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On November 13 2010 07:41 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 07:25 skatbone wrote:
As AntisocialMonkey suggests, the 1-2 base heavy pressure build is the most common response I see to this. My preference would be to go pure rine/raven. I love that combo. But the heavy roach pressure necessitates tanks early on (I suppose marauders would work as well). In the first game, I fail to make 1-2 tanks (which, sieged on the ledge, would have done wonders to deter his roach pressure). I also screw up my wall, leaving too much distance between my rax and bunkers, allowing his roaches to harass the rax outside the range of the bunker. I think this is a good example of my misreading of my opponents intent. I really thought (without evidence) he was going to take a third; I was paranoid that he was taking one of the other starting positions on LT. Consequently, I didn't get tanks and siege up to withstand the storm of roaches. I haven't watched the replays yet (I will tonight), but what about building some banshees if he wants to pump roaches? If you want to do marine/raven, you're going to have the two starports with tech labs. Or is the roach pressure coming too early and hard?
Smackzilla, yea, I think banshees will work. I haven't mastered efficiency with my use of gas in this build. As you'll see, I'm even hesitant to add reactors to my rax because I want to hold onto the gas for rine and raven upgrades and for the ravens. In other words, I'm trying to limit gas early and I'm not sure how much I'd want to dump into banshees But yes, rather than tanks and siege, I could get banshees--though the initial pressure does come before I drop the starports.
I think that finding a method of holding off the 2-base push while using the least amount of gas for the army allows for the most upgrades and the biggest ball of ravens.
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to Skatbone, nice reps. In the LT game, you stimmed your marines at least 4 times before they went out to meet the roaches. Be careful, I used to do a similar thing. Not sure if that would have mattered though in the outcome.
to ASM. I tried doing this build about a week ago without success. I'm sure I didn't have it down at all yet but what I was finding was that I wasn't trading resources really. I would send out my marines and a much smaller force of banelings would wreck my marine ball each time sending me further and further behind. In the original reps, I pretty much saw the marines being a-moved but the resources lost were fairly even. Obviously spreading would help. Is that what I'm missing? I'm referring to early to mid game before raven play really comes in.
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Well, ideally reps would be nice. The main way you counter banelings is to pre-spread your marines instead of standing them in a little ball. Even Foxer does that so zerg has to spend effort to split their original ball. I have a feeling that the real issue is macro though unless the zerg goes nuts on 2 base.
2) Regarding the first 5 marine push, I don't actually make this push all the way to their base anymore, I just push out with the 5 marines, try to kill zerglings at the scout towers or stray OL and then I retreat, this forces them to build lings instead of drones anyway because they think you are coming, but you don't lose your 5 marines to the 10-15lings that are about to pop and your next push will be that much stronger.
You'll only be getting an ovie or two now. This is much like BW opennings. Zergs usually build 12 lings when they see you move out or the first ovies die. Though people who don't frequent TL still do the panic lings after they lose 2 ovies and a queen and a couple drones. TL FIGHTING.
Oh yeah, don't forget to save a scan for pushes before Ravens so you can control creep spread. Zergs are getting better at that.
@Skatbone:
I'll put you reps up there in the OP. Some pretty nice work with the raven death ball  . BTW - Get HSM over Durable. Turrets are nice but HSM snipes baneling herds and oranges roaches. Also. Naturals are freaking death traps. Never make a giant ball of marines in your natural. If you have to rally there, spread them out in little groups preferably in an arc. Vs Banelings, you need retreat room. You won anyway especially after those Roachs suicided in retarded fashion on Shakuras though you would have probably won that earlier. Zergs who stay on 2 base for 20 min are toast.
@Everyone Else:
Again thanks for all the feedback. I didn't expect this guide to be this popular and I'm glad all the Terrans in the house are having fun.
@Lurkers:
Yeah, Zerg needs some sort of positional unit especially on the small maps. Fighting marines on maps like Shakuras isn't too bad and it produces some of the longer mine out games with this style. I'm almost tempted to tell zergs to do some sort of burrowed Ling/Muta Spinecrawler contain against Terran with ovie creep. Infestors actually comes out a little late to combat mass marine and you have practically no 2nd shot if you screw up the initial fungal (especially if T pokes at zerg with a small group of marines and have your main group spread out ready to pounce). However if you can do that and expo behind a contain, that would be very helpful. I don't play zerg so I'm not sure how the timings work.
You could feasily make 3 spines instead of 12 lings early game to defend and then push out with ovie creep and set up a contain when Terran's 2nd base hasn't kicked in yet (add more spines as well?). T will not be able to push out easily if there are spines.
Then T gets a tank and I dunno what you do? Mass Hydra/Roach/Infestor off 3 base?
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I tried this build too the other day without success. The people I versed simply massed banelings very early on and I barely had anything to defend my expo and I felt that every time i tried to apply pressure with marines they'd just melt from the banelings. I'm probably doing something wrong, but should I have went for tanks (a few) to help defend against the mass banelings?
I'll try to find some replays =P
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It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this.
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Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
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On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote:Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolisHere's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsMy army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
Heh, that's my type of Zerg. TLO did that on Sands vs someone minus the blings because he was good at Supreme Commander and is therefore awesome. That was SICK Infestor play in game 2. Nicely done. Fission is an ironic nickname.
However I would say to you that player #1 had bad recovery macro, was passive, and had some issues with control/multitask and player #2 went cute stuff into Marine Tank into dead. You need to FE for this to work. Too much cute stuff gets you killed honestly if you are going for this. I really don't know why people like to do the 2 supply wall. It is quite risky to lose both Depots.
For Player #1 if you are reading this:
You built almost 20 rax equiv of production..... What the hell. Just unsupply block yourself and start spending your money and keep attacking zorg. Know that when he spends his army ot attack you, he has no army left. -_-' You could have won with your massive unit ball if you just attacked earlier. Yes, securing your 3rd is nice but aggression is the order of the day. I guess that comes with experience. Reducing Zerg's drone pump through constant attacks is very important.
While I say that you can do the macro, a-move. It doesn't work when you actually get into the mid-high diamonds so you really need to control your units somewhat. Clumping like that is really bad especially when Infestors are out. Controlling creep is also quite important.
Oh well, that game was still quite close and even salvageable at certain points.
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On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote:Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolisHere's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsMy army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
I have a few replays of terrible zergs trying to go ling/baneling/infestor and failing. My conclusion is that ling/baneling/infestor is TERRIBLE.
See what I did there?
I don't think I need to go into specifics or defend the build, it's all been addressed in the 17 preceding pages. I hope everyone knows not to cast hsm on a zergling, it's actually not used all that often. Anyway, there are ways to beat any build, and there are players that execute things poorly, neither is conclusive proof of anything being terrible. Forgive my candor, it's just bad form to speak in such absolutes. Let's keep our posts reasonable and constructive.
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@AntiSocialMonkey
How do you deal with Roach Hydra before Critical Raven Mass?
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On November 13 2010 10:37 Raiden X wrote:
@AntiSocialMonkey
How do you deal with Roach Hydra before Critical Raven Mass?
If Z gets a critical mass of Roaches and Hydras Tanks are almost a requirement but I have played a grand total of 1 game vs this.
Also, DO NOT cowboy with your Ravens or put them infront of your marines, they will die over creep due to crazy hydra DPS and creep speed.
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On November 13 2010 10:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 10:37 Raiden X wrote:
@AntiSocialMonkey
How do you deal with Roach Hydra before Critical Raven Mass? If Z gets a critical mass of Roaches and Hydras Tanks are almost a requirement but I have played a grand total of 1 game vs this. Also, DO NOT cowboy with your Ravens or put them infront of your marines, they will die over creep due to crazy hydra DPS and creep speed.
Thanks i think my issue is that i commit to far into Bio. TvZ has me depressed  . But at least i don't fear Muta Ling Bling Anymore.
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I have never lost to a zerg that opens roaches using this strategy, they just arent nearly efficient enough to take down stimmed marines, however when they mix them in with baneling speedling I have lost once or twice. I would say the same thing probably goes for hydras....One hydra = 2 banelings...way way less efficient. Post up some replays if your having trouble with this strat guys and we will try to help you out.
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On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this.
This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven.
Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns?
When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo.
So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul.
Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo?
For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map.
And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn.
More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it.
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SCling, I only watched the first 20minutes because it was pretty clear some issues you could clear up.
First and most importantly, not enough marine production and you teched too fast, off 2 bases you can support about 5reactor rax and 1 techlab rax or 11rax, your choice, I prefer the reactor rax because they leave me with more marines earlier in the game. Don't tech to ravens until you have nearly this much production.
Now in no particular order:
1) You suicided a huge army of marines to kill his 3rd which had like 5 drones working at it, you might have been able to kill his entire army instead. Try not to blow stim early like that before you know what your up against. If you had attacked his roaches then in the next battle where you die to roaches and blings things would also have gone much differently. Somtimes its worth it to snipe a main like that if they are low on money and they really need it, not in this case. You could have killed alot of roaches if u just 1a stimmed and most likely all of them if you used step micro, might be worth learning if you don't know how. After you stim, very rapidly (as fast as stimmed marines fire) move back, press h, move back, press h
2) Get +1 weapons sooner
3) Your worker macro is excellent, however you outpaced yourself and had both bases beyond saturation, take a 3rd sooner if you get to the point where you have so many workers.
Anyway these are side points to the fact that if you had more marine production, you could have attacked more often and with more marines throughout the early midgame and he would not have had the economy required to tech up to broodlords and in fact you most likely have just overwhelmed him.
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On November 13 2010 13:41 statikg wrote:
SCling, I only watched the first 20minutes because it was pretty clear some issues you could clear up.
First and most importantly, not enough marine production and you teched too fast, off 2 bases you can support about 5reactor rax and 1 techlab rax or 11rax, your choice, I prefer the reactor rax because they leave me with more marines earlier in the game. Don't tech to ravens until you have nearly this much production.
Now in no particular order:
1) You suicided a huge army of marines to kill his 3rd which had like 5 drones working at it, you might have been able to kill his entire army instead. Try not to blow stim early like that before you know what your up against. If you had attacked his roaches then in the next battle where you die to roaches and blings things would also have gone much differently. Somtimes its worth it to snipe a main like that if they are low on money and they really need it, not in this case. You could have killed alot of roaches if u just 1a stimmed and most likely all of them if you used step micro, might be worth learning if you don't know how. After you stim, very rapidly (as fast as stimmed marines fire) move back, press h, move back, press h
2) Get +1 weapons sooner
3) Your worker macro is excellent, however you outpaced yourself and had both bases beyond saturation, take a 3rd sooner if you get to the point where you have so many workers.
Anyway these are side points to the fact that if you had more marine production, you could have attacked more often and with more marines throughout the early midgame and he would not have had the economy required to tech up to broodlords and in fact you most likely have just overwhelmed him.
Teching too fast and suiciding to get... a single hatch that costs 350 is not good. Statikg is pretty much on the spot. I have fun imagining what 100 SCVs doing a base trade would have looked like though. Surprised the Corruptors didn't do that much vs the Ravens though.
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On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote:Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolisHere's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsMy army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
I actually wanted to use one of these replays (the first one) for educational value, I hope the terran doesn't mind
His mechanics were obviously solid throughout the beginning of the game, even though his apm was kind of low for a marine heavy strategy. But there were some serious decision making problems. Zerg was very very aggressive with lings in the beginning. He had ~24 workers to the Terran's ~37ish at some point I believe. Terran was ahead on workers for the first 14 minutes but took a very late third. For some reason he decided to build ELEVEN reactor barracks on two bases! Those stayed idle most of the game. The starports were also rushed, like really really rushed. You need the marine pressure and upgrades going early on, not super fast ravens. Actually, given the game state, banshees would have been a much better choice for the first production cycle. Another point to add here is that at 15 minutes he hasn't started an engineering bay yet and zerg is beating him in upgrades...that is exactly the opposite of what is supposed to happen.
I also want to note that he did not apply any pressure. He fought off zerg's pressure pretty well and zerg even wasted a lot of banelings and lings to sort of bust the supply depots. I guess this put Terran in a very defensive mindset, and he didn't push out to pressure, so zerg got his third completely uncontested and was able to drone hard - this is a gigantic error that is actually common in a lot of the replays I watch.
Around ~16 minutes there is an engagement. Terran is ahead by about 30 food as a result of his early advantage, but loses all his marines. He takes down all the lings and most of the banelings and keeps his ravens, not a super awful trade but it should have been better. Big point here, though, is that there was little micro and NO marine splitting to reduce the effectiveness of the banelings. The infestors got some pretty marginal fungal growths off but a lot of damage could have been avoided. The hsm use was fancy but not essential, and the subsequent auto turrets were a waste of energy, they didn't even have building armor! Terran has another 31 marines back at home sitting at his natural.../facepalm. Follow up and hit his third!
At ~19 minutes zerg has FIVE bases and terran is just landing his third. This is really not okay. Terran is still ahead on workers though, so kudos for that. At ~20 minutes, the marines are all bunched up and get owned by one fungal. They are 0/0 against 2/2...and then the ravens are suicided in to die to infested terrans. The game is pretty much over at this point. Terran loses his third, does a nifty counter attack where his 1/1 marines get overrun by 3/2 lings. He leaves and zerg spends another 12 minutes in the game hanging out and killing buildings, for the chuckles I suppose.
Anyway, there are a lot of good examples of how you can go wrong. You NEED to micro marines and spread them out, especially if there are infestors afoot. You have to be aggressive and deny expansions while taking some for yourself, not being timid on 2 bases. If zerg is that aggressive early on you will have a substantial worker lead, use that to your advantage. And finally, UPGRADE! Zerg played about the way zergs should, with a lot of upgrades and plenty of infestors, but terran responded poorly. I wouldn't say he sucks or anything, his mechanics were obviously pretty decent, maybe he is new at the strategy or doesn't know how to adapt to that build, but that was his game to lose after he held off the early aggression.
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On November 13 2010 12:42 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this. This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven. Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns? When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo. So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul. Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo? For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map. And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn. More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it.
I didn't see this earlier so I will respond. I still harass the expo but I think for the most part, the 20 marine 9 minute poke is pretty much ineffective unless you pop a tank or two or zerg goes fast third. You might as well just mass for a massive 50 marine poke at 11 minutes with your first raven or tank or whatever.
Yes Zergs seem to go nuts when they see that I'm 2 base mass marining. About 1/3 my games turn into Zerg almost killing my expo, atleast killing all my SCVs, and me somehow winning with a massive raven ball off 1.5 bases vs 2.5 bases. The other 1/3rd is me winning against some sort of mutas off 2 base, and the last 3rd is losing to some sort of massive roach/speedling bust mostly on rock maps.
PS
GSL spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +Did we see any Foxer Marine micro? I haven't watched them yet but the LR thread seems to indicate he did not make enough marines.
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On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote:Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolisHere's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsMy army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
Dude you didn't roll shit. That stupid terran blew up six of his own damn ravens, and let you fungal growth his entire army over and over. His open against you was horrible as well. Why he dropped those hellions at your back door when they easily could have walked there themselves is beyond me. He didn't use the opens posted in the OP either. The strat' is solid, when executed decently.
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On November 13 2010 22:08 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 12:42 skatbone wrote:On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this. This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven. Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns? When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo. So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul. Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo? For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map. And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn. More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it. I didn't see this earlier so I will respond. I still harass the expo but I think for the most part, the 20 marine 9 minute poke is pretty much ineffective unless you pop a tank or two or zerg goes fast third. You might as well just mass for a massive 50 marine poke at 11 minutes with your first raven or tank or whatever. Yes Zergs seem to go nuts when they see that I'm 2 base mass marining. About 1/3 my games turn into Zerg almost killing my expo, atleast killing all my SCVs, and me somehow winning with a massive raven ball off 1.5 bases vs 2.5 bases. The other 1/3rd is me winning against some sort of mutas off 2 base, and the last 3rd is losing to some sort of massive roach/speedling bust mostly on rock maps. PS GSL spoilers + Show Spoiler +Did we see any Foxer Marine micro? I haven't watched them yet but the LR thread seems to indicate he did not make enough marines. Very minor spoiler (unless you don't know the winner, in that case it's a major spoiler...but you can read without spoiling the games)
+ Show Spoiler +I can't even talk about GSL, this dispressed me all day, i'm so sad.
No real good marine micro, because he had no occasion to display some because of how the game were played.
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EPT
