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Nice man. Marine Tank is popular for that reason and seems to be the best transition into MR at the moment though you don't transition into ravens and just go mass full energy medivac.
Tangentally, for those who don't want to wait until I finish the diagrams with MSPaint:
There are some good little tricks for Marine Tank like sieging your tanks tanks far back and poking with some marines while keeping the majority of your marines spread out around the tanks. Then retreat into the tank fire with your forward group of marines. You actually don't really want most of your tanks in range of buildings so they can get their alpha strike against units.
On November 15 2010 13:41 uAir wrote:
I only have one replay in which I went battlecruisers against Zerg. He responded by massing hydras instead. >_>
I was wondering if adapting the marine/raven build into marine/battlecruiser build might be more viable with a more streamlined build.
The goal is to get Zerg to swap ground army for something that can fire back against the battlecruisers. So long as you can hold out against their early and attacks and keep the aggression on them you can save up for a battlecruiser. Then their zergling, baneling, roach armies are in trouble. Mutas are very costly in terms of gas and that will further slow their ground army and weaken them if they choose to mass a lot more mutas to deal with the battlecruisers.
Hydras are one way also but quite honestly, I think hydras are easier to deal with than banelings and zerglings. And if they do that you can cut battlecruisers again to mass grab more ravens and save those minerals for more marines or whatnot.
Forcing them to again keep watching your tech swap. Ravens also do very well against hydras. Being slower in general than mutas they are under risk from the missile and for some reason, autoturrets seem to do slightly better against hydras than roaches.
What do you guys think?
BCs are slow as hell, can't control territory and don't have burst damage. Corruptors demolish them because the BC's armored status, Corruptors get extra damage vs armored, and Corruptors have high armor.
I mean, what you are saying sounds like you want to do the BC rush(search that thread).
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On November 15 2010 13:45 Antisocialmunky wrote:Nice man. Marine Tank is popular for that reason and seems to be the best transition into MR at the moment though you don't transition into ravens and just go mass full energy medivac. Tangentally, for those who don't want to wait until I finish the diagrams with MSPaint: There are some good little tricks for Marine Tank like sieging your tanks tanks far back and poking with some marines while keeping the majority of your marines spread out around the tanks. Then retreat into the tank fire with your forward group of marines. You actually don't really want most of your tanks in range of buildings so they can get their alpha strike against units. Show nested quote +On November 15 2010 13:41 uAir wrote:
I only have one replay in which I went battlecruisers against Zerg. He responded by massing hydras instead. >_>
I was wondering if adapting the marine/raven build into marine/battlecruiser build might be more viable with a more streamlined build.
The goal is to get Zerg to swap ground army for something that can fire back against the battlecruisers. So long as you can hold out against their early and attacks and keep the aggression on them you can save up for a battlecruiser. Then their zergling, baneling, roach armies are in trouble. Mutas are very costly in terms of gas and that will further slow their ground army and weaken them if they choose to mass a lot more mutas to deal with the battlecruisers.
Hydras are one way also but quite honestly, I think hydras are easier to deal with than banelings and zerglings. And if they do that you can cut battlecruisers again to mass grab more ravens and save those minerals for more marines or whatnot.
Forcing them to again keep watching your tech swap. Ravens also do very well against hydras. Being slower in general than mutas they are under risk from the missile and for some reason, autoturrets seem to do slightly better against hydras than roaches.
What do you guys think? BCs are slow as hell, can't control territory and don't have burst damage. Corruptors demolish them because the BC's armored status, Corruptors get extra damage vs armored, and Corruptors have high armor. I mean, what you are saying sounds like you want to do the BC rush(search that thread).
Massive* bonus damage.
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On November 15 2010 12:14 statikg wrote:
Once there is a ball of ravens 5+ you probably already lost, as soon as you realize this is happening you need to do a couple things
1) start spreading creep
2) get baneling speed
3) get some mutas for harass and for picking off ravens
4) start getting armor upgrades
5) make toooons of lings, drop an extra hatch in base if u need larva
5 things that any decent zerg going muta/ling/bling is doing anyhow 
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Just tried out this build opening with KME's FE. I have to say that it worked extremely well for me.
During the match, the zerg tried to counter my ravens with corruptors but sadly he only sent the corruptors in by themselves allowing my marines to kill them. I did lose a couple ravens though as I did not expect him to respond that way.
I am 1200 diamond level so my macro and timings are still off as this is the first time I tried this.
I do like to ask what upgrades to people usually get first? HSM or Raven energy?
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Finally bumped into the Marine Raven strat on the US server
I am guessing this was a low diamond Terran. I normally play on SEA, 1400 diamond.
Despite T getting to 3/3 marines, denying my third twice and getting his third earlier. I managed to beat it using my usual anti-T build of ling/bling/infestor into ultra with 3/3 upgrades (and a dash of mutas at the end when he took the island)
My sense is that marine/raven requires a decent amount of skill to pull off. The T must spend his full attention microing the marines properly, without letting his macro suffer.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166051.jpg)
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I prefer to get raven energy first, since HSM won't have much use until you start to have your raven ball, while autoturrets are useful from the beginning.
I've had problems with a zerg player that went mutas though : he never fought me directly with them, but instead waited for the fight to finish and the pursued my ravens or prevented them from getting too deep to harass his expos. Since he always flew my marines he had quite an amount at the end, and losing my raven fleet cost me the game (I think).
I guess this strat would normally have left him without enough ground forces to properly repel my marine assaults, and that it was my fault for not putting enough pressure on him that allowed him to get a ground army and then some mutas. When it happens though, how do you deal with it ?
More agression to force the mutas to come to the fight and get demolished by upgraded marines ? SM to make them flee ? Put bunker and/or turrets at the rally point to protect the fleet once marines are dead ? Try to get a SM off while he's not paying attention to them ?
(I'm not putting the replay since I realized I'm not nearly aggressive enough, my macro needs work — I'm just not used to producing 15 units at a time yet — and those things would make for too specific advice regarding the game played.)
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On November 15 2010 09:46 Senorcuidado wrote:
Wow, good for kawaii. I haven't seen him play much since beta. It's funny that pros keep doing well with mass marines and we still get people popping in here to say "mass marine sucks, hard countered by x and y"
I'd love to see the replays once they're released.
just figured that there is a dowload replays link
http://binarybeast.com/xSC21011012/brackets#Match40689
top right.
edit : kawai replays are NOT in this, fu.
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Alaric, once the zerg has a big muta fleet you are in a tough spot. Early pressure is the key to avoiding this problem. Keep your ravens with your marines and try to get a good HSM off on a clump of banelings. Hopefully this will force the zerg to confront you with his mutas and you can try for an HSM or just use turrets and PDD.
If the mutas catch your ravens without marines you pretty much have to use HSM to make him run or if you dont have that you can drop a PDD retreat, PDD retreat and hopefully your next group of marines is already on the way or not to far!
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I tried this build in the ladder today for the first time, and I must say that I lost 0:5 or something.. :/
Nevertheless I will continue to use the build as I think that it is fun to play, although AUTO-TURRETS SHOULD PUSH UNITS AWAY LIKE FORCEFIELDS! 
Muta has not been a problem at all with HSM, Infestors were not even needed by the zerg as banelings killed most of my marines every time. The first poke with about 20 marines is vulnerable, many zergs already have enough zerglings with speed to kill all of them and then kill you. And somehow I am not able to make them hard pump units without killing me, so that the wasting larvae part of this strategy is utilized.
Also, I am not experienced at all with this build. But I think it is much harder to pull off then using siege tanks for example. The marines have to be control excellent for you to stand a chance. If the ravens die, you die. It seems as soon as ultras are out you still die to them nevertheless with this strat.
I really would like to see more replays than does provided, from platinum players preferably.
Maybe I will post some of mine too, although I could only secure a third in one of them... T_T (still lost to ultras)
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That 20 marine poke isn't really that viable anymore since zergs don't auto-take a third anymore.
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When are you making your first major attack now ASM? I am playing almost exclusively this strategy these days and I have to say I am winning at best 50% now at 2100, most of the oppenents I beat are lower then me. I have had more luck with waiting until stim and +1 finishes at which point I usually have about 30. Stim kiting is VERY key, probably more effective then marine splitting IMO. I am also having trouble against fast speed roaches supplemented by banelings who just run away when I stim up and then rinse and repeat, if this starts happening before my starports are up it can be a big issue.
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Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg.
One of the major issues with mass roach is that Turrets DO NOT WORK which means the Ravens are almost useless when they pop. You have to get HSM so that gives you a massive hole with which to deal with in your timings. You need splash and tanks are probably the best option while Banshees would work for harassing.
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On November 16 2010 11:27 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg.
Couldn't i just star going Marine Maruader? I have all the upgrades and a ton of raxes. If i can split marines i pretty sure i can split Maruaders. Plus it take a ton of blings to kill maruaders.
This way a) you won't eat your gas b) You'll stay mobile
I also figured that if they start going hydra roach to focus on Marauder Hellion with a few marines just in case of Mutas. Hellions don't take away mobility.
It flows pretty nicely
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On November 16 2010 11:36 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:27 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg. Couldn't i just star going Marine Maruader? I have all the upgrades and a ton of raxes. If i can split marines i pretty sure i can split Maruaders. Plus it take a ton of blings to kill maruaders. This way a) you won't eat your gas b) You'll stay mobile I also figured that if they start going hydra roach to focus on Marauder Hellion with a few marines just in case of Mutas. Hellions don't take away mobility. It flows pretty nicely
This is feasible but it depends on the timing but the burst damage is huge even if marauders are tanking it. Additionally the 20/30 marine 'scary' poke comes when you are weak compared to zerg (zerg's 2nd expo kicks in much faster unless he takes a third) so getting marauders may nto change anything because its an issue of the T FE.
I also rather have tanks over marauders so if you're having problems later, then I'd suggest tanks. If you are having issues earlier, get marauders. Maybe you could get both. You have 4 gas to play with.
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My exams just finished so i finally have time to play around with new builds and this build is just, wonderful to be honest.
I've been trying the 4 rax straight to Ravens strategy but that didn't work too well for me as I have trouble with quick banelings most of the time; so decided to go delay ravens and go for 2-3 siege tanks to back up my marine ball for a timing push.
Here's a rep of a game that i have just played;
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166438.jpg)
The reason why I'm posting this up is to inquire on a few things;
1) What made my early aggresion so successful? Was it because of my early stim or was it because he simply did not have enough zerglings out?
2) How viable is getting Stim first instead of Shields if you're going to be more aggresive, like in this game?
3) What could the Zerg do to stop the push?
4) What are you thoughts on the use of Siege Tanks with the cost of delaying Ravens?
I really want this build to work for me and these are a few questions on top of my head at the moment; I would really appreciate it if you guys would spend a little of your time watching the replay to give suggestions and answer my questions. Any criticism on my play will be well received =D
FYI this game is of me (1500 T) against a 1600 Z, if you guys are wondering.
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I haven't seen the replay because it's 1am and i have class in the morning, but to try to answer some of your questions...
2) I think the reason shields first work is the timing lines up nicely with +1 weps. In the Kme aggression build,the 2nd rax + techlab and ebay are thrown down around the same time, so +1 can be started ~30 seconds before combat shield, and finish at more or less the same time. With stim, you'd have to wait the 30 seconds (110 for CS, 140 for stim, i think) before you could push out with an upgrade advantage, which is pretty big.
4) tanks provide fantastic support fire for dealing with units that rock marines hard, like blings, speedlings and infestors, and are obviously more effective earlier on than a small number of ravens due to earlier tech and lower gas cost. Though one of the big advantages of teching straight to ravens is the ability to deny creep tumors sooner, making the serious marine counters much easier to deal with later on. It's also worth mentioning that going marine/tank cuts into mobility a great deal, due to having to tank inch so you don't get bumrushed unsieged.
Though take what I say with a grain of salt, because i'm a gold-level scrub TL lurker.
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On November 17 2010 18:01 Opalcard wrote:My exams just finished so i finally have time to play around with new builds and this build is just, wonderful to be honest. I've been trying the 4 rax straight to Ravens strategy but that didn't work too well for me as I have trouble with quick banelings most of the time; so decided to go delay ravens and go for 2-3 siege tanks to back up my marine ball for a timing push. Here's a rep of a game that i have just played; The reason why I'm posting this up is to inquire on a few things; 1) What made my early aggresion so successful? Was it because of my early stim or was it because he simply did not have enough zerglings out? 2) How viable is getting Stim first instead of Shields if you're going to be more aggresive, like in this game? 3) What could the Zerg do to stop the push? 4) What are you thoughts on the use of Siege Tanks with the cost of delaying Ravens? I really want this build to work for me and these are a few questions on top of my head at the moment; I would really appreciate it if you guys would spend a little of your time watching the replay to give suggestions and answer my questions. Any criticism on my play will be well received =D FYI this game is of me (1500 T) against a 1600 Z, if you guys are wondering.
1) He didn't expect the 20 marine push. A lot of zergs that haven't faced this will skimp on army if they haven't played a marine opening before.
2) At this juncture, unless you see zerg doing something crazy with mass speedling only, you're going to want stim first.
3) You need faster banelings to at least defend that push. Throwing down spines early helps. Usually if Zerg sees the reactor rax or a 2 rax wall, they'll get the hint that T is going for an early timing push.
4) The Ravens are mid-late game. You need to be able to get to them. I think I address tanks vs other stuff in the FAQ.
The map was also Delta Quadrant which favors the aggressor if both players FE. Likewise, mutas don't work so well on it (Terran can just run across the map). To combat this, Zerg needs to get a big ground army and deny your expo which is actually quite annoying on DelQuad. You can do a PF expo to kinda stop this.
Have fun . Also, don't forget to split your marine ball up into little clumps whenever you stop them.
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I had some replays I wanted to share but my video card died yesterday so my computer is not functional until next week 
I am getting beat by very aggressive zerglings delaying my fe, which is why I'm going back to the reactor rax expand for the earlier expo. I also played a few practice games against a damn good Zerg, and he expanded like crazy while still being able to hold off the timing attack. He has obviously played against this strat lots of times, and he was the only one that could keep
up in Econ and still defend properly. That said, if I had opened banshees he would have lost immediately so maybe it's just a risk he could afford to take since he knew what I was doing.
On ladder ~1900 I'm still owning zergs that are caught off guard, but i'm finding tanks more necessary. You HAVE to threaten their third base or take your own very fast or you'll get run over. That's the hard part so far on big maps with spread out expansions, especially if you're tank crawling.
If the replays are still there when I get my computer fixed I'll try to post them.
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Senorcuidado,
I'm having similar results with a number of Zerg capable of holding off attacks while mass expanding. This tends to happen when we spawn in cross positions. I also find that my wins often come against those who are surprised by the strategy. I want to be able to tweak this so that I can beat people who are consciously countering it.
ASM,
Here's my concern: with so many Zerg 2-basing against this strategy, I find that often, they will mass an army while doing this, but they will not be aggressive. Once they've saturated 2 bases and have a standing army (various compositions-often roach/ling/bling; often lots of roach/a bit of bling/a bit of ling/a bunch of muta), they take the rest of the map.
More than anything, I've having trouble gauging when to be aggressive. With 2 basers, I get the need to turtle. But if they 2 base and then start taking the map, I am finding that I am forced to move out and by that time, they not only have an army, but they have enough larva to recreate a higher tier army (often ultras-and these ultras arrive before I have 3/3 and faster than I can reproduce a sufficient rine army. The issue is partially with my macro and sometimes poor scouting).
I know part of my problem is hesitance in taking my third.
The solution I'm working on is delaying the ravens even more to get a host of medivacs (as a number of others have suggested in this thread). Then I take a small portion of my army and engage with his as a feint as I drop in his main.
I am also starting to take the utility of banshees more seriously (force him to counter and not just sit on his roach/ling/bling).
Awkwardly enough, the build starts to feel a lot less like rine/raven when spending gas on tanks, medis, and banshees. Every once in awhile, I win a game where I never get the chance to bring my ravens into the fight.
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@Senorcuidado
There are a few things that you can do to deal with this depending on the map. On maps with narrow chokes, you can obviously wall the natural expo. On Delta Quad, build a Pfort. Looking forward to the reps, descriptions are vague.
@skatbone
I agree zergs that sit on 2 base is hard to deal with. One of the things you can do, is produce a round of medivacs before Ravens and octo-drop to get hellions while pushing and retreating. Terran almost always has an advantage when it comes to harass. If you are tank heavy, you can siege expand to a third and force the zerg to expo or stop you and then get up even more barracks and ports.
There's a reason why people go marine/tank ->marine/medivac. You need mobility to deal with a third like you've experienced. Ravens can function similarly to medivacs and tanks at the same time but you require a certain amount of ravens and enough time to do this. I think I address some of this stuff in the FAQ. Its becoming less and less common that you can actually go straight marine/raven other than against mass muta + ground because it comes out somewhat slowly compared to tanks that instantly can start dropping siege shots and medivacs that instantly give you high mobility.
Actually usually when I'm in a stalemate position where I can't attack zerg and win but I know zerg can't attack me and win is that I expo. I know it is weird to say but it basically forces the opponent to do SOMETHING even if it is to take a third (which makes zerg more droppable).
Also, don't be afraid to try and thin out the zerg hordes. Zerg wants to max out food so slow pushes and contains are quite useful. Also, Terran with their defensive advantage can be fairly greedy with PFort plants and upgraded turrets.
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EPT
