, is a waste of unit slot in the game. But that's just me ..
Phoenix are increasingly playing an integral role in SC2 Protoss army compositions (unlike Corsairs really did in Broodwar, unless the meta has radically changed since I watched). Unless they are EMP'd, their ability to segment reinforcements into even smaller chunks does wonders for winning battles. They also are critical to deal with air units that are attacking Collossi.
Come now, every once in a while bashing other people in a civilised manner is pretty interesting its interesting to read too, of course
And from the few games that i watch Phoenix's uses arent as complex as TheTenthDoc mentioned.. Sure they COULD be used that way, just that nobody bothered to before (as far as i can see), just like they couldnt be bothered to micro/spread their army/etc =x
On April 30 2011 00:52 J1.au wrote: Too much SC2 talk in a Brood War forum thread...
Really? I love when the masses of SC2 fanboys come here trying to spout off like they have some deep understanding of BW and use it as a base for all these preposterous statements on SC2's future while completely ignoring glaring facts and refusing to so much as address them. Its truly entertaining.
On April 29 2011 17:29 Legatus Lanius wrote: i rewatched that video that was posted a few days ago. as an honest question, are games usually that devoid of harassment in tsl3? it seemed to me the whole game was either two big armies clashing or two big armies walking around the map
I've been watching TSL 3 in bits and pieces. I'm more of a GSL man.
GSL started with a lot of one-base all-ins (during GSL 3, pulling all your SCVs to attack with your first handful of marines was actually standard in TvZ! BitByBit did it literally every game!)
Then around GSL 4, that stopped working as well, and we saw people doing a lot of two-base all-ins. Occasionally a maverick like MVP would do something insane like react to an FE on Metalopolis by double-expanding (and the LR thread went wild), but the standard was a two base timing attack.
Then we entered a period of macro games. Taking a third was common, and games that went to 4 bases, while not the majority, were common enough to be unremarkable. Protoss players found themselves going pretty unharassed late-game, because back then you could literally summon a Templar with enough energy to storm wherever you wanted right away, and deal with the harassment with ease, even if you didn't prepare.
Then the Amulet upgrade that let that happen got taken out, and we're starting to see Macro games with harassment (MMA dropped in three places at once with marauders while poking with his main army in the first game of Code A this season).
So harassment in TvP is only now starting to be viable, so a lot of Terrans aren't doing it well yet, but the ones who are win their games. SC2 didn't start from point X in BW's history and evolve at the same speed BW did. It started at point zero, and has been evolving much faster, with all the messiness that implies.
In terms of the matchups
TvT is considered the best SC2 matchup right now, and I've heard people say it was better than the BW version. We had periods of people trying bio, and the super-fast harassment ninja bio army vs. slow but unstoppable mech army games (Marine King vs Nada) were always really fun to watch, but the mech player tended to win, so that stopped happening. Right now, TvT works like this
1. Harassment! Players harass each others mineral lines with blue flame hellion drops, banshees, floating a factory to the back of the opponent's base and making a hellion and then running up the front with marines (that was awesome), or nuking the ramp and running up with flamethrower-armed ATVs (tactically unsound, but manly as all hell).
2. Tanks! Players set up the World War 1 positional lines with tanks, and use small groups of infantry to drop the map. Banshees and hellions don't stop being good, but players stop using them for some reason ;_;. A lot of Vikings are made for vision, but if one player gets a big lead, the other will just cede the point.
3. Cattlebruisers! With Patch 1.3, if the tanks phase led to a stalemate situation, it can be broken by teching to air. If one player has Viking Superiority, teching to Battlecruisers is considered the correct move, but mass banshee has worked as well. This only recently became viable, so it's in the air how you react, besides a timing attack during the transition.
TvZ sees a lot of early-game bunker rush pressure from the Terran, which doesn't do all that much. Zerg used to turtle up to 200/200 and push out, but that hasn't worked out well for them in ZvT (and has worked out horrifically in ZvP), so Zerg will put a lot of pressure on the Terran now. "A lot of pressure" depend on who's playing, as it hasn't been standardized. Muta tends to be popular, but infestors are REALLY good against bio. I've even seen someone make 140 banelings and just Tsunami down half the map
TvP used to have little to no harassment. Protoss is having issues right now. Their 200/200 ball is actually very hard to stop, so they have an incentive to turtle. Recently, a patch made it less comically easy for Protoss to defend, and we're seeing Terrans realize that multipronged Marauder drops are, like, really good.
ZvZ is pretty much constant aggression, though not quite to the extent of BW ZvZ.
ZvP is imbalanced pretty hard in favor of Protoss right now, unless the Zerg in question is Losira (SO GOOD). If Protoss gets a 200/200 ball of Colossus and Void Rays, Zerg can't even slow it down enough to remax, so ZvP is "For god's sake, don't let him get to 200/200!".
Here's a TSL game
This game made Incontrol admit that Protoss was OP.
So ZvP has issues. Zerg are right now doing everything they can think off to harass the Protoss so this can't happen, but only Losira is having a lot of success with that. There are rumblings of a Colossus nerf, which might alleviate this quite a bit, but we'll see.
PvP is just weird, and is going to be fundamentally altered (for the better, is the consensus) with the patch that's in PTR right now.
The problem is still that I haven't seen any new micro in SC2 since Marine baneling was discovered and (No banshee does not count, that was already there and used). Ow yeah, I do find TvT sc2 more enjoyable then Bw TvT SOMETIMES, as TvT sc2 is more fastpaced and each game doesn't last in 40min, however the topnotch BW TvT's beat SC2 TvT hands down(likes of Fantasy and Baby).
Alot of games are still basically one big battle with big ball, Sc2 is strangely more unforgivable, you can not claw your way back into games with use of micro or certain units. The first major battle decides the entire game basically.
On April 30 2011 05:31 Kipsate wrote: The problem is still that I haven't seen any new micro in SC2 since Marine baneling was discovered and (No banshee does not count, that was already there and used). Ow yeah, I do find TvT sc2 more enjoyable then Bw TvT SOMETIMES, as TvT sc2 is more fastpaced and each game doesn't last in 40min, however the topnotch BW TvT's beat SC2 TvT hands down(likes of Fantasy and Baby).
Alot of games are still basically one big battle with big ball, Sc2 is strangely more unforgivable, you can not claw your way back into games with use of micro or certain units. The first major battle decides the entire game basically.
Bomber vs. IMMVP, GSTL February, MVP comes back from 50 food down to win the game.
On April 30 2011 00:52 J1.au wrote: Too much SC2 talk in a Brood War forum thread...
Really? I love when the masses of SC2 fanboys come here trying to spout off like they have some deep understanding of BW and use it as a base for all these preposterous statements on SC2's future while completely ignoring glaring facts and refusing to so much as address them. Its truly entertaining.
Anything the SC2 fanboys have to say can be countered by this:
MBS + infinite control groups. Followed by massive LOLs.
On April 25 2011 21:48 orgolove wrote: SC2 was doomed from the start when they hired the guy responsible for the farce that is the current Command and Conquer to be their designer.
i love how if i low post count user does this an insta warning or temp ban, if its a high post count its fine........ doesn't seem fair, Browder isn't exactly the best in my opinion but he's not that bad
On April 30 2011 00:52 J1.au wrote: Too much SC2 talk in a Brood War forum thread...
Really? I love when the masses of SC2 fanboys come here trying to spout off like they have some deep understanding of BW and use it as a base for all these preposterous statements on SC2's future while completely ignoring glaring facts and refusing to so much as address them. Its truly entertaining.
Anything the SC2 fanboys have to say can be countered by this:
MBS + infinite control groups. Followed by massive LOLs.
This is the live report thread for the GSL ro16 that's going on right now. As I'm watching, the first series is AWFUL, which atrocious play from both sides. How do the SC2 fans react?
On April 30 2011 14:33 tree.hugger wrote: Why is stupid passivity worthy of nerd chills? Why is Killer called "Killer" if he doesn't want to kill his opponent when he has the advantage?
On April 30 2011 14:33 Ribbon wrote: Nice EMP, and Clide takes out the base base with 40 minerals left in it.
Way to go, Clide. You're a hero.
DTs!
On April 30 2011 14:34 kyophan wrote: One of the collosus was hitting a building in the main the whole battle.
On April 30 2011 14:35 Ribbon wrote: DTs in by army.
Better scan Killer's third.
Clide is making up for impressing me earlier.
On April 30 2011 14:35 aebriol wrote: Clide falling apart, he landed his vikings and suicided them before the last colossus died ...
On April 30 2011 14:36 Kettchup wrote: SangHo with some terrible battle control, but Clide is handing it to him anyway.
On April 30 2011 14:37 GDbushido wrote: still no raven for clide.
this really is one of the sloppiest code s games ive ever seen, im not trolling just kind of amazed.
On April 30 2011 14:38 ffadicted wrote: omg killed is the most passive protoss I have ever seen.... this isn't the way to play toss braaaah
On April 30 2011 14:41 tree.hugger wrote: GO KILL HIM.
MY GOD JUST KILL HIM.
On April 30 2011 14:42 ffadicted wrote: Am I watching Code C? <_<
On April 30 2011 14:42 Goibon wrote: He can't win this... can he?
although it's been a very close crap game
not like anyone has actually played good in this
On April 30 2011 14:42 uSnAmplified wrote: Are you serious if sangho loses im going to die laughing at this point this game has been so bad
On April 30 2011 14:43 Ribbon wrote: Vikings attack Killer's Colossus, and Killer has no stalkers. So killer runs the Colossus to the LEFT while warping in stalkers to the RIGHT.
On April 30 2011 14:44 Goibon wrote: WOW
Killer GGs the worst epic TvP i've ever seen
up there with the Inca Rain game for all the wrong reasons
On April 30 2011 14:44 babylon wrote: Glad Clide won this one, but that was a shitty, sloppy game.
On April 30 2011 14:46 tree.hugger wrote: Some days, I watch Sc2, and I really can see it becoming exciting, becoming a fun game to watch and support. After MC vs ThorZaIN, for example, I was really excited, because here, at last was a series of games that really had depth to them.
And then I watch games like that one, and it just completely collapses any faith I had in Sc2 ever becoming worthy of sustained attention.
On April 30 2011 14:44 Rampager wrote: What the fuck.
First inca vs rain, now this. Stop it.
lol it wasn't nearly as bad as Inca v Rain...
Inca Rain felt like it was one long fuckup. This game felt like it was fuckup after fuckup. Trainwreck entertaining for the whole back half.
I have them both neck in neck honestly, different games but similarly amazing for the wrong reasons.
On April 30 2011 14:48 NoobSh1t wrote: That game was soooooooo sloppy >.>
Clide plays well, than he makes mistake and killer gets advantage, then killer messes up and clide wins? wtf? Thorzain vs MC g4 still greatest TvP of all time.
On April 30 2011 14:48 SolidZeal wrote: I find it really frustrating when player throw away games in stupid ways like killer did. why get double forge and stop upgrading? edit: also his army micro wasn't great except his storms.
ughhhh Killer why :<
He was even chronoboosting the forges. Maybe he missed the integral step of actually starting an upgrade in them.
And that's only set 1! And these are former BW pros!
So the idea that SC2 players are playing at a high level because of BW experience doesn't hold a lot of water for me.
EPT
its interesting to read too, of course 
