EPTI don't lose every game against marine/tank or marine/raven, but it's a lot more even. I've found the key to the zerg response is, as I said a few pages back, keeping ling parity with marines for the first stage of the game. You can handle the first few pushes with lings only, or lings and only a few banelings, and save your gas for the later pushes. Once you're in the midgame, you use gas for to destroy midgame pushes with huge waves of banelings and mutas for the ravens, which lets you secure a third. The most important factor is not letting the terran force you to use too much gas too soon. I save my early game gas for upgrades, usually 2 evo chambers to match the marine upgrades. I've also had success building 5-6 roaches with the lings instead of banelings. The roaches have the same effect of modifying the strength of mass lings, but they generally survive the battle. Once the third is secure the terran is at a disadvantage. Once I'm on hive-tech, or I can start pumping mutas, infestors, anything gas heavy in large amount it crumbles pretty fast.
[G]TvZ Marine/Raven - Page 31
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pwadoc
271 Posts
I don't lose every game against marine/tank or marine/raven, but it's a lot more even. I've found the key to the zerg response is, as I said a few pages back, keeping ling parity with marines for the first stage of the game. You can handle the first few pushes with lings only, or lings and only a few banelings, and save your gas for the later pushes. Once you're in the midgame, you use gas for to destroy midgame pushes with huge waves of banelings and mutas for the ravens, which lets you secure a third. The most important factor is not letting the terran force you to use too much gas too soon. I save my early game gas for upgrades, usually 2 evo chambers to match the marine upgrades. I've also had success building 5-6 roaches with the lings instead of banelings. The roaches have the same effect of modifying the strength of mass lings, but they generally survive the battle. Once the third is secure the terran is at a disadvantage. Once I'm on hive-tech, or I can start pumping mutas, infestors, anything gas heavy in large amount it crumbles pretty fast. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On November 19 2010 10:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't know what you mean by 'early banelings'? A rep or a description of the timing would be better. You can usually hold a 1 base pretty easily unless your gate is down. Or do you mean when they attack your marines. Again it depends on timing. You can look at KME's reps. Sorry, had to rush out the door so I didn't get to explain. I just mean dedicated baneling use against my marines as a defensive measure for the Zerg (to blow apart my aggression). I can handle it easily(ish) by transitioning into siege tanks, or just dealing with a baneling bust or something. I just find that unless I dedicate a lot of resources to tanks instead of Ravens, I have a lot of trouble keeping up my aggression against baneling usage. Is there some trick I'm missing using the ravens? Do I just need to transition into siege tanks to deal with it? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Does don't Wig out and start running all your marines around across the map. | ||
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uAir
United States41 Posts
If Zerg saves his gas and just insists on pressuring Terran with early speedlings it becomes an equal exchange of sorts with Terran never being able to mass enough marines for that critical mass against Zerglings. Thus, Zerg can spend their overabundance of minerals and save their gas for when they need it. Too many times opponents will witlessly waste banelings or get roaches. And also true. Once Zerg takes a 3rd and it begins saturating I find it nearly impossible to win. Even if I get my own third. I can only do so much against infestors, mutas, banelings, speedlings being pumped out without impunity. | ||
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[SuNdae]
Finland323 Posts
I open with 2 port banshee into expand, while putting down barracks for transitioning to marine/raven. My opponent goes for muta/ling/bling and later adds roaches and infestors and ultras(yeah its a pretty long game) I've been using this strat for about 2 weeks now. Most problems I've had with are early roach rushes, that usually come when my banshees are about half way done, the important part is just to hold your bunker up so your banshees get out before you lose half your base. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-167077.jpg) Edit: the game is mid diamond. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On October 25 2010 15:05 aNx wrote: Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra. The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all. PDD doesn't affect roaches. | ||
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orotoss
United States298 Posts
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
1) Getting upgrades. If they're on even footing with you then you have no advantage. 2) Massing up speedlings early on. Don't even need banelings but they make it that much easier. You're free to drone up and expand to your hearts desire since even with 5-6 reactor barracks pumping marines constantly they cannot outmacro you even still. Using good stim/kite and marine spread makes that practice quite useless if you keep up your speedlings to be even with his army. But this strat does work if the zerg is caught unaware or has not encountered large marine-based builds before. Raven harass is great but zerg mobility can shut it down quite easily as long as you're keeping your army near your expansions. Seeker missle can flat out be avoided completly in most situations as long as you're paying attention. Worked great from 1800-2100 or so but now it's pretty much just something you do when you've gotten bored of doing an all-in 2 base push with mech/bio units. Completly countered by the zerg just out-macroing you once they figure out your strat. I would really like to see some better replays from high-diamond since both seemed to just be testing a build and their opponent had no reaction to the situation. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Because this current period of TvZ is really weird right now since people are figuring out how to kill marine openings with zerg, it is hard to nail down responses to situations into the form of 'get X to beat Y.' You have to play it by ear and experience. At this point it if you want to play this sort of style, it is a question of how to react to zerg's midgame. Basically it is about how many tanks, hellions, marauders, banshee you need to get to stay alive until you get the crit mass of Ravens while still forcing zerg to spend resources. If zerg did figure out how to 100% beat mass marine openings like people keep acting like zergs have, Terrans would be completely boned. Also while feedback is encouraging... [rant] ...I don't know why people keep complaining about getting rolled when they go straight marine + raven. You cannot do that anymore. I've repeatedly stated you cannot just go do that straight up except vs mass expanding zerg or zergs who go mass muta off two base. Its in the FAQ because updating the whole OP as the meta-game shifts is not feasible. You have to respond to what the other player is doing just like zergs are doing to marine builds. You have to adapt, its part of the fun.  [/rant] | ||
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RawK
United States125 Posts
Obviously the problem with that is that you sac 8 SCVs, but if it fails this can be an interesting followup if you can come back. I've always wanted to use ravens more, so im definatley gonna give this a try. | ||
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robocup30
Canada21 Posts
I don't have replays with my ATM cause I forgot to save but I'll post one if I run into this build from zerg again. Note: zerg also gets double evo and keeps up with upgrades making 3/3 rines not as effective as you would want | ||
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BAPE
United States8 Posts
 All terran's should just forget about the silly hellion business and just do this because it's 20x better. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On November 20 2010 15:46 robocup30 wrote: What should I do against mass speedling/baneling/infestors? Once rines get fungal'd banelings roll over them easily and it's near impossible to dodge fungal effectively when infestors are so quick on creep. Once Z reaches 8+ infestors, they seem to be able to destroy even 100 army of rines easily. Conserving raven is also painful cause once rines are cleaned up, infestor fungal ravens and then spawn infested which shoots raven down fast. Should I be adding siege tanks to the mix? I don't have replays with my ATM cause I forgot to save but I'll post one if I run into this build from zerg again. Note: zerg also gets double evo and keeps up with upgrades making 3/3 rines not as effective as you would want As people have previously mentioned, 3/3 marines are not that effective against 3/3 zerg units but other marine based armies have the same issues and probably worse issues due to having the marine bit be the important part of their army. For that sort of composition, I'd really really stop for both tanks and medivacs. It really depends when the infestors come out though. Infestors are a pretty large investment so you won't see nearly as many other meat units like roaches. Standard procedure to kill infestors and banelings when only speedlings are around is to stim about 4 units and run forward with them and then run them back preferably in and out of tank range. The key as always is spreading your units out like vs banelings. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
only need one!And it takes 2 snipes plus 1 more damage (maybe from auto-turret) to kill an Infestor. Ghosts are better against mutas than tanks too lol | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
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Baggiez
United Kingdom24 Posts
Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost. Replay is here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12498137/tvz jungle basin.SC2Replay Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =) | ||
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enigmaticcam
United States280 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/107533-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station I knew it was coming, so I built an extra bunker near my mineral line. But it wasn't enough. I have no idea what to do when this happens. Any help would be appreciated, thanks! | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On November 22 2010 01:43 Baggiez wrote: Low/Mid diamond terran here. Have used this strat a few times and have been having good results (6-1 before today), yet never felt like I really nailed it. Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost. Replay is here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12498137/tvz jungle basin.SC2Replay Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =) A lot of that came down to kinda bad macro(both players had bad macro but still) and some questionable decision making and mechanics. The most crucial parts of marine heavy openings is micro and while you can lose a lot of marines by going mass raven and macroing like a maniac, these days you need to be able to spread for banelings and basic stuff like that. You almost had the game won but you ran out of minerals by not calling down mules at all. The final nail in the coffin was not floating your main CC out. You were basically not mining for a large portion of the game. Also, the baneling detonation on the PFort was epic. PS. If anyone wants to screw with zergs at the higher level with marine opening... I've been toying around with abusing Zerg's lack of easy scouting before lair. Basically you can 2 Rax OC into the standard 3-5 marine push/bunker (The fast 2 Rax wall should be able to lock Z's scout out on larger maps). Then you have two options: -You can build a CC and float out. -Tech to banshee as fast as you can and expand with tanks and banshees. Banshees should come out slightly after when you float your CC out. The beauty of Banshees as people have been discovering is that it forces Z to tech to tech and get mobile AA (detection too if you go cloak). They can also run around the map killing ground units like crazy(go to pookie's thread). However, if you open with a 2 rax as with the standard marine FE and deny scouting ovies, you basically force zerg to blind commit to either a 2 base low tech semi-all to counter the mass marine(which shares the same opening) or do something with lair for the banshee at which point you can just delay the port and siege expand into turtle + drop play. The main thing to nail down are the timings on the gases. It should be fun to use against better zergs who can tell what's coming. | ||
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k4ne
Austria34 Posts
On November 22 2010 01:43 Baggiez wrote: Low/Mid diamond terran here. Have used this strat a few times and have been having good results (6-1 before today), yet never felt like I really nailed it. Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost. Replay is here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12498137/tvz jungle basin.SC2Replay Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =) 18min of game: -Only 2 bases -1.3k gas : build more raven, 1 more Ebay for faster upgrade -Only 6 rax (remember you can support 10 rax on 2 bases) -0 micro on your marines: you lost so many of them vs blings OUT OF CREEP. -Your mineral management at early game was pretty bad : 1k+ min and 700 gas, you should have drop more barracks and 2 starport at the same time. -Your first "attack" was around 13min. You really should attack way earlier -PDD DOESN'T WORK AGAINST ROACHES -you lost so many ravens for nothing... you really don't have to lose them (it will allow you later to build medivacs for dropping, tanks for covering your b3 etc...). -2 OC with 200 energy. -Because you lose so many raven you had no opportunity to harass his 2nd, 3rd with turrets... Near end game you didn't even lift your CC. You had 6 raven with so so many energy so you should have harass his 3rd with turrets (only 1 queen and 1 spine crawler to defend it). your macro is horrible dude, most of the time you have +1k min and +2k gas !! Adding some bunkers is a good idea on this map to deal with many blings. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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