Attention all Terrans: If you are tired of MMM into more MMM or mech into lose everything to ultralisks, you might want to look into this style of play.
I'm adding some background info for fun/SCII noobs from WOW. If my writing is as bad as I think it is, skip down 3 bold headings.
Updates Nov/14/2010 Started working on the micro and tricks sections.
Nov/12/2010 Yeah for infixed timestamps. KME rep pak #3. Mid-diamond Skatbone reps as well.
Nov/08/2010 Added New FAQ Section. Check it out because it contains up to date info on how to react and how to transition.
Nov/06/2010 Added reps generously provided by MadisonStreet.
Nov/01/2010 Cleaned up the playing against certain strategies section to be more concrete.
EDIT: Unsurprisingly, someone else also has a guide if you are curious http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148558 EDIT: Added 3 Replays, made more notes about KME's opening. EDIT: For those wondering how well this works at the top of ladder, PokeBunny posted a pack of 7 reps: http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y EDIT: Hmmm, seems like there should be an adaptation for the Z that stays on 2 hatch and tries to murder you horribly. I only have response to expansion to 3 base. :[ EDIT: Cleaned up the build section and added variation and adaptation sections. EDIT: More Clean up EDIT: Note to self: Make Baneling Micro Guide...
FAQ and Common Misconceptions(Decision Making and Transitions) + Show Spoiler +
What am I doing wrong? I keep dying. Check your replay for: 1) Am I macroing all the time? 2) Am I being correctly aggressive? (see Below) Post rep if you can't figure it out.
How does Marine/Raven play vs Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac? While all three styles are basic transitions from pure marine or other marine heavy styles, there is one basic important difference. Marine/Tank requires tanks to cover Marines form banelings and infestors and Marines to cover Tanks from air and sustained assault. Marine/Medivac relies on Medivacs to augment the power of highly upgraded Marines by increasing effective health and mobility. Both these styles emphasize the preservation of Marines. Marine/Raven asks that you spend your Marines to inflict a war of attrition on the zerg while massing a critical mass of ravens to destroy everything late game. Survival of each marine army is secondary to the massing and protection of the Ravens.
That being said, each style is good against certain types of play. Marine/Tank is good simultaneously attacking and defending, Marine/Medivac is good for abusing the high base count of later game zerg. Marine/Raven is good for both of the above once your Ravens snow ball into something unstoppable with every Raven that you add to your fleet and every engagement where you kill parts of zerg's army and not lose ravens.
When should Marine/Raven be employed vs Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac Marine/Raven and Marine/Medivac should be regarded as hard counters to a fast third. Zerg cannot apply much counter pressure if he or she goes for a fast third so you can tech straight to Ravens or medivacs while using primarily marines to control the map and take down the third. Marine/Raven is also more powerful vs Muta heavy combinations compared to Medivacs as HSM is quite a deterrent and a damage dealer. Marine/Tank is very powerful vs slower expanding Zergs that stay on two base instead of FE. Marine/Medivac is good vs a Zerg who manages to defend Terran's mid-game pushes and successfully expands to three or four bases as the bases are spread out.
It is also quite easily to transition from Marine/Tank and Marine/Medivac to a late game Marine/Raven. In fact, except in the case of a fast third or mass muta, Marine/Raven should be considered a late game composition and a transition out of Marine/Tank or Marine/Medivac.
Since you say Marine/Raven is a late game composition, how do you transition into it? The Marine + X builds all have the same core, it is just a matter of building the correct facilities with the correct add-ons. However more frequently, you can just add additional units into you existing mix instead such as:
-Putting a tech lab on your factory to build tanks. -Build Medivacs with your first starport. -Mass Ravens with your second starport.
The advantageous of doing this is pretty obvious - flexibility and full use of all production structures. The disadvantage is that you won't be able to mass any particular unit as quickly. Generally speaking, if you shoot for a MR late game, then you will probably want to get both Tanks and Medivacs before Ravens as Zergs adapt to Marine + X builds and MR.
What to do when.... I don't know how to counter specific builds since Zerg is so dynamic. This is why my adaptation sections are really vague. I just know what to do when I see certain things so I will represent it in this way. + Show Spoiler +
No Second Base Build a Bunker up immediately and don't forget the back door. If you must, morph a PFort in your natural.
Fast Third Aggressive MR. Use the trading strategy I outlined. Apply constant pressure and tech to Ravens since this style usually comes with Mutas to control space and force you to defend your base.
Mass Muta off 2 Base Defensive MR. Use the trading strategy I outlined except mass more units before moving out each wave. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL 200/200. Somewhere over 100 is enough or until all your 2 base production structure are up. You must wait because both Ravens and Marines get exponentially more powerful and you must be able to have enough Marines to withdraw your Ravens. Do not wait until 200/200 or Zerg can stash larva and rebuild faster than you when recovering from a 200/200 battle(because you can't stock pile building capacity at 200/200). Turret slow push is a good strategy for forcing an engagement against a 2 basing Zerg with Mass Muta. Your ground army will beat his if he tries to get you to run to your base with his Muta. HSM is good for both sniping banelings and forcing Mutas away.
2 Base, Mass Ground Go Marine/Tank either off one or in extreme cases 2 factories. Slow push across the map and set up a contain to force an engagement on your terms. Be wary of a counter. You can also use tanks to take a third to force him to expo or come to you. Then transition into Marine/Medivac/Raven off 3 bases to drop Zerg's bases and get your late game Raven fleet up.
2 Base, Fast Infestor Marine/Tank or theoretically Banshees will work to snipe infestors.
Zerg Takes Third with Large Army Transition to Marine/Medivac or Marine/Raven if you are in Marine/Tank to abuse mobility. Tanks will not be able to slow push as well against a 3 Base Zerg unless the map is favorable for it (too many directions for possible attacks). Don't forget to take a third yourself.
-PDD is a defensive spell. Use to protect Ravens when ambushed by Muta or Hydra. In fact PDD is quite good vs Hydra since you will almost always meet them when attacking a third base if Zerg elected for hydras. PDD buys you time to put down turrets, HSM, or run away. -HSM is good for sniping. It is also good when your ravens have high energy and may very well die. HSM is also good since it requires the fewest clicks to spend all your energy. -Turrets are good for slow push, controlling space, and substituting for drops (when you have enough Ravens).
+Attack when Zerg is greedy or you have an army/production advantage. Zerg can get bases up and running much faster than you so if you see Zerg being greedy or taking an extra base, it is a good time to attack. +Turtle when Zerg throws units at you off an even number of bases and does not expo. Move out when your production capabilites are maxed. +Be aggressive on the edge of creep. It is easy to pick off creep turmors and important to do so. You may be able to draw zerg into a fight on unfavorable terrain.
When should the KME build be done vs when the 2 Rax FE should be done? 2 Rax FE can apply a stream of continuous pressure very early on as it hits in the window right when the natural gets put up and zerg has no units. The disadvantage is that 2 Rax FE gives you forces you to remain with unupgraded marines due to later refineries. It is also easy to get overly aggressive because zerg can reach full production on his main before you and just kill you. KME's build forgoes hyper aggressive early pressure for a series for a larger timing attack after the natural expo completes with atleast combat shield and +1. This occurs about when both your bases being to reach full production. You can work Stim in also by getting a second rax before E-Bay and researching both Stim, CS, and +1. It really depends on your play style.
Long long ago in a time almost forgotten by people with sub 200 post counts - a time when scourge roamed the skies and cracklings weren't suffering the consequences of substance dependence, a not-so-famous-anymore-Terran named Soul Key figured out that Science Vessels were completely imba and abused the hell out of them. Not since the advent of dropship use had the swarm be so badly curb-stomped ... in the nuts ... with radioactive green fire. Clouds of Terran Science Vessels floated about with impunity doling out radioactive green death upon anything that sparked their wrath. And sometimes they would throw out a defense matrix when they were feeling creative.
Or more irradiates instead
Ever since Soul Key invented the SK Terran style of play, countless Terrans have abused the guaranteed death sentence of the irradiate to kill all Zerg's expensive endgame units, disperse muta clouds, and deal with lurkers and swarm that couldn't be HURT BY ANYTHING ELSE. Being the totally balanced game that Brood War is/was Zerg figured out counters and Terrans figured out other styles of play. However, SK Terran remains one of the most used styles in modern TvZ (except you make tanks and turtle in the corner when you can't kill the zerg, Flash and Sea).
SK Terran is a mid-to late game style that emphasizes the production of a massive amount of marines and medics in the mid-game that is later supplemented by a large 'cloud' of science vessels (usually more than 2 less than 10) as the game progresses. Usually games that result in SK Terran begin with a fast expand into two base play.
There are several reasons for why SK Terran has been such a successful style: - M&M with stim is ridiculously cost effective, mobile, and easy to produce. Terran can quite easily stay ahead of the zerg in food. - Because it relies on mineral heavy units to hold down the midgame, you end up with a massive stockpile of gas for vessels which require little minerals and lots of gas. - The combination complements itself because M&M kill everything not under dark swarm while vessels can kill everything else. M&M protect the vessels while the vessels snipe units that give M&M a hard time. - All of zerg's scary units that are not lings require gas, if zerg over commits gas heavy units vs Terran, zerg cannot exploit the upper end of the tech tree effectively because it is so gas heavy. The better the Terran trades minerals for gas, the less likely zerg can effectively counter SK Terran because lings and sunkens by themselves don't do very well against a ball of M&M that becomes exponentially more powerful the more M&M there is.
It's also quite entertaining to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TtWegXOOGg Remember when Flash vs Jaedong didn't happen every 4 months?
Wouldn't it be nice if Terran could do the same thing in SCII?
So the pretty much the first thing I did after I got decent at SCII was to figure out a way to not play every match up with MMM. Not that MMM is particularly bad but it is really boring to play. You have one big unit ball with some floaty medics that A-Moves and wins against stuff. To avoid this, I first tried Thor/Hellion TLO style mech. That was okay but ridiculously immobile due to Thor speed and has problems on certain maps. So instead of trying out stuff from the GSL, I tried to replicate BW builds in SCII. So with the help of KME who came up with some nice openings and timings as well as did a lot of play testing, here is the Marine Raven style of play.
- 10 Depot - 12 Rax - 13 Gas - Pull guys off after 50 gas. - 15 Orbital - 1 Marine, Reactor - Continually produce marines - 2nd depot - 2nd CC at 400 min - You can try getting this before depot, be mindful of rush distances. * 5 Marine Soft Poke, run to his base and run back, kill some xelnaga lings or get an ovie if possible - 2nd Barracks, put guys back in gas, get tech lab - Start researching combat shield. - Ebay - Start getting infantry weapons * 16-20ish Marine Scary Poke, move out right before upgrades finish. It is 16 if you lose your first marines and 20 if you didn't. - 3rd and 4th Rax - Keep Researching whatever infantry/turret ups you can so you gas doesn't go nuts. - Factory + 2nd Gas - Get Third Gas - Get 2 Star Ports. Build Tech Lab on Fact, swap Tech Lab to SP and the Tech Lab on Rax if stim is done. Start building ravens and medivacs(if you want to). Research Raven Energy and HSM first. - Get Fourth Gas * Move out with 30+ marines and first Raven, attack Zerg's third.
+ You can either build a mass of Barracks with your excess minerals or reactors. I personally like slamming down 5 additional barracks to wall off part of my natural and then expo to a third while shutting down zerg's third.
This build aims at producing lots of fully upgraded marines. I think this is the build you should try to go for ideally. It is very powerful. You have a very good timing attack with around 20 marines that will catch some Zergs off guard. Depending on how early you scout, you should throw down a bunker if you see no second base. See Below.
A single hatch with no other intel means Zerg is going to probably go for a semi-all-in with roaches or maybe some sort of bling bust. Remember that the more intel you get, the better you can prepare your response so scout well. You may or may not want to cancel your reactor. I would prefer just finishing it. You should be able to get about 5 marines out by the the zerg attack hits. While this sounds somewhat dire to have a few marines vs atleast the same number of Roaches or masses of speedlings, its not that bad. To prepare for either, it is advisable to wall using multiple layers of buildings and have at least one bunker on top of your ramp with some SCVs to mass repair.
The various types of RRs will probably hit between when your Expo CC is 1/2 way done and when you morph an OC/float out. Likewise, a BB will come in a similar timing window.
Beware of offbeat timings because Zerg doesn't have the build down
After Zerg Attacks, you are now in one of several situations:
1) You either died which I can't really help you with. 2) Zerg busted (burst) through your wall but somehow you survived with heavy losses. 3) Zerg tried to bust and did moderate damage to you. You lost some buildings/units/scvs but you manage to hold. 4) Zerg bust failed completely. 5) Zerg saw you were prepared and is camping in your natural.
For case 2 there is a good possibility of a follow up attack. Prepare the best you can given your circumstances. These situations are highly dependent on your experience and the map so it would be hard to give specific advice. If you do manage to hold on, you will probably be behind and will need to resort to some sort of harass via drops or banshees. Remember that you can call down mules in your main and build extra SCVs with your CC if it is still alive.
For case 3 Zerg better zergs may elect to expo because they did enough damage to you to put you back abit. You will need to scout/scan to see if zerg is planning a follow up. In the case of an expo, you can probably float your expo CC out if it is alive still. If you continue with this build, you will be producing from 5 Rax equivalent so a counter attack is possible if Zerg traded his army and expoed.
For case 4, Zerg will either suicide vainly to win or Expo. Just expo and don't lose your advantage in a silly way. If you killed many units, your first big push will likely end the game.
For case 5, you can typically push out with your army after a little bit and take your natural. Because Zerg invested in a large ground army, a few banshees may be useful to have instead of pure ravens may be a good choice.
Zerg's second base will kick in before you can your non-stop marine spamming machine going. This can be dangerous as you may not expect it and your 'scary' poke can be wiped out with Zerg still having enough units to counter. One solution to this is getting several siege tanks before putting down your dual Starports. This is listed below in the variation section.
Used in Pokebunny's reps. There is some excess gas build up that occurs before your SPs get down. You can take advantage of this by throwing down a second Ebay after you get out to 4 Rax. The only problem is that you do end up using slightly more gas than your can produce off two base so you may have to make a round of medivacs if you are low on gas.
Used in KME's 2nd rep pack. Instead of immediately going 2 port ravens, get a tech lab on your factory and get siege and tanks. This takes advantage of the gas build up before you are able to really pump out of your two ports. You won't be able to go mass raven but will have a more balanced medivac/tank/raven + mass marine army.
Conservative 2 Rax Delayed Double Gas by Me (AntisocialMunky) + Show Spoiler +
- 10 Depot - 12 Rax - 13 Rax (or whenever you have the first 150) - 15 Orbital (should get your 150 as soon as the first rax finishes) * Continuous Marines, Poke at 2-4 Marines. May take some SCVs for a bunker rush. - 2nd Depot - 2nd CC at 400 min - Double Gas - 2 Rax + Tech lab - Start Stim and then CS when you have the gas. - Ebay - Factory + Double Gas - Tech to 2 Starport with tech labs.
You can probably swap the CC and the 2nd depot depending on your preference. The main advantage of this build is that you get more marines that most Z's will suspect early game and fairly fast ravens. A very similar build was used in game 1 by + Show Spoiler +
Fake Boxer to counter FruitDealer's 14 Hatch
in GSL2. The main disadvantage is that this is at the cost to your mid game marine count and tech. You will largely only have unupgraded marines and won't be able to control the map as effectively as with KME's build.
Due to the lowered unit count in the mid game, you will probably want to play more defensively unless you were able to do damage to the zerg.
With this opening, there is a timing right before lings at out on a 14 hatch when you can get 3-4 marines to the Zerg Expo. You can bunker rush if you feel like it.
This build will give you an extremely strong wall. You will be able to wall off with a depot and 2 rax. You will also have the option of using your CC as part of your wall. Moving out to take your third may be tricky with your low unit count so getting a quick factory and some sort of siege expand may be required. Just mule and saturate your minerals in the mean time.
With this build you should be fairly safe from a RR since you will be constantly producing marines out of two barracks. You should have more than enough units to counter a RR. You will still probably want to place a bunker.
If you don't like either of these builds, do a FE that you like. You will need 2 bases for this to work. However you get there, the unit composition requires you to get your expo up rather quickly. This is much like the original SK Terran build that this is based off where Terran built up for a big push off two bases.
There are several overwriting things to keep in mind with this build.
First, you must not be afraid of venturing out of your base to punish the zerg. If you FE against the zerg FE, you are on an even footing and in some cases may out produce zerg. The whole build works because you trade armies with the zerg. This trading is in Terran's advantage for two reasons:
One reason is that Zerg's macro mechanic only allows them to increase production capacity. This in turn allows Zerg to power econ by not building offensive units. However, if you continually trade armies, zerg must rebuild units instead of drones limiting their econ.
The other reason is that the mass marine army is obviously mineral bound while zerg's army is gas bound. Every scary zerg unit requires some sort of gas. Thus you are in effect trading minerals for gas when you trade armies. This slows tech and limits the amount of scary units that zerg can build. The fact that your marine army is mineral bound and the Terran macro mechanic of 'givemee more minerals now' allows Terran to support a ridiculous number of raxes while not slowing tech or cutting workers. If you are constantly aggressive and have some map control, you can also reduce the amount of scans you need and maximize mule minerals. Good marine positioning can easily detect or intercept zerg armies as well.
Second, you must control the creep. Creep is essential for Zerg to defend expos, keep tabs on your army, and gain position on your army. It also decreases the effectiveness of zerg units. Believe me, banelings off creep are MUCH less scary than on creep with or without speed.
Third, you must keep your ravens alive at all costs. You can usually do great in the early game with just marines. A sufficient number of Marines can feasibly trade relatively evenly with armies of just small numbers of roaches, lings, and blings. However, once mass roach, hydras, mutas, and infestors are out, the cost effectiveness of the mass marine army wanes without auto-turret, HSM, and PDD support. Your raven fleet also begins to snow ball once you reach a critical mass of about 7 and you can start picking apart the zerg with HSM, auto turret harass, or auto turret slow push into their natural.
Fourth, your big push will come out right as Zerg's third pops but before he really saturates it. On most maps, you must deny this expo and get your own third up. Or else you will burn out or zerg will begin to field sufficient mid-late game untis to deal with your marine and raven spam. Sufficient Infestor numbers are one of the major concerns that you must worry about. They can lock down and trap your ravens as well as demolish large chunks of you marine army.
This is one of the more common builds near the top of the ladder. Muta/Ling/Bling with Fast Third Base + Show Spoiler +
This build aims to get a quick third using fast mutas/blings/speedlings to gain map control and exploit more immobile terrans.
This is one of the dominant styles of play. However, this Marine/Raven is more or less a direct counter and is designed as such. A fast third means zerg will not be able to apply more than a token amount of pressure. You have timings that abuse zerg's minimal unit counts with the 20 marine poke and the 30 marine + raven push so abuse the heck out of them. You can usually barrel down the zerg and continually apply pressure until zerg burns out on his 2.5 bases.
Zerg may start planting hatches due to the amount of minerals that start building up. You can ignore them until they get decent drone count up.
Any other?
2 Builds These build are typically encountered on maps with short rush distances or against less experienced players. + Show Spoiler +
This is basically the same style as above except that zerg will use the full force of 2/3 larva injected hatches to counter your style of play with massive air and ground armies. You will no longer be able to secure as favorable trades because your army advantage is smaller. In fact zerg may be able to get the better of you by killing your armies and supplementing their survivors with reinforcements for a counter. Large amounts of muta are especially bothersome because they can quickly counter attack your mineral line after a big army trade. Try to expand into a third base somewhere and prevent zerg from destroying your army and getting its own third up.
To be successful playing Marine Raven, you must be more deliberate in your decision making and not be too overly aggressive. The trading theorycrafting still holds true but Zerg may be able to macro so many units that you will have a hard time. A slow push or contain with bunkers and auto turret fields is a good idea. Keep the map scouted and decreeped the best you can. The addition of units such as Thors and tanks are definitely options to deal with the ground army or the mutas respectively.
It shouldn't be too difficult to play against but it is definitely not as straight forward as the more conventional muta/ling with a fast third.
Roach + Hydra + X This is a fairly dangerous composition to deal with. It has fairly high retention and you can end up losing your whole raven fleet quite easily. Frequently X = a sprinkling of roaches or banelings. + Show Spoiler +
I've seen this as a standard transition or a Roach Rush transition. This is more difficult to counter with pure marine/raven. You can combat this with pure marine/raven but getting some marauders, hellions, or tanks is a good idea. Auto Turrets are much less usable due to the front loaded damage of Roaches and Hydras. You will need to favor PPD and HSM and delay your pushes accordingly until your ravens have enough energy. You will really want to control creep spread to reduce the mobility of this army.
The main strength of this build vs marine raven is retention of units. Roaches are very robust and Hydras are very damaging. The addition of both infestors and banelings only make matters worse. This army can also reach a critical mass where it becomes very difficult to deal with. (See Idra during the Beta) There are weaknesses as well, the army is relatively immobile off creep compared to muta/ling and your own army. The army is costly to mass and Zerg and takes longer to rebuild thank yours.
Proper raven micro can help you greatly as well. Ravens fall quite quickly to hydras so keep them in the rear. Casting one or two PDDs before your ravens fly in to support is a good habit to have and don't be afraid to cast it above your marines as it s radius is larger than you think. Likewise case HSM from behind your units so your ravens can quickly retreat.
Fast Infestors This can be a rude surprise when you run into it the first time. + Show Spoiler +
A fast Infestor will come out before your first raven and basically destroy your first push. If you spot an infestation pit, you need to be very careful. Typically getting this tech quickly will force Zerg to stay on two base so see above. HSM is good for picking off an isolated infestor but you usually won't have it up for the first big push unless you delay your push. Be sure to spread your units out!
Infestors... This are hard to deal with but they come in small numbers due to their high gas cost. If you were just to theory craft, you would think these counter everything in the marine raven composition. With low numbers, Z really needs to get off key fungal growths on both the ravens and your army to win so don't let them do that. You need to play a little more cautious. The key thing to know is where the Infestors are. Limit creep spread, snipe Infestors when you can. If you have to lose a bunch of marines to take out an Infestor, do it because zerg can't replace them all that well and still afford large amounts of other units.
In my experience the best solution is slow turret pushes. Keep your marines back and crawl with turrets. Force Zerg to fight your fight and not his. If zerg does get another expo up and start to go mass infestor, you should have have your third up for a while and getting ready to take #4(see KME's game on lost temple). Also you may want to bring a few SCVs with your army to fix up your ravens since they do tend to clump and Zerg usually does manage to get a few fungals on them.
Also, I think it goes without saying that Medivacs are quite useful in this situation.
Eh, this is not that fun to play. You really need to be careful with your ravens and keep marines with them. Just know that their ground army is weaker. I'm not really sure how feasible this comp is off 2 bases though.
This isn't actually as scary. Ultras/Broodlords quite frankly just aren't that great in the low numbers that result from not being able to stockpile gas. If you see a few brood lords, you can HSM it or surround them with auto turrets (funny). Really, as long as you have your macro up, don't lost everything you have, and have atleast even bases and Zerg is throwing gas units at you, shouldn't have too much problem with late game units.
IMPORTANT: Don't forget upgrades. Marines throw out so much DPS at 3/3 that even ultras fall quite quickly to them.
You can use two or three turrets to block or narrow a ramp. Zerg will have to spend two or three banelings to break it down quickly. It is a good way to delay lings from pursuing your marines up a ramp or force roaches/hydras to stop and shoot for about a second or two.
Turret Behind the Minerals
Turrets behind the minerals is one of the most basic uses for Raven harass. Positioning turrets like this makes them extremely hard to attack with melee units effectively and the long lifespan of each turret denies mining for 3/4 minutes. If left alone long enough both geysers and hatches will die to turret fire.
Baneling Splitting Tricks with Diagrams Coming Soon + Show Spoiler +
You can support a max of 600 min/minute and about 250 gas/minute off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
This replay is me fighting a zerg that goes all-in and elects to get massive armies instead of econ. The play quite frankly wasn't that great but it demonstrates a fairly decent early game up to the failed 1st raven push. This also demonstrates the flexibility of 2 base mass marine play since I was experimenting with working in a drop with the first attack. http://www.filefront.com/17452525/TerranOP.SC2Replay
Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you! edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate?
I've also been working on this and it seems if you add some tanks into the mix (Bw style :D) it is quite good. The main thing you MUST look out for are infestors. Infestor Bling will totally kill this style of play, so the main thing is you have to deny the zerg a 4th gas (like BW) so they can't get many infestors with a good sized ling count. Later I usually add medivacs.
What about adding hellions into the mix? They're minerals only and they'll destroy the blings better than marines can.
My concerns with this build are Brood Lords and Infestors. I saw fungal growth in one game and it was effective, but NP is a bigger concern. If he uses an HSM against you then you'd be in trouble.
On October 25 2010 14:33 TurtlePerson2 wrote: What about adding hellions into the mix? They're minerals only and they'll destroy the blings better than marines can.
My concerns with this build are Brood Lords and Infestors. I saw fungal growth in one game and it was effective, but NP is a bigger concern. If he uses an HSM against you then you'd be in trouble.
haha as in he mind control all the raven and blow themselves up? xD sounds pretty potent.
good read, and i'd love to bring SK terran back =] question - do you combine this with drop play too?
btw, don't think roach hydra would do much - if you see that you can easily swap out for extra marauders, and marines/HSM/PDD should do fine against hydras if you position nicely. actually, you might even be able to flank the slower hydras and force them to run from a HSM into a marine ball.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
Wow really nice job <3, the quality of this made my night. I'm just a bit curious, would ultras stop this or do you plan to HSM them before they can do damage?
Chill needs to sticky this. Not only is the strategy good, with supplemental builds, but it's also a very organized, well thought out post. I definitely want to try this strategy out in practice and maybe take it to the ladder if it works out.
On October 25 2010 14:28 NiTrOuS wrote: I've also been working on this and it seems if you add some tanks into the mix (Bw style :D) it is quite good. The main thing you MUST look out for are infestors. Infestor Bling will totally kill this style of play, so the main thing is you have to deny the zerg a 4th gas (like BW) so they can't get many infestors with a good sized ling count. Later I usually add medivacs.
with proper micro, u can use auto turrets to soak up the baneling damage.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Wait, really? You should be warned for this post, maybe banned. Also, since pdd stop hydra shots, and you're going to constantly be removing zergs creep, I would imagine that Hydra's are the worst thing to counter this style of play, but that's just theorycrafting, since I haven't tried this yet.
As for roaches, you can easily get marauders quickly if need be, and then abuse his base with banshees, which i'm assuming you will need to get late-game anyway since that's the best counter to infestors Terran has.
not gonna lie, was extremely skeptical about this strategy because i just assumed bane lings absolutely rape marines. In the reps u lost quite a bit of marines but u made great use the the auto turret and especially HSM. Very nice play. I also like that this isn't the typical terran play of gimmicky harass that hasn't worked since 1.1.2 making this a much needed change-up to the TvZ matchup. edit : also lol at the zerg tears from the last reps against hasua or whatever.
I generally go infestor heavy if I scout terran going bio that late in the game. Still it would be interesting seeing this build being used as opposed to the standard hellion rush into banshee into expansion + thors.
I've been meaning to try to go baneling + infestor + queen (and a handfull of roach) when I see this type of play. Baneling infestor easily counterys heavy marine, infestor + queen fights off raven packs (and roach to clean up auto-turrets) and extra queens also help to re-spread lost creep tumors. If played defensively while expanding, you would be at minimal risk of raven harassment, just fungal growth and kill with queens.
Raven marine is harder to stop than you would think, but with practice it becomes less scary I think. If terran adds in a few vikings to hunt overlords it makes it harder for Z to expo and drone as freely without having enough scouting info to do so safely.
I've modified the build since the two months I've been using it (I don't cut marine/scv anymore so the CC is around 22-23 food) but I like the ability to harass zerg with hellions better than going only rax CC, and it doesn't have problems with baneling bust or roach rush because there aren't any supply depots in my wall.
I also favor getting 2 rax with techlabs so I can make a couple of marauders, it's a lot more reliable to tank banelings with 4-5 marauders in front rather than trying to micro against them with pure marine.
is there a reason why you get combat shield first? just from briefly watching the first two reps, it seems as if you got stim first, and pushed as combat shields are finishing (possibly with a medivac, although i don't know) you could put a lot of hurt on a 14 hatching zerg who is light on defense like that, plus you could actually micro against the lings.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
PDD stops roach's attacks? I thought it only works on projectile which does not include the acid attack of the roach.
nope, PDD doesn't stop roach attacks. it stops hydra attacks, although the hydras attack ridiculously fast. however, with enough PDD down, it'll buy you those critical seconds for a stimmed marine ball to rip through some stuff.
This definitely looks pretty cool. I can imagine battles where the zerg tries to bait hunter seeker missiles, point defense drones, and autoturrets while taking minimal damage and keeping the creep alive to maximize the potency of these attacks. It would makes for some interesting micro wars.
I do worry about infestors though. Any infestor heavy build could give this a really hard time, since all it would take is four (or five less well-timed) fungal growths to turn your expensive raven fleet into dust, and it doesn't help that infestors are also extremely effectively against marines too. It might be worthwhile to sacrifice a portion of that raven fleet and invest in a few ghosts to deal with infestors if they start popping out in significant numbers.
thanks alot for this post. those first 4 reps were posted on my thread about TvZ but the mods said something about martyrs and closed it. I think this is a cool build and i need to try it
Mass ravens are truly difficult to deal with. But if I were to theory-craft a little, the trick (as Zerg) is to understand that Ravens do not have infinite energy. Yes they can build a wall of 150hp high dps auto-turrets that stop a push in its tracks. Yes they can put up 3 PDDs to nullify swarms of corrupters, mutas, queens and hydras. Yes they can use HSM to disperse flocks of mutablings.
But they can't do all that at once. HSM = 125 energy. PDD = 100 energy. Auto turret = 50 energy. A raven has 200 energy max, and likely a squad of ravens are not all at full energy if a push is done once say... the 4th raven is completed. Forcing a PDD means 2 less turrets. Forcing a HSM means no PDD and only 1 turret. Forcing tons of turrets means no PDD and no HSM.
What can you do to force raven energy use? Probably the same way Muta harass force marines to stim. (i.e. once you see the stim go off, fly away and let the medivac drain their energy). This means engaging the ravens in the open. Engaging in the open means you cannot be on your base, because there is no way to retreat. Threaten hits on the marine/raven ball with ling/bling then run away as turrets fall and HSMs are launched. FG the ravens and run in the hydras, forcing PDDs and autoturrets, then pull back.
Edit: Oh, and get the armor upgrades, because turrets and marines deal dmg via small and rapid attacks. Which makes armor upgrades worth it.
How does this work without medivacs? I haven't watched the replays yet but to me that seems like the biggest flaw. What's to stop the Zerg from just using fungal growth and just walking away from the marines.
On October 25 2010 15:50 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: is there a reason why you get combat shield first? just from briefly watching the first two reps, it seems as if you got stim first, and pushed as combat shields are finishing (possibly with a medivac, although i don't know) you could put a lot of hurt on a 14 hatching zerg who is light on defense like that, plus you could actually micro against the lings.
The reason for combat shield first is that at a time you still won't have medivacs. Also it researches 30 seconds faster then stim which syncs nicely with +1 upgrade from ebay.
will definately give this a try. Im out of options right now so il try anything.
Ive tried bunker rushing, to which the zerg responds by just building his expo elsewhere with his scouting drone.
Ive tried proxy hidden barracks + bunkers, he ling rushes my main.
Ive tried hellion thor fast expand, roach muta rapes me.
I wont even talk about tanks and banshees. Overall i think this could work. Partly because this build is mineral intensive but mostly because you can rebuild at the same rate as zerg if not faster. Thanks for this buddy. Will definately give it try when i get home tonight.
this build really is epic. a couple things people are missing about this build, is that is forces the zerg to go baneling to deal with the marines. but your macro is really sick. also whats impressive is how easily you can harrass the zerg third or fourth expo. i am going to have to start using this build. please, post more reps.
also you have got to get those durable material upgrade for this build!! HSM rocks mutas! lol.
also a good upgrade would be air armor. youre a better player than me, but i saw that you did have the money for these upgrades
LOL, game 7 is freaking hilarious. the zergs often think they outplay their opponent, and cry when they lose. that being said, i heard from a blizzard source I have that the zerg winrate on the ladder is over 60 percent since the patch.
LOL, game 7 is freaking hilarious. the zergs often think they outplay their opponent, and cry when they lose. that being said, i heard from a blizzard source I have that the zerg winrate on the ladder is over 60 percent since the patch.
that wouldnt surprise me man. Zerg matchups are tough lately. I just cant seem to get armies back up quick enough to fend off the 2nd sometimes third push while doing my best to deny expos. This early economy buff just leaves me in the dust lol
I'm really curious as to how to handle Infestors. Is there a specific replay that shows the zerg going heavy Infestors? Or could someone provide a text answer?
i would imagine having maybe 1 or 2 ghosts would help in that case and it wouldnt be that hard to get since you should have enough gas and you will already have enough raxes to keep marines pumping.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Wait, really? You should be warned for this post, maybe banned. Also, since pdd stop hydra shots, and you're going to constantly be removing zergs creep, I would imagine that Hydra's are the worst thing to counter this style of play, but that's just theorycrafting, since I haven't tried this yet.
As for roaches, you can easily get marauders quickly if need be, and then abuse his base with banshees, which i'm assuming you will need to get late-game anyway since that's the best counter to infestors Terran has.
My god please do not post if you're going to suggest someone be banned, when you have utterly no idea. Roach Hydra is fine vs this. I've lost to this build before but only as it took me by surprise, and it was a little modified.
PDD are not worth it vs Hydras really as they shoot so fast. Back in beta roach/hydra was a really good build, until they fixed siege tank splash dmg. If you dont use siege tanks however, roach/hydra combined with a few infestors will be pretty good vs most of other terran strategies.
just watched some of the replays, and I'm in love, with this build you can actually keep up with teh mobility of the zerg =D and man auto turrets = base rape!!!
I really doubt the logic that army trades hurt zerg's drone production. It seems like after each trade, there's a window for droning or expanding when your army should be small enough that zerg can get away with delaying unit production to squeeze out more economy. Especially since banelings can be so effective against marines.
Tried it, wanted to like it, got absolutely demolished by infestors. Fielding large numbers of medvacs isn't possible with this strat, but you can't survive against even a small number of infestors without them - it's a serious catch-22 =( I'll watch your reps and see if you're doing something that I wasn't...
On October 25 2010 20:34 Reki wrote: After watching 5 replays I just realized something. The # of scvs was always either = or > than the # of drones. How the fuck is this happening!?!
Pretty sure attrition comes into play here as the Zerg is forced to constantly produce army units as opposed to power droning due to the constant stream of Terran infantry and expansion harassment. The fact that the Raven produces disposable units seems to create a buffer that really narrows the window of opportunity for power droning into the mid-game.
Really looking forward to trying this. The early expansion possibility has me drooling.
*edit: Not to mention that it exclusively involves my 2 favorite Terran units.
Just a quick note as a Zerg player playing Terran now and then:
Fighting with Infestors against mass Ravens utilizing HSM & Turrets just a bit efficient is definitly not cost effective for Zerg, even if you are able to shoot a few Ravens down with infested Marines you will lose many Infestors in the process. Zergs main problem is the constant Larvae requirement for many many ling/bling to stop your Marines. Roaches (&+Hydras) are no option to counter upgraded Marines + HSM, as a switch to Banshees is totally crushing you if you go massive Roaches and HSM + 3/3 Marines decimates your Hydra count quite well, especially off creep (and creep will be rare with so many Ravens around). Keep in mind Roach/Hydra is a very expensive unit composition. Mutalisk is also not an viable option, obviously because of the many Marines around and one well placed HSM makes you lose the game.
Only thing to counter that for Zerg would be Muta/Broodlord + a composition of Roaches and Ling/Bling. But it's hard teching to Broodlords with that much Autoturrets at your mineral fields and those Marines you have to spend all your Larvae on. And every fight you win means you just set him back a few inches into the next wall of upgraded Bunkers and Autoturrets.
As Terran, this is my new default style of playing vs Zerg (although I like building a 2:1 mix Raven/Banshee + a few Battlecruisers now and then or getting some Ghosts + many many Nukes in my ground mix). As it pressures the Zerg into using up all of his resources - Minerals, Gas, Larvae and Creep. Fight Zerg with Zerg tactics
With a few Banshees I imagine this could be very problematic to Protoss too. But I don't have much experience with TvP.
Wow, thanks for all the encouragement guys :D. Let me answer a few questions and edit the OP.
On October 25 2010 14:15 TheAntZ wrote: Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you! edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate?
Nah, that's KME's account. I did most of the theory crafting and haven't had a chance to play that much. Plus he seems to be more aggressive. I usually poke and them go for a big 2 base push.
On October 25 2010 14:49 n3mo wrote: good read, and i'd love to bring SK terran back =] question - do you combine this with drop play too?
btw, don't think roach hydra would do much - if you see that you can easily swap out for extra marauders, and marines/HSM/PDD should do fine against hydras if you position nicely. actually, you might even be able to flank the slower hydras and force them to run from a HSM into a marine ball.
Yes, infact the first thing I do when I get a SP + tech lab is build a medivac while researching raven energy. Not sure if this is the best idea but I go for mass auto turrets. I think you can do drop play quite well in this build. However, due to the low number of zerg bases, I think you can go without it.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
Quite true, KME's Jungle Basin game I believe had the zerg cycling through 2-3 different army comps and this was the last one. I do find this one of the harder comps to deal with because Hydras can shoot up. You need good reaction time for putting down the PDD's with your ravens. I haven't yet seen a pure Roach/Hydra mix like Idra from the beta so I can't comment on holding off MASS MASS roach hydra. However, if they do, its pretty much do or die for Zerg. If they can't secure their third, they definitely won't be able to keep it up. Also note that this army is immobile without creep so you can take your bases in relative safety compared to muta builds.
On October 25 2010 15:33 shakenbake wrote: not gonna lie, was extremely skeptical about this strategy because i just assumed bane lings absolutely rape marines. In the reps u lost quite a bit of marines but u made great use the the auto turret and especially HSM. Very nice play. I also like that this isn't the typical terran play of gimmicky harass that hasn't worked since 1.1.2 making this a much needed change-up to the TvZ matchup. edit : also lol at the zerg tears from the last reps against hasua or whatever.
Thank KME for the reps. Yeah, banelings aren't too bad. Every baneling is a roach that Z can't build and 4 is a muta they can't build. I usually try to split my army into 3 pieces to deal with it. You can HSM a baneling army or drop a turret to bait it. Other options include macroing your butt off and just throwing men at zerg until he's out of banelings.
On October 25 2010 15:50 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: is there a reason why you get combat shield first? just from briefly watching the first two reps, it seems as if you got stim first, and pushed as combat shields are finishing (possibly with a medivac, although i don't know) you could put a lot of hurt on a 14 hatching zerg who is light on defense like that, plus you could actually micro against the lings.
I personally usually get Combat Shield first. However, stim is good to sue against banelings. I was told by KME that he went shield first for his initial push since those are his reps. Either one is good really. But my rationale is that you can't really afford to use a lot of stim without the medivacs.
On October 25 2010 16:13 drdovetalk wrote: Mass ravens are truly difficult to deal with. But if I were to theory-craft a little, the trick (as Zerg) is to understand that Ravens do not have infinite energy. Yes they can build a wall of 150hp high dps auto-turrets that stop a push in its tracks. Yes they can put up 3 PDDs to nullify swarms of corrupters, mutas, queens and hydras. Yes they can use HSM to disperse flocks of mutablings.
But they can't do all that at once. HSM = 125 energy. PDD = 100 energy. Auto turret = 50 energy. A raven has 200 energy max, and likely a squad of ravens are not all at full energy if a push is done once say... the 4th raven is completed. Forcing a PDD means 2 less turrets. Forcing a HSM means no PDD and only 1 turret. Forcing tons of turrets means no PDD and no HSM.
What can you do to force raven energy use? Probably the same way Muta harass force marines to stim. (i.e. once you see the stim go off, fly away and let the medivac drain their energy). This means engaging the ravens in the open. Engaging in the open means you cannot be on your base, because there is no way to retreat. Threaten hits on the marine/raven ball with ling/bling then run away as turrets fall and HSMs are launched. FG the ravens and run in the hydras, forcing PDDs and autoturrets, then pull back.
Edit: Oh, and get the armor upgrades, because turrets and marines deal dmg via small and rapid attacks. Which makes armor upgrades worth it.
Well you usually don't need that much raven energy. As long as you don't over do it before the point zerg starts to burn out. I actually don't find HSM all that useful outside of sniping units and PDD is very situational vs mutas and very easy to determine when to use vs a immobile hydra army. I personally just throw auto turrets down while I camp outside Z's bases. I do this so I can control where his mutas are. I think the correct response with mutas is that since they come out around when my push does, they need to attack my base and keep me from getting past the half way point on the map.
As for infestor/hydra, good luck getting enough of both those units to get it to work off 2 bases.
On October 25 2010 18:40 Victim wrote: I really doubt the logic that army trades hurt zerg's drone production. It seems like after each trade, there's a window for droning or expanding when your army should be small enough that zerg can get away with delaying unit production to squeeze out more economy. Especially since banelings can be so effective against marines.
Well it depends on the map. For larger maps this is true, but I've experienced that if I start trading with 20-30 marines, I will have the same amount macroed up at my base to throw at Zerg.
BTW - If anyone wants to contribute with more Marine/Raven replays and other ideas, you are welcome to PM me or post in this thread. If anyone has any BW adaptations of builds especially a workable mech vs toss, PM me ;D
If you don't plan on using factory to produce anything, you could use it to make reactors for barracs or even techlabs for starports if are feeling fancy. This way you won't lose that much marine/raven production time while getting a addon for them.
On October 25 2010 22:23 n0xi3 wrote: Quality post for sure. I like you're builds... but I think that aggressive bling early game could just destroy this...
Maybe i would have to toy with it wrong. I am just not sure how safe this is from early pressure.
Are you talking about a bust? If so, you can do my 2 Rax variant and wall with 2 Rax and your CC.
On October 25 2010 22:41 Mehukannu wrote: If you don't plan on using factory to produce anything, you could use it to make reactors for barracs or even techlabs for starports if are feeling fancy. This way you won't lose that much marine/raven production time while getting a addon for them.
Yeah, one thing I want to try is to get the timing on my rax research to be done when my SPs are built, that way if I build another tech lab on my factory, I can just swap both onto my ports.
Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote: Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.
On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote: Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.
Fungal range > marine range. I put 2 fungal on the marines that are in the back, preferably in a tight spot. Then I run in with speed banelings. Your entire army is gone while I run into your economy. gg.
Not viable. I've never ever ever ever seen a good TvZ where T was able to win with bio while remaining cost-effective (i.e. no far ahead of Z)
oh, another question: have you tried using double ebay for upgrades? since you want 3/3 marines and the raven upgrades from the ebay, it might be useful, although im not sure 2 base would have the gas to support that continuously researching.
nice build! will definitely try this out, and use at as my standard TvZ. but.. can you post some replays of you playing? I would really like to see how you play this type of play.
On October 25 2010 23:21 n3mo wrote: oh, another question: have you tried using double ebay for upgrades? since you want 3/3 marines and the raven upgrades from the ebay, it might be useful, although im not sure 2 base would have the gas to support that continuously researching.
You can run through about 2 upgrades before raven come up. These should be atleast one of the infantry ups. I don't really know if you really need to double upgrade early. You can probably throw down your armory and another e-bay when you start setting your third up. On the subject of upgrades, you can get ship plating for your ravens and go into BC mode later for so kicks if you so desire.
On October 25 2010 14:15 TheAntZ wrote: Your analysis of why the build works and your description of everything is amazing. Awesome read, thank you! edit: your name means book in russian, is that deliberate?
Nah, that's KME's account. I did most of the theory crafting and haven't had a chance to play that much. Plus he seems to be more aggressive. I usually poke and them go for a big 2 base push.
In serbian language knjiga also means book and yes that's My acc .
On October 25 2010 22:51 ChickenLips wrote: Yes yes, please play pure marine on the ground. I will just sling/bling/infestor and lol with great cost-efficiency through your army, one of the few compositions that allow me to do that.
Like I said, sling and bling without creep is the easiest comp to beat ^_^. I dunno, maybe if you never get mutas, you can try and bulldoze your way into victory.
Fungal range > marine range. I put 2 fungal on the marines that are in the back, preferably in a tight spot. Then I run in with speed banelings. Your entire army is gone while I run into your economy. gg.
Not viable. I've never ever ever ever seen a good TvZ where T was able to win with bio while remaining cost-effective (i.e. no far ahead of Z)
Each infestor costs 150 gas, that is the gas price of 6 banelings. You assume that marines will sit there waiting for you to fungal them and you also forgot about ravens. There are micro possibilities on both sides to reduce/optimize the damage. No one said that this strategy beats zerg 100% but you can watch the reps and see. I think in almost all games zergs use infestors and even manage to do heavy damage but in the end there were just too many marines :D.
I ran across and 1800+ Terran on the ladder last night (1700 Zerg here) using this strat. The thing I found to hurt him was that the strat just didn't prepare him well for a big macro playstyle. I saw an FE, I went for my gold and just macro'd up roaches/hydras after not scouting tanks. His army was being cost effective, but I just had too much stuff and he couldn't hold ground.
Something he did have however that was not mentioned in the OP was a quite nice harassment that attempted to tie up my larva use. -Using the starport, made 2x vikings knows that I was going roach/hydra instead of muta to harass OL's. -Really nice dual drops with a medvac at my main and turrets from ravens at my expo.
I really like where this strat is going. I feel like there are some cute little timing attacks that can be fine tuned within this build, good work.
On October 25 2010 23:54 GlocKomA wrote: I ran across and 1800+ Terran on the ladder last night (1700 Zerg here) using this strat. The thing I found to hurt him was that the strat just didn't prepare him well for a big macro playstyle. I saw an FE, I went for my gold and just macro'd up roaches/hydras after not scouting tanks. His army was being cost effective, but I just had too much stuff and he couldn't hold ground.
Something he did have however that was not mentioned in the OP was a quite nice harassment that attempted to tie up my larva use. -Using the starport, made 2x vikings knows that I was going roach/hydra instead of muta to harass OL's. -Really nice dual drops with a medvac at my main and turrets from ravens at my expo.
I really like where this strat is going. I feel like there are some cute little timing attacks that can be fine tuned within this build, good work.
Is there any way we could get some replays of this strategy against a few common Zerg openers besides FE? If at all possible, I'd just like to see how one would handle roach rushes and baneling busts. Reading upwards it looks like the simplest transition is 2 rax before expansion, but do you stick with marines and bunker or keep the SCVs on the gas and get some marauders to hold the line? For heavy roach play would you just swap to banshees rather than ravens? For hydra would you swap the reactor to the factory and get some hellion roasting in?
Sorry if my questions seem overzealous, I just really want to wrap my head around this build.
How coincidental Considering how imba Z is right now, especially versus T, I have been experimenting with mass ravens, marines/med/tank as well...as it's the only thing that really seems viable long term...and even then, it still gets raped from Zergs.
The only problem of why this will never work versus a good Zerg is because HSM is so slow that they always can run their entire ling/muta/baneling/roach ball directly into your army and suicide it, and the HSMs actually help them more than you.
It has some potential though...
Here are some replays: Starting into mass raven if I remember right. Manage to kill lots of banelings with HSM, but that was more or less the Zerg's bad control than me doing something good.
Unlike irradiate, HSM leaves the game in the hands of your opponent after it's cast
I think I didn't pay attention for 1 split second, if I remember right...and lost 5000 marines. Otherwise this replay might be a mech replay lol. Can't remember. If it's mech, you can lol @ how hard zerg can crush that now too with late game ultras + neural.
This one is an incredibly long TvZ with marine/tank/raven/medivac into -> Zerg macros and defends -> muta harrasses you -> into you lose. Which is basically every TvZ this patch.
id like to see this vs some better zerg players.. also i think pickin just marine/raven is soo single minded, ravens def arent as good as sci vessels and i think that is gonna be a massive issue.
mutas/ling/bling with or without infestors easily own this build unless u can get a timing push in b4 mutas pop.
This looks horribly annoying for zerg to deal with, as mass rines can really come out fast and en masse, and are just so good against zerg except blings/infestors.
On October 26 2010 01:30 PhiliBiRD wrote: id like to see this vs some better zerg players.. also i think pickin just marine/raven is soo single minded, ravens def arent as good as sci vessels and i think that is gonna be a massive issue.
mutas/ling/bling with or without infestors easily own this build unless u can get a timing push in b4 mutas pop.
You clearly did not watch ANY of the replays. His entire army was consistently being destroyed by Blings/Lings/Mutas but since he had like 10 raxes with reactors he was able to consistently pump out entire new armies in moments, with only minerals. While Ravens never lose their purpose of awesome HSM's and whatnot. Muta's are worthless, if even ONE HSM hits a muta ball, they'll lose. Blings are good, but you're trading out a relatively expensive unit (especially in terms of gas) while losing your entire army. And by the time you do that, they already have an entire new army coming. I've tried this a few times in Plat, am 1-1 with it. Lost it because I was cocky. It just overwhelms the zerg, because as OP put it, they need to delay their tech and spend a BUNCH of gas to just hold off the pressure. And once you have like 80 marines and 8 ravens late game, there is no stopping it. Just put auto turret walls in front, and lol as banelings are useless.
On October 26 2010 01:20 Pixelcat wrote: Maybe get a ghost out for the infestors but not sure exactly how that works out. I like the approach and the upgraded marines are awesome.
This is also what I am currently thinking because infestors are becoming a main concern of this build. Ghosts using EMP against infestors would make them somewhat useless. The main concern of using Ghosts would be the cost of it on top of the Raven. Another concern would be the micro of both the Ghosts and the Infestors. If the infestor can use Fungal Growth on the marine - ghost army, the problem is still there. There should be others but by addressing these concerns, it might just be able to make the build stronger. I'm gonna keep trying this strat later because I really like Ravens!
I see you using HSM on lone infestors later in the game. This seems wasteful. Wouldn't it be better to swap some of those ravens out for ghosts? I saw a ghost academy go down in one of the games but no ghosts were produced.
On October 26 2010 01:57 Hail Eris wrote: I see you using HSM on lone infestors later in the game. This seems wasteful. Wouldn't it be better to swap some of those ravens out for ghosts? I saw a ghost academy go down in one of the games but no ghosts were produced.
I would take a Raven personally. The Raven OHK's an Infestor with HSM, and if there is another next to it severely injures it. And then one minute later, can throw down two Auto Turrets or a PDD. A ghost would essentially lose its worth after it EMP's or Snipes an Infestor.
On October 26 2010 02:28 Raiden X wrote: Saw the replays and i think their is definite potential
Just some points:
More Medivacs-Medivac cut the effectiveness of infestor play. and isnt as gas heavy as people believe. Weren't BW medics 50/50?
More Stim Micro- you a-move alot of times
Plus i think you can push around 6:30 which comes before the baneling nest most times.
Medics cost 50/25.
And I feel pretty confident that Zergs will quickly learn to get a baneling nest asap whenever they scout a rax with a reactor pumping, or multiple raxes.
On October 26 2010 02:28 Raiden X wrote: Saw the replays and i think their is definite potential
Just some points:
More Medivacs-Medivac cut the effectiveness of infestor play. and isnt as gas heavy as people believe. Weren't BW medics 50/50?
More Stim Micro- you a-move alot of times
Plus i think you can push around 6:30 which comes before the baneling nest most times.
Well the lack of medivacs was more bad play on my part then part of the strategy :D. The exact amount that should be gotten would vary depending on the game.
What do you mean by stim micro? If you think about kiting I don't think it is worth it as marines have a very fast attack speed and you would lose a lot of DPS if you don't do it perfectly. If you think about general micro like spreading, retreating some while the others shoot etc. then yes, such things should be applied as much as possible. I'm not a pro .
As for ghosts, I think they could be added in late game since only a few are needed to cripple infestors and they can sort of soft counter ultras/BLs with snipe. In mid game he will need to cut banelings for every infestor so you should be able to just overpower him.
The good way to deal with infestors is to retreat when he tries to cast fungal (a lot of players will move their infestor forward to do this) but leave 4-5 marines, stim them and focus the infestor. He will either try to run away (you may still catch him) which will discourage him to do it next time (this shouldn't be neglected ), or he will be forced to waste a fungal on 4-5 marines. This strategy would definitely introduce a lot of micro wars.
On October 26 2010 00:28 avilo wrote: How coincidental Considering how imba Z is right now, especially versus T, I have been experimenting with mass ravens, marines/med/tank as well...as it's the only thing that really seems viable long term...and even then, it still gets raped from Zergs.
The only problem of why this will never work versus a good Zerg is because HSM is so slow that they always can run their entire ling/muta/baneling/roach ball directly into your army and suicide it, and the HSMs actually help them more than you.
It has some potential though...
Here are some replays: Starting into mass raven if I remember right. Manage to kill lots of banelings with HSM, but that was more or less the Zerg's bad control than me doing something good.
Unlike irradiate, HSM leaves the game in the hands of your opponent after it's cast
I think I didn't pay attention for 1 split second, if I remember right...and lost 5000 marines. Otherwise this replay might be a mech replay lol. Can't remember. If it's mech, you can lol @ how hard zerg can crush that now too with late game ultras + neural.
This one is an incredibly long TvZ with marine/tank/raven/medivac into -> Zerg macros and defends -> muta harrasses you -> into you lose. Which is basically every TvZ this patch.
You seem to have gone for a 1-1-1 with a FE. The thing about that vs mass marine is that you can't apply pressure. :-\
Looking at things from the Zerg side, this is a pretty interesting build.
Here are some of the things that Z could use against it.
Firstly, ling/roach is going to counter the marines well enough throughout early game, especially if Z can get ahead in upgrades, which is entirely possible.
I saw PDD mentioned earlier and would like to point out that PDD does NOTHING to Roaches.
While Roaches DO cost 25 gas, going with a 2:1 ratio means you're spending 125:25 for every 3 supply, which is very non-gas-intensive and can do well enough to get through the mid-game.
----
Adding Infestor or Blings will give you all the oomph you should need to hold the marines back indefinitely while you get some BLs or just beef up your production to a level you're happy with.
HSM is a great ability and I'm glad to see it being used more, but I don't think this completely nullifies Mutalisks either. Mutalisks out-run both Ravens and the HSM, so they could apply pressure back and could always use the misslies offensively by getting the mutas into the Raven ball and allowing the missile to hit, dealing huge damage to both sides.
----
One big aspect of this is going to be creep management. I think if executed properly, this can exploit the terrible mechanic that is creep movement bonus, hopefully to a point where Blizzard does something about the gimped Hydralisk (but now I'm just dreaming).
----
At any rate, this looks like a potent strategy that requires more than 1a out of the Terran player, so I wouldn't be completely pissed off if I lost to it personally.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Wait, really? You should be warned for this post, maybe banned. Also, since pdd stop hydra shots, and you're going to constantly be removing zergs creep, I would imagine that Hydra's are the worst thing to counter this style of play, but that's just theorycrafting, since I haven't tried this yet.
As for roaches, you can easily get marauders quickly if need be, and then abuse his base with banshees, which i'm assuming you will need to get late-game anyway since that's the best counter to infestors Terran has.
Sure, warn/ban me for posting the truth.
The whole point of mass ravens is exploiting the lack of GTA units of zerg because most don't build hydras. Roach attacks aren't affected by PDD, and easily counter marines. Ravens fly slow as shit and extremely expensive so every one you lose will cost you dearly.
You don't need mass ravens to kill creep. You only need 1 raven.
i loved how those ultras and blings just poof into thin air. this is really strong. all i would really add is a few hellions for a fit of extra splash damage but only if there are lings around.
watching roaches try to run away from HSM made me feel warm and fuzzy inside
hey OP great post. thanks for this. please lets not try to upset the mods because they are closing terran threads like no tomorrow.
anyway, alot of people suggesting drops... the drops arent necesarry b/c the marines are so mobile and the ravens are flying units already...
people arent realizing that this build has a very fast second rax followed by a fast ebay. if you go 1/1/1 then like the OP said you cant apply early pressure.
Also alot of people are suggesting hellions, which indeed are good against banelings and lings but are bad against roaches. plus if you just spend that money on marines, you are getting upgraded units that can also attack air. I think sticking to marines is best.
the OP likes to push out with about 16 - 20 marines early on then continues with small marine pressure groups, this strategy really does look like SK terran from BW.
One thing thats brilliant about this strategy is how many bunkers you build, LOL that is freakin hilarious.
the terran has sick macro, much better than my own ... that is why im worried maybe this build is too complex for me
Watched all the replays, and I gotta say, I'm amazed! Just a few helpful tips:
Watch the idle SCVs after building something, often times you forgot em for prolonged periods of time in the first few reps.
Second, also in the first few reps, there are some gaps when making waves of marines, and those few seconds can mean the game if the zerg attacks right there and then.
More on topic now. This strat gives me the hope I lost the moment I learned MMM, the sheer fun of the mass rine + ravens is just amazing. Feels like old times.
Thanks for making my day, the whole week, and my whole sc2 gaming expirience.
Unless you are expecting to be fighting Roaches you really should be getting +1 Armor before +1 Weapons. +1 Armor is very good against un-upgraded Zerglings. In fact +1 Armor is better than Combat Shield
Good on the experimenting. I loved BW ZvT in that the marine SV army was so fragile but even if you destroyed their marine army constantly, as long as they have the high SV count the zerg was screwed. Hopefully, Marine/Raven is the new standard of play in ZvT.
The thing I love most about this build is the distinct similarities between how Ravens and Science Vessels are used. For instance on Ultralisks, by themselves Ultra/Bling would annihilate a pure Marine comp. But with Ravens, specifically HSM, it's a whole 'nother story. PDD's take away, what, half the health of an Ultralisk and a fifth of those next to it? Gogo "irradiate", and if you're clever you can use them to kill off entire bling balls before they reach your marines and even put down turrets to block them. It's so fucking clever.
I tried it earlier (going to spare you the replay, it was my first time and it was so horrendous on my part I don't know how I won) in a TvZ. I was scared when I kept losing my army, but I went back to my base and got a huge banana grin when I had 50 more marines in my base waiting.
maybe, ghosts instead of ravens? snipe the mutas/ultras and all the other BIO lol emp infestors and get the nuke to prevent zergs backing off (i.e. cutting escape routes).
On October 26 2010 08:53 J-C-erloeser wrote: maybe, ghosts instead of ravens? snipe the mutas/ultras and all the other BIO lol emp infestors and get the nuke to prevent zergs backing off (i.e. cutting escape routes).
I already went over this. Snipe does next to no damage against Ultra's (45? Don't Ultra's have like 400 or 500 HP?)
Ravens are better in every feasible way. PDD's nullify Hydra's and Muta's, HSMs rape the shit out of Banelings, Lings, Hydra's, Muta's, and even take away 1/4th the health of an Ultralisk and Auto Turrets soak up damage from banelings and draw fire from zerglings and roaches while doing retarded DPS.
Oh, and one minute after this, they can just do it again. Ghosts are only good for EMPing Infestors and gimmicky mass snipes on Muta's, but a Raven could just send one HSM and one shot an Infestor or bring all the Muta health down to almost nothing.
I will be trying this. I really think the + Turret time will complement this build Nicely. Also Since your Medevac count will be kinda low, wouldn't the +Starting energy Upgrade would benefit you? Since your Main army will be only minerals you can afford to spend that Gas on the obscure upgrades
Played this against the computer a few times to get the timings and I'm eager to try it in gold league later on tonight.
One thing that I'm running into is that I'm incredibly mineral rich in the early game, right after I take my expansion. It's probably my terrible macro, but do you think it would be worth it to add marauders into the mix? I considered doing this with the tech lab rax to help spend my money and add a better cushion for banelings to explode into. I worry about losing a bit of ground to air though.
My micro certainly isn't up to the snuff of the player in the replays, but I've still got a pretty good feeling about this. At the very least, I'll surprise a few goldie zergs
Love the discussion - As a zerg it's great to see the competition evolving.
One of the key principles behind this strategy is to force the zerg to use gas heavy units (e.g. infestors/mass banelings/hydras) to counter big marine balls and to catch/snipe raven packs. During army clashes, zerg loses gas units while the terran loses mineral units, assuming the ravens are kept alive. (which is why infestors are needed to root the ravens since FG cannot be stopped by PDD)
Hence I pose a query to the OP and other readers: Have you considered the effect of mass queens as a defense? Queens are very good anti-air units that soak only minerals (150 minerals) and take 50 secs to build. (Compared to ravens that take 100 min, 200 gas, and 60sec to build). Queens have enough health to survive more than 1 HSM. With sufficient queens, you can spread creep aggresively (improving your ability to bring the queens to the frontline), and transfuse can be used to mitigate HSM. Their range 7 makes it a little easier to snipe ravens. And they do not use larvae to produce. 2 Hatch constant queen production should be able to compete with 2-base ravens.
Gas previously used for hydras/mutas/corrupters can be channeled towards two supporting builds:
1) Infestor/bling into Ultra. More infestors (which in turn gives more FG to root armies and bypass PDDs). Banelings clear the path of auto turrets and marines, giving the infestor/queen space to work. Teching to ultras and +armor eventually allows zerg to ignore auto turrets, because auto turrets do not benefit from +damage upgrades and are armored (i.e. die fast to ultras). Ultas function well against marines due to armor. Mass queens continue to support ultras through transfuse.
2) Infestor/Roach into hydra. Again more infestors to lock down the ravens and damage marine balls such that roaches can 1-shot them. Roaches tank the damage of auto-turrets and marines. Teching to hydras greatly increases the damage output of the zerg army (and upgraded hydras outrange marines so there's micro potential there). Transfuse helps keep roach tanks alive. Roach/hydra/queen all benefit from +rangedamage upgrades, so there's good upgrade synergy there.
I know PDDs can negate queen damage. But from a zerg perspective that may be a good thing. Forcing a PDD to drop means less turrets and HSMs which means a safer environment for the queens/infestors to do their thing. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, FG's damage bypasses PDD.
Edit: someone posted above that it is difficult to support roach/hydra/infestor production off 2 bases. My anecdotal ZvZ experience tells me that it is indeed very possible to do so. 2 bases can give easily u an army of 5 infestors, and tons of roach/hydra by around the... 15(?) minute mark. Now if you need more infestors, hydras have to be cut. And queens can be used to fill in the anti-air gap.
On October 26 2010 11:09 drdovetalk wrote: Love the discussion - As a zerg it's great to see the competition evolving.
One of the key principles behind this strategy is to force the zerg to use gas heavy units (e.g. infestors/mass banelings/hydras) to counter big marine balls and to catch/snipe raven packs. During army clashes, zerg loses gas units while the terran loses mineral units, assuming the ravens are kept alive. (which is why infestors are needed to root the ravens since FG cannot be stopped by PDD)
Hence I pose a query to the OP and other readers: Have you considered the effect of mass queens as a defense? Queens are very good anti-air units that soak only minerals (150 minerals) and take 50 secs to build. (Compared to ravens that take 100 min, 200 gas, and 60sec to build). Queens have enough health to survive more than 1 HSM. With sufficient queens, you can spread creep aggresively (improving your ability to bring the queens to the frontline), and transfuse can be used to mitigate HSM. Their range 7 makes it a little easier to snipe ravens. And they do not use larvae to produce. 2 Hatch constant queen production should be able to compete with 2-base ravens.
I dunno. It is certainly possible and would be fairly entertaining to play. I just don't know how good mass queens are against upgraded marines with stim. You can transfuse quite well but marines just do ridiculous damage. Likewise, ravens don't usually stick around. It would be interesting to fight though.
Gas previously used for hydras/mutas/corrupters can be channeled towards two supporting builds:
1) Infestor/bling into Ultra. More infestors (which in turn gives more FG to root armies and bypass PDDs). Banelings clear the path of auto turrets and marines, giving the infestor/queen space to work. Teching to ultras and +armor eventually allows zerg to ignore auto turrets, because auto turrets do not benefit from +damage upgrades and are armored (i.e. die fast to ultras). Ultas function well against marines due to armor. Mass queens continue to support ultras through transfuse.
2) Infestor/Roach into hydra. Again more infestors to lock down the ravens and damage marine balls such that roaches can 1-shot them. Roaches tank the damage of auto-turrets and marines. Teching to hydras greatly increases the damage output of the zerg army (and upgraded hydras outrange marines so there's micro potential there). Transfuse helps keep roach tanks alive. Roach/hydra/queen all benefit from +rangedamage upgrades, so there's good upgrade synergy there.
I know PDDs can negate queen damage. But from a zerg perspective that may be a good thing. Forcing a PDD to drop means less turrets and HSMs which means a safer environment for the queens/infestors to do their thing. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, FG's damage bypasses PDD.
Edit: someone posted above that it is difficult to support roach/hydra/infestor production off 2 bases. My anecdotal ZvZ experience tells me that it is indeed very possible to do so. 2 bases can give easily u an army of 5 infestors, and tons of roach/hydra by around the... 15(?) minute mark. Now if you need more infestors, hydras have to be cut. And queens can be used to fill in the anti-air gap.
As with all these, suggestions, I would be curious how to can deal with the constant trading and the increasingly large raven fleet. Most of my games(which I will post later) and the posted reps peaked around 15-20 minutes with the zerg burning out. I would love to see more queens personally. I think they would really be interesting to play against. Constantly transfused roaches would really be a pain to deal with.
But then again, I can get tanks or ravens or banshees and less ravens as well.
On October 26 2010 11:09 drdovetalk wrote: Love the discussion - As a zerg it's great to see the competition evolving.
I agree. And I've always felt that ravens will eventually become a standard part of TvZ composition, just like science vessels did in BW.
And especially now that FruitDealer has, on multiple occasions, burrowed banelings outside the Terran's choke, I feel like Terrans are finally going to figure out how awesome ravens are.
Very interesting build. Given how badly I'm doing vs zerg, I'm anxious to give this a go. I had 2 quick questions though. I really like the fact that this is anti-creep among everthing else.
1) Would it make any sense to get ship armor +1 to make the ravens a little more durable?
2) Also, in the scrap station game with the ultras. You flew by the big zerg ball in the middle at least once with your ravens. Could you have unloaded a few hsm on the big ball? I doubt he could avoid any of the hsm's if you decided to launch them. Just wondering if there was a strategic reason you held off. I don't have a ton of experience using ravens but I know you have to get pretty close to unload. Maybe infestors would be an issue.
Roach Infestor counters this extremely well marines just dont cut it vs the roaches unless you have significantly higher upgrades. Fungal works very well and infested T's can help tkae down the ravens.
Hey guys, been trying this out today against a friend of mine.
I have 2 replays.
As a preface, ignore my terrible macro/play.
The first one isn't very good; I forget combat shield for the first push which really hurts me at the start. Luckily he doesn't push. This one has a lot of Raven turret harass.
The second is a bit better. Theres a huge mis micro by me at his gold. Lost all my rines...ignore that mistake. There is a good battle at the end where seeker missle blows up a bunch of guys, check it out.
This is a pretty solid strategy which is really fun to play. Cheers to the OP.
OP, thanks for the quick response. Mass queens will certainly be massacred by marines with stim. Hence the need for infestors to root and roach or banes at the frontlines
Also, I will defer to your statement that turrets are not armored. sc2 wikia says that they are, so maybe the website is outdated. Luckily for zerg, liquedia says turrets are treated as structures (i always thought all structures are armored), so banelings still make some sense against them.
Watched all the replays in the OP, and wow, what a great composition. I like the mixing in of ghosts in the shakuras plateau game. This seems really strong, although at that point you had the game in the bag.
The game on jungle basin, the zerg could have developed some counter play if he didn't constantly ram the defended choke and just went around into your base / 3rd earlier.
I think a key to playing against this strat is to force Terran into dumping their energy on pdd / auto turrets and then change attack flanks. The marines aren't really that great at defending against AoE (fungal growth!), so the turrets are definitely needed to bolster the beefiness when you're defending. Also, bling/ling combo seems like a DUH, but it really doesn't deal with the main threat: the ravens. While it may man handle the marines, the zerg player is dumping a lot of gas into dealing with a mineral only threat that is easily replenished while the raven count slowly builds up to unmanageable numbers. Then when the situation gets out of control, zerg cannot muster up a decent response because of all the gas they dumped into blings, and they're trading units for energy at that point which is never a good idea. Early on it seems feasible, but I don't think its a good unit choice late-mid game because it becomes cost-ineffective.
Corruptors seem like a decent idea if you want to ranch the ravens, but I don't think zerg needs a tier 3 response to this play. Hive tech seems pretty useless (ultralisks bleh, broodlords double bleh).
Really enjoyed watching those games.
Oh, I had a question: does the opponent know what unit you've targeted with the HSM? Gotta isolate that unit to minimize damage. Since HSM is an energy sink, making Terran bungle a few HSM can buy a huge advantage.
why do i get the feeling that some people didnt even watch the replays?
Watch the eff'n things before making silly comments.
Most of the games mass roaches and infestor were involved. The whole point of this build that makes it so effective is that it is more mineral intensive and any gas spent is spent on ravens and upgrades only. To counter zerg needs to constantly build gas intensively. Yes infestors and roaches do hard counter marines. And yes you are going to lose alot of them but you can recover alot faster of 2 bases early on than zerg can. With little or no gas used to do it. Eventually you will outnumber zerg, the constant pressure means very little tine to drone properly. I think the idea is to exhaust zerg constantly. This is not intended to be a quick win like tvz matchup was. Its not even about trying to out macro him because you seldom can. Its forcing mineral expenditure on units not drones, spending a shit load of gas which comes in slower than minerals on tech and units, more specifically blings. Its not a terran auto win but rather a way to level the playing field.
Hey great post OP! I reviewed four of your featured replays.I tried this strategy and i did win my first game.
This link is a diamond rank 7 terran vs a diamond rank 7 zerg.
Check this out OP and offer me your suggestions please, i didnt have quite as good of macro as you.. also i didnt push out with small groups of marines as much as you did.
One question i have, is that when you have a 170+ army and the zerg has a 170 + army, and he rolls at your marines with like 40 banelings, what do you do? there was one situation where i had a big engagement and lost alot of marines.
On October 26 2010 16:04 Santi wrote: So i tried this, zerg made 8 spine crawlers+banelings next thing I know he pushes out with broadlords. fml what did i do wrong? lol
On October 26 2010 16:45 sodoff wrote: Hey great post OP! I reviewed four of your featured replays.I tried this strategy and i did win my first game.
This link is a diamond rank 7 terran vs a diamond rank 7 zerg.
Check this out OP and offer me your suggestions please, i didnt have quite as good of macro as you.. also i didnt push out with small groups of marines as much as you did.
One question i have, is that when you have a 170+ army and the zerg has a 170 + army, and he rolls at your marines with like 40 banelings, what do you do? there was one situation where i had a big engagement and lost alot of marines.
I reviewed his games more from the opposition pov and he just macroes the marines up again, with 8-9 raxxes that have reactors on them.
in between ravens, planetary fortresses and medivacs there solution from the zerg pow aint banelings.
To deal with one of the other Z options, like mass roach or infestors, you need to switch your composition as well.
You need to have ghost vs infestor, and tanks vs roach. You really do not want to do overdo the tanks, because you will always needs a consistent cloud of raven. 3 tanks one shot a roach, so 6-9 tanks is a good number in a 120-150 food fight.
Thanks for the detailed description and analysis of this build. I had heaps of trouble with Z in 1vs1 and just gave this a try, and it worked! Sure, the zerg player wasn't the best, but neither am I.
for crying out loud. Watch the replays. Concentrated marine stim fired MELTS ULTRAS! Do you guys have any idea how many marines we are talking about here?
Who can honestly say that they have won teching to thors post 1.1.2 against a decent zerg? They are expensive, they are useless in small groups unless being repaired by scvs which are food for roaches and fungal and banelings, if you manage to army trade, zerg could easily make 15 more roaches, possibly even ultras as i have seen done before in the time it took you to build 1 or 2 thors. Thors are slow they dont do a lot of damage when compared to 120 +3+3 stim shield marines that you can micro. They are good for splash damage only. Thats what hsm is for in a much larger radius, dealing shit tons more damage.
Us terrans cant rely on gimmicky immobile play vs zerg. They will steamroll you. You must push forward but be able to quickly retreat if you need to. Thors and tanks dont do that. IT DOESNT WORK ANYMORE! Zerg gets too far ahead too early.
wow, i just watched the replays, what an impressive tactic. really really strong. it basically forces the zerg into a constant war of attrition. by this, u dont let him drone up and exploit the larva sparsity compared to the production capabilities of a terran with constant scv production plus pumping marines out of reactored raxes as if it was nothing. really impressive stuff.
actually this build is good. i just tryed it couple of times in 1400 diamond and it looks pretty viable. only i think the Offensive system of ravens is way weak. HSM actually doesnt work against zerg speed and the energy cost is ridiculous . but imo what kills this tact is a good Muta Harras on your expans. it really hurted me , while my army could just kill the mutas simply , he wouldnt engage ( like every other muta lolmode harraser) and then i would lost many SCVs in his each attacks.i saw you upgraded Terran's building army but still mutas just pee on turret and with MAXIMUM 1 dead they detroy every single turret at base and do a fun harras. still adding 25% friendlyfire for Banelings and some slower speed for mutas could just "balance" the game :D even with this beautiful playstyle u made
I tried this strat and it worked pretty well even though I lost a lot of marines to banelings. However people keep saying it takes advantage of larvae scarcity, couldn't the zerg counter this by making a extra hatch and queen? 450 minerals isn't that much in mid-game.
On October 26 2010 16:45 sodoff wrote: Hey great post OP! I reviewed four of your featured replays.I tried this strategy and i did win my first game.
This link is a diamond rank 7 terran vs a diamond rank 7 zerg.
Check this out OP and offer me your suggestions please, i didnt have quite as good of macro as you.. also i didnt push out with small groups of marines as much as you did. Seems like zerg liked it too
One question i have, is that when you have a 170+ army and the zerg has a 170 + army, and he rolls at your marines with like 40 banelings, what do you do? there was one situation where i had a big engagement and lost alot of marines.
Wow, that was pretty sweet. Good job. I liked how you were able to make fire breaks with your turrets to prevent zerg from chasing you. That is a good technique to have. The main problem I saw in your play was that you were not aggressive enough.
Being aggressive addresses many problems. It allows you to to pull the mutaball to his base to defend. It allows you to trade supply so you don't max out and end up at 200/200. You really want to avoid getting too close to 200/200 before the 20 minute mark or whenever the zerg starts burning out. Otherwise if you lose your army, you won't have 50 marines sitting back at your rally. You can remove the creep as well as prevent zerg from getting a massive army that rolls yours in a high food battle.
Your macro could have been better but it comes in time so just keep working on it. 2-3 bases of minerals with possibly a gold mixed in is really hard to keep down. I was amused by the fact by the fact that you did very few mules and never got stim. Either way, it was a pretty good game.
For those who want to try other unit combos, get the general mid game of having 2 bases and running around forcing zerg to make units down. Then you can try whatever you want.
I personally really want a great Terran like QXC do this against a good zerg like Dimaga.
On October 26 2010 21:50 Slayer91 wrote: Anyone doubting this strat watch bratok vs ret in craftcup
Yeah, he used something similar in game one. Link If there is a player who could make this strat work, it's BratOK. His micro is so good that he can probably make anything work :D.
finally some Terrans start to think about their units instead of doing the same mindlessly again and again. Way to go OP. TvZ clearly needs less whining and more thinking.
great strat op. started using it on the ladder yesterday, got some wins, i like it. i've been struggling with my tvz for quite some time now, good to add decent new build to my arsenal. gonna post some replays soon, i'm ~1600 terran
I hate all terran builds that are heavy Raven build 6+. Turret harass is annoying and HSM rapes every zerg unit other then Ultras. (don't complain how much energy it is b/c its hella strong) 1HSM + tanks = Death to roaches/hydras. The AI has habit of clumping so you guys get max kills. It is hella scary to fight with muta against Ravens because you have like a second to react to those missiles. one mistake = massive army loss.
Quick question; do you get nanosteel and/or durable materials? I am wondering if bringing 6 SCV's on autorepair to repair auto-turrets could be a wise investment. Since the Turrets would then have 3 armor it would make them virtually zergling proof and with SCV's repairing it would make them just that much stronger.
Also what about making a force field of sorts of AT's when the Banes come rolling in? Do you simply prefer to spend the energy on HSM at that point?
Also in the IdrA final game for GSL qualifying he seemed to encounter a mass raven build and shut it down 100% with Infestor play. How do you deal with Infestors? Mix in ghosts?
On October 26 2010 22:41 Tenks wrote:Also in the IdrA final game for GSL qualifying he seemed to encounter a mass raven build and shut it down 100% with Infestor play. How do you deal with Infestors? Mix in ghosts?
You can't, it completely shuts down any sort of mass-marine strategy. That's the reason this strategy isn't being used at the highest level of play.
The problem with ghosts is that they'll cripple your Raven production and you will always lose them in an engagement - they're slow and they can't stim, so they'll always lag behind the rest of your units. You might land an EMP or two, but you're going to be hard-pressed to match his infestor count 1-1 with your ghost count, and after the first few ghosts die and Z starts to expand you're just falling further and further behind. It's even worse when you factor in upgrade costs - now you need the gas to pay for infantry upgrades, your tech infrastructure, ravens, raven upgrades (building armor, hsm, +25 energy), Ghosts AND Ghost upgrades. You simply can't pay for all that, and even if you could, you wouldn't be able to afford any medvacs, so FG would be even more of a threat.
anyone here capable of trying, 4rax! Zergs like to fe, and this works well, but if he can muta harrasse ur pretty much screwed since everything has to be pure marines/scvs/supply depots, that is until you get an expo up, but you shouldn't have to, and if you do then you can think about turrets.
regular up to gas. add 2nd, third, 4th, rax. first regular rax as usual has tech lab for Stim/HP upgrade. 2nd, 3rd, 4th rax has reactor cores, yuo pretty much beat anything except for mutas, since they will make you stay at your main and can fly away and stay away from teh marines if controled properly, ive used this and havent lost once, except for tonight when the guy harrassed both my main and nat back and forth, but the map was meta, so the main to nat distance is horribly close, so this strat isnt quite for that map in this case. Anywho nothing beats this. Show me otherwise. sick read btw! ill try this.
On October 27 2010 00:31 wishbones wrote: anyone here capable of trying, 4rax! Zergs like to fe, and this works well, but if he can muta harrasse ur pretty much screwed since everything has to be pure marines/scvs/supply depots, that is until you get an expo up, but you shouldn't have to, and if you do then you can think about turrets.
regular up to gas. add 2nd, third, 4th, rax. first regular rax as usual has tech lab for Stim/HP upgrade. 2nd, 3rd, 4th rax has reactor cores, yuo pretty much beat anything except for mutas, since they will make you stay at your main and can fly away and stay away from teh marines if controled properly, ive used this and havent lost once, except for tonight when the guy harrassed both my main and nat back and forth, but the map was meta, so the main to nat distance is horribly close, so this strat isnt quite for that map in this case. Anywho nothing beats this. Show me otherwise. sick read btw! ill try this.
Nooooo.... ZvT was much better when all Terrans did a gimmicky 1 base build, were afraid to mass marines, and had no macro chops to fall back on. Go back to that style of play Terrans!
More seriously this strat discussion was epically awesome.
The marine trade is INSANELY important to ZvT and something so many Terrans miss out on. Fending off marines as zerg sucks 100% until you are on 3+ bases with baneling speed and creep spread and even then good control can make marines still be a pain. Regardless of what you make early on your investing larva + gas or tons of larva + minerals (if you go ling heavy) to fend off the marines. It really does have a huge impact on your economy and ability to tech. So many Terrans seem afraid to lean on marines at all which cost them heavily as they instead choose to trade gas for gas.
As for the strat, I still need to watch the replays, but what kind of transitions can/do you make out of it? Once you have 7+ raven and your 2 bases it seems like you're going to start stock piling gas if you stop production on ravens due to having enough. Medivacs are one obvious transition, but do you ever play with marine-tank-raven or marine-thor-raven at this point? With ravens you can protect the immobility of the siege tanks to a good deal (SM overlords trying to drop) and tanks will really cover taking out any ground units (except maybe if they get a good influx of ultralisks).
As for infestors shutting it down, I dunno it seems like a control thing really. If they're heavy on infestors you may want to have a more limited raven count and invest some gas into other things that are less prone to infestors like siege tanks. With tank + raven and good control you should be able to do relatively well at keeping infestors from getting off too many fungals. Also don't forget the timing. It takes zerg quite a while to get infestors from lair tech.
On October 27 2010 00:30 Blobskillz wrote: or oyu just dont sit around on 2 bases all day long
No. You cannot afford mass expansions, an army, full upgrades for ghosts, ravens and marines, any significant number of medvacs AND your tech/production infrastructure. Infestors will steamroll you in the midgame, take the entire map and hold you to 2-3 bases until you tap out.
The BratOK v. Ret game is a perfect example of why this build is weak - midgame Ret has a 1-2 base advantage and a 50+ food advantage until he throws away the game by overreacting to drops and tries to just outmuscle BratOK with Ultras instead of sticking with infestors while slowly getting ultras.
I've been wondering myself why no Terran really uses Raven's/HSM since they seem to have quite a hard time with pretty much any other BO. I really thought we'd see some interesting Raven+Bio-Builds by now in the GSL.
The Ling/Bling/Muta-builds that pretty much dominate Terran MMM+Tanks could be very week against HSM, if you just peak forward with your Ravens, get off a few HSM's and then push in with your Marines.
I don't really see a problem with Mass-Roaches: PDD will soak up huge amounts of DMG from the Roaches and you can counter fast with Mass-Marauders (would be good to not build Reactors at the Rax anyways, to safe up gas and have the possibility to put down mass-techlabs fast if the Zerg goes for Roaches).
Hydras really shouldn't be a big Problem either, since you can snipe his Tumors easily thanks to the ravens and Hydras are so slow off-creep, that they get pwned by HSM. PDD should help out a lot as well.
I guess the build could be pretty Micro-intensive, cuz you have to use the Ravens very well offensively and snipe stuff before the attack happens without getting them sniped and if Zerg wants to attack you, Marine-spreading and hitting the right Units at the right time with HSM could be pretty difficult. So I think Speedling+Baneling will still be the hardest build to play against, but if done right, Ravens could do better than Tanks as the go-to AoE against Speedling/Baneling.
IMHO, it could be much better than Tank+MMM, since Ravens are more mobile than Tanks, help you scout Tumors, don't make you waste tons of scans against burrowed blings and are pretty versatile with their 3 completely different spells.
Well the big possible limitation kickin might be the energy for the ravens. At best a raven can use SM+Auto-turret if it was full energy. 125 energy for SM is pretty limiting. Also SM's range is a factor. At 6 range it doesn't leave a lot of room for flexibility (for example you can't SM hydras and be sure the raven will live).
On a side note, I hope SM gets a tiny tiny buff because if Terrans need to rely on SM a bit I think the matchup could be really fun. It'd certainly be a lot better than the current state where Terrans have a very ball or drop oriented army. Auto-turret and PDD are cool spells, but they tend to seem less tactical or control oriented than something like SM.
On October 27 2010 01:01 Logo wrote: Well the big possible limitation kickin might be the energy for the ravens. At best a raven can use SM+Auto-turret if it was full energy. 125 energy for SM is pretty limiting. Also SM's range is a factor. At 6 range it doesn't leave a lot of room for flexibility (for example you can't SM hydras and be sure the raven will live).
On a side note, I hope SM gets a tiny tiny buff because if Terrans need to rely on SM a bit I think the matchup could be really fun. It'd certainly be a lot better than the current state where Terrans have a very ball or drop oriented army. Auto-turret and PDD are cool spells, but they tend to seem less tactical or control oriented than something like SM.
True and I also think HSM would be fine if it would cost like 100 Energy, but still: If you get out Ravens soon and maybe even research their energy-upgrade, you can certainly push with a strong force off of 2 bases.
I mean: Defending 2-bases as Terran against a Zerg really shouldn't be a big Problem if you play defensive and then win or do a lot of DMG with a strong push. And with a 1/1/1-build into expand, you can get out Ravens so fast and can defend quite easily against a Zerg, that doesn't go for some kind of very aggressive all-in. And even if he does, you can scout it and prepare with bunkers, repairing/bllocking SCV's etc.
It will also help you to time your push, because you can either achieve a strong timing-push by timing it according to your opponent, which can be pretty hard, but if you time it on sth lke (2-3 Ravens with enough Energy for HSM/PDD), suddenly your push-timing becomes very decisive and strong.
Biased terran here, but 100 energy HSM seems like a good idea. More HSM would also make the ZvT matchup alot more fun from a spectator point of view. Its hard to not get wound up when the HSMs start to fly. Kind of like the visceral reaction banelings get as they roll into big armies.
The idra vs qxc and bratok vs ret are absolutly not exemple of this strategy, unless they played games that I didn't saw. They just use one raven for creep tumor snipe and to avoid bane traps. Qxc used 2 ravens but with 4 thors and 4 helions + marines and marauders, not the same strat, but a nice timing push. But the bratok games are a good exemple of the other viable new TvZ strat (mass rine/tank) And those games were amazing played by him.
You guys really have to watch the replays before saying things like "this auto loses to X, hurr durr". I was skeptical at first, stuck in the simplistic mindset that marines are "countered" by banelings and infestors. But watch the replays, kme actually fights all that stuff and beats it. Personally, I like that his answer to banelings appears to be more marines
You can't overestimate the value of forcing larvae. Constant marines may have died horrible acidic deaths but they almost always killed enough units (read:larvae) to make them worth it, not to mention trading minerals for gas. By constantly trading, kme ends up ahead in workers while stockpiling ravens and building up energy. Marines are expendable, and with so many rax there is always another ball ready to go as long as your macro is okay. By the end of the game, 3/3 marines are pretty nasty, but really that huge cloud of ravens is biggest danger. Problem is, as we saw in the replays, the zergs spent all their time and effort trying to hold off the constant marines. I have no doubt that weaker players can screw this up royally, with either poor micro against banelings, poor macro from the rax, or bad decisions with the ravens' spells, and come to the conclusion that the build is terrible but I'm excited to give it a try.
edit: I wanted to add, at least how I interpret the strategy, it is the job of the marines, early on, to die. They aren't meant to necessarily do tangible damage, but to kill as many lings and banelings (larvae) as possible. If you see the marines in this way it makes a lot more sense. Killing two lings is just like killing a drone. Banelings WILL kill your marines, so don't try to survive, just make sure it takes more banelings than he wants it to, and kill as many lings as you can. kme came out even on cost in those trades, even against banelings, as well as killing a lot of larvae that could have been drones.
awesome thanks for the feedback OP. Im really liking this strategy.
My last game of the night last night, i played a rank 2 diamond zerg and beat him, and he went basically all roaches.
This strategy is brilliant. it does force the units of Z to be either heavy roach or heavy baneling, neither is great against the ravens. also it allows you to pressure the zergs third and fourth which is so so important against zerg and something that i used to find to be almost impossible to do. loving this build and im gonna use it some more today
ALso, on two replays that i didnt post, the initial attack of 16-20 marines has just killed my zerg opponent twice. the initial attack is strong lol, and if zerg is massing up drones on two base, its going to do alot of damage.
As a somewhat related/unreleated question what happens to a HSM if the target burrows while it is en route? Does it target/explode at the location the target burrowed?
Ive watched a few replays and i admit i was very skeptical but this really allows T to macro up and army of marines as fast as a Z can macro up a similar army and when the raven count hits 4-5 The Z starts to VERY quickly run out of options!
The biggest threat is actually Getting turret bombed by fully upgraded auto turrets!
Those things can EASY take out a base.
S Z is forced to spend food fichting auto turrets While T Continues to make the never ending marine army!
How important is it to force trades? Specifically, in the replays, it almost looks as if the player is intentionally continuing a losing battle instead of retreating just to force more larvae/gas to be spent on zerglings/banelings.
Is burning Z's gas/larvae so important that you rarely/never retreat? It seems the answer is yes.
Love long macro games, and love when terran play on that field! . I would love to have a partner to practice this (not the best players on latin american server T-T), so i have to ask... The early game marines trade for bling/lings, its smart, and i belive very needed for it to work... but (and this is a question, not a statement, i want to know from your experience) if he just get some roaches + crawlers (fighting only on creep), and borrow tech for fast healing... then he could recycle the same 7-8 roaches to fight all your early marine harras, and save up a lot of larva for big macro, and lot of gas for what ever tech he was aiming to...
Does this works like this? or i am wrong about it?
On October 27 2010 06:35 Smackzilla wrote: How important is it to force trades? Specifically, in the replays, it almost looks as if the player is intentionally continuing a losing battle instead of retreating just to force more larvae/gas to be spent on zerglings/banelings.
Is burning Z's gas/larvae so important that you rarely/never retreat? It seems the answer is yes.
Muta/ling are both very fast units which often make retreating impossible unless you are very close to your base. You are better off having your units fight to the death instead of trying to run and giving the zerg free kills.
On October 27 2010 07:04 micjmac wrote: How do you handle spine crawlers? Is it effective to suicide marines into spine crawlers, or should you try to bypass them?
Just kill them. People give too much credit to Static Defense. If they got something like 15 spine crawlers at their natural, simply back off and just take your third and even your fourth.
On October 27 2010 07:04 micjmac wrote: How do you handle spine crawlers? Is it effective to suicide marines into spine crawlers, or should you try to bypass them?
Mass rines deal with them pretty well with a medivac or 2
another plus of this build is the very fast ground upgrades your bio gets which tend to help a ton vs spines
Oh yeah. I played a Zerg earlier today, where he had like 6 spine crawlers and 10 banelings coming my way. Let's just say, 30 2/1 marines tear through a row of banelings and spine crawlers faster than you think
What are your thoughts regarding a zerg that continues to make mutalisks and provokes HSM to waste raven mana whilst using his ling/bling/roach in addition to his ~20 mutas to secure additional expoes?
My opponent kept on making the same unit combination ( muta ling bling, though eventually adding in roaches to a higher degree ). It seems very hard to actually kill off a large group of mutas, HSM just doesn't seem to cut it against a player who is overly careful with his mutas. When our armies clashed his blings mowed down my marines to quickly for there to be enough left to be a real threat against his large stack of mutas.
Only when I could force him to defend his last operational base could I land a killing blow with the HSM.
On October 27 2010 04:26 sodoff wrote: awesome thanks for the feedback OP. Im really liking this strategy.
My last game of the night last night, i played a rank 2 diamond zerg and beat him, and he went basically all roaches.
This strategy is brilliant. it does force the units of Z to be either heavy roach or heavy baneling, neither is great against the ravens. also it allows you to pressure the zergs third and fourth which is so so important against zerg and something that i used to find to be almost impossible to do. loving this build and im gonna use it some more today
ALso, on two replays that i didnt post, the initial attack of 16-20 marines has just killed my zerg opponent twice. the initial attack is strong lol, and if zerg is massing up drones on two base, its going to do alot of damage.
You should have 2/2 or 3/3 2/3s of the way into your game Both orbitals have 200 mana all game Get building armor ( they add +2 to the turrets ) Get a second engineering bay and add medivacs/additional starports at some point you could also add more bunkers if needed
On October 27 2010 07:57 Unstable wrote: Kudos for the strategy.
What are your thoughts regarding a zerg that continues to make mutalisks and provokes HSM to waste raven mana whilst using his ling/bling/roach in addition to his ~20 mutas to secure additional expoes?
My opponent kept on making the same unit combination ( muta ling bling, though eventually adding in roaches to a higher degree ). It seems very hard to actually kill off a large group of mutas, HSM just doesn't seem to cut it against a player whom is overly careful with his mutas. When our armies clashed his blings mowed down my marines to quickly for there to be enough left to be a real threat against his large stack of mutas.
Only when I could force him to defend his last operational base could I land a killing blow with the HSM.
Have you tried PDD against Mutas? In replay 7 (i think, it was on Lost Temple) of the OP's post the T uses PDD in one engagement where there were lots of mutas and lings. The PDD depleted pretty fast, but it gave the marines enough time to do significant damage. A modest amount of damage prevented at the beginning of a decent-sized battle can have a huge effect, in the same way that cutting a worker early has a large effect on later stages of the game.
Also, don't underestimate turrets. They're relatively cheap and pretty effective with the building armor upgrade.
Off topic, the "whom" I italicized within the bolded section of your post should be "who". The player who is overly careful with his mutas is the subject of the verb "is", so the pronoun is who, not whom. I wouldn't normally point out a who/whom mistake but I find people generally go out of their way to use "whom" when they think it is grammatically correct, as opposed to those who simply don't care and use "who" in place of "whom", so it seemed appropriate to correct you.
Thanks, I haven't watched all of the replays yet, but I'll definitively watch #7 when I can free up some time.
My main concern with ravens against mutas lie with the fact that it seems necessary to conserve energy to make the Zerg think twice before engaging with his mutas. Unless the ravens come with an escort of marines being short on energy means that they're usually going to die if I try to use them to harass expansions. There's little to stop an opponent from sniping multiple ravens with the splash damage from the mutas as even a couple of hits from a group of auto-turrets is well within the limits of what's acceptable damage if the reward is great enough. But being conservative with the ravens energy means less room for aggressive harassment and if the zerg is good at provoking HSM and dodging it, he's effectively limiting my chances to put the ravens to any real usage.
marine raven vs. muta ling roach - I'm well aware that my mechanics are lacking, and that I only won that game due to equal shortcomings from my opponent whom(?) failed to capitalize on my mistakes. When I played that game I figured that wasting marines and even ravens wasn't as costly for myself as it would become for my opponent in the long run. But it might hint at my concern regarding HSM. I probably wasted hundreds of energy trying to land just one.
On October 27 2010 02:33 MrCon wrote: The idra vs qxc and bratok vs ret are absolutly not exemple of this strategy, unless they played games that I didn't saw. They just use one raven for creep tumor snipe and to avoid bane traps. Qxc used 2 ravens but with 4 thors and 4 helions + marines and marauders, not the same strat, but a nice timing push. But the bratok games are a good exemple of the other viable new TvZ strat (mass rine/tank) And those games were amazing played by him.
I just figured that it'd be helpful since it shows an example of Raven play against Zerg.
On October 27 2010 04:26 sodoff wrote: awesome thanks for the feedback OP. Im really liking this strategy.
My last game of the night last night, i played a rank 2 diamond zerg and beat him, and he went basically all roaches.
I can't believe that was rank 2 diamond zerg. He played pretty crappy. Where were the creep tumors? Where were the infestors and banelings? He knew exactly what you were massing but he didn't build any units to counter till very very late into the game.
Going back to this build, it could definitely work. Did you guys see the first game of MvP against oGsZenio? He massed marines with medivacs and some tanks. Totally pwnt the zerg but lost the next two game. So this definitely has promise if you can spread and micro your marines like MvP
On October 27 2010 08:30 Unstable wrote: Thanks, I haven't watched all of the replays yet, but I'll definitively watch #7 when I can free up some time.
My main concern with ravens against mutas lie with the fact that it seems necessary to conserve energy to make the Zerg think twice before engaging with his mutas. Unless the ravens come with an escort of marines being short on energy means that they're usually going to die if I try to use them to harass expansions. There's little to stop an opponent from sniping multiple ravens with the splash damage from the mutas as even a couple of hits from a group of auto-turrets is well within the limits of what's acceptable damage if the reward is great enough. But being conservative with the ravens energy means less room for aggressive harassment and if the zerg is good at provoking HSM and dodging it, he's effectively limiting my chances to put the ravens to any real usage.
marine raven vs. muta ling roach - I'm well aware that my mechanics are lacking, and that I only won that game due to equal shortcomings from my opponent whom(?) failed to capitalize on my mistakes. When I played that game I figured that wasting marines and even ravens wasn't as costly for myself as it would become for my opponent in the long run. But it might hint at my concern regarding HSM. I probably wasted hundreds of energy trying to land just one.
Hmm, I haven't watched your replay yet but it sounds like you try to harass expos with just ravens? From my experience, and from what i've gathered watching replays, it's best to keep them with a group of marines. When a battle starts you should cast any useful abilities and then run them back to your base to recharge and preserve them. Marines provide plenty of pressure, it's their job to die harassing expos or trading armies. Your goal is to mass a fleet of ravens, not use them to harass mineral lines.
On October 27 2010 02:33 MrCon wrote: The idra vs qxc and bratok vs ret are absolutly not exemple of this strategy, unless they played games that I didn't saw. They just use one raven for creep tumor snipe and to avoid bane traps. Qxc used 2 ravens but with 4 thors and 4 helions + marines and marauders, not the same strat, but a nice timing push. But the bratok games are a good exemple of the other viable new TvZ strat (mass rine/tank) And those games were amazing played by him.
I just figured that it'd be helpful since it shows an example of Raven play against Zerg.
Just played three games with this build - 2k diamond level on iccup maps with a friend. We both played fairly badly though , I could upload reps if you care to see.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
PDD does not stop Roach attack. but it stops hydras though.
Don't count on it being super effective, it's not pokemon ;p
PDD is used (IMO) more for positional advantage, either get out of my territory or die.
On October 27 2010 09:57 Pokebunny wrote: Just played three games with this build - 2k diamond level on iccup maps with a friend. We both played fairly badly though , I could upload reps if you care to see.
Go for it.
On October 27 2010 06:35 Smackzilla wrote: How important is it to force trades? Specifically, in the replays, it almost looks as if the player is intentionally continuing a losing battle instead of retreating just to force more larvae/gas to be spent on zerglings/banelings.
Is burning Z's gas/larvae so important that you rarely/never retreat? It seems the answer is yes.
It is quite important. I mean, you shouldn't try to suicide your units or not micro at all. You want to get the best use out of your marines against Z's gas units. This means that you will have to be aggressive and you will end up losing units. But it doesn't mean you can't micro your units for best effect or split off a few marines to exploit 1 Army Syndrome.
Also, it is generally a bad idea to begin being super aggressive really early with you first mob of 20 marines or so after the zerg gets his nat up. I've found that it is much better with the 4 rax build that KME used to just run up to the Zerg base, take a few shots and run away if there are no sunkens or units, instead of soaking up the initial wave of banelings or lings. Or if there are sunkens, waiting outside for a little bit so Z has to make defense. You really don't need to go into hyper aggressive pressure pressure trade mode until Zerg gets a third up. Z's Third finishes right when your first ravens start to come out. This is basically the signal for you to being being aggressive because if Z keeps his third up for a while, Z will get a decent amount of infestors out and make your life hard. Don't forget to take your own third if you manage to heavily damage Zerg's third.
*Random thoughts... -You don't get ravens for the HSM. I use HSM maybe once every two games. You get ravens for turret spam. Each turret is like an instant 3 marines. -Spine Crawlers are formidable with some number of zerglings around early on and Banelings are like lurkers but faster to come out and more expensive in the long term. I don't think any good zerg will fall to the first push. -Be careful with over spamming turrets early on. Until Z starts to burn out you shouldn't try to go for the mass turret win, you just won't have the spare mana for mass auto turrets... everywhere.
a scout + spine crawlers will deny the initial push which puts you behind
they will spine crawler up and mass banelings and continue to expand. ravens are effective but they run out of energy too easily. baneling speed and zergling speed will make this opening weak if they prepare for it. i dont know who you have been playing against?
keeping a scout in there base, you could pull this off but that is tough to do
As a zerg the best way to kill this seems to be a combination of roaches, speedlings, corrupters and infestors, a neural parasite going down on a raven could be GG for a LOT of rines if you cant kill it in time though fungal growthing the rines while rupters worked away at the ravens with roaches and speedlings being the main force, banelings would also be pretty good if behind a small wall of roach too.
overall this seems like this would be a great build to play against though have you thought about throwing in a few other units, some banshees or hellions could be great for harassment and keeping zerg tied down or go down other tech paths, marine drops protected by ravens could also be pretty damn frightening, especially because of PDD against hydras, mutas and spore crawlers as well as throwing down some turrets as support.
While this idea is pretty good and creative, Starcraft 2 is not Starcraft 1. Any high level Diamond player will immediately respond to your 4 rax with fast baneling speed every time. While your ravens might be able to do excellent in dealing with other stuff in mid game banelings will come at a time when you have hardly any ravens. This will cost you the game.
Starcraft 2 is all about unit composition and response.
My final thoughts - the problem with threads like these are that people try out a strat, win a few games at a decent rating, and immediately start thinking that they're onto something. But a strategy isn't good just because you've won games with it. A strategy isn't good because a progamer demolishes his opponents with it. A strategy is good because it is structurally sound - it doesn't rely on the opponent making mistakes, or at most it relies on them making an assumption based on the limited information you show them. This strategy relies on the opponent either not making infestors or making them and having bad micro, and for that reason I would not consider it a good strategy.
On October 27 2010 14:03 JoeCrow wrote: Do autoturrets count as buildings? AKA do they take 80 dmg from a baneling? If not I could see auto turret walls be very helpful.
well would you rather have your rines get hit or an auto turret
On October 27 2010 14:38 PanzerKing wrote: My final thoughts - the problem with threads like these are that people try out a strat, win a few games at a decent rating, and immediately start thinking that they're onto something. But a strategy isn't good just because you've won games with it. A strategy isn't good because a progamer demolishes his opponents with it. A strategy is good because it is structurally sound - it doesn't rely on the opponent making mistakes, or at most it relies on them making an assumption based on the limited information you show them. This strategy relies on the opponent either not making infestors or making them and having bad micro, and for that reason I would not consider it a good strategy.
To be fair infoestors are not a auto win.
Just have to cut a few ravens for medivacs and your back at square one.
Infestors are only good to help deal with the raven cloud really and thats ony if they catch them with no support around so then can get a money fungal + infested combo.
Every replay ive watched Even when marine are completely wiped out terran macro keeps up with zerg production but every few minute more ravens are in the mix
after 8 ravens auto turrets become the real problem and infestors cant deal with the turrets any better than other Z units.
Lets not forget that even idra had a rough time dealing with this strat in his final round to qualify for GSL 2
I just tried this strat on metalopolis and failed pretty badly. Here is a replay topreplays.com/Replays/Details/2950/cartonbox_vs_FattySlug Please give advice.
On October 27 2010 15:44 positron. wrote: I just tried this strat on metalopolis and failed pretty badly. Here is a replay topreplays.com/Replays/Details/2950/cartonbox_vs_FattySlug Please give advice.
1. you did pressure the zerg AT ALL which defeats one of the main points of this build
2. you never scouted the zergs 3rd expo and let him take a gold completely uncontested for the entire game...
On October 27 2010 15:44 positron. wrote: I just tried this strat on metalopolis and failed pretty badly. Here is a replay topreplays.com/Replays/Details/2950/cartonbox_vs_FattySlug Please give advice.
Yeah i just watched the first 15 mins, you did alot wrong. your worst mistake was not scouting the zerg third and therefore missing your chance to attack it early. Scouting is important, and i like to always send out a scouting scv to check all the empty expos @ about 8 minute mark.
you made marauders, which isnt that bad but isnt part of the build. and in this build you push out with 16-20 marines to pressure zergs front, if you would have hit the gold with this early push... you would have been in the lead. You didnt move out early at all and basically waited for the raven. this build is a pressure build, thats actually whats so epic about it is you can pressure zergs third. i have killed a few 2 base zergs with the initial 16-20 marine push. so a 3 base zerg would really struggle.
also when his mutas flew into harras your mineral line, you didnt move your scv's away, and you reacted waaay to slow with your marines. after that muta harrass was over, it was basically GG because you were too far behind. mutas are really strong and do sick damage, and you have to keep an eye for them. put 2- 4 depots or other buildings on the outskirts of your base just to get more warning when they are coming on the mini map.
overall you do need to be more aggressive. watch the OP's replays again and see how often he is moving out, i was really suprised by it to and you think oh shit these marines are gonna get slaughtered, then the marines do alot of damage.
__
Here is my most recent replay on delta quadrant. TvZ, and i thought ok i might be in trouble with this build because it was such a macro map. turns out it worked in my favor and i pressured his expos pretty well. zerg goes mass ultras/mutas, and @ the 22 minute area we have a 200/200 engagement and i put out a sick amount of HSM On his ultras and mutas LOL.
im shredding zergs with this build and loving it.
There are alot of naysayers, i know for myself im fine with people not believing this is a good build but, its the best one ive been able to execute yet
Tried the build versus my zerg practice partner. It did very well, but I didnt get enough starports, lost my ground army, and my ravens ran out of energy! Considering mixing in some banshees and vikings. Loved the flexibility they gave, in terms of leaving one in base to defend against mutas: pdd stops their harass.
Other Notes: You can support a max of 1200 min/second and about 250 gas/second off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
Do you mean minutes? This is good info to have btw.
Other Notes: You can support a max of 1200 min/second and about 250 gas/second off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
Do you mean minutes? This is good info to have btw.
Those steroid mules work hard. Expo needed 8 seconds into game ^_^
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
Dude, roaches cannot be stopped by PDDs. Are you sure you are truthful when you say you have been using this strat against ROACH hydra?
But then again, with a great deal of hydra attacks stopped, the marines might just rip through the roaches especially with medivac and marauder support.
You can use the mule before you lift off the orbital 5+ idle scvs Need less energy on orbitals ( 200 all game ) or scan get building armor for the turrets that time when you just landed the orbital, that bunker seems to be in the way somehow
Thank you SOOO much for this build, I love it, it works wonders!! i just keep denying the 3rd and being annoying with auto turrets in the mineral line =D I am now 3-0 with this build, and will update soon enough
On October 27 2010 13:33 BigMEAT wrote: a scout + spine crawlers will deny the initial push which puts you behind
they will spine crawler up and mass banelings and continue to expand. ravens are effective but they run out of energy too easily. baneling speed and zergling speed will make this opening weak if they prepare for it. i dont know who you have been playing against?
keeping a scout in there base, you could pull this off but that is tough to do
<---- 1900 diamond terran.
I play against 1300-1500 Diamond players myself. But then again I only player maybe 3-4 hours a day. I disagree with you. It doesn't sound like you have done this style of play. An early counter to this strategy is any counter to a FE and mass marine. To get enough blings early on to kill it requires a pretty big commitment. :-\
This isn't a one base timing attack or an opening, it is a midgame style off +2 bases with a fairly large timing window when zerg gets his third up an a smaller poke window when his nat pops. I dunno, maybe zergs have better expo timings up there in 1900? Maybe that's why so few people that are 1750+ have posted :-\ Would be nice if more high level players chimed in.
I mean, can you elaborate?
The initial push with 20 marines is designed to force the zerg to make units and spines to not die. If he does spine up, you can go for drops and you are ahead if he masses a ridiculous amount of banelings.
@Bratok vs Ret. It is a similar unit composition but he was not very aggressive early on. You really need the upgraded marines off 4-5 rax rather than something gimmicky like a fast banshee. I think I think you could maybe do that but Bratok has no army and unupgraded marines when the first mutas popped. By that time, I usually have 20-30 CS +1 marines and both my starports going down. I mean I'm sure he had a good gameplan but it wasn't the same one I described here.
@Income, sorry that should be 600 min/minute and about 250 gas/minute off 1 base.
Hey, I understand the initial 20 marine push, but how often do you push subsequently after losing your first force? I mean, the bigger the force, the more susceptible it is to banelings, which you will lose them to no matter what.
Do you continue to push out at every 20 marines, or do you wait for a larger force and time it so that you will attack as they take their third?
Also, what is usual timing of attacking against the third?
I won't spoil the today's GSL games, but they showed that massing marines is really the way to go against zerg (with or without raven) The OP explain it well, it's good on a fondamental strategic pov because it force the zerg to use larvas and gaz to kill your 10 rax mineral only marines. That's why the raven marine is a good, solid strategy, it has the marine component. The other units could be raven,, tanks, or even mass medivacs. In the GSL game, the terran used all his gaz on medivacs, and boy, I never seen so much medivacs in a game, he had like 8+ of them relativly early in the game, just because all his gaz went to them.And his marines and marauders seemed imortals =)
The first game can be found here (SPOILER WARNING : be careful, sometime people will spoil the game in the comments under the video) http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1238 You have to register (for free) to watch the first game, but you have to buy a premium account to see the second/third game. But I guess you can find them too for free on sites like http://sc2.plu.cn/
Also, a handful of blue flame hellions can be used as a backstab on the main or expo while you are focusing the third and their army engages you. I've seen some of the replays in this thread where you guys are hitting up to 3k minerals. There is definitely room for another mineral sink here if your macro isn't up to snuff. Otherwise you're going to have to build a billion barracks to catch up in macro.
6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y
On October 28 2010 07:11 Pokebunny wrote: 6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y
Thanks for the reps :D
I'll link in the OP after I get to watch them.
In other news KME gave me 3 more reps I think now you can do CC before 2nd depot on maps where you don't need an immediate wall with his build. I think its a lot stronger than I gave it credit for on medium - bigger map. You can easily wall off with the CC and morph OC like TLO's beta FE and then use your second rax to wall behind your depot. I think you can hold off a RR fairly easily with just a bunker and even the most dedicated Baneling busts.
sodoff, the idea is not so much the build as the idea. and its not like you HAVE to keep making marines; you scale your army with the opponents army. the idea is still there, of having largely marine and raven, which he can lose huge armies of and still come out ahead. if you notice, he started getting marauders rather late in the game to deal with the huge numbers of banelings and ultras on the map.
On October 28 2010 08:32 n3mo wrote: sodoff, the idea is not so much the build as the idea. and its not like you HAVE to keep making marines; you scale your army with the opponents army. the idea is still there, of having largely marine and raven, which he can lose huge armies of and still come out ahead. if you notice, he started getting marauders rather late in the game to deal with the huge numbers of banelings and ultras on the map.
yeah well i cant criticize bratoks play, this guy is a beast. he probably knows tvz better than we do in this thread.
but, his opening was so different and midgame play was so different its hard to say its the same build.
On October 28 2010 08:32 n3mo wrote: sodoff, the idea is not so much the build as the idea. and its not like you HAVE to keep making marines; you scale your army with the opponents army. the idea is still there, of having largely marine and raven, which he can lose huge armies of and still come out ahead. if you notice, he started getting marauders rather late in the game to deal with the huge numbers of banelings and ultras on the map.
yeah well i cant criticize bratoks play, this guy is a beast. he probably knows tvz better than we do in this thread.
but, his opening was so different and midgame play was so different its hard to say its the same build.
@Hellions - Yes they may be a good edition if Zerg tries to some sort of mass speedling game. Maybe decent against hydras but I don't see them making up much of the army. They get demolished by blings slightly less bad than marines but they aren't as versatile. However they would be great for harass if zerg does manage to get his 3/4th up. The smaller army sizes really favor dropping.
@Bratok vs Ret - Like I said, I think he was going for something more standard (Harass into some sort of MMM) into a marine/raven comp so its not a good example of this sort of overall gameplan.
Personal Aside: I know 1-1-1 harass type openings are somewhat standard but it feels like playing as fantasy with his typical mass vulture into either fatally cripple the opponent or totally fail at harass and die. I really don't like fantasy's play style much so it makes me feel dirty when I do some sot of 1-1-1 harass. :-p
On October 28 2010 07:11 Pokebunny wrote: 6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y
Thanks for the reps :D
I'll link in the OP after I get to watch them.
In other news KME gave me 3 more reps I think now you can do CC before 2nd depot on maps where you don't need an immediate wall with his build. I think its a lot stronger than I gave it credit for on medium - bigger map. You can easily wall off with the CC and morph OC like TLO's beta FE and then use your second rax to wall behind your depot. I think you can hold off a RR fairly easily with just a bunker and even the most dedicated Baneling busts.
They're all KME version on iccup maps or cross spots, btw.
On October 28 2010 07:11 Pokebunny wrote: 6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y
Thanks for the reps :D
I'll link in the OP after I get to watch them.
In other news KME gave me 3 more reps I think now you can do CC before 2nd depot on maps where you don't need an immediate wall with his build. I think its a lot stronger than I gave it credit for on medium - bigger map. You can easily wall off with the CC and morph OC like TLO's beta FE and then use your second rax to wall behind your depot. I think you can hold off a RR fairly easily with just a bunker and even the most dedicated Baneling busts.
Thanks for the build. One of my biggest problems with zerg is that I get scared of moving out thus letting zerg get the upper hand. This has helped alot.
I'm including a few replays for those interested. Nothing special, both in platinum, but it shows the general idea.
here are 2 quick replays i uploaded, I will get more once I get back to playing soon. im 1800 diamond, but I havent played in a while so my hidden rating seems to be pretty high (i play a lot of 2k+).
[url blocked] vs a 2250 zerg [url blocked] vs a 1700 zerg
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind. basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
That's a nice 1-1-1 style FE. Not really marine raven, its more like T successful harass -> Raven. I'm not sure how you would have fared if you had failed your harass or if the map was smaller. Marine/Raven is mostly harass invariant and doesn't rely on high risk/high reward.
at first i was a bit confused about the apparent suiciding of the marines but now i understand about forcing the gas heavy units from zerg! surprised that a war of attrition vs zerg actually works
i also love the replay where the zerg wrote: "wtf happened to all my mutas"
like 2 minutes after they got wasted by a HSM...lol
On October 28 2010 07:11 Pokebunny wrote: 6 customs and 1 ladder game vs various players 1 game vs Just - ladder game, I was 2050 3 games vs Gerbil - ~2k diamond zerg 3 games vs logix - 1670 diamond zerg w/ 100 bonus pool (so probably around 1750-1800 zerg) http://www.mediafire.com/?cho7regecq8wp5y
If anyone is liking high level play, watch these. These are amazing.
I think you saw that this build was weird because I gave a wrong rundown of KME's variant. Thanks Pokebunny
Edit:
On October 28 2010 09:25 dandelion wrote: Thanks for the build. One of my biggest problems with zerg is that I get scared of moving out thus letting zerg get the upper hand. This has helped alot.
I'm including a few replays for those interested. Nothing special, both in platinum, but it shows the general idea.
I started playing Zerg in SEA and play random in NA. Strange to say that it gets harder and harder for terran to win. Watching these replays just makes me go wow.
Firstly, it is how you force lavra use. Do not even need to be an even trade, you are just preventing excessive droning, while you constantly make workers off of 2 base with dual mules.
2ndly, is how well thought out the BO is - without the ravens. 1 rax-wall-reactor-stop mining gas-cc-back to gas-+1 & Combat Shield- 20 marine timing push.
Key to this however seems like being able to keep your ravens alive. From a Zerg perspective. I'd ideally like to baneling plow my way through marines and swing in with mutas to clear some ravens. But will need some practice to get both sides down.
Finally, off 2 bases, there is a timing where zerg just cannot match your production anymore. It's around the 20min mark when 1 base starts mining out. Terran seems to cope alot better when mined out then zerg. Particularly due to mules. If you secure the Gold, you are golden.
On October 28 2010 15:06 cheesable wrote: I started playing Zerg in SEA and play random in NA. Strange to say that it gets harder and harder for terran to win. Watching these replays just makes me go wow.
Firstly, it is how you force lavra use. Do not even need to be an even trade, you are just preventing excessive droning, while you constantly make workers off of 2 base with dual mules.
2ndly, is how well thought out the BO is - without the ravens. 1 rax-wall-reactor-stop mining gas-cc-back to gas-+1 & Combat Shield- 20 marine timing push.
Key to this however seems like being able to keep your ravens alive. From a Zerg perspective. I'd ideally like to baneling plow my way through marines and swing in with mutas to clear some ravens. But will need some practice to get both sides down.
Finally, off 2 bases, there is a timing where zerg just cannot match your production anymore. It's around the 20min mark when 1 base starts mining out. Terran seems to cope alot better when mined out then zerg. Particularly due to mules. If you secure the Gold, you are golden.
Cannot wait to get back home to try this
yeah, the point is definitely to keep ravens alive. its like an oddly switched version of SK terran, where the suicide units now target the ground instead of the air (scourge vs bling), and dark swarm is in the terran hands now (PDD).
On October 28 2010 09:42 2FresH wrote: this is a copy paste: + Show Spoiler +
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind. basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
Just upload your replays dude otherwise nobody will remember your advice/builds
Just another benefit of Ravens I'd like to point out:
If for whatever the reason you're unable to put sufficient pressure on the zerg to burn him out within the first 20 minutes doing this build, SM works on larva. So if you end up in a 200/200 situation and there's a large enough gap in his defenses you can always suicide 2-3 ravens to take out a large chunk of his larva stockpile which will lessen the negative impact of army trading as T.
Medivac drops with raven support is really deadly.
Usually when your dropping, mutas are the first to get there, so a PDD with a semi-threatening HSM helps a lot. Dump the rest of the energy into auto-turrets with structure armor around tech buildings and the mineral line. Since you can drop 6-10+ autoturrets depending on your PDD/HSM usage, even a 2 medivac drop with marines in the main can become a lot more dangerous for the zerg.
Autoturrets do count as buildings, so banelings get more damage against them, however, their still not hitting marines and autoturrets are the size of a supply depot so even side by side you still need a decent amount of banelings to get through a auto-turret wall. Also you can abuse the zerg main building layout and place autoturrets in between hatcheries and tech buildings creating tight walls so zerglings have a harder time getting to your marine drop. You can also retreat your drop back into the medivacs and just leave the auto-turrets for the zerg to deal with. So depending on your micro and how well the zerg can react the only thing you'd lose is raven energy and makes hit-and-run style drops more efficient.
Also if a zerg gets greedy while your macroing on 2 base and over expands, ravens are great for multi-pronged harass. You can just drop 3-4 autoturrets next to a naked expansion and drop somewhere else at the same time. The zerg can overestimate or underestimate how much he needs to take out 3-4 autoturrets making it easier to move out, harass, secure a 3rd, and/or drop on more expansions.
Hey kme I noticed that you have been getting a couple tanks in the more recent replays, has that become standard for you or were you just spending money? (man does that money climb) you also appear to keep them on defense mostly, probably because they're terrible for hit and runs. Do you think they're worth it or do they eat into the raven count too much, and do you sometimes get more than a couple? The big drawback of marine tank is immobility, and the big advantage of marine raven is mobility, so it's an interesting balancing act.
I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to make a couple banshees(without cloak) to accompany the marines before starting ravens. If Zerg doesn't have a spire yet they can wreak some havoc on roaches and banelings, which can give your marines a real leg up. If he already has the spire, however, it's probably better to go for the ravens right away so they can start stockpiling energy. Maybe they're always a better choice but it seems you can steal an easy win if your marine pressure delayed his lair enough. They're never useless either with good dps, being able to keep up with the marines, and sniping infestors. Im just not sure if it's worth delaying that critical mass of ravens.
And for the haters, watch more of those replays. There's even more of kme beating infestors and mass banelings.
This is a very interesting thread. I had separately come to my own personal conclusion that a monstrous force of fully upgraded marines was the way to go (for me, at least), and I had some success with that against many mid-tier diamond zergs. My goal was to drain the zerg of all their gas by trading minerals. I had several wild games where after 30-40 minutes the zerg player would just quit, without me even ever stepping into their base, simply because they ended up where they could not make anything but zerglings. In addition, I always toss in 1-2 ravens so I can safely roam around the map 1) avoiding burrowed baneling traps, and 2) clearing out creep tumors.
What tends to defeat this is a good player who uses infestors, which own marines even harder than banelings. I've considered even adding in a ghost or two to EMP the infestors, but have not yet employed that in a game.
A new twist I have been using is a double medivac drop of marines behind the mineral line prior to getting ravens. This can hit around the 6:30 to 7:00 mark and often catches a zerg player with his pants down. IMO, it's better than a hellion drop because the hellions are vulnerable to the mutas that pop out at this point, whereas the marines will kill them; and the medivacs heal the marines, but not hellions. If they don't have banelings, and you position your marines properly, you can hold off an endless supply or drones and zerglings which might react. If they hit with roaches, you can just pick up (hellions would have been worthless anyway). Many diamond zergs are still droning up waiting for the terran to reveal their tech at this point.
On October 29 2010 04:32 Senorcuidado wrote: Hey kme I noticed that you have been getting a couple tanks in the more recent replays, has that become standard for you or were you just spending money? (man does that money climb) you also appear to keep them on defense mostly, probably because they're terrible for hit and runs. Do you think they're worth it or do they eat into the raven count too much, and do you sometimes get more than a couple? The big drawback of marine tank is immobility, and the big advantage of marine raven is mobility, so it's an interesting balancing act.
I'm not KME (obviously xD) but I like getting some tanks with this strategy. The biggest problem I have with this build is infestors, so I like to skip a raven for a medivac some cycles, which leaves me with excess gas (and opens up drop possibilities ). Tanks just seem like the perfect thing to get; you have an otherwise unused factory and tanks complement a marine army very well once you get a decent amount.
I like to keep harassing expos with marines, medivacs and ravens, leaving my tanks at home to defend while slowly building more and preserving the ravens and medivacs. Once I have around 5 tanks (I don't build them constantly, just when I have excess gas from making medivacs that isn't needed for an upgrade) I push with them, my Raven/medivac fleet, and a big ball o' 2+/2+ marines (depending if I've been able to take a third yet and build a second Ebay). Works well and, IMO, makes for fun, exciting games. Really hope to see something like this become the norm in tournaments.
On October 29 2010 04:32 Senorcuidado wrote: Hey kme I noticed that you have been getting a couple tanks in the more recent replays, has that become standard for you or were you just spending money? (man does that money climb) you also appear to keep them on defense mostly, probably because they're terrible for hit and runs. Do you think they're worth it or do they eat into the raven count too much, and do you sometimes get more than a couple? The big drawback of marine tank is immobility, and the big advantage of marine raven is mobility, so it's an interesting balancing act.
I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to make a couple banshees(without cloak) to accompany the marines before starting ravens. If Zerg doesn't have a spire yet they can wreak some havoc on roaches and banelings, which can give your marines a real leg up. If he already has the spire, however, it's probably better to go for the ravens right away so they can start stockpiling energy. Maybe they're always a better choice but it seems you can steal an easy win if your marine pressure delayed his lair enough. They're never useless either with good dps, being able to keep up with the marines, and sniping infestors. Im just not sure if it's worth delaying that critical mass of ravens.
And for the haters, watch more of those replays. There's even more of kme beating infestors and mass banelings.
It was intentional, although it was also a test. I found out that there is a timing window where zerg can do a counter attack after deflecting your first push, and if he commits enough he may do severe damage. At this time you still haven't established a big marine macro machine and the raven count/energy is still very low. Those early tanks come fast enough and are meant to snipe the majority of banelings if he tries some sort of baneling + roach/ling bust. If he decides not to attack and you could still use them offensively. After that you shouldn't need more than 2 tanks so you can return to ravens. The other option that I have been trying is to delay the OC on natural, and if you scout or suspect the bust incoming you upgrade it to PF instead. Having a PF at nat gives you great versatility since all his possible counterattacks will be nullified even before they happen. This allows you to be completely aggressive without fear.
This bust will require of zerg to sacrifice some economy so he shouldn't be ahead there, but if he doesn't actually attack it may give him map control for a brief time and this I found to be the greatest problem with the build. The reason is that it suddenly gives him few options. Those are muta switch, mass drones, overlord drop or nydus, massing even more units to keep map control or attack possibility and there is also tech. This will be the deciding point as if you are not prepared/don't react properly it may cost you the game.
I still haven't figured what is the best possible thing to do to prevent/stop this situation but there are some options.
One is as you suggested, make a few banshees first since he will have only roach/ling/bling, this will give you back map control and you must immediately take your third. Once you are one 3 base you should be safe no matter what he does.
The second option would be drops, which would have an effect similar to banshees.
The third option would be taking a third base even earlier, that is before he can potentially gain map control or at about same time. If your CC finishes upgrading to PF you will be safe. I am not yet sure what can he do to punish this but it should be tested.
Fourth option would be to make some tanks and push/force him and proceed to establish a defensive position somewhere on the map. For this you would use a ton of bunkers turrets and probably turrets int your main. If it appeared that he was massing drones try to contain. If you do it somewhere on the route of his really points it may screw him a lot, since some of his units would be trapped on the other side of contain.
And there is the fifth option. It would be scouting him somehow with 100% efficiency. If you can be absolutely sure what is he doing you may then react or prepare perfectly. Maybe getting some flying units even earlier, some floating barracks or a very carefully controlled hellion I'm not sure.
Some notes on the late game. If the game drags on and he catches you with upgrades or you see that it becomes stale don't be afraid to add some more tech or tactics. The best transition would be mass air since it is literally unstoppable if you have enough ravens and you can shut down expos very easily. Tanks could be used to hold some key positions maybe along with barracks/PF walls. Drops are basically part of the strategy already so use them. Adding ghosts if he gets a significant amount of infestors would be worthwhile, nukes are always fun and snipes also soft counter ultras/BL.
Advice for everyone: Don't look at my games like I am some sort of god of this strategy . I screw up a lot and I could also be wrong about some things. If you get some idea that seems like it could work, try it, maybe you will improve the strategy :D.
On October 29 2010 05:33 metaldragon wrote: I really want to see this from some higher level players
In the GSL MVP did a marine-heavy build against Zenio in game 1, where he used micro to avoid the banelings. He beat zerg on jungle Basin pretty decisively. His build was marine medivac more than raven.
Fake Boxer used the double medivac drop to take out Fruit Dealer.
The entire point of this build is "suiciding" units. You're constantly pressuring so he has no time to constantly drone up, and you're trading minerals for gas. This isn't a ZOMG HUGE ARMY CLASH TIME build, where obviously muta/ling/bling will win.
I think we all have to understand that the major point, the core of this build is trading marines for gaz and larvas. When you have like 10 reactored raxes you can rebuild a marine force very quickly. The raven part is, imo, the "variable" part of the build, it can be : - ravens, obviously - mass medivacs : ie Fake Boxer game vs Fruitdealer on jungle bassin, he made mass reactored raxes with a single reactored starport, he had like 10 medivacs, that make the marines unkillable. This is best used against ling/roaches/mutas, obviously not as good against banes, but it still can be if you have a good marine micro. - tanks (with or without ravens), very good against mutalings.
To sum it up, I think this build established that the marine, like in broodwar, is the main unit for a terran vs a zerg. His fast build speed and cheap cost makes the terran able to keep up with the zerg's production. For too long terran focused on marauders, because they seems so powerful, and I think because of this mass marines strategies were never really explored until 1.1.2 (because we, terrans, didn't really had to find strategies before that patch, everything we did worked against zerg :D). Now we have to find real solid strategies, and each time I see a terran make marauders in TvZ I'm sad ^^.
On the general TvZ topic, see the ret vs qxc series that just played in TOP200 KOTH. Specialy the scrap station game where mass 3-3 marines win the game. 3-3 marines are REALLY scary if the zerg doesn't keep up with upgrades. And as usualy he goes mutas + some sort of ground unit, he can't keep up. The speed a 3-3 marine ball clears a 0-1 giant ling ball is disgusting. You can see the nada vs leenock game from today GSL on xelnaga, a beautiful marine/tank push with a very nice marine control/spread against blings (and poorly microed infestors I have to admit).
On October 28 2010 15:56 nalgene wrote: Btw, could you add to drop marauders on top of banelings into your play?
Horrible idea. The way you fight banelings is by running a few marines into his army, his banelings will definitely not be amoving.
Pokebunny is a 2K Diamond Player and I have his reps linked.
I personally like the Raven 'variable' part because they allow you to maximize your gas expenditures while requiring very few minerals. They are also extremely powerful and snow ball like nothing else in the terran arsenal. They are fairly mobile and not prone to catastrophic losses when compared to sieged tanks. Not that I'm saying tanks are bad. They definitely aren't with all the pros playing Marine/Tank.
I think Ravens become infinitely better as the maps get larger since tanks can't control space like they used to. Also, Ravens are 2 Food
Not having much success with this at all still. You mass marines, they just lol @ u and do what they normally do...mass muta/ling/baneling.
HSM takes too much energy to get up, and is too slow to catch banelings, let alone anything..
sighs, in theory it should work, but ravens aren't good until you get like 20 of them all with energy..and yeah...it isn't happening lol.
the double medivac drops and suiciding units over and over again apparently is the best thing to do.
I always get 1 or 2 Siege Tanks with this build... You don't want to accidentally get all of your marines sniped by banelings when you are not paying attention... Just adding those few really helps against banes and roaches. The few times I've lost with this have been because of either a missed SM that gets all my marines killed, or good roach play. Tanks help with both of those.
Plus, if you get into the late game with this build, you often get ridiculous amounts of min/gas to spend. Not like you are starved with this. =D
Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game
On October 29 2010 08:49 nalgene wrote: Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game
My guess is he values marine upgrades more and plans to get it lategame before some mega turret push. Maybe he simply overlooked it; I know I didn't even think about the upgrade until i saw KME research it in his replays. It might actually be a good idea to get it later than KME does. You make a TON of marines with this build, so marine upgrades are pretty huge.
On October 29 2010 08:49 nalgene wrote: Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game
Everyone plays different. I personally go for structure army very early on.
On October 29 2010 08:49 nalgene wrote: Is there a reason he doesn't get the building armor for autoturrets? It'd drop the ling damage from 4 to 2 ( 5-1 to 5-3 ) and muta to 9-3 in Pokebunny's game
Everyone plays different. I personally go for structure army very early on.
Yeah I think that structure armor and hi-sec auto tracking are pretty important. Both also help your missile turrets and planetary fortresses. I think kme always gets +1 attack and then building armor right after but you can make the case for prioritizing marine upgrades more since you won't be throwing many turrets at first. I like the idea of double eng bays so you can do both.
I watched the first 3 replays and while I think the raven adds to the matchup nicely, I felt as if it was being forced.. especially in game 3. I feel like the raven only serves you when you have 3-4 of them dropping PDDs and turrets. Whats funny is that since you've posted this strat, I've seen tons of terrans trying to pull it off against me and its cute.. none of them do it correctly and i usually end up rolling them.. Anyway, I like the strat.. I don't comment on these threads much but this one deserved a reply..
Fake Boxer used the double medivac drop to take out Fruit Dealer.
Fake boxer?
The guy (currently in GSL2) with the ID Boxer who isn't SlayerS_`BoxeR` of Brood War fame. He just played (and beat) fruit dealer in the Ro32 with a double medivac drop.
IMmvp's game against oGsZenio showed some incredible marine spread and micro in game 1 on Jungle Basin during GSL season 2 ro32, only backed up with a few tanks and being very marine heavy. Good example of how Terrans can deal with 1a banelings.
Yesterday I played against a zerg who did a FE build. I expected him to drone hard, but what he in fact did was fake me out. After I watched the replay, I realized that he stayed on 2 bases and prepared a big baneling bust with tons of speedlings. Scouting is definitely key, esp. if you play in platinum where cheese is at a premium. I'll be sure to keep tabs on drone count from now on. I'm leaning towards KME's initial tank production, because they will definitely help against zergs who stay on 1 or 2 bases and sacrifice economy for an aggressive playstyle. A blue flame hellion drop could also be very successful if timed correctly against such aggression I would assume.
On October 29 2010 22:17 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: IMmvp's game against oGsZenio showed some incredible marine spread and micro in game 1 on Jungle Basin during GSL season 2 ro32, only backed up with a few tanks and being very marine heavy. Good example of how Terrans can deal with 1a banelings.
that style of play heavily relies on micro of such a supreme quality that it will always stay out of reach for the majority of us.
basically the core message of the recent gsl games and of this thread is that going very marine heavy into a war of attrition against zerg is the way to counter their macro advantage. what remains to be discussed further imho is how to optimally spend the gas. i personally am not convinced that mass raven is the best answer.
On October 30 2010 00:50 Kryptix wrote: Whats better than ravens though? mass bc + viking? Ravens are great in every matchup so having 10 will never hurt...
i said "mass raven". ravens are great when u got a whole fleet of them, but 2 or 3 ravens wont do too much against a muta/ling/bling/infestor army. 3 tanks on the other hand can help quite a lot.
i think it might be worth to start off with marine/tank and later on start to transition into marine/mass raven.
Awesome build kme, I will try it tomorrow with R2D guys.
Can anyone confirm if HSMs have friendly fire or not? If they don't, then flying them into a group of Mutas and then using the HSM would be more efficient. If they are clumped up, you only need 2 HSMs.
The only problem with doing the tank version that I see is that you reduce your mobility and ability to hit hard and fast with constant pressure that this build is based on... I'd rather just double PF expand with this than go with tanks because of that... Maybe add some reactor blue flame hellions in place of some marines to soft counter baneling busts, but roaches really aren't a hard counter to mass stim marines. I just feel that its not worth sacrificing mobility for a build built around mobility...
Also, I think getting 2-4 vikings might actually be more valuable than tanks because it will force mutas to protect overlords which effectively counters roach/baneling.
On October 30 2010 00:50 Kryptix wrote: Whats better than ravens though? mass bc + viking? Ravens are great in every matchup so having 10 will never hurt...
i said "mass raven". ravens are great when u got a whole fleet of them, but 2 or 3 ravens wont do too much against a muta/ling/bling/infestor army. 3 tanks on the other hand can help quite a lot.
i think it might be worth to start off with marine/tank and later on start to transition into marine/mass raven.
2 or 3 ravens can be very effective against zerg, being able to clear creep tumors without using scans is a HUGE advantage and shouldn't be overlooked. Ravens would be worth building even if they had no abilities other than detection simply for their creep controlling power.
In low numbers auto-turrets can still be effective, especially if you can throw them down in front of the lings/blings.
On October 30 2010 01:34 Strajder wrote: Awesome build kme, I will try it tomorrow with R2D guys.
Can anyone confirm if HSMs have friendly fire or not? If they don't, then flying them into a group of Mutas and then using the HSM would be more efficient. If they are clumped up, you only need 2 HSMs.
Yeah, seeker missiles deals damage to yourself too.
On October 29 2010 12:13 apmspam wrote: wow, I used this build. Its countered by mass hydra/baneling however very few zergs have the discipline to do that.
damn guys I guess we can't use this build because it's "countered" by hydra/baneling. Shucks.
I'm really starting to hate this word "countered". Post a replay, raise your concerns about possible reactions, but don't try it once and proclaim it to be countered by X! Odds are much higher that you made mistakes. The game is not black and white, there is no table of this countered by that countered by this. Well, there's probably some stupid strategy guide out there that has such a table but I digress.
The build leaves room for splashing tanks. While you probably don't even need them if you play well, a few tanks will do a lot of damage to both banelings and hydras. If you post a replay I bet we can find the real reason why you lost though. I doubt it had anything to do with your build getting "countered".
Sorry if I come across like a dick, that just really bugs me and it's not good for the strategy forum.
Bratok stream live right now http://www.goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=7562 He just used this against a zerg, a 35mn long game on metalopolis, he massed raven, even made 4 battlecruisers, with mass marines and some marauders, and mass expanding, that was a beautiful game, one of the best I saw, because the zerg was really good too. I wish he released the replay, that was an epic game.
Ho, and usualy bratok will make a single banshee before a raven, to kill stuff, like lings standing on xelnagas, scout a little, kill tumors if he can. It fits in the build nicely.
^ i use one banshee/no cloak too in most matchups vs a zerg. it does fit in nicely, ive been doing it lately and has been really worth it
i've used my own modified build of this and gone virtually undefeated vs 1900-2300 zergs and i jumped to 2000k rating from 1450 in a <week i actually posted about this strat weeks ago but didn't shine much light onto it. great to see its becoming more mainstream now.
On October 30 2010 04:14 MrCon wrote: Bratok stream live right now http://www.goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=7562 He just used this against a zerg, a 35mn long game on metalopolis, he massed raven, even made 4 battlecruisers, with mass marines and some marauders, and mass expanding, that was a beautiful game, one of the best I saw, because the zerg was really good too. I wish he released the replay, that was an epic game.
Ho, and usualy bratok will make a single banshee before a raven, to kill stuff, like lings standing on xelnagas, scout a little, kill tumors if he can. It fits in the build nicely.
BratOK is amazing, I have been watching his stream a lot and realized that he can make any strategy work. I saw him do a mass raven strategy against terrans like 2 months ago. From then on I've been using ravens and now I win 90% of my TvTs because of them.
On October 30 2010 04:14 MrCon wrote: Bratok stream live right now http://www.goodgame.ru/news.php?ocd=view&id=7562 He just used this against a zerg, a 35mn long game on metalopolis, he massed raven, even made 4 battlecruisers, with mass marines and some marauders, and mass expanding, that was a beautiful game, one of the best I saw, because the zerg was really good too. I wish he released the replay, that was an epic game.
Ho, and usualy bratok will make a single banshee before a raven, to kill stuff, like lings standing on xelnagas, scout a little, kill tumors if he can. It fits in the build nicely.
BratOK is amazing, I have been watching his stream a lot and realized that he can make any strategy work. I saw him do a mass raven strategy against terrans like 2 months ago. From then on I've been using ravens and now I win 90% of my TvTs because of them.
yeah, he just won a very long game against Jimpo using mass raven :D (and tanks and marines and vikings, but he had 12+ ravens)
On October 30 2010 01:37 Kryptix wrote: The only problem with doing the tank version that I see is that you reduce your mobility and ability to hit hard and fast with constant pressure that this build is based on... I'd rather just double PF expand with this than go with tanks because of that... Maybe add some reactor blue flame hellions in place of some marines to soft counter baneling busts, but roaches really aren't a hard counter to mass stim marines. I just feel that its not worth sacrificing mobility for a build built around mobility...
Also, I think getting 2-4 vikings might actually be more valuable than tanks because it will force mutas to protect overlords which effectively counters roach/baneling.
Yeah, I'm thinking that this is a big issue with this build, Zerg's 2nd base will kick in faster most of the time and they have the ability to hit you before you get your non-stop stream of 9 rax marines fully up.
I made marine/raven my general TvZ strategy now. While Zerg going banelings still make it difficult, I have yet to encounter a zerg player using infestors - or rather, using them well. As said many times, marauders don't make your life easier against roaches or ultralisks (but I had to try it anyway) - marines get anything done.
I found that adding some blue flame hellions from the excess minerals one gathers over time make it even easier, especially if the zerg sticks to ling/bling/hydra.
Two more games, first was against muta/ling, second against roach/ling/hydra/ultra. There's still a lot I can do better, but as a basic TvZ approach, this strategy rocks.
You guys may like to know that you can work in a 3 hellion drop by getting a medivac off your second port instead of immediately building a tech lab. Let me see if I can't get a rep of it up.
Edit: I think you might even be able to get Blue Hellions if you delay stim...
Okay, I finally ran into a zerg on ladder and yes you can do a hellion drop with this build quite easily and you can even get blue flame. You really do actually need stim when you do your big push with your first raven(s) if he is going for mass banelings so take that into consideration.
I think doing blue flame hellion drop might be overcommiting to it. That's a lot of resources to shell out especially if zerg isn't going the conventional muta/ling/bling and instead going bling/roaches/muta. If you do trade your armies he won't be able to do much against regular hellions roasting his drones.
General Notes: Yes, I could have played better. I could have gone to constantly depopulate his third with hellions or even kill it(though he had like 5 drones there when I scouted). I could have also not kept dying to mutas but such is life on metalopolis and idiotic blizzard maps with tons of space around the edges. I think the main thing I could have done better was get my key upgrades. I forgot both HSM and building armor for the longest time and it didn't occur to me to build a second tech lab for stim since I skipped building armor anyway.
If you ever lose that big first raven push THAT badly and zerg goes all-in and doesn't take a fourth, you very well may end up having to go into hero hold mode... I lost the first raven push pretty badly and then the second was just complete garbage decision making and the third was jsut terrible positioning. Once I got the planetary down at the gold, Zerg couldn't do anything with his rubbish econ. To be quite honest a more competant zerg should have won that after the third push failed.
Also a good demo of what you can do with the early poke in any TvZ build. 2 Ovies for 2 marines is great. You might also want to save scan for the 2nd 20 marine poke so you can kill all Z's creep tumor ends. This features a somewhat late 1st raven push because I was being bad at macro and didn't get my tech up as fast as I could. :-\ It also is a decent idea to put up some turrets if you can't kill his mutas.
Also you might want to wait to the end because about 10 HSMs go off within a 5 second period.
Shock, in the first game how did you know he was going mutas? You had turrets all around before he even started a spire. And you never scanned the spire either? Was it just from the fact that you only saw speedlings so you assume he will go muta/ling?
On October 31 2010 01:04 ninjamyst wrote: Shock, in the first game how did you know he was going mutas? You had turrets all around before he even started a spire. And you never scanned the spire either? Was it just from the fact that you only saw speedlings so you assume he will go muta/ling?
I always build turrets against zerg, even without checking whether there's in fact a spire. The number of zerg players I encounter that don't at least try to go mutas is so small that it's usually well invested minerals.
1300 diamond here so I know my opinion doesnt really matter but I really like this build. They key to winning vs any zerg ground forces that arent banelings is to repeatedly trade armies and constantly denying expo's from the zerg.
I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
That is difficult, you're going to have to use atleast 3 groups and just split. The easiest way to to control group them. You can also stagger them so you have a small clump infront with a gap, and another gap, and another small group behind that and another grap with small group behind that.
On October 31 2010 11:05 te3l wrote: 1300 diamond here so I know my opinion doesnt really matter but I really like this build. They key to winning vs any zerg ground forces that arent banelings is to repeatedly trade armies and constantly denying expo's from the zerg.
I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
For marine control, the way I find easiest is to not have a control group at all. have them all selected (there you can use a control group obviously), then move them, select 3/4th of them, move them somewhere else, once again select (with mouse by draging a selection around) 3/4th or half of them, move, and again and again until you have a smal group not worth microing. If you're really fast you can make control groups on the fly, but that's too hard for me so I just mouse select everything, once used to it it's easy. Don't forget that the more effective you are in marine micro, the better this build with work because you increase the balance of the marine/gaz+larva trade more and more in your favor along with your increase in micro effectiveness.
Make some practice marine control session against an easy CPU or unit tester, and you will be used to it very fast and become more and more proficient and effective with it. Try to have like 60 marines and split them in smallest possible groups the fastest you can.
On October 28 2010 00:18 MrCon wrote: You have to register (for free) to watch the first game, but you have to buy a premium account to see the second/third game. But I guess you can find them too for free on sites like http://sc2.plu.cn/
I used google translate to find replays on that site. Had a chuckle at this comment on the front page:
In fact, the Air Force is very simple, I made the n-control tower, control of the four full-time imperial dragon and parasitic insects, and that they only made the Japanese boats and medical (medical boat to treat the Zerg air units), queen to come out Dragon up to seduce, and then Japan and then shot up with Japan second, very simple. is a lot of trouble early, need to manually hit the roadblock. because you like the back was first hit destroyed the Zerg will drain the dog, very annoying.
I think I worked out "japanese boats" are vikings and "parasitic insects" are zerglings. But "drain the dog" is beyond me.
Question about the opening - I like the idea of walling off with CC and barracks. I don't like having to build the reactor as it kind of messes up my wall, even if I add depth with depots it's kind of weird.
Since KME's opening gets 50 gas for a reactor and then stops, can I just skip the refinery and build a second barracks instead? Then, after my CC I'd build the refinery and start mining gas.
I'm really paranoid about my walls, and I realize if zerg scouts it he'll realize something fishy is going on - but I'm willing to accept that, especially since he'll likely see my CC anyways.
I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
On October 31 2010 15:38 PROJECTILE wrote: I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
In terms of walling off, you really wall with what you have. This build is quite dynamic and a lot of people reach the point of marine + raven a lot of different ways (early 2nd rax, 1 - 1 -1, etc.) Its also hard for me to know exactly when this bust is coming, but in general you will probably have a barracks and a factory at this point with a third production building at least done or in progress. You are right to suspect a bust if you see a very high number of lings. If you suspect a bust you immediately lift all your production to your wall. It generally takes 3 non supply buildings too wall off a ramp or so. If you dont have them, then quickly drop a bunker behind the vulnerable supply depot (I am assuming you wall supply, rax, supply)
In regards to your second question, you really just grab the expansion when you feel safe. You can normally do this by building 2 bunkers at your expo before landing the CC you built in base. If they are constantly camping the expo, or if for some reason you dont feel secure normally baneling busts set them back a bit on tech so I would get a banshee first out of your starport to clear a way for your expo and also to harass their mineral line.
On October 31 2010 11:05 te3l wrote: I have one problem against muta/bling's. Can anyone give me tips on how to micro better? I can't seem to split my marines fast enough or run them one by one into banelings.
I am only Gold, so please excuse me for giving advice to you, but I think that practicing marine spread micro in the Editor is a small price to pay for this awesome build. I am absolutely going to practice the hell out of it. What's even better, it even works amazingly well in team games! Though Feedback/Storm of HTs can shut it down pretty damn good. But I'm not complaining about it. ^^
I was at 1650~ earlier tonight and decided to go on a marathon after 2~ weeks of mia... out of the 26 games I played today about 16-18 of them were zergs. I won all but 2 of the TvZs and am now in the 1930's~. This is a really really good TvZ build. I recommend it a lot.
BTW: First game I lost was against a ling/roach, because I forgot to research stim 2nd game was against a 2k~ zerg where he went 2base sling all in on my expo 3rd game was vs a guy I beat in a game before.. he adapted and went mass baneling/ling all-in
This build really punishes you if you aren't on the ball the whole time!
a little question: how crucial is good marine micro for this build? can it be done by some high platinum/low diamond guy with quite good macro but rather bad micro?
im just asking because the replays dont really show how strong the impact of micro is on the effectiveness of this strategy.
On October 31 2010 15:15 pat965 wrote: Question about the opening - I like the idea of walling off with CC and barracks. I don't like having to build the reactor as it kind of messes up my wall, even if I add depth with depots it's kind of weird.
Since KME's opening gets 50 gas for a reactor and then stops, can I just skip the refinery and build a second barracks instead? Then, after my CC I'd build the refinery and start mining gas.
I'm really paranoid about my walls, and I realize if zerg scouts it he'll realize something fishy is going on - but I'm willing to accept that, especially since he'll likely see my CC anyways.
You can try the second opening if you like. Its my somewhat more defensive with 2 rax CC then double gas. I don't think it is as good as KME's since you can't pressure zerg's natural expo much.
On October 31 2010 15:38 PROJECTILE wrote: I have a question about dealing with baneling busts, particularly off a fake FE (as in, they get a fast second hatch at natural then go straight to drone cut to bling bust). What kind of walloffs/structures are you getting? Do you recommend walling off with your CC? add a single bunker? double rax / 1 depot wall-off? I can hold it off easily, but I'm always a little uncomfortable on when to expand if I see them getting a lot of early lings. Obviously it means they aren't droning as hard as they could, but I find it hard to move out of my base at the beginning of the game. Once I get the FE down and start laying down bunkers, I obviously transition just fine into mass marines, but if they do show a lot of lings early (implying early bling bust), when do you finally move out to grab your expansion? Looking for high diamond+ advice only, thanks.
I actually haven't run into this but I would suspect that the major part of the response really depends on how well you scout. You just need to see it in time and act accordingly with whatever you feel like like floating extra barracks to the wall. As for moving out. You could get a tank with siege to expand and just mule your main minerals. T isn't that badly behind if they can't float their CC out.
On October 31 2010 21:03 Black Gun wrote: a little question: how crucial is good marine micro for this build? can it be done by some high platinum/low diamond guy with quite good macro but rather bad micro?
im just asking because the replays dont really show how strong the impact of micro is on the effectiveness of this strategy.
No one really has the micro tool set for this build yet except for basic baneling micro. The big part of this build is constant macro so get that down first if you are learning this build. You may also want to work on your early game scouting. You can do Day[9]'s practice routine of moving an SCV around the middle of LT. As for the marine control, you can literally A-move your giant marine balls and only micro your ravens at lower levels.
BTW - There are many things that this guide still needs. It needs a decision tree for how to respond to zerg. It needs a guide for marine/baneling micro. I also needs a guide for raven use/turret placement. If anyone has reps or advice that can help, feel free to post. I'm also looking for reps preferably in the 1500+ Diamond range.
I do have a tip regarding the raven micro. This may be old news for many players, but it did help me once I noticed it.
You're probably moving your ravens around with the rest of the army or as a separate group, and once you want to start setting up turrets (or PDD/HSM), you'll probably do so by keeping Shift pressed to quickly drop multiple turrets from multiple ravens. However, this will queue the turrets (or the PDD, or the HSM) up behind the raven's current move command - first, they'll move to where ever they were going in the first place, then they'll drop turrets.
This has lost me countless battles before I actually noticed it; before I just wondered why my ravens weren't doing what I told them. So if you're about to do something with ravens, either issue a stop command or move-click them to where they are at that moment so that they stop and can directly start deploying stuff.
On October 31 2010 23:01 nalgene wrote: Durable materials( extends auto-turret duration to 240 seconds from 180 ) research when players get 3rd base seems good?
and the +1 range upgrade for auto-turrets?
of course ! The +2 building armor and the +1 turret range are making a huge difference against mutas, and +2 armors helps your (auto)turrets a lot against lings.
Yea I think the main thing with this style is microing your marines against the banelings, cause most of the time when they see you going mass marine they'll just go mass baneling infestor which is the toughest combination to deal with and you cant just a-move your marines you have to realy have a good split
The thing with mass baneling/infestor is that he has no response for ravens and I always tend to get a massive raven ball. Z can fungal them but doesn't have anything good way of killing them. Infested Terrans are slow to pop and weak. Ravens can also cast while fungal so they can throw down auto turrets to keep infestors away. Additionally Z cannot pressure you because all he has are speedlings, blings, and infestors. If you are macroing effectively and keeping your ravens alive, then your raven numbers will get out of control and you will just have another marine ball up by the time your previous one is dead.
I think KME played a similar strategy on the Lost Temple towards the end of his first rep pack.
I tried this in one ladder TvZ and several ladder random team games, and I must say that this didn't work only when:
1) In TvZ, I had a macro slip-up. 2) In team games, when at least one of the opponents was Protoss and went mass HTs supported by Chargelots or Collossi. Like I said, Feedback and Storm seem to counter this build pretty well. 3) In team games, when all the opposing players would attack me at once and my allies didn't react in time.
Also what do you think about not taking the SCVs off gas so you can get the +1, shield and stim upgrades a bit faster or does taking them off get more minerals for the fast expo more important ?
Whenever I play against this build, I tend to find roach + Infestor a lot more effective than ling + bling, especially early on, since you can fend off the first push without actually losing all of your units...
Whenever I use this build, I find that getting a good containment with bunkers and eventually pushing with tanks just wins the game...
On November 01 2010 01:18 Anther wrote: Whenever I play against this build, I tend to find roach + Infestor a lot more effective than ling + bling, especially early on, since you can fend off the first push without actually losing all of your units...
Whenever I use this build, I find that getting a good containment with bunkers and eventually pushing with tanks just wins the game...
Thats why when i do this build i build more raxes rather then reactors. This way i can switch to mass Maruaders. What nice is that with so many raxes you can build just 1 cycle of reapers mid game for back stabbing.
P.S. Against roaches weapons upgrades are very important. Especially plus 1
On November 01 2010 01:18 Anther wrote: Whenever I play against this build, I tend to find roach + Infestor a lot more effective than ling + bling, especially early on, since you can fend off the first push without actually losing all of your units...
Whenever I use this build, I find that getting a good containment with bunkers and eventually pushing with tanks just wins the game...
The problem with Roach Infestor is you're putting so much gas for only defending against a few hundred minerals. If I saw an opponent massing Roach/Infestor, I would just hold off my first push and wait for a Raven to kill off the creep, and then just fly in to HSM your Infestor, since you lack an entirety of Anti-Air.
I didn't save the replay, so I'm sorry that I can't go link it but I played someone who went pure Roach/Infestor against this build. I literally just got 6 Ravens and HSM'd all of his Infestors and then it was just Roach vs 1/1 or 2/1 Marine/Raven, which is just a total joke. You need to get Hydra's or Mutalisks to stop the Ravens, most people going Roach builds get the former. And OP does a quite fine job showing how to counter Roach/Hydra/Infestor
And all of the people saying they do this but with Reactors or Tanks or whatever, you're not doing the build right. You're doing something completely different. The entire premise of this build is to constantly lose your army and trade minerals for gas and larvae until you overwhelm them.
I'll let KME answer questions about his build since he's been tweaking it much.
With regards to Mutas vs Hydras, I have more issues with Hydras than Mutas because Ravens die so fast to Hydras. The issue with that though is that Hydras can't pressure me. I think either stockpiling more energy for HSM, PDD, expoing, or just plain getting a few tanks can deal with Hydras.
On November 01 2010 01:35 Antisocialmunky wrote: I'll let KME answer questions about his build since he's been tweaking it much.
With regards to Mutas vs Hydras, I have more issues with Hydras than Mutas because Ravens die so fast to Hydras. The issue with that though is that Hydras can't pressure me. I think either stockpiling more energy for HSM, PDD, expoing, or just plain getting a few tanks can deal with Hydras.
Hydras autotarget Ravens when they come into range, thus making it difficult to HSM them. The fact that Hydras put out a gazillion DPS doesn't help either.
On October 31 2010 22:46 Shockk wrote: I do have a tip regarding the raven micro. This may be old news for many players, but it did help me once I noticed it.
You're probably moving your ravens around with the rest of the army or as a separate group, and once you want to start setting up turrets (or PDD/HSM), you'll probably do so by keeping Shift pressed to quickly drop multiple turrets from multiple ravens. However, this will queue the turrets (or the PDD, or the HSM) up behind the raven's current move command - first, they'll move to where ever they were going in the first place, then they'll drop turrets.
This has lost me countless battles before I actually noticed it; before I just wondered why my ravens weren't doing what I told them. So if you're about to do something with ravens, either issue a stop command or move-click them to where they are at that moment so that they stop and can directly start deploying stuff.
Alternatively, hold down T (without shift) and click where you want each turret. Multi-cast without queuing problem.
On November 01 2010 01:35 Antisocialmunky wrote: I'll let KME answer questions about his build since he's been tweaking it much.
With regards to Mutas vs Hydras, I have more issues with Hydras than Mutas because Ravens die so fast to Hydras. The issue with that though is that Hydras can't pressure me. I think either stockpiling more energy for HSM, PDD, expoing, or just plain getting a few tanks can deal with Hydras.
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/userstream.php?user=TheGunrun Tarson vs a zerg here atm, Tarson doesn't use the raven strat, but his marine micro/split is one of the best I saw. I don't know how he does it, his marine ball split in 4 or 5 directions simultaneously, but he have just one control group if I saw correctly. I really would like to know what his technique is.
(sorry if I use this thread for a more large TvZ strategy, it's one of the best TvZ topic on TL atm imo so I make some offtopic TvZ posts, OP, if you don't want this, just tell me I'll stop my offtopic posts )
Man, I've been using this in ladder. It feels great to have so many marines early on and be safe from rushes, yes even baneling busts. But if you aren't really aggressive, especially at shutting down expos, you will die horribly and think that this build is garbage
I think that 20 marine push with cs and +1 is really essential. And it's difficult to stick with only marines for too long, you have to get either ravens or tanks to support unless you have great micro. I lost so many marines to banelings last night, it's really a lesson in humility
On November 01 2010 01:18 Anther wrote: Whenever I play against this build, I tend to find roach + Infestor a lot more effective than ling + bling, especially early on, since you can fend off the first push without actually losing all of your units...
Whenever I use this build, I find that getting a good containment with bunkers and eventually pushing with tanks just wins the game...
The problem with Roach Infestor is you're putting so much gas for only defending against a few hundred minerals. If I saw an opponent massing Roach/Infestor, I would just hold off my first push and wait for a Raven to kill off the creep, and then just fly in to HSM your Infestor, since you lack an entirety of Anti-Air.
I didn't save the replay, so I'm sorry that I can't go link it but I played someone who went pure Roach/Infestor against this build. I literally just got 6 Ravens and HSM'd all of his Infestors and then it was just Roach vs 1/1 or 2/1 Marine/Raven, which is just a total joke. You need to get Hydra's or Mutalisks to stop the Ravens, most people going Roach builds get the former. And OP does a quite fine job showing how to counter Roach/Hydra/Infestor
And all of the people saying they do this but with Reactors or Tanks or whatever, you're not doing the build right. You're doing something completely different. The entire premise of this build is to constantly lose your army and trade minerals for gas and larvae until you overwhelm them.
I'm not making roaches to defend, I'm making them for map control.
If I wanted to defend I'd make spines.
Ya'll are acting like it's a crime to use gas to defend against an expensive mineral army o_O. Infestors are anti-air as far as I'm concerned, lol. If the rines are ever forced to retreat, ravens are probably pinned down, and it's not as all powerful. Plus, when HSM's were used against me, I just ran my infestors until the HSM's died. I lost a positional advantage, but the battle was going on in the middle of the map.
My main goal against marine/raven is to stop the terran them from expanding, while attempting getting a bigger force of infestor + ultra or something else that'll work at the late game stage and using roach mobility to snipe command centers, since a huge part of the build is for terran to keep expanding, right? Every T I've played has been using their mobility to try to expand from what I've seen.
And though you say tanks + marauders are unnecessary and a different build, I feel that sometimes the situation really does call for a small tech switch, as a tank vs a zerg that's turtling with spines forces them to stop making drones and move out in some way.
Plus I think making hydra is a death sentence, at least early on due to the fact that you're massing RAVEN. PDD will make them completely useless. I mean, I've thought this stuff out, and you're arguing like it's just straight up unbeatable if played right. Which would not be fair. I mean, why would I listen to the guy that's saying to make units that get hard countered by the build in order to stop the ravens. PDD stop muta and hydra I think, and even if they don't stop muta, ... marines!?!? .
Yes I'm sure the build can counter a roach heavy build, but I just want to assume for the moment that it'll come down to positioning and tactics that occur during the game as opposed to your declarations that the zerg has spent gas vs an all mineral army... a mineral army that's full of expensive gas intensive units.
On November 01 2010 01:18 Anther wrote: Whenever I play against this build, I tend to find roach + Infestor a lot more effective than ling + bling, especially early on, since you can fend off the first push without actually losing all of your units...
Whenever I use this build, I find that getting a good containment with bunkers and eventually pushing with tanks just wins the game...
The problem with Roach Infestor is you're putting so much gas for only defending against a few hundred minerals. If I saw an opponent massing Roach/Infestor, I would just hold off my first push and wait for a Raven to kill off the creep, and then just fly in to HSM your Infestor, since you lack an entirety of Anti-Air.
I didn't save the replay, so I'm sorry that I can't go link it but I played someone who went pure Roach/Infestor against this build. I literally just got 6 Ravens and HSM'd all of his Infestors and then it was just Roach vs 1/1 or 2/1 Marine/Raven, which is just a total joke. You need to get Hydra's or Mutalisks to stop the Ravens, most people going Roach builds get the former. And OP does a quite fine job showing how to counter Roach/Hydra/Infestor
And all of the people saying they do this but with Reactors or Tanks or whatever, you're not doing the build right. You're doing something completely different. The entire premise of this build is to constantly lose your army and trade minerals for gas and larvae until you overwhelm them.
I'm not making roaches to defend, I'm making them for map control.
If I wanted to defend I'd make spines.
Ya'll are acting like it's a crime to use gas to defend against an expensive mineral army o_O. Infestors are anti-air as far as I'm concerned, lol. If the rines are ever forced to retreat, ravens are probably pinned down, and it's not as all powerful. Plus, when HSM's were used against me, I just ran my infestors until the HSM's died. I lost a positional advantage, but the battle was going on in the middle of the map.
My main goal against marine/raven is to stop the terran them from expanding, while attempting getting a bigger force of infestor + ultra or something else that'll work at the late game stage and using roach mobility to snipe command centers, since a huge part of the build is for terran to keep expanding, right? Every T I've played has been using their mobility to try to expand from what I've seen.
And though you say tanks + marauders are unnecessary and a different build, I feel that sometimes the situation really does call for a small tech switch, as a tank vs a zerg that's turtling with spines forces them to stop making drones and move out in some way.
Plus I think making hydra is a death sentence, at least early on due to the fact that you're massing RAVEN. PDD will make them completely useless. I mean, I've thought this stuff out, and you're arguing like it's just straight up unbeatable if played right. Which would not be fair. I mean, why would I listen to the guy that's saying to make units that get hard countered by the build in order to stop the ravens. PDD stop muta and hydra I think, and even if they don't stop muta, ... marines!?!? .
Yes I'm sure the build can counter a roach heavy build, but I just want to assume for the moment that it'll come down to positioning and tactics that occur during the game as opposed to your declarations that the zerg has spent gas vs an all mineral army... a mineral army that's full of expensive gas intensive units.
The goal is to keep your ravens alive, not your marines, I don't know why you would abandon them? Anyways, I'm really curious about this build, do you have any replays of you defeating the build?
On October 31 2010 22:46 Shockk wrote: I do have a tip regarding the raven micro. This may be old news for many players, but it did help me once I noticed it.
You're probably moving your ravens around with the rest of the army or as a separate group, and once you want to start setting up turrets (or PDD/HSM), you'll probably do so by keeping Shift pressed to quickly drop multiple turrets from multiple ravens. However, this will queue the turrets (or the PDD, or the HSM) up behind the raven's current move command - first, they'll move to where ever they were going in the first place, then they'll drop turrets.
This has lost me countless battles before I actually noticed it; before I just wondered why my ravens weren't doing what I told them. So if you're about to do something with ravens, either issue a stop command or move-click them to where they are at that moment so that they stop and can directly start deploying stuff.
Alternatively, hold down T (without shift) and click where you want each turret. Multi-cast without queuing problem.
This is even better, I didn't know that worked. Thanks!
I think people are taking the trading = good as more of a given and the idea of Marine/Raven as only Marine/Raven all the time. I'll clarify my initial point about trading: It is advantageous for Terran to trade marines for gas while stockpiling its own gas units, spending minerals to control Zerg's gas is your goal. This doesn't mean you should just throw your marines away for any amount of gas. You want to be maximizing their usefulness through decision making and control. You can still get rolled over by better zergs that can spend their gas to get units that they can use to demolish your composition not to mention exploit bad positioning of your marine blob. This is especially true of zerg's that I've seen better exploit positioning and 2 base play - not auto taking their third and getting rolled over by the 30 marine push + Raven push.
As for Marine/Raven composition: Marines and Ravens are the core of your composition because this is a style rather than a build and the builds listed are various FEs that can set you up for this play style OR SOMETHING ELSE. Don't confuse this with a build that gets you X number of A and Y number of B. You can diversify to whatever you want depending on your need: Hellions are good at killing speedling blobs, Marauders are good at tanking and killing ultras, tanks are good at defending, banshees are good for harassing, vikings are good at killing things that can't hit them, etc.
I think out of all the zergs that I have played with this, the most dangerous are the ones that mass roaches/blings with a sprinkling of hydras and infestors who are able to turtle on 3 bases.
Edit: For some reason I think its feasible to get some Reapers after 3 base due to the massive army trades...
I've been using this strat after reading the guide and practicing in custom games several times. The main problem Ive been having is after the first 20 marine push, either it doesn't do enough damage and I'm immediately faced with a large amount of banelings on my second push followed by an uncontrollable muta force. Most zergs at the 1700-1800 level will go baneling before muta when they see a reactor racks. Then when they see more rax planted outside your natural they almost always start adding infestors. With a couple mutas the ravens get cleaned up before they can get back to base. My biggest problem may be my inability to micro correctly. When I see a huge amount of banelings I almost immediately panic.
Against Roach ling baneling. During my 30marine 2 raven push i only have enough energy for 2 turrets. The engagement usually starts rather quickly. Immediately I must throw down 2 turrets, stim my marines and spread. If the banelings have speed this must take place extremely quickly for the marines not to get taken out almost instantly. Not sure what I'm missing but when I try to spread my marines or stim run shoot run shoot I can't get away fast enough and all my marines just evaporate. By that time I haven't been able to take down a hatch or drones and am now behind. I have 4 ravens sitting at my base with low energy and about 10-15 marines and face a huge counter attack of lings.
I wish blizzard would change the AI to auto target banelings. That would drastically reduce the amount of micro required to survive a mass baneling play. Right now it seems like only people with incredible hand speed can pull this off.
I hope you all advice on how to improve my play with this build. I really would like to use it as most of my other options seem terrible now.
eurgh, this build is pretty disgusting. I've been playing around with it even though i'm not T (main Z). Been beating 1.4-1.8k Z with it. Biggest trouble I've had so far using it (other than fail macro etc) is slightly more infestor than normal from the Z. They're able to pin down the Marines and quickly expo. Hence reaching the 4th base and getting ultras/broodlords out.
I also think the way for muta/ling/bling to beat it is just to pin your rines in base. If u have to leave 20 marines in base to def agaisnt mutas.. well it's hard to pressure. Work-around so far has been to spam turrets...which also don't cost gas.
I'm thinking Muta opening are still fine provided you're REALLY aggressive with them. But then u have to switch out for infestors while grabbing a 3rd.
I'm not gonna ladder till I work out a way to comfortably beat this.
(might even make a thread devoted to beating this build, as I strongly believe it'll become standard soon as more ppls catch on).
This is pretty sweet when it works but I find myself getting completely rolled like every other game by Zerg cutting drones and making mass ling/bling off two base after he sees me FE and throw down more rax.
On November 01 2010 14:26 me_viet wrote: eurgh, this build is pretty disgusting. I've been playing around with it even though i'm not T (main Z). Been beating 1.4-1.8k Z with it. Biggest trouble I've had so far using it (other than fail macro etc) is slightly more infestor than normal from the Z. They're able to pin down the Marines and quickly expo. Hence reaching the 4th base and getting ultras/broodlords out.
I also think the way for muta/ling/bling to beat it is just to pin your rines in base. If u have to leave 20 marines in base to def agaisnt mutas.. well it's hard to pressure. Work-around so far has been to spam turrets...which also don't cost gas.
I'm thinking Muta opening are still fine provided you're REALLY aggressive with them. But then u have to switch out for infestors while grabbing a 3rd.
I'm not gonna ladder till I work out a way to comfortably beat this.
(might even make a thread devoted to beating this build, as I strongly believe it'll become standard soon as more ppls catch on).
I agree. As a random player, when I spawn zerg vs this build I just can't win. I practiced a bit with viet here and I did atrociously. I then went to ladder, spawned zerg on xelnaga caverns and wouldn't you know it, it's this fucking build. I didn't go roach hydra but MASSS baneling. I couldn't keep up macrowise, as I've been getting worse it seems. Terran macro is just insane off two base only marine raven. I would kill his whole army and he'd be back to where he was just at a few seconds later.
In retrospect I should've gone mass infestors as opposed to the 4 I got. Ultra's came out eventually and those did ok. What really hit's zergs hard about this build is it takes away control. As IdrA talks about, he goes muta's to take control of the game. This does not work with this style of terran play. I'm not sure what can put pressure on this build.
Also, as a random player, I just might use this. Despite the fact I despise massing one unit in a 1v1.
How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
I have basically switched to this build for all my TvZs except when the zerg goes roach infester (becuase although I feel it works, there are better options). Normally against infesters I would get a few more medivacs and drop raven count because gas into infestors is money not going towards baneling (which are the 2 primary counters against mass bio). In addition, splitting your forces is pretty important if they are catching you in the middle of the map, but otherwise if they get you running up the ramp there isnt much I can see you doing other than having medivac to heal it and possibly attacking multiple locations and hoping to catch a base without infesters.
I still feel the best response from zerg against this build is using infester + roach play and transitioning to relatively fast ultra.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
HSM will 1shot an Infestor. Stim marines should be able chase down an Infestor, especially if you have a few Concussion Shell Marauders in your mix, unless said Infestor is fungalling your entire army.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
If they try some solo infestor shenanigans you must spot it before they fungal all your marines. If you do, just stim 3-4 marines and focus the infestor while running away with other marines. This will screw them and usually force them to waste a fungal on 3-4 marines, you may even kill one of the infestors if they sent a couple.
GSL SPOILER ALERT, those games were played like 10 minutes ago, fake Boxer series, don't read if you don't want to know the outcome of games 2 and 3 ! + Show Spoiler +
in games 2 and 3 the zerg made a "high eco baneling bust" as artosis called it, a normal fast expand then when he has the econ to constantly make banes and slings he cuts worker and send waves after waves of blings, Foxer opened mass rax fast expand, despite walling with raxes he lost horribly. Couldn't keep up in production capacities against 2 injected hatches
I find that the constant aggression with your Marines is the key here. From the minute you have your initial 5 Marines, you should be actively searching the map for stray Overlords and scout Zerglings, and take them down. Whenever you spot an Overlord, you should focus it with Marines.
A Diamond Protoss player playing Zerg with me to practice this build had a hard time to respond properly to the early aggression.
On November 01 2010 21:02 Strajder wrote: I find that the constant aggression with your Marines is the key here. From the minute you have your initial 5 Marines, you should be actively searching the map for stray Overlords and scout Zerglings, and take them down. Whenever you spot an Overlord, you should focus it with Marines.
A Diamond Protoss player playing Zerg with me to practice this build had a hard time to respond properly to the early aggression.
yeah. And if you can kill an overlord with your initial 4-5 marines, usualy you win right here because your can reinforce fast and kill more overlords.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
HSM will 1shot an Infestor. Stim marines should be able chase down an Infestor, especially if you have a few Concussion Shell Marauders in your mix, unless said Infestor is fungalling your entire army.
HSM is the most useless POS against infestor play. If the Z controls it properly there is NO WAY you will ever hit an infestor with a HSM. Infestors are faster than HSMs even off creep and with its shitty range just ONE fungal growth will screw you up big time since it has such a crazy radius.
Also it's pretty stupid to get ravens instead of medivacs imo since the medivacs will give you great mobility and much higher retention rate. Against a AOE zerg (Infestor/Sling/Bling) you just keep throwing your forces away while remaining terribly cost-inefficient.
On November 01 2010 14:49 Hail Eris wrote: This is pretty sweet when it works but I find myself getting completely rolled like every other game by Zerg cutting drones and making mass ling/bling off two base after he sees me FE and throw down more rax.
Yeah, I've starting to run into big problems from turtling 2 base play. I haven't run into aggressive 2 base play with ground army of 2 base zerg vs 2 base Terran so I can't comment on it except to say you probably want to turtle and go harass. You just can't be effectively aggressive. Ironically this is what low diamond zergs that can't macro well keep doing. It seems that their intuition is right. You're going to have to make several changes against 2 base mass bling zerg unless you have godlike micro and APM.
The major one is that the 30 marine push on your first two ravens won't be able to do much. You will likely need to wait for the third pair of ravens for a major push. I wouldn't be 100% passive before that though. You should be able to do decently off creep and snipe tumors near the edge of the creep.
I think the key tech for engaging off 2 base vs a 2 base is HSM in your first major engagement. Waiting until your third round of Ravens should give you two HSM and 4 turrets in the bank as well as a huge army. If zerg hasn't attacked you, you're going to have to advance onto creep. Chances are he's just going to retreat to his hatch where he can reinforce and surround easier so kill as much creep as your can and don't move too far onto the creep. Wait for it to disappear. Position your ravens constantly near the front of your marines incase Z attacks. When you push all the way to the outside of the nat, you can setup a contain. Spread your marines out and try and bait the zerg army into attacking by sending small groups of marines or with turrets. HSM when you can force the zerg to attack. You just need the zerg to attack and time your HSMs so your ravens can launch them almost ontop of the banelings so the HSM gets its speed up boost right when it launches and there is no escape. The main issue with this would be infestors fungaling do you really need to spread everything out.
Composition wise counters to 2 base mass bling: I'm skeptical about tanks but they seem like an obvious thing to try. Marauders as well may be worth trying out. Harass centric play may be worth trying if he doesn't get a billion muta. A Battlecruiser might just be an epic counter. It really depends on how the timing goes down.
On November 01 2010 20:33 MrCon wrote: And you're right in your OP, in game 2 and 3
GSL SPOILER ALERT, those games were played like 10 minutes ago, fake Boxer series, don't read if you don't want to know the outcome of games 2 and 3 ! + Show Spoiler +
in games 2 and 3 the zerg made a "high eco baneling bust" as artosis called it, a normal fast expand then when he has the econ to constantly make banes and slings he cuts worker and send waves after waves of blings, Foxer opened mass rax fast expand, despite walling with raxes he lost horribly. Couldn't keep up in production capacities against 2 injected hatches
I haven't seen it yet, is it about the same as the one Match Point build in Pokebunny's pack?
I haven't seen the ICCUP-maps replay pack yet GSL spoiler again + Show Spoiler +
In game 1 he made tanks with his mass marines and defended the same thing very well. Mostly because his 2 tanks in the front of the weakest part of the wall (a supply) were tanking the first banelings, so after the bust there were a few banes left and his marines could clear them + the lings)
The games after (on steppes then on LT top against left so very close again) he only made marines but walled with a lot of raxes and bunkers and supply, but there were so many blings that he was overwhelmed. But you HAVE to watch this serie, it's one of the bes tserie since sc2 release, all 5 games are a must see, and Foxer's marine micro is just out of this world, he's the perfect demonstration that the better your marine micro is, the better trade you make against banelings. And he explained he makes no control group too, he just split on the fly with selection boxes.
I havn't had problems with anything against this build so far...building armor upgrades makes turrets basically invulnerable versus mutas....but generally the zerg can't afford too many mutas becuase all gas is going to banelings and infestors to try to stop my constant marine balls. As soon as my first 20 marines hit with shield and maybe 1/1 and dies I constnatly have another ball of about 20 ready to go. I have found balls of about 20-30 constnatly coming in are able to keep the 3rd down and force constnatly baneling production/mutas to defend, i usually split my marines up as much as i can and don't worry about rushing ravens too, they don't make a huge difference in the beginning until you can afford about 4 anyway. A couple medivacs rather then the SECOND raven (need first to control creep), I find to be much more effective because often after all the banelings I hvae about 5-10 red marines which with medvacs are 5x more effective. Infestors don't really counter me too hard either becuase if they miss any marines in the fungal -> stim kill infestor. Every infestor lost by zerg in this 2 base battle is a HUGE loss to them.
I also never lose my raven cloud to mutas as I just use pdd and turrets to hold them off if my marine ball dies until my next marine ball arrives, also as I sadi zerg can rarely afford a really big muta ball against this strat.
I am perfect so far with this strat 7-0.
PS I alwys start with 1 tech lab 2 reactor raxes and then i expand right before my first push and make probably 3 more reactor rax.
I am jumping in this discussion way to late, but are there any replays on youtube? I cant get SC2 to run on my laptop and I'm curious to see this build in action
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
HSM will 1shot an Infestor. Stim marines should be able chase down an Infestor, especially if you have a few Concussion Shell Marauders in your mix, unless said Infestor is fungalling your entire army.
HSM is the most useless POS against infestor play. If the Z controls it properly there is NO WAY you will ever hit an infestor with a HSM. Infestors are faster than HSMs even off creep and with its shitty range just ONE fungal growth will screw you up big time since it has such a crazy radius.
Also it's pretty stupid to get ravens instead of medivacs imo since the medivacs will give you great mobility and much higher retention rate. Against a AOE zerg (Infestor/Sling/Bling) you just keep throwing your forces away while remaining terribly cost-inefficient.
You are underestimating how epic 15 auto turrets are.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
Didn't see this before. That is annoying and its more annoying that many zergs don't do this more. I suppose it largely depends on the map and rush distance and xelnaga tower vision. The last Lost Temple game from KME's first replay pack shows infestor like this usage but the game was already won by that point. I'm not sure how much terran really can do about it with any unit comp besides mixing in medivacs or a few SCVs to offset the damage. I mean, how do you counter this normally, iEchoic?
A few stim marines can destroy an infestor quite quickly so you might be able to spread your marines out a little bit.
Maybe some reps would help?
EDIT: I also updated the OP. Also, please post reps if you need some troubleshooting.
I'm just a lowly platinum player, so I don't know how practical this is at the higher levels, but one thing I've found helpful is, when I'm leading my bioball with ravens, I'll lead the ravens ahead of the marines so if I catch banelings I can HSM them before they get to the marines while stimming the marines from behind at the same time. It helps alleviate the damage from the banelings.
So I've been digging into this strategy more. At its core, it's mass marines and mass expand into a raven lategame (supplement with medivacs and tanks along the way). My main question is: why ravens over any other gas dump: especially upgrades. 3/3 bio just TEARS through stuff. Watching KME's latest replays he often stays on very low upgrades throughout the game. Yet the games are basically won with marines alone. The ravens aren't any more game ending than any other big unit would be in the final battles.
I'm on the fence about whether ghosts (which I've had bad experiences with in the past in TvZ) would be the better option as a counter to infestors (and cloaked snipe + marine micro spread for banelings). Or BCs even, to force the zerg off of roach/baneling/infestor (which seems like the hardest thing to deal with). Ravens give you a long time of vulnerability while their energy is building up, during which you can get creamed. And I'm not sold on their lategame payoff...
Ofc 1 raven will still be necessary to deny creep and scout for burrowed banelings...
Ravens with Hunter Seeker can catch some Zergling/Baneling blobs off guard I think. And they can deny expansions for Zerg.
As a Zerg, I encountered this for the first time today. I was caught completely unaware, and thought he was doing some sort of Marine into Battlecruiser push (where did all his gas go?). I used Fungals really effectively, but every time I killed off his army, he had another one ready to go. How would I defend against this strategy? I feel like mass Infestors to simply continuously Fungal Growth would be a solution, but it's difficult to catch all the Marines before they snipe out a few Infestors.
Because you can carpet large chunks of the maps with auto turrets that can be used to delay/harass/defend/attack zerg with impunity. Eventually you have enough for HSM spam as well. They detect, give high ground vision and have the highest gas/min ratio.
If you want higher replays, look at PokeBunny's reps. He is 2K+ Diamond and generously donated some reps to this guide. Most of the games are on ICCUP maps with longer distances and open centers.
I'm not sure why more high level players have posted in here. Would like to see other a more high level take on this. Syndicate was generous enough to try this out so hopefully he'll come back with some reps. Thanks!
I'm glad I came across this thread, and I've been using it with mixed results.
I think the biggest pitfall is the learning curve and VERY high skill level in both micro and macro this build requires. In other words, unless you are Diamond + (I am not) microing your Ravens and Marines is often very difficult against mass banelings, followed up by mutas looking to snipe your ravens (which are annoyingly difficult to micro btw).
Here is how to micro this build guys, one control group for your marines, one for your ravens and medvacs, have the air units follow a couple marines (shift left click a bunch of them so if the one following dies they still follow), then when you are close to engagement drag a box over the right 3rd of marines go right, drag a box over the left 3rd of the marines, go left, drag a box over the back few marines go back, basically you are just trying to get the zerg to waste as many banelings as possible, dont worry about the lings getting some free hits on you, its not a big deal, as long as you continually deny a 3rd, you will keep trading until the first base is run out of minerals, or your raven ball gets big enough that you can spam like 15 turrets in his main and just laugh as they kill infinite lings/roaches/slowly kill tech buildings. Again if your raven ball is getting messed up by mutas because all your marines died, use pdd and some turrets to hold your position and wait for marines, or alternatively use pdds to retreat. You MUST constnatly have another ball of 20+ marines waiting for you at all times, its not hard to macro this, just occasionally select your raxes and hold down a is the most important part.
On November 02 2010 22:09 Losticus wrote: I'm glad I came across this thread, and I've been using it with mixed results.
I think the biggest pitfall is the learning curve and VERY high skill level in both micro and macro this build requires. In other words, unless you are Diamond + (I am not) microing your Ravens and Marines is often very difficult against mass banelings, followed up by mutas looking to snipe your ravens (which are annoyingly difficult to micro btw).
lol tbh i don't think this build requires that good of a macro level lol. It's the micro that makes or break this build. Macro is just select cc -->s, select all rax --> aaaaaaaaaaaaaa , select starport--->vv
Im going to give it a shot, seems ok, but I fail to see how you are going to avoid banelings. Inevitably you are going to be pushing on creep, and I just dont see how 1 raven and 20 marines is going to beat 15 lings and 5-6 banelings, even with micro. It seems like this is essentially a tank marine opening with delayed tanks and a raven instead. That opening always seems to get demolished by muta ling/bling. But ill give it a shot, thanks for the write up.
On November 02 2010 23:22 Darpa wrote: Im going to give it a shot, seems ok, but I fail to see how you are going to avoid banelings. Inevitably you are going to be pushing on creep, and I just dont see how 1 raven and 20 marines is going to beat 15 lings and 5-6 banelings, even with micro. It seems like this is essentially a tank marine opening with delayed tanks and a raven instead. That opening always seems to get demolished by muta ling/bling. But ill give it a shot, thanks for the write up.
lol i don't think the point is to 'beat' that army, if u traded that army with the Z, which u will if u do this strat. THat's 10 less drones the Z could've had. and as a Z player, that's HUGE.
Kind of off-topic, but could ghost be used as a gas dump instead of ravens?
You're already upgrading them anyway. +3 ghosts do scary damage against light armored units. You get cloaked harass and eventually can get 3-4 academies for very annoying nukage play.
I think that people are not getting how often your ground army gets wiped, but because the ravens are flying, they get to live, retreat and turn into a super ball of AT/PDD death. With ghosts which multiple people have suggested, I really feel that you would lose them to the blings/slings. Also you wouldnt have the infrastructure, in place for making medvacs.
Don't forget, its a war of attrition, drop some turrets at the mineral line if your fighting near there and even if all you do is force them to run the drones for 10seconds and kill 2 zerglings thats great for the purposes of this strategy.
Yet another game where marine/raven worked. This is - like my other replays - low to mid level diamond, with myself being around 700-800 and opponents between 600 and 1.400 (this zerg is at 1.400).
Many zerg seem to be totally caught off guard once they realize that muta/ling/bling doesn't work how they want it too, and are surprised that despite just having lost countless marines, the terran attacks again.
At about 1700 diamond I'm really finding that my success hinges on how well I can dodge banelings early on. Roach openings are really easy to beat of course. I'm still losing most of the games but usually just when I let them get their third. Ultralisks are a nightmare, I don't know what to do when they come out.
Even though I win more games with the Drewbie build I'm not giving up on marine raven! The games are so much more fun. I need to be more willing to get tanks, though. Infestors and banelings are very cost effective at killing marines. Also, is it just me or is xelnaga caverns just impossible? I don't remember the last game I won there against z or p.
i've stopped doing this or even attempting it. Ravens are horrible in comparison to getting the same cost of tanks or medivacs. Or both.
HSM is just not fast enough or consistent enough to matter. And since you are going mass marines anyways, zerg usually goes mass baneling/ling/infestors (infestors if they don't suck) and then you can't HSM because by the time you HSM they're already at ur marines.
I'd just use the resources for medivacs/marauders or siegetanks/thors imo. Or even two port banshees. 10x better than ravens. Ravens are basically like gambling.
On November 03 2010 08:32 avilo wrote: i've stopped doing this or even attempting it. Ravens are horrible in comparison to getting the same cost of tanks or medivacs. Or both.
HSM is just not fast enough or consistent enough to matter. And since you are going mass marines anyways, zerg usually goes mass baneling/ling/infestors (infestors if they don't suck) and then you can't HSM because by the time you HSM they're already at ur marines.
I'd just use the resources for medivacs/marauders or siegetanks/thors imo. Or even two port banshees. 10x better than ravens. Ravens are basically like gambling.
Most of the replays have very little use of HSM and more use of the auto turret....
Maybe you issue is your trying to HSM when you should be using pdd or auto turrets.
On November 02 2010 20:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: Because you can carpet large chunks of the maps with auto turrets that can be used to delay/harass/defend/attack zerg with impunity. Eventually you have enough for HSM spam as well. They detect, give high ground vision and have the highest gas/min ratio.
If you want higher replays, look at PokeBunny's reps. He is 2K+ Diamond and generously donated some reps to this guide. Most of the games are on ICCUP maps with longer distances and open centers.
I'm not sure why more high level players have posted in here. Would like to see other a more high level take on this. Syndicate was generous enough to try this out so hopefully he'll come back with some reps. Thanks!
I was actually hopping for higher level replays than just 2000 diamond. Those games posted don't really showcase your build much, if at all.
On November 01 2010 15:07 iEchoic wrote: How would this handle solo infestors running up and fungaling you repeatedly as you move across the map? I tried this out today and I saw no answer for this.
i used ghosts with some success here. snipe and emp got more range than fungal, you already have techlabbed raxes anyway (for marine upgrades), ghost academy is light on gas, and ghosts cost less gas than ravens, and you only need 2-3. snipe is preffered, 2 snipes always kill infestor ,ghosts spawn with enough energy for 2 snipes and if your zerg opponent managed to get more than 2-3 you can always emp them quite easily, since they tend to clump, and not many zergs expect emp in tvz.
On November 02 2010 23:22 Darpa wrote: Im going to give it a shot, seems ok, but I fail to see how you are going to avoid banelings. Inevitably you are going to be pushing on creep, and I just dont see how 1 raven and 20 marines is going to beat 15 lings and 5-6 banelings, even with micro. It seems like this is essentially a tank marine opening with delayed tanks and a raven instead. That opening always seems to get demolished by muta ling/bling. But ill give it a shot, thanks for the write up.
The key to this build is to really keep ontop of your macro. As long as you're doing enough damage with your army and not losing your whole army outside your nat, you should be fine. Remember that ever baneling dead is another baneling that will have to be rebuilt. Not only did Zerg need to build the initial banelings instead of drones but zerg has to get something to replace it. If you are doing this build well, you should be able to maintain worker parity or better with zerg.
The first Raven push is closer to 30 marines if you keep your macro up. You need to push out with the raven to combat the creep spread. One or two turrets isn't that useful in direct combat but I find that they are good in constricting space, increase the vision around your army, or for setting up the beginnings of a contain.
You should have already have had a force of 20 marines go out and kill the whole zerg army in the name of the God-Emperor or kill most of his nat because he had too little of an army - of course you can retreat and there are times it is better to retreat. Perhaps the key to banelings is getting a 2nd tech lab for stim. You usually have a idiotic amount of gas and minerals piling up by that time anyway.
On November 03 2010 02:38 Senorcuidado wrote: At about 1700 diamond I'm really finding that my success hinges on how well I can dodge banelings early on. Roach openings are really easy to beat of course. I'm still losing most of the games but usually just when I let them get their third. Ultralisks are a nightmare, I don't know what to do when they come out.
Even though I win more games with the Drewbie build I'm not giving up on marine raven! The games are so much more fun. I need to be more willing to get tanks, though. Infestors and banelings are very cost effective at killing marines. Also, is it just me or is xelnaga caverns just impossible? I don't remember the last game I won there against z or p.
Yes it is fun . This build is so fun to pull off. As for Ultras... well it depends on if zerg has been sitting on two or three base. Two base ultra is kinda pathetic but 3 base ultra is hard to deal with unless you are even or ahead in bases. My instinct says you are massing up your marines and letting zerg get his third up too often since you are talking about ultras and such. The best way to combat ultras and infestors is to kill the third or force him to pour so many resources into defending it that he can't effectively transition into a late game. I hope you have better luck with it.
I roll into the zerg ramp with about 40 marines and 7 ravens. I scout ahead w/ comsat and see a huge ball of lings / banelings w/ some roach inc some muta. I rush in with marines and see the ball rush towards me.
I let fly w/ 4 Seeker Missiles, making sure to target so I spread my dmg out, and the entire ball goes red.
I think Seeker Missiles are underused and are very, very powerful.
The range is short for a reason.
Anyways thank you very much for the strat, I enjoy it and it is now my main zerg strat!
On November 02 2010 23:22 Darpa wrote: Im going to give it a shot, seems ok, but I fail to see how you are going to avoid banelings. Inevitably you are going to be pushing on creep, and I just dont see how 1 raven and 20 marines is going to beat 15 lings and 5-6 banelings, even with micro. It seems like this is essentially a tank marine opening with delayed tanks and a raven instead. That opening always seems to get demolished by muta ling/bling. But ill give it a shot, thanks for the write up.
The key to this build is to really keep ontop of your macro. As long as you're doing enough damage with your army and not losing your whole army outside your nat, you should be fine. Remember that ever baneling dead is another baneling that will have to be rebuilt. Not only did Zerg need to build the initial banelings instead of drones but zerg has to get something to replace it. If you are doing this build well, you should be able to maintain worker parity or better with zerg.
The first Raven push is closer to 30 marines if you keep your macro up. You need to push out with the raven to combat the creep spread. One or two turrets isn't that useful in direct combat but I find that they are good in constricting space, increase the vision around your army, or for setting up the beginnings of a contain.
You should have already have had a force of 20 marines go out and kill the whole zerg army in the name of the God-Emperor or kill most of his nat because he had too little of an army - of course you can retreat and there are times it is better to retreat. Perhaps the key to banelings is getting a 2nd tech lab for stim. You usually have a idiotic amount of gas and minerals piling up by that time anyway.
On November 03 2010 02:38 Senorcuidado wrote: At about 1700 diamond I'm really finding that my success hinges on how well I can dodge banelings early on. Roach openings are really easy to beat of course. I'm still losing most of the games but usually just when I let them get their third. Ultralisks are a nightmare, I don't know what to do when they come out.
Even though I win more games with the Drewbie build I'm not giving up on marine raven! The games are so much more fun. I need to be more willing to get tanks, though. Infestors and banelings are very cost effective at killing marines. Also, is it just me or is xelnaga caverns just impossible? I don't remember the last game I won there against z or p.
Yes it is fun . This build is so fun to pull off. As for Ultras... well it depends on if zerg has been sitting on two or three base. Two base ultra is kinda pathetic but 3 base ultra is hard to deal with unless you are even or ahead in bases. My instinct says you are massing up your marines and letting zerg get his third up too often since you are talking about ultras and such. The best way to combat ultras and infestors is to kill the third or force him to pour so many resources into defending it that he can't effectively transition into a late game. I hope you have better luck with it.
What is the Drewbie build anyway?
yeah you're pretty correct in that instinct. I need to keep throwing marines at his third more aggressively, and probably use drops more.
The drewbie build is a reactor hellion FE into fast thors. It's very macro oriented and you get a good 140 food force of thors, marines, hellions, and banshees with +2 mech weapons at 14 minutes. While there is very little harrassment in the build you can hold off muta harrass easily and the death ball is very strong with several scvs to repair. It's a little difficult on maps with wide open naturals and most zergs try to bust when they see the reactor hellions. If they are too aggressive though, they get outmacroed pretty bad.
I am practicing this strategy a lot, it is very fun to play, but there are some limitations... Firstly, it is very difficult if your opponent goes Ling/Bane after the fast expo instead of mutas. I guess this is countered by bunkers, but it completely shuts down your initial marine attack. I don't have a replay for this.
Also, it also gets difficult when they make lots of roaches+banelings+mutas, your army just gets rolled over. I had lots of accumulated resources, I kinda get why I lost, but our armies were close in food count, and I still got pwned.
Its also highly difficult to deal with when they get infestors roaches and banelings. I know it is gas heavy but they don't need a lot to obliterate your marines. Even so, I managed to handle that unit combination and lots of others, but it became impossibly difficult when he got upgraded ultras in a fair amount. Please look carefully at the replay, this is one of my better games and yet at the end, even with food advantage, I got stomped.
I know there are lots of things such as supply block, spending resources, etc. etc., but you have to be MUCH better than your opponent at microing in order to even have a chance at not losing everything. My opponent didn't even need to dodge heat seeking missiles, I wonder how badly I would have lost if he did.
I watched the first game on sands, Bozon. You had 3K minerals and 2K gas at the end. Even with 11 single barracks worth of production and 2 SP. You actually were ahead the whole game until the semi-botched engagement at the zerg expo. Even then, if you had macroed, you would have been fine and won in two or three pushes.
There were points in the game where you had 10+ harvasters on the zerg. :-\ You have to have a second army waiting to go after your previous one dies and you stop macroing everytime you look away. Other issues were that you were quite passive despite getting two queens and a few roaches at the very beginning. You also may have teched slightly too quickly because you had a ton of gas but that is hard to avoid.
This is really one of those builds that lends it self to the macro/a-move/ignore army and go back to macroing training method until around mid-diamond. I kid you not. You can even sit at home with your ravens and get a giant ball of them while you keep macroing 50 food armies and a-moving them. Then just move out and paint the map with turrets.
I'll look at the other one tomorrow. :D Glad you have fun atleast.
On November 03 2010 13:26 Antisocialmunky wrote: I watched the first game on sands, Bozon. You had 3K minerals and 2K gas at the end. Even with 11 single barracks worth of production and 2 SP. You actually were ahead the whole game until the semi-botched engagement at the zerg expo. Even then, if you had macroed, you would have been fine and won in two or three pushes.
There were points in the game where you had 10+ harvasters on the zerg. :-\ You have to have a second army waiting to go after your previous one dies and you stop macroing everytime you look away. Other issues were that you were quite passive despite getting two queens and a few roaches at the very beginning. You also may have teched slightly too quickly because you had a ton of gas but that is hard to avoid.
This is really one of those builds that lends it self to the macro/a-move/ignore army and go back to macroing training method until around mid-diamond. I kid you not. You can even sit at home with your ravens and get a giant ball of them while you keep macroing 50 food armies and a-moving them. Then just move out and paint the map with turrets.
I'll look at the other one tomorrow. :D Glad you have fun atleast.
Okay, I'll look forward to it, that second game should be very entertaining (47 min long, but the part I'm worried about is up to 30 something) =] Also, the first problem I mentioned (Ling/Bane) is EXACTLY what Gerbil did against pokebunny dude, it is waaay difficult to stop when they have so many, I think its one of the greatest flaws in this strat, if you don't bunker up.
@Z-BosoN Saw that second game—you must not be afraid to apply early pressure to Zerg. In this game, you let him tech alot. If you catch him off-guard, then usually you can just constantly reinforce and do alot of damage. Make sure you are constantly making marines also. You could have easily had an army twice his size. You had a bunch of reactored raxs but only queued one marine in each sometimes...
As for the banelings, he didn't have that many to begin with in the early stage of the game. You could have also limited the creep spread with occasional pressure. What I usually do is stim a small group of marines, run them into banelings, then bring in my main army. If he still has more banelings, make sure to spread out your marines to minimize damage. If he has infestors, again, spread out a group or two of marines that will focus fire the infestors.
In short, don't be afraid to lose your marines because you can remake them quite quickly as long as you macro effectively.
On November 03 2010 12:56 Z-BosoN wrote: I am practicing this strategy a lot, it is very fun to play, but there are some limitations... Firstly, it is very difficult if your opponent goes Ling/Bane after the fast expo instead of mutas. I guess this is countered by bunkers, but it completely shuts down your initial marine attack. I don't have a replay for this.
Also, it also gets difficult when they make lots of roaches+banelings+mutas, your army just gets rolled over. I had lots of accumulated resources, I kinda get why I lost, but our armies were close in food count, and I still got pwned.
Its also highly difficult to deal with when they get infestors roaches and banelings. I know it is gas heavy but they don't need a lot to obliterate your marines. Even so, I managed to handle that unit combination and lots of others, but it became impossibly difficult when he got upgraded ultras in a fair amount. Please look carefully at the replay, this is one of my better games and yet at the end, even with food advantage, I got stomped.
I know there are lots of things such as supply block, spending resources, etc. etc., but you have to be MUCH better than your opponent at microing in order to even have a chance at not losing everything. My opponent didn't even need to dodge heat seeking missiles, I wonder how badly I would have lost if he did.
Any thoughts on how to handle these situations??
okay i watched the second replay and the biggest thing i noticed was that you weren't doing what the whole build is based on - constant aggression and trading. His third and fourth went up uncontested and you never attacked until he was already at hive tech (other than the first suicide attack with ~10 marines). You cannot be that passive with any build as terran or you will usually get outmacroed by zerg. You also built a lot of bunkers early on and that hindered your ability to develop infrastructure.
Throughout the game you had a lot of idle barracks and a whole lot of money, just hotkey all those together and hold down 'a'. You were also pretty liberal with stim, even using it to destroy the rocks at the gold, but you only had 2 medivacs. After you both played defensively and massed up close to 200/200 and finally clashed with evenish results (the ravens should have been more involved in that fight) he immediately started popping more larvae. He had 3/3 upgrades for his ultras at that point, i'm not sure what he was waiting for. Your barracks were sitting still. The beautiful thing is that you can keep trading armies, you'll retain the ravens and have another huge mass of marines to throw at him while the raven flock gets bigger and more dangerous. All those auto turrets at his fourth was perfect, they are great for that and he can't do much to stop it.
29:00 aaaahh all your ravens! you can't afford to leave them so vulnerable directly over all those hydras and mutas. Now the ultras come out but you split pretty well with the marines, it's a tough fight once they start coming though. Your barracks are idle, there's no shame in queuing them up all the way when you have 5k minerals. I like to see that you're going for a drop...
33:00 awesome drop! now he has no income, but a lot of ultralisks...i was worried about your dropships but he didn't get a fungal on them, it's okay to lose the marines, just make sure you keep your dropships and ravens alive.
34:30 here comes the counter attack, he's dead broke and all you have to do is hold it off... 35:00 ouch, the marines were really bunched up and got fungal growthed pretty bad. You lost all your ravens trying to get off those seeker missiles, honestly auto turrets probably would have been better.
Those ultralisks sure are tough when they're fully upgraded. The marauder transition was great, and you held him off very well despite losing your PF. You really should have taken the island expo a while ago, I know it's easy to forget but that could be making a huge difference. Your late game decisions weren't all that bad though, I'm not sure I would have done better, but you could have been in a better position with a more aggressive early and mid game. That many ultralisks is a nightmare, and most terrans will lose at that point. Just try to be more aggressive with those marines and dropships, force his larva! And keep those ravens alive, a good raven cloud will win the game. Luckily he didn't make that many banelings so you didn't have to worry that much about splitting the marines, although better splitting would have helped against some of those brutal FGs.
Hey cool strat, being using it with moderate success and just wanted to ask you a few qs about it.
1. Is the trading really that important? In BW, it was important for T not to lose his mnm ball early or he would have a tough time facing the impending mutalisk harras and therefore delaying his midgame push, allowing z an easier time to grab 3rd and faster tech or hive.
2. Have you considered marine push --> marine, medivac, tank --> late game transition into marine/mar, med, tank, raven. The reason for this is that ravens don't seem to be as strong composition against mid game z army (sorta like what avilo said earlier). i.e. you can get much more out of a couple of tanks or medivacs in the midgame than in a couple of ravens. The other reason seems to be that while marines are cheap and replaceable, they seem way to fragile to (blings/infestor combo) without the support of medivacs or tanks.
The other reason why i tihnk late game ravens are stronger is that, typical mid game z unit compositions tend deal well ravens, however late game z compositions (ultras/BL) dont seem to be able to match the mobility and versatility of ravens, where the z may have 4+ expos and you easily go around pop down turrets at each base and fly away and there is very little z can do about that.
@Z-BosoN You were somewhat afraid of Z for no good reason in the second game. You also didn't scale your production to fit the number of bases you were up to. Zerg's last push was rather amazing that it managed to take your main out so kudos to him. You had pretty good raven use too.
@Beith #1 - Yes it is important but with the caveat that you shouldn't be suicidal. There are times when your 20 marine poke shouldn't engage such as when zerg is massing tons of units. I always make it a point to save a scan for it. The timing for muta seems to come right before your big mid-game push. Muta harass isn't the same as BW muta harass and is somewhat less dangerous to deal with. That and the short rush distances on many maps makes it viable to counter vs muta harass and win the game right there.
#2 - Marine/Medivac tank is certainly viable and you are right that there are problems with going straight to Raven KME was trying to figure out a way to work in fast tanks and I don't mind making a few rounds of medivacs when I'm low on gas needed for fast upgrades.
So I finally lost with the build to a guy who after my initial attack, dropped a 3rd hatch, completely stopped making drones and just made toooons of lings and sufficient banes. Totally rolled over me even though my economy was getting way ahead. I tried to get medvacs to compensate instead of my first raven but they werent enough, I think an adjustment of 2 banshees out first to help deal with this kind of response would really help. This would only apply if they are going banes first, otherwise medvacs or straight to ravens is appropriate. Massing banshees is not appropriate in this strategy because of their high vulnerability to muta/bling and relatively high mineral cost.
Been messing with this build a few days and while I beat bad ladder zergs with it, it's hard-countered by any smart enough to just make infestors (although I admit zergs smart enough to do this are few and far between). There is no way to counter well-controlled infestors with a pure marine/raven combination. They can just run a few infestors up, fungal, run back, repeat. Couldn't they also NP your raven from long-range and HSM your marines? Never had anyone do that to me, but it sounds awesome.
There needs to be some adaptation to counter infestors for this build to be viable. Ghosts are possibly the best bet, but the huge gas cost conflicts with your ravens. The OP basically tells you that you're relying on your opponent to let his infestors die to your marines and you'll be ok. Well, it's not ok if my opponent knows how to micro his infestors. Even if you turret push the infestors can still run up solo and fungal. They'll probably live, and even if they die, fungaling a bunch of marines and then dying is incredibly cost effective still.
The fact that you're fast-expanding gives the zerg plenty of time to run off 4 gas and get whatever he wants.
ghost come out able to cast 2 snipes and enough to kill a infestor. Making 2-3 ghost to snipe infestors wont cut to much into your ravens if they are producing infestors.
I still don't see the point of mass ravens at all here. If you want a gas-dump, get upgrades or tanks/thors/banshees. 1 Raven to clear creep and spot burrowed movement is of course great.
On November 04 2010 06:55 link0 wrote: Mass marines are of course fine.
I still don't see the point of mass ravens at all here. If you want a gas-dump, get upgrades or tanks/thors/banshees. 1 Raven to clear creep and spot burrowed movement is of course great.
I think the idea behind the ravens is survivability. When raven/marines fight, you lose marines and energy in an exchange. With thor/marines, for example, you lose everything if you exchange.
That said, I'm not sold on the ravens yet, but I'm still open to them.
On November 04 2010 06:49 iEchoic wrote: Been messing with this build a few days and while I beat bad ladder zergs with it, it's hard-countered by any smart enough to just make infestors (although I admit zergs smart enough to do this are few and far between). There is no way to counter well-controlled infestors with a pure marine/raven combination. They can just run a few infestors up, fungal, run back, repeat. Couldn't they also NP your raven from long-range and HSM your marines? Never had anyone do that to me, but it sounds awesome.
There needs to be some adaptation to counter infestors for this build to be viable. Ghosts are possibly the best bet, but the huge gas cost conflicts with your ravens. The OP basically tells you that you're relying on your opponent to let his infestors die to your marines and you'll be ok. Well, it's not ok if my opponent knows how to micro his infestors. Even if you turret push the infestors can still run up solo and fungal. They'll probably live, and even if they die, fungaling a bunch of marines and then dying is incredibly cost effective still.
The fact that you're fast-expanding gives the zerg plenty of time to run off 4 gas and get whatever he wants.
That's quite a bit of constructive feedback you have there. Most of the zergs I've run into that get infestors, get a later infestor and die because I have the infinite marine pump and raven cloud up. I'm not sure how to counter a relatively fast infestor which is what you seem to be describing. I ran into that strategy a total of once but he only used it to stop the first attack. I'd be very interested in some reps(keeping it private through PMs is fine by me) if you'd be willing as most ladder zergs are kinda bleh.
I think you are right about ghosts being a good bet. You will have 1/2 tech labs anyway and the raven cloud doesn't kick in immediately. Another thought though, what do you think about taking a page from your book and getting a 2-4 banshees and cloak instead of 2 ravens for the first push? Have the banshees attack the mineral line and hunt down the infestors and force multiple overseers since each overseer can only be at once place. I suppose Tanks work as well.
On November 04 2010 06:49 iEchoic wrote: Been messing with this build a few days and while I beat bad ladder zergs with it, it's hard-countered by any smart enough to just make infestors (although I admit zergs smart enough to do this are few and far between). There is no way to counter well-controlled infestors with a pure marine/raven combination. They can just run a few infestors up, fungal, run back, repeat. Couldn't they also NP your raven from long-range and HSM your marines? Never had anyone do that to me, but it sounds awesome.
There needs to be some adaptation to counter infestors for this build to be viable. Ghosts are possibly the best bet, but the huge gas cost conflicts with your ravens. The OP basically tells you that you're relying on your opponent to let his infestors die to your marines and you'll be ok. Well, it's not ok if my opponent knows how to micro his infestors. Even if you turret push the infestors can still run up solo and fungal. They'll probably live, and even if they die, fungaling a bunch of marines and then dying is incredibly cost effective still.
The fact that you're fast-expanding gives the zerg plenty of time to run off 4 gas and get whatever he wants.
That's quite a bit of constructive feedback you have there. Most of the zergs I've run into that get infestors, get a later infestor and die because I have the infinite marine pump and raven cloud up. I'm not sure how to counter a relatively fast infestor which is what you seem to be describing. I ran into that strategy a total of once but he only used it to stop the first attack. I'd be very interested in some reps(keeping it private through PMs is fine by me) if you'd be willing as most ladder zergs are kinda bleh.
I think you are right about ghosts being a good bet. You will have 1/2 tech labs anyway and the raven cloud doesn't kick in immediately. Another thought though, what do you think about taking a page from your book and getting a 2-4 banshees and cloak instead of 2 ravens for the first push? Have the banshees attack the mineral line and hunt down the infestors and force multiple overseers since each overseer can only be at once place. I suppose Tanks work as well.
I think opening cloaked banshee (supply/ref/rax for faster cloaked banshee) followed by an immediate expo into the marine/raven may be a good idea. It gives you an aggressive opening while quickly giving you the infrastructure to create ravens. I'm kind of uncomfortable FEing against Zerg now because it feels like when I play good opponents they spot my expo and just drone like mad and I fall significantly behind.
In theorycraft world, a marine/ghost/raven army should rock. You can emp or snipe the infestors, you can split your marines up against banelings and snipe the banelings as well. The only practical problem I've found is that the micro here is nearly impossible. I played one game against a practice partner who actually went sling + bling + a few infestors. He a-moves at you, gets ready to fungal you, and there's just no way to emp the infestors while running and splitting the marines simultaneously. I kind of gave up on that.
I think the reason imMVP and players like him go tank/bio is not because of blings but because of infestors. I think that tanks may be necessary if they end up doing an infestor composition, because I have trouble seeing how you can counter infestors+blings early on.
As you said, a group of cloaked banshees later on may work. You could stim a group of marines to kill overseers and then keep infestors off you with the banshees. Might try some games later.
I'm curious, how are they getting away with droning like mad? You can apply a lot of pressure at their front pretty quickly and sunks are only so good against a wall of marines without a decent amount of units to support. Are they pretty much rushing for mass ling->bling and then droning?
A Tank transition may be warranted either way as a response to the zerg sitting on two base. Zerg pretty much has to murder it to get a third up. I keep finding that zerg 2 base/3hatch macro is hard to counter with pure marines. They can make so many units that your can't control their gas as efficiently. Also the immobility of tanks won't hurt you as badly either.
I would love to see that sort of banshee play especially knowing how well you do against toss with them.
I'm not sure Banshees are really the answer to infestors. They can reveal cloaked units with fungal, and then pop infested terrans underneath them to finish them off. No overseers needed. Infestors on creep should even have a speed advantage that would help them respond to banshee harass.
Serious infestor play seems like it steals many of the advantages that the Raven build has - Infestors can trade energy for units just like Ravens can, so there's not really an advantage building up from continuous army trading while preserving spell casters.
On November 04 2010 10:11 Victim wrote: I'm not sure Banshees are really the answer to infestors. They can reveal cloaked units with fungal, and then pop infested terrans underneath them to finish them off. No overseers needed. Infestors on creep should even have a speed advantage that would help them respond to banshee harass.
Serious infestor play seems like it steals many of the advantages that the Raven build has - Infestors can trade energy for units just like Ravens can, so there's not really an advantage building up from continuous army trading while preserving spell casters.
But this strategy is a lot of fun and effective.
How are they going to fungal growth your units when they fungal growth and infested terran your banshees?
Maybe I am playing bad zergs, but I rarely have to deal with any kind of high tech unit using this strategy, often if my oppenent doenst open banelings I cripple them quickly. I concentrate on getting my 2 eng bays going before I really concentrate on ravens, and a few medvacs instead of ravens will really help against the kind of infestor play you describe iechoic. Each infestor has to make up for 6 banelings, plus the banelings lost to making the infestor lair that he doesnt have and needs some time to get enough energy to fungal more then once, and frankly without a sufficient baneling ball following up its not that effective with even 2 medivacs.
That said it doesnt matter if your force dies at the cost of an infestors and a few banelings because thats a fair trade.
Your comparison of infestors to ravens I don't feel is quite fair. Infesors are much more susceptible to death from the terran army then ravens are to death from the zerg army, one of the main advantages of this build. For example in one game, I only had 1 marine that got free of the fungle growth, but I chased down and killed 2 infestors with that marine because the infestors were out of energy (slightly injured) and I just stimmed a few times.
I havn't played any 2000+ zergs with this yet though so toss out a few replays of you getting handled if you have them.
What's extremely frustrating about ravens is that in a group of ravens, HSM on a target from a raven with energy will of course release the kraken. But without energy they just run to that point and die. The same thing happens with templar and infestors also though, I hope blizz maybe fixes that one day.
I don't know if opening up cloaked banshee really works, that is to say if we're talking fastest banshee possible. If you gas first you can get a banshee out with cloak in under 8 minutes surely, but with the marine/raven aggression build, you'd already have pressured the expansion and are preparing for a second attack, maybe if you work it in later I think it might be a good fit, but that's gas that is cutting into a raven, or stim, or engbay upgrades, or better yet, hunter seeker itself! A cloaked banshee that early may even win outright.
That isn't to say cloaked banshee doesn't work, it's a good opener, I just think rushing the banshee and then trying to get to that level of production that this build calls for, it's a little behind. Judging from all the replays this is an extremely fun build that's dependent on upgrades. Durable materials! ha!
Also as far as infestors go, if zerg has enough resources to go get a lot of infestors, you surely have HSM, maybe even durable materials. I can't see why HSM shouldn't take care of this. Especially when the common practice is to group all your infestors in a separate control group. you might get 2 for the price of 1, or more! Repairing ravens is also pretty key I've been finding.
I think this strategy is awesome, I think it's probably the most robust CONCEPT a terran build has had since SC2 was released. Everything else seems to be: do this to gain an economic advantage and therefore more units. But this focuses on the point which I think might have gotten glossed over. You're forcing zerg to exchange their cheap units, with yours, and in turn spend larva where they may not want to. Hope this makes it into Liquipedia.
In my experience, the issue isn't dealing with infestors persay. It is instead dealing with the timing of infestors. A fast infestor will basically be able to shut down any push you can do against zerg and be able to fungal everywhere. If you can get your neverending marine pump going with raven cloud and medivacs, then infestors don't really do nearly as much damage. It is when you are applying pressure with your first major pushes, and you don't have a mass of ravens up, that you have this vulnerability to infestors specifically. You must either delay your first push for HSM and sufficient ravens or you must be able to do something to counter the infestors or you go ahead and risk getting cold stopped by a fungal before you can amass enough ravens to counter this.
I think iEchoic is referring to the above situation since alot of times zerg only goes for infestors when you already have a crit. mass of ravens and are basically burning the zerg out. You can toss a few(or many) auto turrets around your attack lanes to scout flanks and prevent infestors from doing their hit and runs. Additionally because you get so many marines off 9/10 rax + of production, you can usually get map control and be able to split off small groups of 10ish marines to do stuff while you main army is doing something else like old SK Terran.
My rationale behind doing basically the FE into 5 rax into cloaked banshee before raven is to force gas into Overseers and force infestors to stay with the zerg army or die. Likewise, it gives you something immediately useful rather than snowball useful as a stop gap before your production capacity for infinite attrition is ready. Additionally Zerg now must get detection because of the threat of cloaked banshee for the rest of the game.
Of course marine->tank->raven late game is also an option.
PS. The idea isn't for fast banshees, it is just a push with banshees to control space and kill infestors until you have enough ravens to control space with turrets.
in 1 week i played like 20 games against 1900+ zerg and i only lose 1 time (first time i was using this build, so i forgot to double upgrade . it's fun to compare the number of worker at the end of my old mech game with this build. Zergs build like 2 times less drones. Sometimes it's hard to deal with some units but because of 10 rax, you are putting non stop pressure on zerg, and most of fights are far far from your base so even if you lose your entire army (except raven), you will time to rebuild and deal with his counter attack.
If you know how to play (put some towers everywhere on the map and scan during fight), infestors won't be a big problem (i always have time to snip them with HSM).
How fun is it to attack 3 places at the same time, instead playing with slooooooooooooooow tanks/thors?
As some people said, i don't really think that going for tanks or thors is a good idea. The core of the build is to harass and trade army. Raven can escape from fight, but tanks and thors will die...
Well I finally got around to watching Pokebunny's reps. I watched KME's when you had first written the post. I think the biggest difference is Pokebunny's use of ravens for turrets and an early stim, while maybe getting HSM way later. It's interesting also because PB's use of turrets acts in a similar fashion for sentry FF. He puts them in spots to deter any flanking. Additionally, most games, if any, did he get +2 armor to structures, and neither of them got +range to turrets. I imagine this is simply because of priority to weapons/armor.
Map selection also makes a big difference, those Iccup maps are really favorable towards FE, not to take anything away from PB, but I think it's certainly to the terran's advantage should the zerg want to expand early as well.
On November 05 2010 03:25 k4ne wrote: in 1 week i played like 20 games against 1900+ zerg and i only lose 1 time (first time i was using this build, so i forgot to double upgrade . it's fun to compare the number of worker at the end of my old mech game with this build. Zergs build like 2 times less drones. Sometimes it's hard to deal with some units but because of 10 rax, you are putting non stop pressure on zerg, and most of fights are far far from your base so even if you lose your entire army (except raven), you will time to rebuild and deal with his counter attack.
If you know how to play (put some towers everywhere on the map and scan during fight), infestors won't be a big problem (i always have time to snip them with HSM).
How fun is it to attack 3 places at the same time, instead playing with slooooooooooooooow tanks/thors?
As some people said, i don't really think that going for tanks or thors is a good idea. The core of the build is to harass and trade army. Raven can escape from fight, but tanks and thors will die...
bio openings with tanks is pretty standard tvz these days, and I definitely think it's viable, if a little fragile. It's funny, as fragile as say marine raven is because of the baneling micro, tank positioning is probably more fragile. One mistake and all your artillery is gone. Either you move out at a bad time, or you get too overzealous with your bio and lose it which on most cases means you lose the tanks to mutas or speedlings (they're pretty friggin good against tanks now). At least the ravens can get away and participate in the fast hit and runs.
But the tanks are great for establishing a strong point to cover the bio from banelings and infestors. They also aren't as gas heavy as ravens so you can get more marauders. You can still do the hit and runs and drops without the tanks, and if you can slow push or just siege up for a contain it's really hard for the Zerg to break. It really depends on the map and spawn locations, and they lend themselves toward playing passively which is not a good idea against zerg. I do think that a few tanks can really anchor the mass marines and help you against banelings and infestors with less micro.
Heres a replay of me beating infestors/blings at 2000 diamond if anyone is interested. This is the first replay I have uploaded so let me know if it doesn't work please.
On November 05 2010 06:25 micjmac wrote: I never tried HSM harassment on the mineral line. How effective is that? Does it wipe out a lot of drones?
not very effective imho, better use multiple autoturrets for the same energy cost imo. Unless the mineral line is hyper satured, you'll most likely kill 6 drones if extremely lucky, and 3 most of the time. (just theorycrafting here, never actualy tried)
I wouldn't try hsm on mineral lines, just use turrets. They shut down mining and they last a long time, forcing your opponent to deal with them. You'll kill a few drones as well but really the lost mining time is more important. Hsm will barely dent him because they are pretty spread out and he doesn't need to react in any meaningful way.
edit: I've been seeing a trend in the unsuccessful replays with people being too fancy with hsm. It's not THAT great tbh. I'm far from gosu with this strat at this point but I don't think you should be trying to hsm hydras, you wont kill that many and you will definitely lose that raven. Retention of those guys is most important, like a Protoss with colossi. Blanket turrets to cover the marines and/or spam pdd so the marines can mow down hydras but don't lose ravens. Save hsm for mutas, which clump up and get decimated, or banelings if the angle is right, or even infestors may not be terrible. Just my 2 cents anyway, if you watch kme's replay pack he really doesn't use it that much. If you have a huge cloud and lots of energy I could support more liberal use but spamming those upgraded turrets is usually better imo. Somebody good can dispute me if I'm mistaken
How are they going to fungal growth your units when they fungal growth and infested terran your banshees?
Going banshees means you have less other stuff (especially if you get cloak); hence they need to fungal fewer units?
I'm dropping 500/700 on ravens and all the raven upgrades when I play. :-\ I can get faster upgrades for infantry if I do this. :D
On November 05 2010 06:18 statikg wrote: Heres a replay of me beating infestors/blings at 2000 diamond if anyone is interested. This is the first replay I have uploaded so let me know if it doesn't work please.
Holy crap dude, that was both epic and hilarious. :D Awesome execution though getting upgrades could be better. Zerg reaction was priceless though.
Any replay anyone feels willing to post (win/fail) would be great for further analysis. :D
One of the overriding issues I've noticed from reps is that banelings require so much larva to mass that it blocks a lot of zergs ability to spend their money. Making zerg go overboard on ling/baneling seems definitely favorable for you. Zerg will probably adapt and throw down an extra hatch but still it is good to know.
I started practicing marine spreading vs banelings in a unit tester and completely forgot about a discussion piece that happened earlier in the strategy forum.
That using the patrol command the units have a natural sort of spread going to them.
Try this with marines and kind of mess around with it. You'll see the initial ball clump start to loosen up and spread slightly. It'll make the spreading much much easier. Cause even if you divide your marines up 3-4 times, their still clumped and will die to only a few banelings
So anticipating a battle you can patrol a bit to get the spread going and it'll remove the need for extra dividing later on in the conflict. FoxeR is extremely fast and does it manually. Selecting only a few dividing constantly. However if you get loose spread from the patrol trick, it reduces the number of divides you need to do.
Try it out in a unit tester and see whatcha you can do.
How are they going to fungal growth your units when they fungal growth and infested terran your banshees?
Going banshees means you have less other stuff (especially if you get cloak); hence they need to fungal fewer units?
2 banshee with cloask cost the same as 2 ravens.
Your army will be just as big and you can deal with infestors much easier.
not quite, the gas cost is the same but it's 300 more minerals, which does cut into your marines. I'm actually very starved for minerals most of the time. Nevertheless, it's probably worth it to kill early infestors. I use them to snipe infestors in my Thor build and it works great. I'm sure it's worth testing at least.
Regarding that patrol trick, that looks promising, I'm definitely going to try it out.
My intuition after watching Foxer is that pre-positioning units is probably the biggest part of baneling micro. Your eye can easily pick out which marine clump needs to be moved and zerg has a harder time figuring out a target. Sure the patrol thing works when you're standing still with your blob off creep but I think that being able to preposition an pseudo arc with small marine blobs and some air thing to spot make it easier.
Heres a replay of me beating infestors/blings at 2000 diamond if anyone is interested. This is the first replay I have uploaded so let me know if it doesn't work please.
I did a little playing around in a unit tester, and I found some interesting results that could impact how zerg reacts to this build. Interestingly, lings vs. marines alone, lings remain cost effective against marines until the marines are 3/3 (both units fully upgraded). In fact, lings actually beat an even number of marines in an open field until 3/3. The addition of even 2 banelings turns the tide of a 120 ling v. 60 marine battle.
What I'm getting at is that perhaps the reason this build works is that zerg have been favoring roach-heavy builds since the patch. Perhaps the correct response for a zerg is to play the same exact game. Favor minerals, build mostly lings with only a few infestors and banelings, and get a third hatch at your natural before a third expansion so you can get enough larva to support the number of lings you will need. Keep even with upgrades and you should be fine. I haven't tried this on the ladder yet, but it seems like a possible strategy.
The other possible advantage is that with the increased mineral expenditure, zerg players can conserve more gas once they do take a third, and tech hard in the lategame.
[edit] The other advantage is that the mobility and sheer number of zerglings decrease the effectiveness of ravens.
Is it possible to replace large raven counts with large Ghost counts? Mass Marine Ghost? This has the benefit of freeing up the starport. Which allows for constant medic production rather then deciding between another medic or a raven.
The Ghost would lower the effectiveness of infestors and allow for nice harass with cloak and Nukes.
On November 05 2010 12:35 pwadoc wrote: I did a little playing around in a unit tester, and I found some interesting results that could impact how zerg reacts to this build. Interestingly, lings vs. marines alone, lings remain cost effective against marines until the marines are 3/3 (both units fully upgraded). In fact, lings actually beat an even number of marines in an open field until 3/3. The addition of even 2 banelings turns the tide of a 120 ling v. 60 marine battle.
What I'm getting at is that perhaps the reason this build works is that zerg have been favoring roach-heavy builds since the patch. Perhaps the correct response for a zerg is to play the same exact game. Favor minerals, build mostly lings with only a few infestors and banelings, and get a third hatch at your natural before a third expansion so you can get enough larva to support the number of lings you will need. Keep even with upgrades and you should be fine. I haven't tried this on the ladder yet, but it seems like a possible strategy.
The other possible advantage is that with the increased mineral expenditure, zerg players can conserve more gas once they do take a third, and tech hard in the lategame.
[edit] The other advantage is that the mobility and sheer number of zerglings decrease the effectiveness of ravens.
I think you're missing the point. Marines don't necessarily need to trade favorably, although i think with combat shield, stim, faster ups and not getting surrounded(very important detail your unit tester probably missed) I think they do. Their goal is to lock up larvae, roaches don't have anything to do with it and most zergs still don't mass them against bio. They are sticking with lings, banelings, and mutas. Medivacs are also very important to the cost effectiveness of the marines.
While lings are great against bio they are the most expensive in terms of zerg's most important and finite resource: larva.
instead of ravens you get tanks. wouldnt that be better? since, 1) tank dps > auto turrent and has splash 2) tank costs less 3) tanks demolish banelings lings roaches infestors
the likely hood of pulling off a good HSM is so slim, there are chances that u HSM their muta, their muta fly on top of ur marines, everything dies.. -_-
On November 05 2010 12:35 pwadoc wrote: I did a little playing around in a unit tester, and I found some interesting results that could impact how zerg reacts to this build. Interestingly, lings vs. marines alone, lings remain cost effective against marines until the marines are 3/3 (both units fully upgraded). In fact, lings actually beat an even number of marines in an open field until 3/3. The addition of even 2 banelings turns the tide of a 120 ling v. 60 marine battle.
What I'm getting at is that perhaps the reason this build works is that zerg have been favoring roach-heavy builds since the patch. Perhaps the correct response for a zerg is to play the same exact game. Favor minerals, build mostly lings with only a few infestors and banelings, and get a third hatch at your natural before a third expansion so you can get enough larva to support the number of lings you will need. Keep even with upgrades and you should be fine. I haven't tried this on the ladder yet, but it seems like a possible strategy.
The other possible advantage is that with the increased mineral expenditure, zerg players can conserve more gas once they do take a third, and tech hard in the lategame.
[edit] The other advantage is that the mobility and sheer number of zerglings decrease the effectiveness of ravens.
I think you're missing the point. Marines don't necessarily need to trade favorably, although i think with combat shield, stim, faster ups and not getting surrounded(very important detail your unit tester probably missed) I think they do. Their goal is to lock up larvae, roaches don't have anything to do with it and most zergs still don't mass them against bio. They are sticking with lings, banelings, and mutas. Medivacs are also very important to the cost effectiveness of the marines.
While lings are great against bio they are the most expensive in terms of zerg's most important and finite resource: larva.
Actually, the real strength of this build is that is makes zerg fall back on gas heavy units to defend. Most zerg are going to get a lot of banelings and infestors v. mass bio, and the object is to army trade. The zerg ends up running out of gas, and the terran can continue producing marines off minerals. This is basically what the op said.
Larva is going to be a factor with mass lings, but that's why I'm going with a third hatch at my natural. It doesn't open me up to third base timing attack that this build relies on, and provides enough larva to constantly pump lings. 3 hatches on two saturated bases with 3 queens lets the zerg keep minerals at 0 with a few extra larva lying around. I still end up getting a baneling nest and a infestor pit, but I produce maybe 5 banelings for each wave of marines, and maybe an infestor or two. 5 banelings and an infestor is usually enough to negate the effect of medivacs and other support. After a few rounds of this, I'd expect that the terran is going to have a hard time keeping up with the ling production, (I'm actually pretty sure that a two-base zerg can outproduce a two-base terran with just pure zerglings v. pure marines), and the zerg will be able to take a third.
I won a game doing this tonight, but my opponent was pretty terrible. I'll post a replay if I get a decent opponent.
On November 05 2010 12:35 pwadoc wrote: I did a little playing around in a unit tester, and I found some interesting results that could impact how zerg reacts to this build. Interestingly, lings vs. marines alone, lings remain cost effective against marines until the marines are 3/3 (both units fully upgraded). In fact, lings actually beat an even number of marines in an open field until 3/3. The addition of even 2 banelings turns the tide of a 120 ling v. 60 marine battle.
What I'm getting at is that perhaps the reason this build works is that zerg have been favoring roach-heavy builds since the patch. Perhaps the correct response for a zerg is to play the same exact game. Favor minerals, build mostly lings with only a few infestors and banelings, and get a third hatch at your natural before a third expansion so you can get enough larva to support the number of lings you will need. Keep even with upgrades and you should be fine. I haven't tried this on the ladder yet, but it seems like a possible strategy.
The other possible advantage is that with the increased mineral expenditure, zerg players can conserve more gas once they do take a third, and tech hard in the lategame.
[edit] The other advantage is that the mobility and sheer number of zerglings decrease the effectiveness of ravens.
I think you're missing the point. Marines don't necessarily need to trade favorably, although i think with combat shield, stim, faster ups and not getting surrounded(very important detail your unit tester probably missed) I think they do. Their goal is to lock up larvae, roaches don't have anything to do with it and most zergs still don't mass them against bio. They are sticking with lings, banelings, and mutas. Medivacs are also very important to the cost effectiveness of the marines.
While lings are great against bio they are the most expensive in terms of zerg's most important and finite resource: larva.
Actually, the real strength of this build is that is makes zerg fall back on gas heavy units to defend. Most zerg are going to get a lot of banelings and infestors v. mass bio, and the object is to army trade. The zerg ends up running out of gas, and the terran can continue producing marines off minerals. This is basically what the op said.
Larva is going to be a factor with mass lings, but that's why I'm going with a third hatch at my natural. It doesn't open me up to third base timing attack that this build relies on, and provides enough larva to constantly pump lings. 3 hatches on two saturated bases with 3 queens lets the zerg keep minerals at 0 with a few extra larva lying around. I still end up getting a baneling nest and a infestor pit, but I produce maybe 5 banelings for each wave of marines, and maybe an infestor or two. 5 banelings and an infestor is usually enough to negate the effect of medivacs and other support. After a few rounds of this, I'd expect that the terran is going to have a hard time keeping up with the ling production, (I'm actually pretty sure that a two-base zerg can outproduce a two-base terran with just pure zerglings v. pure marines), and the zerg will be able to take a third.
I won a game doing this tonight, but my opponent was pretty terrible. I'll post a replay if I get a decent opponent.
Correct me if im wrong, but i believe that style of play opens you up to timing attack just before your infestors come out. Once T scouts at 3rd hatch in base, he knows u wont be going for a third anytime soon, and can mass up on rines and pump medivacs/banshees instead of ravens and roll u with a timing push. And also i don't think 2 base z can keep up with 2 base t in terms of minerals. additionally marines with stim are much more cost effective than zerglings alone, or even a few banelings mixed in. also i dont think you will be able to keep up with t's worker count if you mass lings even with a 3rd hatch in base.
I wish the zerg I play would make just 5 blings per wave I send. I'd snipe them and it would be gg for the zerg soon. Practically all the zerg I play have tons of lings, blings, and a handful of mutas. What the blings don't kill the lings/mutas do.
Banshees definitely works well with Raven. It forces Z to spend gas on detection and perhaps AA and is almost invulnerable with PDD without significant infestor energy spent to kill it, while it can counter snipe infestors anywhere. If you force Z into muta/hydra it is pure win right there, and any infestor at base to catch banshees is one not at the front. It also adds options to the army, like killing spine forests or shooting on cliff tumors, while fitting well with the main army.
Ravens actually don't force that much of a gas heavy response, since turrets can be countered minerals only.
Larva is going to be a factor with mass lings, but that's why I'm going with a third hatch at my natural.
I guess the proper response to 3rd hatch in base is blue flame since nothing else probably would cost quite so much larva.
On November 05 2010 14:42 jHERO wrote: lol, why???
instead of ravens you get tanks. wouldnt that be better? since, 1) tank dps > auto turrent and has splash 2) tank costs less 3) tanks demolish banelings lings roaches infestors
the likely hood of pulling off a good HSM is so slim, there are chances that u HSM their muta, their muta fly on top of ur marines, everything dies.. -_-
My guess would be that adding siege tanks to the mix will really lower the army mobility. One of the greatest advantage of this build is mobility you get from stimmed rine(and medivacs) and flying raven but when you add in siege tank, your fast rine ball becomes a supporting force for slow pushing siege tank line. Also, rine only costs mineral while raven costs crazy amount of gas which balances out. However, tanks costs a bit of both mineral and gas which will result in 1. Lower marine count (tanks = 3 supply and more mineral heavy than raven) 2. A lot of gas left over and not spent But when you are forced to play little defensive for whatever the situation, my guess would be that tank will help more than raven. But when you are the aggressor (which you should be when doing this build) siege tank is too immobile.
There are of course many responses to massed lings, but the point of this build is to control what the zerg is building. Every build involves some sort of sacrifice or weakness. In this case, the terran can only support a limited number of production structures per base, and generally you see a bunch of barracks with reactors, and maybe one factory and a starport or two. If the terran is going to start building banshees and hellions to counter mass lings, the whole marine/raven part of the build goes out the window. Now you're attacking with a marine/banshee/hellion army, you have to start sinking gas into upgrades for multiple units, and zerg has an easier time tech switching than terran.
I also don't think the marine is as cost effective relative to the marine as people think. I did a number of test, using stim and combat shields, with equal mineral cost groups of marines and lings. The lings won every time until the marines got to 3/3, and even in that case, a few banelings in the mix turned the tide. Terrans are free to try to snipe the banelings, but when you're sniping banelings, you're not running away from the lings. Keep in mind that if the zerg is trying to keep mineral parity with the terran, he's going to have twice as many lings as there are marines, and he can replace them much much faster.
On November 05 2010 12:35 pwadoc wrote: I did a little playing around in a unit tester, and I found some interesting results that could impact how zerg reacts to this build. Interestingly, lings vs. marines alone, lings remain cost effective against marines until the marines are 3/3 (both units fully upgraded). In fact, lings actually beat an even number of marines in an open field until 3/3. The addition of even 2 banelings turns the tide of a 120 ling v. 60 marine battle.
What I'm getting at is that perhaps the reason this build works is that zerg have been favoring roach-heavy builds since the patch. Perhaps the correct response for a zerg is to play the same exact game. Favor minerals, build mostly lings with only a few infestors and banelings, and get a third hatch at your natural before a third expansion so you can get enough larva to support the number of lings you will need. Keep even with upgrades and you should be fine. I haven't tried this on the ladder yet, but it seems like a possible strategy.
The other possible advantage is that with the increased mineral expenditure, zerg players can conserve more gas once they do take a third, and tech hard in the lategame.
[edit] The other advantage is that the mobility and sheer number of zerglings decrease the effectiveness of ravens.
I think you're missing the point. Marines don't necessarily need to trade favorably, although i think with combat shield, stim, faster ups and not getting surrounded(very important detail your unit tester probably missed) I think they do. Their goal is to lock up larvae, roaches don't have anything to do with it and most zergs still don't mass them against bio. They are sticking with lings, banelings, and mutas. Medivacs are also very important to the cost effectiveness of the marines.
While lings are great against bio they are the most expensive in terms of zerg's most important and finite resource: larva.
Actually, the real strength of this build is that is makes zerg fall back on gas heavy units to defend. Most zerg are going to get a lot of banelings and infestors v. mass bio, and the object is to army trade. The zerg ends up running out of gas, and the terran can continue producing marines off minerals. This is basically what the op said.
Larva is going to be a factor with mass lings, but that's why I'm going with a third hatch at my natural. It doesn't open me up to third base timing attack that this build relies on, and provides enough larva to constantly pump lings. 3 hatches on two saturated bases with 3 queens lets the zerg keep minerals at 0 with a few extra larva lying around. I still end up getting a baneling nest and a infestor pit, but I produce maybe 5 banelings for each wave of marines, and maybe an infestor or two. 5 banelings and an infestor is usually enough to negate the effect of medivacs and other support. After a few rounds of this, I'd expect that the terran is going to have a hard time keeping up with the ling production, (I'm actually pretty sure that a two-base zerg can outproduce a two-base terran with just pure zerglings v. pure marines), and the zerg will be able to take a third.
I won a game doing this tonight, but my opponent was pretty terrible. I'll post a replay if I get a decent opponent.
I believe you are right. The smarter zergs are now countering mass marines with just mass lings. If you fight in small numbers, the lings will rape even stim/shielded marines. If you fight in large numbers, a few blings or infestors will be thrown in. Lings are actually pretty fucking good against marines.
I like the dynamic that this build forces creep spread because units need to be fast to dodge missiles. But at the same time ravens help in clearing out creep tumors.
Would be fun to see a high level game where the zerg focuses largely on infestors to counter this. Could be some cluth spell casts in that game from both sides.
Sorry if this's been ask, but how are u dealing with just a 2 base 3 hatch all-in with slings/blings/roaches (all with speed).
I've been playing this build from both sides of the table. And really, to try and macro against this build is just rediculously hard. It'll take someone of Idra calibre to have the game sense and know how much to spend on units and drones.
I've done this quite a few times haha ( I love SK terran lol) with opponents both T and Z ranging from 1k dia to 2k dia =S. THey've all been good games so far haha.
Things i've picked up (both sides): Equal base ULTRA is pitiful against mass rines lol. They don't do bonus dmg, and good spread keeps splash to a minimum so ultras end up doing a pitiful 15 dmg.
Adding a 3rd reactored starport for vikes and vacs will increase this build's power greatly (shift-queue'ing drops should be abused way more). It'll at least force mutas which melts to rines or tie up infestor into base defense. VIkes at the very least will be able to hunt oves (reducing larva unit usage).
Losing your raven ball almost always spells gg
Maybe using the fact for tanks and delaying the 2nd starport will help in dealing with 2 base 3hatch all-in.
If any1's interested i'll gather the reps 2gether and post it for criticisim.
On November 05 2010 18:57 StarBrift wrote: I like the dynamic that this build forces creep spread because units need to be fast to dodge missiles. But at the same time ravens help in clearing out creep tumors.
Would be fun to see a high level game where the zerg focuses largely on infestors to counter this. Could be some cluth spell casts in that game from both sides.
Lol I've actually got a rep of that against a 2k Z, teching straight infestor. and just getting infestor while def'ing. Some decent fungals in it it doesn't really do that much i think. INfestors are goddamn gas intensive. The thing that killed me was not realizing he took a 3rd -____-" till too many ultras came rampaging down lol.
I"ll ask him for the rep (I was at a LaN) if he wants to post it.
On November 05 2010 19:00 me_viet wrote: Sorry if this's been ask, but how are u dealing with just a 2 base 3 hatch all-in with slings/blings/roaches (all with speed).
you have to know it's coming (not easy) and produce siege tanks immediatly, while simicitying in front of your expansion (hard on xel naga). You have to pump some marauders too, because unupgraded marines sux against roaches. And if you made a starport already, make 2 vikings because the zerg will not be able to do anything about them and you can reduce the pressure a lot if you snipe some ol. And lots of bunkers is good
I dont understand how this build deals with banelings? You can separate your marines using micro to avoid the banelings but really if you're spending your gas on ravens you arent making tanks to counter them.
On November 05 2010 06:25 micjmac wrote: I never tried HSM harassment on the mineral line. How effective is that? Does it wipe out a lot of drones?
I tried sometimes to blow up some drones, but most of the time it fails because zerg will move them or burrow them so fast Turrets are better because they prevents drone from mining again and can destroy the hatchery/queen.
On November 05 2010 14:42 jHERO wrote: lol, why???
instead of ravens you get tanks. wouldnt that be better? since, 1) tank dps > auto turrent and has splash 2) tank costs less 3) tanks demolish banelings lings roaches infestors
the likely hood of pulling off a good HSM is so slim, there are chances that u HSM their muta, their muta fly on top of ur marines, everything dies.. -_-
tanks kill your own units if there is a lot of lings on the field (you will need so much upgrades to be able to kill lings in 1 shot with tank's nerf). Why do people want TANKS ?!! They are only good to defend your position (you don't wanna lose your 3rd PF on a 20+ blings rush) but not to attack with mass marines... Raven can harass, survive, protect your marine ball with a line of turrets, PDD, HSM infestors, deny creep tumors, etc...
But sure, late game when you have like 12+ raven you can go for something else, but having a critical mass of raven is a priority.
Sorry OP, but this strategy is dead and gone (at least until balance is patched). It does not work at top levels, period.
I've personally tested many variations of the mass marine strat against a 2400 diamond Zerg player today to no success. The Boxer vs nestea games just confirmed it. The Foxer early mass marine pressure does not work against 15 hatch now that Zergs have learned the timing against this gimmick. That's all it is, a gimmick.
Speed lings >> marines in small-mid numbers even when you have stim and shields. Speed lings and banelings >> marines in large numbers. Mutas >> Ravens obviously.
There is no way to get a size-able number of Ravens before the Zerg gains complete map control and an extra saturated base on you.
On November 05 2010 20:30 link0 wrote: Sorry OP, but this strategy is dead and gone (at least until balance is patched). It does not work at top levels, period.
I've personally tested many variations of the mass marine strat against a 2400 diamond Zerg player today to no success. The Boxer vs nestea games just confirmed it. The Foxer early mass marine pressure does not work against 15 hatch now that Zergs have learned the timing against this gimmick. That's all it is, a gimmick.
Speed lings >> marines in small-mid numbers even when you have stim and shields. Speed lings and banelings >> marines in large numbers. Mutas >> Ravens obviously.
There is no way to get a size-able number of Ravens before the Zerg gains complete map control and an extra saturated base on you.
Hey linko, do you mind sending me the reps? I'd like to study them to help me beat this strat myself. But afaik, in my testing, if I know the attacks are coming, It gives me ALOT of time to drone up a fair bit b4 switching over to units prod. I think it's the uncertainty of wether the strat is being done or not.
On November 05 2010 20:30 link0 wrote: Sorry OP, but this strategy is dead and gone (at least until balance is patched). It does not work at top levels, period.
I've personally tested many variations of the mass marine strat against a 2400 diamond Zerg player today to no success. The Boxer vs nestea games just confirmed it. The Foxer early mass marine pressure does not work against 15 hatch now that Zergs have learned the timing against this gimmick. That's all it is, a gimmick.
Speed lings >> marines in small-mid numbers even when you have stim and shields. Speed lings and banelings >> marines in large numbers. Mutas >> Ravens obviously.
There is no way to get a size-able number of Ravens before the Zerg gains complete map control and an extra saturated base on you.
Can I have reps? :D I want to see what zerg does to counter this so hopefully I can figure some things out. I was wondering if going mass zergling/sunken would kick in. Plus 2400+ Terran/Zerg reps are pretty entertaining. :D
He pretended zergbong was Yelloc and played silly each game.
@ Unit tester guy. I don't think that zerglings are very efficient against marines, it depends on positioning and number of units. Marines scale linearly while melee scale less than linearly.
I have question: Can you build medivacs instead of ravens because i think ravens are to damn fragile.With medivacs you can do drops heal your marines and have a better support.
Guys, of course you can add in some medvacs or banshees here or there, see my replay on page 19 where I use a touch of both.
Link0 - I'm not convinced this build is dead, maybe mass speedlings does well against it, but then they are using all their money to make speedlings and they are not teching/droning up and although I have lost against mass speedlings (once and I didnt macro well) I believe if I pumped out a few banshees instead of my early raven, it would have gone differently, did you try that? Also, not everyone is playing at the 2400 level, in fact I would say basically nobody on this thread except you is playing at that level, so its hardly "dead" as it works well up to the 2000 level that I'm at.
On November 05 2010 06:18 statikg wrote: Heres a replay of me beating infestors/blings at 2000 diamond if anyone is interested. This is the first replay I have uploaded so let me know if it doesn't work please.
If zerg went something like pure muta/ling without lurkers(banelings in SCII), what was Terran's response? It was like Marine/Firebat/Medic or something. Why not get hellions with blue flame? you have a reactor barracks that you can swap to the factory the instant blue flame is done. That factory then becomes a 400 min/minute mineral sink that basically instantly utilizes most of the money from your second base(no 1000 mineral bubble before ports come online due to needing to get barracks up to spend money). So you can get 5 rax marine production, reactor blue hellions, and then cloaked banshee/raven.
If people thought Thor/Hellion was ridiculous, I think this would be even worse. Zerg would probably just get banelings/infestors but then you can just get more marines and air. 5Rax Marine/4port cloaked banshee or 2port BC is something I have not yet had the pleasure to mess with.
On November 06 2010 00:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: Been thinking about this amongst other things.
If zerg went something like pure muta/ling without lurkers(banelings in SCII), what was Terran's response? It was like Marine/Firebat/Medic or something. Why not get hellions with blue flame? you have a reactor barracks that you can swap to the factory the instant blue flame is done. That factory then becomes a 400 min/minute mineral sink that basically instantly utilizes most of the money from your second base(no 1000 mineral bubble before ports come online due to needing to get barracks up to spend money). So you can get 5 rax marine production, reactor blue hellions, and then cloaked banshee/raven.
If people thought Thor/Hellion was ridiculous, I think this would be even worse. Zerg would probably just get banelings/infestors but then you can just get more marines and air. 5Rax Marine/4port cloaked banshee or 2port BC is something I have not yet had the pleasure to mess with.
You just might have a good point there. Been having lots of trouble doing marine raven against people who just go pure speedlings and mutas. I'll try that and post some results. The only problem i see would be scouting for it as he might just go roach heavy. Mutaling really establishes alot of map control for the Zerg.
hm, have anyone tried marine/helion build? u can even not to gather gas after u have 250 for stim and blue flame (and u ll need some gas for add-ons).
marines kill everything exept banelings, when hellions with good micro can kill banelings good enough i think
so u can just place more and more expoes even without gas and getting more and more hellions and marines. hellions can be good support vs roaches when their aoe attack is used good enough.
Theory: A full marine drop early is very deadly if targetting drones and can force mutas(earlier imo) since you can scoop before blings/slings hit. A banshee or double banshee can snipe queens, severely limiting larva production. A marauder/rine drop might be more efficient against queens but the banshees allow for transition to raven if needed. Teching cloak forces spores/seers. That much more units not on the field.
Has anyone tried bunker hopping with this? Ravens out front to PDD/turret wall mutas from sniping scvs, marines to fend off lings.
I've been doin this strat for awhile now and it's been strong but also been very very weak at points and ive actually branched out into rather than massing Ravens getting maybe 4 ravens a handful of siege tanks and a few medivacs along with a buttload of marines. seems strong this way in that if you look away from your army at the wrong time you dont get a bunch of fuungals and then banelings all over your face and also allows more turtley type players use raven marine effectively. I'd really liek to see more pros incorperate ravens into their play it really does strengthen the amry overall by a significant amoutn at least at diamond level. maybe at pro level it isn't worth it?
I've seen Flintzenith so mass raven but his way of doing it seems more like a gimmick than a full fluid standard type strategy although what makes a standard strategy standard... all the current pro standards are rather weak atm.
I think hellions are the most natural response to mass lings, 5-6 of them can kill approximately one million lings (relax, that is hyperbole). Seriously though, they will roast many lings and are hard to surround in bigger numbers since they can burn an escape route. There are plenty of reactors lying around that the fact can steal after preignitor finishes.
The micro would be insane, though! Splitting marines away fom banelings while trying to kite with hellions, I can't wait for such epic virtuosity to be displayed.
There are so many options for transitions, you can decide to spend your gas on whatever you want, it seems too hasty to say the build isn't viable. We saw in staticg's replay that one banshee can be a beast, and a few medivacs can help 10 marines kill a lot of lings. What amazing marine control, fungal looked almost useless. And the ravens and autoturrets weren't even upgraded. That Zerg stuck to mostly lings and infestors with a few banelings, and the Terran was damn late on his third. He also could have defended it a little better, but Zerg did a good job of abusing the mobility of his lings. I think they both played very well and had some room to improve, and that game is a great example of how to play the build. I hope it gets included in the OP.
edit: I love the banter at the end of that game
Zerg: but I raped you! Terran: I know! That's how this build works! Zerg: but I RAPED you! (paraphrased, of course)
On November 05 2010 21:36 Antisocialmunky wrote: @ Unit tester guy. I don't think that zerglings are very efficient against marines, it depends on positioning and number of units. Marines scale linearly while melee scale less than linearly.
Test it yourself. Given an equal mineral value of marines and lings, even with combat shields and stim, the lings win until the marines hit 3/3. Micro will of course come into play, but that's a matter of player skill. All else being equal, lings are cost effective against marines.
Also, for those suggesting unit replacements to counter mass lings, once the zerg has made you shift your unit composition, they have sent you off-build. That is an advantage that can be exploited. Zerg are much more efficient in a tech switch than terran. If you produce hellions, the zerg will pop out a few roaches, and roaches are very very coast effective against hellions.
[edit] The point here is not for the zerg to vary their unit composition, but rather to make their army more cost effective. The reason this build works is because it forces the zerg to spend gas on blings and infestors. I'm saying that the zerg can spend a lot less on blings and infestors if they have mineral parity with marines. If you have 16 marines, and a zerg comes at you 16 lings and two blings, that's pretty easy to outmicro. If the zerg comes at you with 32 lings and blings, you're suddenly put in the position of trying to both outmicro blings, and outmicro a ling blob that can take your marines. Even if the zerg loses, more lings are on the way, and the gas cost of the loss is very low. That means a lot of extra gas available for fighting off banshees, hellions, or any other cute variation that the terran tries.
I love this build, but I cant seem to make it work. How do you guys deal with early roach pressure or mass lings/blings off 2 bases? I thought that with all those raxes it would be great vs early pressure but its hard to keep trading armies if he seems to win more cost efficiently.
On November 06 2010 06:14 gerSelect wrote: I love this build, but I cant seem to make it work. How do you guys deal with early roach pressure or mass lings/blings off 2 bases? I thought that with all those raxes it would be great vs early pressure but its hard to keep trading armies if he seems to win more cost efficiently.
Early roach pressure can be defended with a (repaired) bunker.
"mass lings/blings" should never appear. The key point to this strategy is constant aggression, keeping the zerg busy, trading armies if neccessary and in your favor (you shouldn't suicide them).
If there are too many blings on the field for your current army setup and your micro doesn't allow pro marine spreading á la FoxeR, then bolster it up with some support units (hellions, marauders) and harass with Ravens in the meantime.
On November 06 2010 00:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: Been thinking about this amongst other things.
If zerg went something like pure muta/ling without lurkers(banelings in SCII), what was Terran's response? It was like Marine/Firebat/Medic or something. Why not get hellions with blue flame? you have a reactor barracks that you can swap to the factory the instant blue flame is done. That factory then becomes a 400 min/minute mineral sink that basically instantly utilizes most of the money from your second base(no 1000 mineral bubble before ports come online due to needing to get barracks up to spend money). So you can get 5 rax marine production, reactor blue hellions, and then cloaked banshee/raven.
According to this site, unit production, your best combo on 2 base play looks to be 6 Rax, 1 Fact /w reactor (and the two starports). You'd have a small mineral surplus and a larger gas surplus for upgrades.
Unit testing seems to indicate that the relative unit mix would be effective. 20 rines with combat shield and stim lose straight up to 40 lings with speed and gland, but there are only about 6 lings left (no micro). Results are worse on creep. However the addition of blue flame hellions, even without micro, completely turns the battle. 12 rines and 4 hellions will destroy 40 lings. 8-12 of the rines survive and 1 or 2 hellions. Even with only 2 hellions in a group of 12 marines, an equal number of lings are destroyed with about half of the terran force remaining. As the numbers scale up, combat favors the Terrans.
Test it yourself. Given an equal mineral value of marines and lings, even with combat shields and stim, the lings win until the marines hit 3/3. Micro will of course come into play, but that's a matter of player skill. All else being equal, lings are cost effective against marines.
At marine numbers below 20, equal resources of speedlings with gland have a significant advantage against marines with stim and combat shield both on and off creep (with no micro). Once marines get in numbers above 40 they trash lings regardless of creep. Of course this changes if the rines are forced to spread to combat blings.
On November 06 2010 00:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: Been thinking about this amongst other things.
If zerg went something like pure muta/ling without lurkers(banelings in SCII), what was Terran's response? It was like Marine/Firebat/Medic or something. Why not get hellions with blue flame? you have a reactor barracks that you can swap to the factory the instant blue flame is done. That factory then becomes a 400 min/minute mineral sink that basically instantly utilizes most of the money from your second base(no 1000 mineral bubble before ports come online due to needing to get barracks up to spend money). So you can get 5 rax marine production, reactor blue hellions, and then cloaked banshee/raven.
If people thought Thor/Hellion was ridiculous, I think this would be even worse. Zerg would probably just get banelings/infestors but then you can just get more marines and air. 5Rax Marine/4port cloaked banshee or 2port BC is something I have not yet had the pleasure to mess with.
This is where this strategy is going imo. I've been working with just the core of the strat (pure mass upgraded marines with mass expand), and I've found infestors give the most trouble. I tried ghosts as a counter unit but was unimpressed, so I'm testing banshees now (I hate tanks). I think adding blue-flame hellions is a very good idea. They work great with your army unless he's very roach heavy, and they can be used as a harass force at his 3rd while you pressure with your army at his main. I'd use BCs if they didn't take hours to build and weren't awful... :|
Working out the timing of the transitions is very difficult though.
I really hope that those using the unit tester, which I still believe to be an unrealistic mashing of units, are not assuming the lings have adrenal glands...that is hive tech and a pretty absurd scenario. In regards to the unit tester in general, nothing exists in a vacuum. Vikings beat mutas in the unit tester, are they better? Definitely not. We certainly don't know all the circumstances of people's "tests" so they aren't conclusive proof of anything. Shoot and scoot micro will make a difference, backing up to a wall to prevent a surround makes a huge difference, the presence of creep, adding medivacs, autoturrets, banelings, infestors, etc. changes the whole game. The marines have pretty fast upgrades, much faster than Zerg in every replay I've watched so far. There is no vacuum in a real game! I know everyone always wants to break Starcraft down to absolutes like "but banelings counter marines and tanks counter banelings!" but it isn't black and white.
On November 05 2010 14:42 jHERO wrote: lol, why???
instead of ravens you get tanks. wouldnt that be better? since, 1) tank dps > auto turrent and has splash 2) tank costs less 3) tanks demolish banelings lings roaches infestors
the likely hood of pulling off a good HSM is so slim, there are chances that u HSM their muta, their muta fly on top of ur marines, everything dies.. -_-
tanks kill your own units if there is a lot of lings on the field (you will need so much upgrades to be able to kill lings in 1 shot with tank's nerf). Why do people want TANKS ?!! They are only good to defend your position (you don't wanna lose your 3rd PF on a 20+ blings rush) but not to attack with mass marines... Raven can harass, survive, protect your marine ball with a line of turrets, PDD, HSM infestors, deny creep tumors, etc...
But sure, late game when you have like 12+ raven you can go for something else, but having a critical mass of raven is a priority.
In fact, tanks cost MORE because they die.
no you are wrong... tanks with 1 upgrade can 1 shot lings with +3 armor
On November 06 2010 06:14 gerSelect wrote: I love this build, but I cant seem to make it work. How do you guys deal with early roach pressure or mass lings/blings off 2 bases? I thought that with all those raxes it would be great vs early pressure but its hard to keep trading armies if he seems to win more cost efficiently.
Early roach pressure can be defended with a (repaired) bunker.
"mass lings/blings" should never appear. The key point to this strategy is constant aggression, keeping the zerg busy, trading armies if neccessary and in your favor (you shouldn't suicide them).
If there are too many blings on the field for your current army setup and your micro doesn't allow pro marine spreading á la FoxeR, then bolster it up with some support units (hellions, marauders) and harass with Ravens in the meantime.
You can do mass ling/bling in the 2 base econ bling bust. I think you would be fine if you scouted right (mass lings and no third) and get tanks ASAP or float your raxes to your choke. I fear the fast infestor more TBH.
On November 06 2010 06:48 dahorns wrote: Unit testing seems to indicate that the relative unit mix would be effective. 20 rines with combat shield and stim lose straight up to 40 lings with speed and gland, but there are only about 6 lings left (no micro). Results are worse on creep. However the addition of blue flame hellions, even without micro, completely turns the battle. 12 rines and 4 hellions will destroy 40 lings. 8-12 of the rines survive and 1 or 2 hellions. Even with only 2 hellions in a group of 12 marines, an equal number of lings are destroyed with about half of the terran force remaining. As the numbers scale up, combat favors the Terrans.
Yes, if you add in other unit types, the equation changes. I'm saying that lings are cost effective against marines. If the terran player adds in hellions, then the zerg is obviously going to vary their composition as well. I'd image that adding in a few roaches to a group of lings would largely offset hellions. Also, 2 or 3 banelings mixed in with the lings will also have a significant effect on the battle.
At marine numbers below 20, equal resources of speedlings with gland have a significant advantage against marines with stim and combat shield both on and off creep (with no micro). Once marines get in numbers above 40 they trash lings regardless of creep. Of course this changes if the rines are forced to spread to combat blings.
I tested this with 60 marines and 120 lings, off creep, with 2/2 upgrades, combat shield, stim and ling speed, no micro. The lings win. Once the marines get to 3/3 they win, though it's pretty much even once the zerg has adrenal glands. Again, even the addition of two banelings completely shifts the balance. Even the the marines manage to snipe the banelings, the lings are getting free hits during that time.
As long as the zerg can maintain ling parity with marines, the advantage of this build is negated. It does not force the zerg to heavily invest in gas counters, and as a result does not force the zerg to get a fast third for gas income. the zerg can also replenish ling numbers much faster than the terran, even off 6-rax.
Hellions completely turn the tide of battles with Lings. Extremely cost effective at that, 3 hellions will just roast huge lines of Zerglings instantly.
A part of me is hurting because of how bad of a unit the raven is.. Please give us iradiate or at least the shield.. HSM doesn't work as it will kill your marines as well(against ling/bling) and auto turrets are only really used for minor harrassment and slow pushing, you cant get them fast enough. PDD is pretty bad against ling bling muta as well.
On November 06 2010 09:39 Fruscainte wrote: Are you even reading the thread pwadoc?
Hellions completely turn the tide of battles with Lings. Extremely cost effective at that, 3 hellions will just roast huge lines of Zerglings instantly.
I've replied to this repeatedly. We're talking about the cost effectiveness of marines vs. lings. If I mix in a few banelings with my lings, marines are suddenly not at all cost effective against lings. If you mix hellions in with your marines, lings are not at all cost effective. If I mix roaches, ling and blings against marines and hellions, the marines and hellions will get roasted. We're not talking about any of that though. The point is that as long as the zerg maintains ling parity with the terran, the advantage of this build is negated. Of course both players are going to supplement their armies with units that counter marines and lings.
On November 06 2010 09:56 OutlaW- wrote: A part of me is hurting because of how bad of a unit the raven is.. Please give us iradiate or at least the shield.. HSM doesn't work as it will kill your marines as well(against ling/bling) and auto turrets are only really used for minor harrassment and slow pushing, you cant get them fast enough. PDD is pretty bad against ling bling muta as well.
Wouldn't that'd be too easy with 250 mana pool and smart cast...that unit has 60 hp more than raven
On November 06 2010 09:39 Fruscainte wrote: Are you even reading the thread pwadoc?
Hellions completely turn the tide of battles with Lings. Extremely cost effective at that, 3 hellions will just roast huge lines of Zerglings instantly.
I've replied to this repeatedly. We're talking about the cost effectiveness of marines vs. lings. If I mix in a few banelings with my lings, marines are suddenly not at all cost effective against lings. If you mix hellions in with your marines, lings are not at all cost effective. If I mix roaches, ling and blings against marines and hellions, the marines and hellions will get roasted. We're not talking about any of that though. The point is that as long as the zerg maintains ling parity with the terran, the advantage of this build is negated. Of course both players are going to supplement their armies with units that counter marines and lings.
Once zerg start mixing in roaches and blings, the build accomplishes its purpose. Hellions/Rines only use minerals. You force the zerg to counter cheap replaceable mineral units with a gas heavy army. As long as you employ some micro as terran you should be able to trade armies even if the zerg goes heavy speedling.
On November 06 2010 12:44 dahorns wrote: Once zerg start mixing in roaches and blings, the build accomplishes its purpose. Hellions/Rines only use minerals. You force the zerg to counter cheap replaceable mineral units with a gas heavy army. As long as you employ some micro as terran you should be able to trade armies even if the zerg goes heavy speedling.
Hellion marine isn't nearly as cost effective vs. roach/ling/bling as mass marines. The hellions cost twice as much as a marine, but fall very hard to roaches. I'm also fairly sure that reactored hellion production will cut into marine production, though to what extent I'm not sure. 4 hellions is 8 marines, though, so I'd imagine the zerg will tend to have better than mineral parity with the marine numbers. In the test I've done with ~40 marines/4 hellions vs. 80 lings/8 roaches, I end up with 6 roaches, 5 if it goes really badly. That means I'm trading 350 minerals and 50 gas for 600 minerals. I will take that trade any day.
I've also been find that the marine-heavy builds rely on trading armies with the first few pushes. When you mass lings, you actually end up winning overwhelmingly, which means you can deny or at least delay the terran fe. 3 hatches on 2 bases devoted to lings provides for a lot of very aggressive play and gives you map control.
Also keep in mind that the gas limitation for the zerg is a small window. You're trying to stress the zerg's gas supplies as he takes a third. If the zerg can drone up on three hatches without much gas, and then take a third, he can surge forward and supplement the mineral-based early army with a mid-game gas army. A zerg with three bases and 4 hatches is going to have a pretty good income and production advantage over a 2-base terran.
On November 06 2010 09:39 Fruscainte wrote: Are you even reading the thread pwadoc?
Hellions completely turn the tide of battles with Lings. Extremely cost effective at that, 3 hellions will just roast huge lines of Zerglings instantly.
I've replied to this repeatedly. We're talking about the cost effectiveness of marines vs. lings. If I mix in a few banelings with my lings, marines are suddenly not at all cost effective against lings. If you mix hellions in with your marines, lings are not at all cost effective. If I mix roaches, ling and blings against marines and hellions, the marines and hellions will get roasted. We're not talking about any of that though. The point is that as long as the zerg maintains ling parity with the terran, the advantage of this build is negated. Of course both players are going to supplement their armies with units that counter marines and lings.
Once zerg start mixing in roaches and blings, the build accomplishes its purpose. Hellions/Rines only use minerals. You force the zerg to counter cheap replaceable mineral units with a gas heavy army. As long as you employ some micro as terran you should be able to trade armies even if the zerg goes heavy speedling.
You have to react accordingly to whatever Zerg is putting out. This is isn't a build but a style centered around marine/raven. They make up the core of your army. Get hellions if you see a Persian army of lings, get tanks if you see a baneling all-in. Get ghosts/banshee/medivac if you can't deal with infestors with just the marines and ravens. These unit support, the core army is still the same - 5-10 Rax marine and 2 port Raven.
As for pwadoc. If you want to go mass zerglings, go for it. There is a reason people go banelings instead of lines. Send some reps when you do and you will have a better basis than unit tester. Also, this build basically requires Terran to deny zerg bases like the original SK Terran. If zerg gets a third up, you will basically have a hard time. This isn't an all-in either, Terran will expand as well to be successful.
Just in case any amateurs are interested: this strat annihilates in lower plat and below...not that that's surprising I guess. I suck and I have 100% win rate even doing the pure "gimmick" version (not a single attacking unit besides marines and ravens). The games last forever though, lol
baneling/ling to hold off rines stopped getting mutas massed ling/baneling to hold off (the ravens run out of energy quick and cant keep up with constant swarming lings) transitioned into hydra/roach
once i was able to catch all his ravens it was game over
On November 07 2010 03:04 MadisonStreet wrote: Bunch of replays of early bio aggresion that sets up for a solid economy and SK Style terran mid - lategame.
On November 07 2010 03:04 MadisonStreet wrote: Bunch of replays of early bio aggresion that sets up for a solid economy and SK Style terran mid - lategame.
I <3 replays! I will watch when I get home. If you don't mind my asking, about what level are these played at?
Edit: scratch that, I just saw your thread that says you're 2200. I'll watch those replays too, thanks for contributing so much to the community!
Np glad to help. Most of these are rather quick games because the early pressure was enough to dictate the game. I've got alot more macro oriented games with consistant bio drops just need to find them and upload.
I tested this with 60 marines and 120 lings, off creep, with 2/2 upgrades, combat shield, stim and ling speed, no micro. The lings win. Once the marines get to 3/3 they win, though it's pretty much even once the zerg has adrenal glands. Again, even the addition of two banelings completely shifts the balance. Even the the marines manage to snipe the banelings, the lings are getting free hits during that time.
As long as the zerg can maintain ling parity with marines, the advantage of this build is negated. It does not force the zerg to heavily invest in gas counters, and as a result does not force the zerg to get a fast third for gas income. the zerg can also replenish ling numbers much faster than the terran, even off 6-rax.
I know it is a bit off topic at this point, but for the life of me I can't duplicate your results. 60 marines with stim and combat shield will beat even +1 attack speedlings. I even tried to spread the marines out as if they were avoiding blings and they still won. By no micro, did you mean you didn't even stim marines? In fact +1 attack marines beat 1/3 speedlings on creep.
It's much more realistic to test marine numbers ranging from 10-30 against speedlings.
Also, the point is not to ignore banelings all together, but make a smaller ratio of them against marines. I see zerg players make like 20 banelings for no good reason when they only need 4-5.
On November 07 2010 04:42 link0 wrote: It's much more realistic to test marine numbers ranging from 10-30 against speedlings.
Also, the point is not to ignore banelings all together, but make a smaller ratio of them against marines. I see zerg players make like 20 banelings for no good reason when they only need 4-5.
Yeah, I realize that. I was just pointing out that marines are more efficient in higher numbers. 20 marines seems to be about the break even point. My last question was more about my own curiosity because our results were so different.
I tested this with 60 marines and 120 lings, off creep, with 2/2 upgrades, combat shield, stim and ling speed, no micro. The lings win. Once the marines get to 3/3 they win, though it's pretty much even once the zerg has adrenal glands. Again, even the addition of two banelings completely shifts the balance. Even the the marines manage to snipe the banelings, the lings are getting free hits during that time.
As long as the zerg can maintain ling parity with marines, the advantage of this build is negated. It does not force the zerg to heavily invest in gas counters, and as a result does not force the zerg to get a fast third for gas income. the zerg can also replenish ling numbers much faster than the terran, even off 6-rax.
I know it is a bit off topic at this point, but for the life of me I can't duplicate your results. 60 marines with stim and combat shield will beat even +1 attack speedlings. I even tried to spread the marines out as if they were avoiding blings and they still won. By no micro, did you mean you didn't even stim marines? In fact +1 attack marines beat 1/3 speedlings on creep.
the most realistic tests, if you must use the unit tester, would be groups of about 20ish to maybe 30 1/0 marines with cs (+1 finishes at same time as cs, very early), with and without stim but mostly with, against 0/0 speedlings, then maybe try 1/0 and 0/1 speedlings on and off creep. I really think micro makes a huge difference for the marines especially if they can limit the surface area by hugging walls, but ling micro can help some too so the unit tester just isn't conclusive enough.
edit: As far as the difference in results I'm not that surprised. There are so many little factors that can be conciously or subconciously manipulated that it can't be objective. If you WANT the lings to win they'll probably win. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Thanks for the strat, it even works in bronze with my crap macro and micro and I don't feel the threat of containment that happens when I go immobile mech/thor and get snapped by muta harass.
Hey guys, I just started playing with marine/ravine play. Here's me against a ~1800 zerg. My initial thoughts are that micro skill against banelings is paramount for this strategy to work.
You didn't float your CC out for whatever reason. You then stopped being aggressive. Then you were floating at ~1K minerals, you split your army in two instead of throw down turrets. Zerg then got his third and fourth and you didn't try to expand... Your macro just kinda stopped working at ~20 min.
I didn't even watch until the end since the game effectively ended when you decided to turtle and let Z's take the map.
What's your recommendation to fight a decent size harassing force of mutalisks? Seems like this build has a number of options. Rines behind or defensive auto-turrets or missile turret, or keep some ravens back for SM??
I know lots of people probably wouldn't want to post reps of them losing with a strategy but can more people post their losses with MR. I mean preferably losses where Zerg manages to fight you off - not because you have bad macro.
I wouldnt mind posting a few replays of me losing when I get them, however im only a low diamond player so I wont be using the strategy perfectly. I honeslty don't think my micro is good enough for this strategy yet, because when I use it I tend to get rolled over by mass banes :O
On November 06 2010 00:43 Antisocialmunky wrote: If people thought Thor/Hellion was ridiculous, I think this would be even worse. Zerg would probably just get banelings/infestors but then you can just get more marines and air. 5Rax Marine/4port cloaked banshee or 2port BC is something I have not yet had the pleasure to mess with.
The transition to 2 port BC seems pretty smooth, especially if you forgo the raven upgrades. 2 saturated bases supports 4 Rax w/ Reactor and 2 port BC with room for upgrades. If you build the fusion core immediately after your starports you have time to build a Raven (to control creep) and a couple of banshees or medivacs before starting BCs. In practice I'm getting my first 2 cruisers around the 14 minute mark.
While your cruisers are slow, they can allow you to control the middle of the map and provide a nice safety zone for your marines. Keeping your cruisers behind your marine ball keeps them relatively safe and allows your marines to stim back to the cruisers to deal with blings.
Infestors could NP them, but it leaves them pretty easy targets for the marines/banshees. Even if the infestors caught the cruisers alone, NP is pretty worthless when the cruisers can only attack each other. They simply don't do enough damage to each other to matter. Mutalisks melt to battlecruisers, corrupters would be useless against the marine ball leaving hydralisks as probably your biggest threat. Fortunately hydralisks are slow like cruisers so it is relatively easy to escape to the safety of your newest marine ball.
Once you get a sufficient mass of cruisers pushing with them should finish the game and it feels like you get that mass earlier than the critical mass of ravens.
Since zergs so often already have a spire, it's easy for them to make a metric shitload of corruptors to kill the bcs. They actually take a while to die from marine fire, I think they do better than hydras since hydras melt to marines. If the Zerg skipped his spire and stuck with lings and infestors then I can see surprise battlecruisers doing a bunch of damage but they would have to be a surprise. They are also super duper slow and unlike ravens they will kill or be killed - no retreating when things aren't looking so hot. In terms of pure dps for cost, a bunch of autoturrets probably wins as well, plus you don't lose the ravens. Energy is fungible!
On November 08 2010 05:34 Senorcuidado wrote: Since zergs so often already have a spire, it's easy for them to make a metric shitload of corruptors to kill the bcs. They actually take a while to die from marine fire, I think they do better than hydras since hydras melt to marines. If the Zerg skipped his spire and stuck with lings and infestors then I can see surprise battlecruisers doing a bunch of damage but they would have to be a surprise. They are also super duper slow and unlike ravens they will kill or be killed - no retreating when things aren't looking so hot. In terms of pure dps for cost, a bunch of autoturrets probably wins as well, plus you don't lose the ravens. Energy is fungible!
Yeah, probably right. Seems like they might be more useful on smaller maps. The idea wasn't to push with the cruisers, but to keep them pretty far behind the lines so they don't get killed. Keep them near your rallying marines. Push with the rines, pull back to cruisers once blings pop out, push back out. Similar to what you'd do with siege tanks.
A raven is worth 1.5 battlecruisers in terms of gas and build time, and half(rather than a third) the supply cost if you account for build time, which imo you should when looking at the whole picture.
/tangent: It's complicated, but basically with constant production ravens will consume 2 supply per minute while cruisers will consume 4 supply per minute, which is what really matters when building depots to keep up with production. Either way, ravens still have a significant advantage in this department, I just didnt want to overly confuse people with such a lesser known concept. /endtangent
We can balance gas and build time, and be aware of the supply advantage, but what about the mineral difference? 1.5 ravens being equal to a cruiser leaves (400-150) 250 minerals, which means 5 more marines. Marines do about 8 dps each at +1, and much much more with further upgrades and stim pack. We will assume 8 for sinplicity's sake but the real number in the late game should be closer to 15. [(9/.86)X1.5 at +3 with stim, feel free to double check that for me] anyway, 5 marines at 8 dps each is another 40 dps!
Okay, let's err on the low side and say that every raven will only have enough energy for 2 turrets. In reality, with time accruing and the energy upgrade several will have enough for 3 or 4. 2 turrets each is 20 dps, or 30 per equal cost of ravens vs. the 34.78 dps of cruisers. Any raven that has a third turret swings it dramatically in their favor, up to 45 dps per equal cost of the cruiser's 34.78. But they still aren't really equal cost, so let's add the five marines (of course this ruins supply cost comparisons but the numbers are convincing enough) and their very conservative estimate of 40 dps (can range to about 75). Now the ravens plus marines, all with very very lowball estimates of energy and upgrades, are doing 70 dps at the minimum, doubling the battlecruiser's ~35!
Phew. That was a lot of fun. It's not really conclusive, though. BC upgrades scale very very well with their .23 attack speed. Marines die, ravens have varying amounts of energy, supply differentials cannot really balance although that isn't too major. Autoturrets take up space, which can be good or bad. They can be used to protect marines which is huge, but they often can't all be thrown down at once for lack of space or time or apm. hsm and pdd might come into play. The superior mobility of ravens, their detection for killing creep, and the fact that they don't eat into the marine count as much lead me to the conclusion that they are the better choice. Dps comparisons were solely to satisfy my curiosity.
DO NOT use these calculations to make crazy claims that cruisers are terrible or marines are imba, blah blah blah. Nothing exists in a vacuum, there are way too many variables, and I'm telling you right now that these numbers are not proof of ANYTHING that you can apply as absolute rules of Starcraft. I'm also not trying to prove anything at all so don't bother trolling. They are just interesting.
On November 08 2010 05:34 Senorcuidado wrote: Since zergs so often already have a spire, it's easy for them to make a metric shitload of corruptors to kill the bcs. They actually take a while to die from marine fire, I think they do better than hydras since hydras melt to marines. If the Zerg skipped his spire and stuck with lings and infestors then I can see surprise battlecruisers doing a bunch of damage but they would have to be a surprise. They are also super duper slow and unlike ravens they will kill or be killed - no retreating when things aren't looking so hot. In terms of pure dps for cost, a bunch of autoturrets probably wins as well, plus you don't lose the ravens. Energy is fungible!
Yeah, probably right. Seems like they might be more useful on smaller maps. The idea wasn't to push with the cruisers, but to keep them pretty far behind the lines so they don't get killed. Keep them near your rallying marines. Push with the rines, pull back to cruisers once blings pop out, push back out. Similar to what you'd do with siege tanks.
they can be good, especially on a smaller map, but I probably wouldn't use them like tanks. 2 cruisers can actually be a great supplement to a midgame push, then you can go back to making ravens or something. As far as protecting marines from banelings, tanks do a much better job anyway. You can probably just steal a win right there with the first two cruisers if he didn't get a spire, not a bad mixup since the spire is kind of bad against marine raven. Most zergs will want to stick with lings, banelings, infestors, maybe roaches, none of which will help against two cruisers. I'm actually kind of liking this idea...just don't mass them, they're too easy to counter if you give him time.
Personally, I like to force expansion with just mass marine medic, pick up and run from anything that gets too sketchy. I've done it a couple of times vs good zergs (1900ish? if thats good at least) just 2 rax expo, marine pressure just to buy time. Get expo up, and I go like 5-10 rax with reactors, and 2 port with reactors for just pure marine medic. You can force a third with PF's and sim city'ing to block them off completely.
It's worked half decent on bigger open maps like meta, or LT where you can choke your PF's with +2 armor upgrade. Then you gotta drop harass with marines to at least hinder his expo, force more drones, and upgrade upgrade upgrade.
I got maybe 1 recent TvZ where I did such a thing on meta. Couldn't stop expo, so I expo myself and then just mass marines. Banelings have to be split around or picked up and ran from. I'm sure if I mixed in seige tanks, it'd make for quicker games, but when I get a 3rd or 4th base with two PF's, I'm content to stay marines due to my refresh rate.
I only do it vs muta zergs. I'd rather face a roacher than a mutaer any god damn day.
On November 08 2010 07:07 Senorcuidado wrote: they can be good, especially on a smaller map, but I probably wouldn't use them like tanks. 2 cruisers can actually be a great supplement to a midgame push, then you can go back to making ravens or something. As far as protecting marines from banelings, tanks do a much better job anyway. You can probably just steal a win right there with the first two cruisers if he didn't get a spire, not a bad mixup since the spire is kind of bad against marine raven. Most zergs will want to stick with lings, banelings, infestors, maybe roaches, none of which will help against two cruisers. I'm actually kind of liking this idea...just don't mass them, they're too easy to counter if you give him time.
Seems like a nice way to mix in a seldom used Terran unit. Because of the battlecruiser build time, it fits in nicely with this build. It uses slightly more minerals (about the same in gas) per game time as building ravens. You can afford to build them off 2 bases with this build while not affecting your marine production too extensively. It's an easy transition back to raven/banshee/medivac.
Most Zerg still build Mutas for harass, but as long as they don't scout the core you'll have a nice mid game push before they can get Corruptors in the air. Always can bring a few scvs for repair as well. If the Zerg over plays the corruptors you'll punish him pretty badly when you switch back to medivacs/ravens.
On November 08 2010 18:29 MadisonStreet wrote: New replay of lategame bio efficiency vs baneling / infestor / muta
Wow, that is a lot of sexy drop and marine micro. :D Its like watching QXC and the execution was better than Select.
My only issue with all the reps you've given me is they are almost all marine/tank->marine/medivac. That's fine because it illustrates the power of bio pressure and how stupid it gets with 3/3 + heal. However notice how much energy your medivacs build up because the only thing they get to heal is stim. When it comes to enemy damage, the marines instantly melt to bling/roach acid. Granted you had the gold and the game at that point but just notice that for a second with me. Also notice all the extra gas you have and how it has 1:2 ratio with your extra minerals. If you go marine with some tanks into medivacs off the gas from your first base and then add a second starport and third starport(with your third base) with tech lab to start massing ravens, I feel that your army would be more efficient and utilize all the resources from all your bases... The ravens would be a late game transition and will pretty much win the game if you manage to mass them and keep the zerg expo count down.
Drop turrets, HSM snipe, force zerg to waste his money on mutas or hydras that die to marines and tanks respectively. Hydras are also immobile so he wouldn't be able to counter so much.
Plus, he had to keep going mass ground to bust those tank lines. I think KME started doing a similar transition into Tanks + Medivacs into mass raven late game. I mean, what you and most Terrans at the bleeding edge of strategy are doing is fine with just this mid-game composition but once zerg manages to figure out how to not die to marines (play more tactical with their units and positioning), you're going to have to transition to a late game which will probably be Ravens or BCs or pure mech.
Its just some honest feedback. Thanks for being so generous with your reps. :D
On November 08 2010 18:29 MadisonStreet wrote: New replay of lategame bio efficiency vs baneling / infestor / muta
Wow, that is a lot of sexy drop and marine micro. :D Its like watching QXC and the execution was better than Select.
My only issue with all the reps you've given me is they are almost all marine/tank->marine/medivac. That's fine because it illustrates the power of bio pressure and how stupid it gets with 3/3 + heal. However notice how much energy your medivacs build up because the only thing they get to heal is stim. When it comes to enemy damage, the marines instantly melt to bling/roach acid. Granted you had the gold and the game at that point but just notice that for a second with me. Also notice all the extra gas you have and how it has 1:2 ratio with your extra minerals. If you go marine with some tanks into medivacs off the gas from your first base and then add a second starport and third starport(with your third base) with tech lab to start massing ravens, I feel that your army would be more efficient and utilize all the resources from all your bases..
Drop turrets, HSM snipe, force zerg to waste his money on mutas or hydras that die to marines and tanks respectively. Hydras are also immobile so he wouldn't be able to counter so much.
Plus, he had to keep going mass ground to bust those tank lines. I think KME started doing a similar transition into Tanks + Medivacs into mass raven late game.
Its just some honest feedback. Thanks for being so generous with your reps. :D
To be honest I use to play traditional SK terran. I just completely stopped using ravens though HSM is a pos compared to its pre beta nerf. And I feel tanks provide better support for banelings. Your right about the build up of gas and maybe some late tier 3 tech - battlecruisers might be incorporated in some strategy. But for now marines and bio aggresion seem alot safer.
On November 08 2010 18:29 MadisonStreet wrote: New replay of lategame bio efficiency vs baneling / infestor / muta
Wow, that is a lot of sexy drop and marine micro. :D Its like watching QXC and the execution was better than Select.
My only issue with all the reps you've given me is they are almost all marine/tank->marine/medivac. That's fine because it illustrates the power of bio pressure and how stupid it gets with 3/3 + heal. However notice how much energy your medivacs build up because the only thing they get to heal is stim. When it comes to enemy damage, the marines instantly melt to bling/roach acid. Granted you had the gold and the game at that point but just notice that for a second with me. Also notice all the extra gas you have and how it has 1:2 ratio with your extra minerals. If you go marine with some tanks into medivacs off the gas from your first base and then add a second starport and third starport(with your third base) with tech lab to start massing ravens, I feel that your army would be more efficient and utilize all the resources from all your bases..
Drop turrets, HSM snipe, force zerg to waste his money on mutas or hydras that die to marines and tanks respectively. Hydras are also immobile so he wouldn't be able to counter so much.
Plus, he had to keep going mass ground to bust those tank lines. I think KME started doing a similar transition into Tanks + Medivacs into mass raven late game.
Its just some honest feedback. Thanks for being so generous with your reps. :D
To be honest I use to play traditional SK terran. I just completely stopped using ravens though HSM is a pos compared to its pre beta nerf. And I feel tanks provide better support for banelings. Your right about the build up of gas and maybe some late tier 3 tech - battlecruisers might be incorporated in some strategy. But for now marines and bio aggresion seem alot safer.
Lol, nice snipe there. I should probably just draft in Notepad and C&P into here.
I mean, what you and most Terrans at the bleeding edge of strategy are doing is fine with just this mid-game composition but once zerg manages to figure out how to not die to marines (play more tactical with their units and positioning), you're going to have to transition to a late game which will probably be Ravens or BCs or pure mech.
I'm not saying go pure Marine/Raven because that is becoming less feasible but a transition into a mass raven late game along with both tanks and Medivacs is quite feasible. Just because we don't need it yet doesn't mean that we shouldn't screw with the meta and force zerg to fear another unit :D
I mean, I don't think you even used any of the reactor ports you built in the corner.
EDI: Okay, you build 2 medivacs 1 at a time but still.
After reading about this build I tried it in 5 or 6 TvZ I played. I really like this build, lost to an early ling rush and an early roach rush, but those were execution errors on my part.
My initial thoughts are that this build is very good against the average zerg around my level (~1500 diamond). I forgot to save replays, but in all the games the zerg were just overpowered by the sheer number of marines and once I had 10-15 ravens up there was nothing they could do. I even had a game where my opponent made about 20 mutas and then the rest was ling/bling. My marine micro is really bad and I ended up losing MASSIVE amounts of marines to his banelings. The marines I built during the fight were easily able to hold off any pushes once his banelings did their work. When he ran out of gas the game was over as he was unable to hold a 3rd for more than a minute after I scouted it.
Thanks, OP. This build is really fun and is very strong against the typical muta/ling/bling builds. I never encountered infestors but I am going to try to incorporate tanks the next time I play.
On November 07 2010 21:51 Antisocialmunky wrote: I know lots of people probably wouldn't want to post reps of them losing with a strategy but can more people post their losses with MR. I mean preferably losses where Zerg manages to fight you off - not because you have bad macro.
I don't have replays on this computer, but the zerg strategy that seems to repeatedly trouble me (as opposed to me just screwing up) is when the zerg fast expands into zergling/baneling pressure against the natural (on most most maps). My units have to stay home and defend, so marine pushes are delayed. Even narrowing the choke with a bunker and production building hasn't seemed to keep a determined zerg from sometimes being able to penetrate to the natural SCVs. Consistent defense against this kind of aggression seemed to require siege tanks.
The damage from having to rebuild the front line buildings, stuff breaking into the worker line, and gas going towards siege tanks and their tech instead of upgrades and raven stuff means that momentum isn't in my favor. The Zerg has had map control since they've been attacking me, instead of the reverse, so they've been able to expand more easily, the creep has been able to spread a large distance, etc.
Not to mention it puts me in a defensive mindset. This strategy involves a lot of army trading with the marine attacks. It's one thing to accept losing your attack force when by the time it dies, many rax will have generated a replacement force. However, if zerg is waiting right outside your doorstep with their army then there's an immediate counter when your army dies.
I think KME ran into some of the same problems (2 Base Push By Zerg) so he modified the 2 Rax FE to get a fast factory and just a tiny amount of tanks. I just bunker up like mad. Yeah, getting your wall broken down is bad, but he's spending way more banelings to do it than its worth and like I said, a Tank transition is a good idea if you see Zerg sitting on two base doing anything but mass muta. Since most zergs aren't going to take their third and regard it as free anymore, stopping for tanks or medivacs a good idea since Ravens require a snowball.
I'm going to start categorizing new reps that are sent to me by strategy and I have a fair amount to watch :D
I don't know why everyone wants to incorporates tanks into this strategy, that is absolutely not the right way to take this game plan. I really enjoy this strat in part because it DOES NOT involve the fragile and difficult to employ tanks. Tanks need so much careful scouting and micro. The replay above is a perfect example, first tank, does nothing except take minerals/gas when more marines/upgrades in the first push could have made all the difference. The second tank, sits in base the whole game and never fires a shot, no more tanks.
IMO this strategy lives and dies on your marine splitting micro and never ending waves of attack so the zerg can't drone up or catch his breath. I think that a much better evolution of this strategy is to dump that gas into early banshees. Banshees fit into the overall strategy MUCH better.
Lets look at the pros and cons:
Tank pro: one shots banelings splash
con: -slow and immobile - if you don't see the banelings coming you may not be in seige mode, hence removing the entire point of the tanks - cant retreat from most zerg units -fragile -needs extra upgrade -alot of friendly fire issues with speedlings - to properly employ SLOWS YOU DOWN RUINING YOUR GAMEPLAN, if you don't slow down, your tanks will be useless as you'll get hit without seige mode
Banshee pro: harassment - queen sniping especially can give you a HUGE advantage in a strategy that is largely about forcing larva usage - hence an easy win - DO THIS IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GET 2, definitely move to the expansion to get the other queen even over killing drones -> debatable whether this is worth it if they have mutas, probably not, but I could see a game where it was really close that killing the queen might be the turning point where I would suicide a couple banshees - that said good zergs often wont get mutas vs mass marines until you suprise them with the banshees
survivability - can kill zerg ground with much lower possibility of death - easy to retreat and repair
forces mutas or hydras and early overseers - all of which are units you want the zerg to make, much less efficient for killing your marines - don't bother with cloak they will need to make overseer anyway and once you have a few banshees (2-4) you will be switching to ravens anyway - group banshees with ravens for extra survivability
other fits perfectly into your tech/overall gameplan - no extra upgrades/no slowing down can easily be grouped into your raven control group later on zerg will be scared to try to push your base until he has an answer for the banshees all this can be accomplished by adding only 2 banshess versatile - can scout/harass, bring into your marine army for extra firepower/baneling sniping
con: not nearly as effective as tanks at killing banelings -> however that said, you have to keep in mind that tanks may not be that effective in a fast run and gun game either AND over a long game, your banshess live to fight again so they may end up killing as many banelings over time.
On November 09 2010 23:29 statikg wrote: I don't know why everyone wants to incorporates tanks into this strategy, that is absolutely not the right way to take this game plan. I really enjoy this strat in part because it DOES NOT involve the fragile and difficult to employ tanks. Tanks need so much careful scouting and micro. The replay above is a perfect example, first tank, does nothing except take minerals/gas when more marines/upgrades in the first push could have made all the difference. The second tank, sits in base the whole game and never fires a shot, no more tanks.
IMO this strategy lives and dies on your marine splitting micro and never ending waves of attack so the zerg can't drone up or catch his breath. I think that a much better evolution of this strategy is to dump that gas into early banshees. Banshees fit into the overall strategy MUCH better.
Lets look at the pros and cons:
Tank pro: one shots banelings splash
con: -slow and immobile - if you don't see the banelings coming you may not be in seige mode, hence removing the entire point of the tanks - cant retreat from most zerg units -fragile -needs extra upgrade -alot of friendly fire issues with speedlings
Banshee pro: harassment - queen sniping especially can give you a HUGE advantage in a strategy that is largely about forcing larva usage - hence an easy win - DO THIS IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GET 2, definitely move to the expansion to get the other queen even over killing drones
survivability - can kill zerg ground with much lower possibility of death - easy to retreat and repair
forces mutas or hydras - both of which are units you want to fight with marines, also alot less gas available for banelings other fits perfectly into your tech plan\ can easily be grouped into your raven control group later on zerg will be scared to try to push your base until he has an answer for the banshees all this can be accomplished by adding only 2 banshess
con: not nearly as effective as tanks at killing banlings -> however that said, you have to keep in mind that tanks may not be that effective in a fast run and gun game either AND over a long game, your banshess live to fight again so they may end up killing as many banelings over time.
I think a few banshees into ravens would be better than the first two ravens.
You realy want to get a raven first, because with the raven push you clear as much creep as possible, which is essential to beating banelings, maybe then you can make a few banshees, but raven first is much better, you dont want to be spending scans, since you realy want as many minerals as possible
I'm not really sure that, thats the case cilinder, surely you can agree that killing a queen in the early-midgame when employing this larva forcing strategy is a big deal. You might get a few more banelings before your marines all die if you can kill some creep, but I don't think thats a good trade-off for killing a queen, as well you could just delay your first raven push for 1 game minute, or hit at the same time with your marines and banshees, hence reducing the zergs ability to micro his banelings (or sacrifice ALOT of drones while he micros. Anyway I'm going to experiment further with banshees first and I will report back.
Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote: Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners
Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1"
i finally got time to read the entire OP, i saw the post ages ago and read part but it was long and i was tired lol.
I actually used this strat the other day, I went for 2port banshee but didn't notice his overseer sat just out of vision of my main and flew 4 of them right by. By the time the 4th joined the group and i moved in for a big banshee attack he had hydra's and spore crawlers out. I panicked thining he was reading my mind, or worse... hacking... he wasn't obv... i was just a moron...i should have gone straight in with the first two anyways.
Anyways, after taking alot of damage to by banshee's and wondering what to do next.... this thread popped into my head. I already have 2 ports, i just got my natural up to full speed and had alot of income to spend. Went up to 5 rax, constantly pumped rines and ravens until 150 food and crushed him. He had hydra/muta and they literally got 4 kills between them lol.
i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote: Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners
Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1"
Haha yeah I think I can handle that. I'll be on tonight around 7-8pm EST and would definitely be down to experiment. I haven't had much experience playing against this build on the ladder so I feel like this will be very helpful for both of us.
On November 10 2010 01:23 frog HERO wrote: Im a zerg player and I'd love to practice against this strategy. If anyone wants to try it out vs me then please feel free to add me. Character name and code are in my sig and I'm 1700 diamond for a rough evaluation of my skill level.
I'll definitely hit you up. I want to try some different variatons and transitions and I'm woefully low on Zerg practice partners
Hopefully we can come up with some good replays of wins and losses to share as well, as long as you don't mind trolls saying "both players were garbage this strat suxxors!!!1"
Haha yeah I think I can handle that. I'll be on tonight around 7-8pm EST and would definitely be down to experiment. I haven't had much experience playing against this build on the ladder so I feel like this will be very helpful for both of us.
Awesome. I'll be home a little later than you (west coast) but I'll hit you up when I get on. You can add me too.
On November 10 2010 04:08 PeT[uK] wrote: i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
On November 10 2010 04:08 PeT[uK] wrote: i played against this build and its not as scary as you make it seem. It's more of a wtf is he doing, and wow this is annoying. he couldnt really do much because i just defended until he mined out his nat and kept him on that, my composition of units was infestor ling bling, ultra. i had at least 10 infestors so if i caught him with a fungal that was 3-4 dead ravens at least... I was surprised at how many he was able to get in a short amount of time, but still, nothing hard to deal with. although the guy i was playing did not really play aggressively. but just harrassed with ravens
On the times that I fail with this build (and it does happen often enough) it's generally to bad marine micro. I can break that down into the following:
Case A: Bad marine micro where the banelings basically strike for best possible outcome. This is also a compounded by the fact the opponent doesn't DURP DURP BANELINGS and morph all his zerglings, so in the end he has about 8 or so lings that my scvs can't handle yet. Generally if they do morph all their lings and sacrifice their lings, it's basically playing right into the build and forcing larva towards combat units.
Case B: The marine pokes fail due to a poor target selection. Shooting something like an overlord or the hatch/refinery instead of moving into a nice pocket to get nice ball to shoot out of. The same thing happens where the exchange in units just is too poor and results in zerglings being leftover to overwhelm the front, or at the very least stop mining from your natural.
Outside of marine micro, there is one other thing that I find can sometimes throw a spanner in the works if you're not prepared, and that's basically the early roach rush. If I see the roach warren I throw down the bunker after i start the CC and before the 3rd depot, placing it just a little back from the ramp forces the roaches in a choke and allows an scv to repair out of range.
That's pretty much it, I'll agree that baneling/roach/infestor demand a lot from your micro, but I've found so far that if it's at that point, you should be in pretty good shape.
There are lots of bad Zergs and lots of bad Terrans on the ladder so its not surprising. I went undefeated with this for a long time until Zergs figured out that they can't take a free third.
I would want to see some reps where Zerg wins in a game where Terran didn't fail or suck.
Q) Madisonstreet do u always open up with bunker block off of 2 rax or 1 rax if your oppenent is 15 hatch? or do u try any other openers ive recently tried ur bunker blocks and they are quite effective into holding off zerg 15 hatch and also forcing 1 base play which is easily defendable for me after delaying and forcing their play so much. The worst game i had by doing that was a bangling bust which i still ended up winning cause my 2nd was up longer then his.
On November 10 2010 08:59 dbosworld wrote: I've played a LOT of Terrans that have been doing this lately... I have yet to lose to it. My muta/ling infestor eats it up. =/
On November 10 2010 09:23 xVeta wrote: Q) Madisonstreet do u always open up with bunker block off of 2 rax or 1 rax if your oppenent is 15 hatch? or do u try any other openers ive recently tried ur bunker blocks and they are quite effective into holding off zerg 15 hatch and also forcing 1 base play which is easily defendable for me after delaying and forcing their play so much. The worst game i had by doing that was a bangling bust which i still ended up winning cause my 2nd was up longer then his.
Sometimes its not possible. You either fail to take a favorable position or the zerg blocks his own ramp. In which case proceed to bunker into his natural from the outside of the creep ring.
oribital command opening marine factory @ 100 gas @ 400 minerals CC hellion starport tech lab on factory swap at 100% banshee viking add more barracks and ebays
With one hellion you can take out some lings and gain some early map control, followed by one banshee you'll save yourself from ling/roach pressure early on and use the extra money that you would spend on a bunker. With that early of a banshee, you can make the zerg spend too much on getting extra queens and spores thinking cloak or 2port banshee which can be just as effective as early marine pokes.
Instead get a viking and expand. The viking can harass overlords and defend against mutas, so no money needs to be spent on turrets. If the mutas try to engage the viking they'll also be in range of marines. Tossing in the early medivac is for extra energy when you move out and if need be stimming against muta harass.
Although you secure your natural much later than 2rax or KME openings, the early banshee and viking free up some money to be used on getting your barracks and ebays up instead of bunkers and turrets. The first major push to the zerg's 3rd can easily have: 30+ 1/1 marines, medivac, banshee, viking, and raven.
On November 10 2010 22:40 Antisocialmunky wrote: Awesome :D Rep or VOD? We should make a Liquipedia article for this eventually if anyone is up for editing TEX.
Does anyone else keep losing their Natural to Roach/Ling all-ins when zerg beats back the first massive Marine/Raven push but still win the game?
I just won a game on Blistering Sands where I went MR and transitioned into a no base float to gold build.
It was on his live stream, im sure you can get the rep if you ask kindly
(be quick though, he didnt save it, so it is in the 'recent' folder)
But it weren't this strat 100% it was MMM+ Mass Raven :D worked out pretty well.
On November 10 2010 22:10 BKSandland wrote: PainUser just won against mTwDimaga, using a marine, rauder, and raven build. he just massed those auto-turrets, and threw in some medvacs
I saw this match on PainUser's stream early this morning. The stream was so fuzzy that I couldn't make out the opponent-I didn't realize it was Dimaga. Was this a practice match? I had the impression it was.
I really enjoyed PainUser's take on the build. The two spawned on cross positions on Metalopolis. PainUser was a bit less aggressive early and used medivacs mid-game to support his rine/rauder ball.
My favorite technique was his combination of drops on the mineral line of Dimaga with auto-turrets. I'm going to incorporate this technique.
He definitely had mass ravens. I counted at least 12 by the end of the game.
He also used a sweet technique building rax right up against his 3rd (a planetary fortress) to keep ultras from getting a full surround (Dimaga had already taken the planetary out twice with a nasty mix of bling and ultra).
I love this build. I only win about half my games, but it has reinvigorated my desire to play this MU. I've started to incorporate early game tanks to deal with 2 base pressure. The more patient I am in massing ravens before sending them out, the better my results. I've become a fan of the slow turret push.
antisocialmonkey, i have been very sucessful with this build, I do have a question however, off topic but TvP I'm looking for a build to master in the same way you desribed this one, TvP is giving me troublesssss
Heres me losing using the build, let me know what you guys think I did wrong....obviously my marine splitting was awful this game, but other then that what do you think I should have done better?
I usually macro better as well, I got shaken when my expansion got overwhelmed early.
On November 11 2010 09:02 statikg wrote: Heres me losing using the build, let me know what you guys think I did wrong....obviously my marine splitting was awful this game, but other then that what do you think I should have done better?
I usually macro better as well, I got shaken when my expansion got overwhelmed early.
2 Base, Mass Ground Go Marine/Tank either off one or in extreme cases 2 factories. Slow push across the map and set up a contain to force an engagement on your terms. Be wary of a counter. You can also use tanks to take a third to force him to expo or come to you. Then transition into Marine/Medivac/Raven off 3 bases to drop Zerg's bases and get your late game Raven fleet up.
Except only mass ling. I've had issues with this as well. It is better to just not do your 2nd push. He also had great timing for the 5 marine push so he has some experience against Mass Marine openings. Any time to see that many lings with your first push, you should play more defensive. Its good to see our zerg buddies figuring out these things well.
It is also dangerous to go for a 2nd reactor and tech quite that early(8 minutes is way too early for your port). You should get out to 5 rax equivalent first, then tech up. This ate into both your marine and SCV count. Pop down your reactors when you do your big 12 minute push and instantly almost double your production. You also skimped on bunkers. You usually want two bunkers on LT because its really hard to cover everything from either Roach or ling run by.
Looks like you were trying some sort of fast Banshee first strategy too. :-\
Yep I was experimenting with adding in some banshee play, as you can see it didnt work out that well for me . I do typically use more barracks and less tech as per my last replay on this thread.
I feel really strongly that tanks are not the right response to this case where there were no roaches. Perhaps blue flame hellions would be better suited to dealing with this kind of play. I think that I probably should have pulled back my first 5 marine push when he saw me coming from the towers and amalgamated them into my second push.
All those marines dying instantly is why Medivacs are not useful late game. The 6 Rax + Reactor was pretty glorious late game marine spam :D Want to see more RAVENS though. MUST GET MORE RAVENS.
Oh well, at least late game Mass Marine is getting exposure.
Edit: LOL at 2000 Gas.
Edit:
On November 11 2010 08:50 kayoh.amf wrote: antisocialmonkey, i have been very sucessful with this build, I do have a question however, off topic but TvP I'm looking for a build to master in the same way you desribed this one, TvP is giving me troublesssss
On November 11 2010 18:44 MadisonStreet wrote: Pretty epic game
My face when banelings blocked out the sun
Guys, will I die a horrible death if I made like 8-16 pre-ignite hellions when bullshit like this happens to me? They're still the hard counter to lings and blings... aren't they!?
On November 11 2010 18:44 MadisonStreet wrote: Pretty epic game
Observations:
1. Hard game to watch, there was so much back and forth with no sense of control or progress. I was so relieved to see you finally kill the hive, only to realize it didn't matter cause all Z made were lings and blings.
2. Shouldn't there have been some ravens since this is a thread about the Marine/Raven build? I thought I saw you make one but don't remember seeing it get any use. I must have missed it.
3. On a positive note, your marine micro was impressive, at least to my 30 APM skills. I liked all the drops too. Again though I would have liked to see you take ground and hold it. It seems like denying gas would have been a priority to limit bling production. Drop, kill extractors, move on... just a thought.
Let me up a replay that has be doing refugee Terran to illustrate how good late game Ravens are when you have no resources and Zerg barrels down your door:
I played a couple of games vs SenorCuidado last night against this strategy and they were definitely some fun games. I think I was most successful when I delayed mutas and got infestors out. I basically skipped blings until I had a solid muta count and a couple of infestors with energy. If you try and get the blings out before you have infestors and mutas to clean up the ravens/medivacs then you are being very inefficient.
I like this style of play because it really comes down to your macro and your unit control which is totally reminiscent of broodwar ZvT.
I'll upload the replays when I get home today, or If Cuidado wants to he can upload them before then.
On November 10 2010 08:59 dbosworld wrote: I've played a LOT of Terrans that have been doing this lately... I have yet to lose to it. My muta/ling infestor eats it up. =/
replays ?
I don't often save replays, but I'll dig through them and save any future games like this.
On November 11 2010 09:02 statikg wrote: Heres me losing using the build, let me know what you guys think I did wrong....obviously my marine splitting was awful this game, but other then that what do you think I should have done better?
I usually macro better as well, I got shaken when my expansion got overwhelmed early.
You never got stim pack, which I think is the biggest mistake. With stimpack, you can really lower the damage you get from banelings. Also, you only got 1 infantry weapon upgrade. Usually, I get 3/3 by 25 min mark (i go double ebay) which can melt any zerg unit that does not have at least 2 armor upgrade. Also banshees against mutas doesn't work very well, especially when your rines doesnt have stim pack and can't kill mutas fast enough for banshees.
On November 12 2010 01:41 frog HERO wrote: I played a couple of games vs SenorCuidado last night against this strategy and they were definitely some fun games. I think I was most successful when I delayed mutas and got infestors out. I basically skipped blings until I had a solid muta count and a couple of infestors with energy. If you try and get the blings out before you have infestors and mutas to clean up the ravens/medivacs then you are being very inefficient.
I like this style of play because it really comes down to your macro and your unit control which is totally reminiscent of broodwar ZvT.
I'll upload the replays when I get home today, or If Cuidado wants to he can upload them before then.
I'm not sure there's much educational value in those that we played last night lol. I hadn't used the strat in about a week and i was doing some stupid things. I was hoping we could play some good ones to upload tonight, not one sided games but good examples of defense, reaction, micro, etc.
It's probably not worth the trouble to upload games of marines winning at the cs/+1 push or infestors killing one million marines because I couldn't split right. Unless people just want a good chuckle, I guess. I have found that medivacs matter a whole lot though, and hsm can win a game you thought you lost...
Anyway, I think we should get some games that contribute in educational value. There are plenty of standard replays for people to pick through. I want to incorporate some different ideas or transitions
Wonder if anyone's experimented with casting HSM on your marines and suiciding them into the zerg ball. The HSM will blow up on the spot where the marine died. E.g. when you're running from blings, stop 1 marine and cast HSM on it.
I've been playing with Foxer's Marine/Medivac/Tank play and I have to say I love it.
It's quite strong; I've never had such a large success rate. The marine -> tank -> medivac opening seems to adequately deal with anything zerg can throw at you, and allows you to either expand or push safely.
When I think about the marine/raven build and foxer's one though, I'm starting to feel like the ravens are a natural optional followup tot he foxer style. You've got options for harassment, the ability to detect burrowed banelings and kill creep tumors, and also use HSM to push forward or perhaps deal with mutas in the back.
Looking forward to trying it in my play but most of my TvZ's haven't lasted into the late game lately.
Need lurkers to effectively deal with this as zerg. Banelings are good, but they're gone as soon as you use them, so imo they aren't really a counter. A counter unit is still around after it deals with its opponent. See: marines and mutas or colossus and hydralisks. Or immortals and roaches.
You say that but banelings are hit and miss. a single baneling can kill 6-10+ marines or zerglings, and that is certainly cost effective. But if 8 of your banelings get exploded by a single tank shot without killing a single marine, that's not particularly effective.
But I do agree the glory of the foxer style micro is that, with proper micro and no mistakes, you are operating cost-effectively vs banelings so long as you don't get fungaled.
I lost tonight to one of those two-base-stop-at-20-drones-go-all-in-zerglings. I have to say it sucked, I had double his workers, but lost before my tech could kick in. I never lose to that, it's not too hard to hold them off in a choke, but it was on blistering sands so whatcha gonna do...definitely a time when some hellions would have won the game single-handedly. Other than that I'm pwnin noobs and takin names. I love how you feel like you're losing for like 30 minutes and then you realize - wait a minute, he's broke as hell!
I really don't think I've played a game in a while where the zerg's worker production can keep up with mine, and I know because I watch all the replays :D. They have to keep pumping units or die with little room to drone up, as long as you don't do something crazy like lose all your marines to a few banelings. Oh, and hug walls so the lings don't get a surround - especially if you have some medivacs, the cost effectiveness of those marines will sky rocket. I even let a zerg get to five bases today, i thought i was boned, but I had more income from my three bases because I had so many more workers.
I absolutely recommend getting a pair of medivacs first thing when your starports finish, and don't forget banshees if he is sticking to lings, blings, roaches, etc. And don't get too eager with those first five marines, the best I've gotten is an overlord but usually I just lose them and I wish I didn't.
On November 12 2010 18:22 Senorcuidado wrote: I lost tonight to one of those two-base-stop-at-20-drones-go-all-in-zerglings. I have to say it sucked, I had double his workers, but lost before my tech could kick in. I never lose to that, it's not too hard to hold them off in a choke, but it was on blistering sands so whatcha gonna do...definitely a time when some hellions would have won the game single-handedly. Other than that I'm pwnin noobs and takin names. I love how you feel like you're losing for like 30 minutes and then you realize - wait a minute, he's broke as hell!
I really don't think I've played a game in a while where the zerg's worker production can keep up with mine, and I know because I watch all the replays :D. They have to keep pumping units or die with little room to drone up, as long as you don't do something crazy like lose all your marines to a few banelings. Oh, and hug walls so the lings don't get a surround - especially if you have some medivacs, the cost effectiveness of those marines will sky rocket. I even let a zerg get to five bases today, i thought i was boned, but I had more income from my three bases because I had so many more workers.
I absolutely recommend getting a pair of medivacs first thing when your starports finish, and don't forget banshees if he is sticking to lings, blings, roaches, etc. And don't get too eager with those first five marines, the best I've gotten is an overlord but usually I just lose them and I wish I didn't.
1/2 Base all-in is the most overused style I've seen against this in mid-diamond. Sands is the main offender but you can prolly do the same thing on Jungle Basin. Someone actually did this to me on Steppes but Steppes has semi-islands and I had 2 CCs so I ended up coming out ahead -_-'. Zergs are getting the 5 marine poke timing down too so you're likely only going to get 1 Ovie so do that and go back home.
As for positioning, the best positioning that you can do is shove your marines by a ramp so you can make a little triangle of marines.
This might sound real stupid but how do you handle mass banes when you don't have your stim yet? And even if you DO have your stim up already, does splitting the army up really help minimize the damage dealt?
On November 11 2010 12:50 Antisocialmunky wrote: I'm watching Day[9] #214 right now.
All those marines dying instantly is why Medivacs are not useful late game. The 6 Rax + Reactor was pretty glorious late game marine spam :D Want to see more RAVENS though. MUST GET MORE RAVENS.
Oh well, at least late game Mass Marine is getting exposure.
On November 11 2010 08:50 kayoh.amf wrote: antisocialmonkey, i have been very sucessful with this build, I do have a question however, off topic but TvP I'm looking for a build to master in the same way you desribed this one, TvP is giving me troublesssss
Publishing build Tonight/Tomorrow.
The day9 game showed how important upgrades are for zerg. Those 3/3 marines didn't insta melt everything because of this, that was sad :D
On November 12 2010 18:22 Senorcuidado wrote: I lost tonight to one of those two-base-stop-at-20-drones-go-all-in-zerglings. I have to say it sucked, I had double his workers, but lost before my tech could kick in. I never lose to that, it's not too hard to hold them off in a choke, but it was on blistering sands so whatcha gonna do...definitely a time when some hellions would have won the game single-handedly. Other than that I'm pwnin noobs and takin names. I love how you feel like you're losing for like 30 minutes and then you realize - wait a minute, he's broke as hell!
I really don't think I've played a game in a while where the zerg's worker production can keep up with mine, and I know because I watch all the replays :D. They have to keep pumping units or die with little room to drone up, as long as you don't do something crazy like lose all your marines to a few banelings. Oh, and hug walls so the lings don't get a surround - especially if you have some medivacs, the cost effectiveness of those marines will sky rocket. I even let a zerg get to five bases today, i thought i was boned, but I had more income from my three bases because I had so many more workers.
I absolutely recommend getting a pair of medivacs first thing when your starports finish, and don't forget banshees if he is sticking to lings, blings, roaches, etc. And don't get too eager with those first five marines, the best I've gotten is an overlord but usually I just lose them and I wish I didn't.
1/2 Base all-in is the most overused style I've seen against this in mid-diamond. Sands is the main offender but you can prolly do the same thing on Jungle Basin. Someone actually did this to me on Steppes but Steppes has semi-islands and I had 2 CCs so I ended up coming out ahead -_-'. Zergs are getting the 5 marine poke timing down too so you're likely only going to get 1 Ovie so do that and go back home.
As for positioning, the best positioning that you can do is shove your marines by a ramp so you can make a little triangle of marines.
yeah the ramp positioning is pretty sick. I did that to some ultralisks in a long game last night, they had to wrap around the ramp to get to the marines and they melted.
On Blistering Sands I really should have just walled off the regular choke with rax and let him break the rocks, as soon as I knew he was committing so much to it. Really, you have FORTY workers to his twenty, all you need to do is survive. Also, a pair of banshees will be pretty uncontested in that situation too. Hindsight is 20/20 though. It's kind of annoying how hard it is to scout this kind of play, I didn't realize until I saw he had no saturation on his mineral lines.
On November 11 2010 12:50 Antisocialmunky wrote: I'm watching Day[9] #214 right now.
All those marines dying instantly is why Medivacs are not useful late game. The 6 Rax + Reactor was pretty glorious late game marine spam :D Want to see more RAVENS though. MUST GET MORE RAVENS.
Oh well, at least late game Mass Marine is getting exposure.
Edit: LOL at 2000 Gas.
Edit:
On November 11 2010 08:50 kayoh.amf wrote: antisocialmonkey, i have been very sucessful with this build, I do have a question however, off topic but TvP I'm looking for a build to master in the same way you desribed this one, TvP is giving me troublesssss
Publishing build Tonight/Tomorrow.
The day9 game showed how important upgrades are for zerg. Those 3/3 marines didn't insta melt everything because of this, that was sad :D
That is a good observation, I missed that. This was one of the reasons why Foxer's marines could melt through all those zerg units. I think there was at one point during the Shakuras game where 3 marines got surrounded by like 10 lings and none of them died due to medivac heal + 3/3 vs 1/1.
It is safe to say I have lost a bunch of games trying this strat.. That being said the losses usually were due to a few reasons
1. My army on the first 2 pushes is out of position when the roaches hit my expo. 2. My micro sucks and I let all my marines die to baneling/speedling pressure 3. I never reach critical mass of ravens
The games I have one have been very satisfying. Watching a stream of ling/banelings explode before reaching my marines is AWESOME. I will keep this in my build rotation for sure. It has really helped me concentrate on my marine micro.
I don't think people pay enough attention to upgrades. +3 attack is 50% more dps for marines. That incredible. The fact that so many battles are 3/3 vs 1/1 means that zerg is only mitigating 12.5% of that dps (roaches are the exception because they start with 1 armor).
3 armor cuts zergling dps in half if zerg is only at 1/1. Throw in medivacs and your survivability against lings in the mid to late game is astounding. Roaches and hydras do better against armor upgrades but they're bad against bio in general, especially with a few tanks thrown in, and they can't defend spread out expos very well. So lings and banelings and infestors remain the best option but if you can spread out well you can mitigate the effectiveness of banelings and infestors. That leaves the lings that don't do well at these upgrade levels.
I think zergs will fare better when they prioritize upgrades more. Attack upgrades aren't amazing for every unit but armor is essential against marines. In the meantime, I always get +1 armor right after attack, especially because I delay ravens a little more these days. It helps a lot against the mass ling response I usually see. Then I throw down another eng bay and an armory, the sooner I get to 3/3 the better. I usually squeeze building armor in there too but if i had perfect execution I don't know where I could fit it in. Probably a third eng bay for that and hi-sec auto tracking.
I love how you feel like you're losing for like 30 minutes and then you realize - wait a minute, he's broke as hell!
I developed my own all-marine strategy awhile ago, independently of this specific build, and the first game I tried it out was on Shakuras, and I was on the defensive the whole game.
I never even got close to the Zerg's natural or main. But eventually, he just quit, much to my surprise. Watching the replay it was because he had absolutely zero gas by the end of the game. LOL. That's when I knew this was the way to play.
I've included two replays: one of me losing to 2 base roach/bling pressure and one of me winning against 2 base roach/ling pressure. Both replays demonstrate a 1 rax FE build. In the 2nd, on Shakuras, I immediately wall off the natural and expand without a CC-float. I'm going to start doing this regularly on Shakuras and LT because of the natural choke at the natural expansion. Antisocialmonkey asked for strong macro play in replays of failures. I can't guarantee strong macro in these games; but its not utterly awful macro either.
As AntisocialMonkey suggests, the 1-2 base heavy pressure build is the most common response I see to this. My preference would be to go pure rine/raven. I love that combo. But the heavy roach pressure necessitates tanks early on (I suppose marauders would work as well). In the first game, I fail to make 1-2 tanks (which, sieged on the ledge, would have done wonders to deter his roach pressure). I also screw up my wall, leaving too much distance between my rax and bunkers, allowing his roaches to harass the rax outside the range of the bunker. I think this is a good example of my misreading of my opponents intent. I really thought (without evidence) he was going to take a third; I was paranoid that he was taking one of the other starting positions on LT. Consequently, I didn't get tanks and siege up to withstand the storm of roaches.
In the second replay, my opponent is floating 1k minerals mid-game when I finally start to take the upper hand. Had he spent all his resources, his push into my natural might have been more successful. However, I did use a siege tank this time around and by the time he makes his late game push with roaches, blings, and mutas, I have solid rine upgrades, and a tight, tight choke. Once I have 6 or so ravens, I start harassing his expo. When I get 10-12, I make the game-ending push into his desperate third and fourth expos. By that point, he needs the expos as his main and natural are mined-out.
I've had a similar experience to Senorcuidado playing this style, I love being on edge, feeling like I am losing for much of the game. As my Ravens slowly pile up I'm frantically gritting my teeth. Once I hit 8-10 I start thinking, "This just might work." Sure enough, if I'm at full rine production on 3-4 bases when I hit that magic number of Ravens, the Z is hard pressed to fight me off.
Also, as Seniorcuidado has noted, if they 2-base, watch the worker count. I was amazed, in watching the replay of the win on Shakuras: he never manages more than 40 drones. When I have 70 SCVs, he has 35. Even in the loss, my economy is beefy--almost double his worker count. I am always leading in workers. Similarly, watch the army tab and note how consistent his gas investment is in the Shakuras game. Up until mid-game, I am running almost purely on minerals (I've spent gas on technology rather than army). Then that starts to shift. By end game, not only am I spending gas and minerals, but I also have much more invested in economy and in technology than he does. Again, neither he nor I played this as well as we could have, but that's the state of the game around 1500 diamond.
When the Zerg two bases, I think the balance between aggression and defense is hard to gauge. In the Shakuras game, I continue to throw marines toward him. These attacks are not successful in any traditional sense: I don't gain any ground and I don't kill a lot of units. In the future, I might just keep the rinee at home. However, for the time being, I'm advocating pressuring him by sending out the waves of rines, baiting him into continued army production. Ultimately, against a 2-base Zerg, I think we have to provoke them to attack our defenses, and have faith that our wall will hold.
POR: Regularly get placed against 1500-1700 Diamond
I've recently been having a TON of trouble against Zerg. (10% win ratio?... Lose to gold/plat practice partners...) The reason I have a hard time with them is I like bio play over mech play... and then banelings WRECK me. I haven't tested this build against it yet, but without FoxeR style micro, can these marines survive vs speedy banelings?
I like the idea of ravens to constantly be getting rid of creep spread, so that might help. Butif they go roach/bling/sling, it seems like I would just get rolled by a 2 base aggressive build.
P.S. +1 internets to you. VERY good guide, very in depth analysis and supplemental guides to go with it. Good work sir.
On November 13 2010 07:25 skatbone wrote: As AntisocialMonkey suggests, the 1-2 base heavy pressure build is the most common response I see to this. My preference would be to go pure rine/raven. I love that combo. But the heavy roach pressure necessitates tanks early on (I suppose marauders would work as well). In the first game, I fail to make 1-2 tanks (which, sieged on the ledge, would have done wonders to deter his roach pressure). I also screw up my wall, leaving too much distance between my rax and bunkers, allowing his roaches to harass the rax outside the range of the bunker. I think this is a good example of my misreading of my opponents intent. I really thought (without evidence) he was going to take a third; I was paranoid that he was taking one of the other starting positions on LT. Consequently, I didn't get tanks and siege up to withstand the storm of roaches.
I haven't watched the replays yet (I will tonight), but what about building some banshees if he wants to pump roaches? If you want to do marine/raven, you're going to have the two starports with tech labs. Or is the roach pressure coming too early and hard?
A few things I have noticed as I have been practicing with this build
1) Regarding priority of upgrades, i have started to do without armor in the beginning, I would rather get building armor - heres why:
a) Attack upgrades function for all your marines, armor only for the outer layer b) banelings which kill most of my marines, dont really care if I have the armor upgrade c) If I go for armor upgrades I cant really fit building armor upgrade in, which I usually get after +1atk which is really key later on for turrets harasing mineral lines by themselves because that way 3-4 AT can kill many lings, turrets are MUCH better against mutas, and PFs are nearly undefeatable. I have found that taking a gold as your 3rd early on and PFing can really lock the game down for you if you survive that long. I usually only have one eng bay at the start of the game as I go for 2 gas only for a while until my starports are up.
2) Regarding the first 5 marine push, I don't actually make this push all the way to their base anymore, I just push out with the 5 marines, try to kill zerglings at the scout towers or stray OL and then I retreat, this forces them to build lings instead of drones anyway because they think you are coming, but you don't lose your 5 marines to the 10-15lings that are about to pop and your next push will be that much stronger.
3) Make sure you are looking for the 3rd, don't push towards the 2nd, occasionally you can do some damage there but not usually if they are good. If they get on 3 bases early enough your screwed
4)I'm not sure about early medivacs....maybe I might get one for a drop or somthing but I dont find them to be terribly useful for the same reason as early armor.
5) when you really get your economy going on your 3rd base and the game is getting busy, pump out a few hellions and send them somewhere different then your marines, this can be a REALLY effective use of 3-400minerals, you can obviously also do a drop but that costs gas and drop ships are actually slower, but maybe it would be more effective against the queen, not sure how many hellions beat a queen....sometimes I do this with a few ravens rather then keeping them with my marines, as they arent terribly useful support unless there is an opportunity for an hsm, or against mutas.
6) I'm liking stim before combat shields, if you have stim on your first big push and they dont have baneling speed you can do ALOT more damage with good kiting. Also consider this
1 stim marine has 35hp and +50% dps One combat shield marine has +57%hp
If even 20% of your marines are in the middle of a ball or against a wall, you come out ahead with stim (assuming all your marines die in either case, not an unlikely scenario for your first push). This is not even considering kiting, which vs banelings is the main reason I wanted stim in teh first place.
Also Stim is more similar in upgrade time to +1 and I find that I am liking waiting for these upgrades before my first big push unless I KNOW the enemy is getting a late baneling nest.
On November 13 2010 07:25 skatbone wrote: As AntisocialMonkey suggests, the 1-2 base heavy pressure build is the most common response I see to this. My preference would be to go pure rine/raven. I love that combo. But the heavy roach pressure necessitates tanks early on (I suppose marauders would work as well). In the first game, I fail to make 1-2 tanks (which, sieged on the ledge, would have done wonders to deter his roach pressure). I also screw up my wall, leaving too much distance between my rax and bunkers, allowing his roaches to harass the rax outside the range of the bunker. I think this is a good example of my misreading of my opponents intent. I really thought (without evidence) he was going to take a third; I was paranoid that he was taking one of the other starting positions on LT. Consequently, I didn't get tanks and siege up to withstand the storm of roaches.
I haven't watched the replays yet (I will tonight), but what about building some banshees if he wants to pump roaches? If you want to do marine/raven, you're going to have the two starports with tech labs. Or is the roach pressure coming too early and hard?
Smackzilla, yea, I think banshees will work. I haven't mastered efficiency with my use of gas in this build. As you'll see, I'm even hesitant to add reactors to my rax because I want to hold onto the gas for rine and raven upgrades and for the ravens. In other words, I'm trying to limit gas early and I'm not sure how much I'd want to dump into banshees But yes, rather than tanks and siege, I could get banshees--though the initial pressure does come before I drop the starports.
I think that finding a method of holding off the 2-base push while using the least amount of gas for the army allows for the most upgrades and the biggest ball of ravens.
to Skatbone, nice reps. In the LT game, you stimmed your marines at least 4 times before they went out to meet the roaches. Be careful, I used to do a similar thing. Not sure if that would have mattered though in the outcome.
to ASM. I tried doing this build about a week ago without success. I'm sure I didn't have it down at all yet but what I was finding was that I wasn't trading resources really. I would send out my marines and a much smaller force of banelings would wreck my marine ball each time sending me further and further behind. In the original reps, I pretty much saw the marines being a-moved but the resources lost were fairly even. Obviously spreading would help. Is that what I'm missing? I'm referring to early to mid game before raven play really comes in.
Well, ideally reps would be nice. The main way you counter banelings is to pre-spread your marines instead of standing them in a little ball. Even Foxer does that so zerg has to spend effort to split their original ball. I have a feeling that the real issue is macro though unless the zerg goes nuts on 2 base.
2) Regarding the first 5 marine push, I don't actually make this push all the way to their base anymore, I just push out with the 5 marines, try to kill zerglings at the scout towers or stray OL and then I retreat, this forces them to build lings instead of drones anyway because they think you are coming, but you don't lose your 5 marines to the 10-15lings that are about to pop and your next push will be that much stronger.
You'll only be getting an ovie or two now. This is much like BW opennings. Zergs usually build 12 lings when they see you move out or the first ovies die. Though people who don't frequent TL still do the panic lings after they lose 2 ovies and a queen and a couple drones. TL FIGHTING.
Oh yeah, don't forget to save a scan for pushes before Ravens so you can control creep spread. Zergs are getting better at that.
@Skatbone: I'll put you reps up there in the OP. Some pretty nice work with the raven death ball . BTW - Get HSM over Durable. Turrets are nice but HSM snipes baneling herds and oranges roaches. Also. Naturals are freaking death traps. Never make a giant ball of marines in your natural. If you have to rally there, spread them out in little groups preferably in an arc. Vs Banelings, you need retreat room. You won anyway especially after those Roachs suicided in retarded fashion on Shakuras though you would have probably won that earlier. Zergs who stay on 2 base for 20 min are toast.
@Everyone Else: Again thanks for all the feedback. I didn't expect this guide to be this popular and I'm glad all the Terrans in the house are having fun.
@Lurkers: Yeah, Zerg needs some sort of positional unit especially on the small maps. Fighting marines on maps like Shakuras isn't too bad and it produces some of the longer mine out games with this style. I'm almost tempted to tell zergs to do some sort of burrowed Ling/Muta Spinecrawler contain against Terran with ovie creep. Infestors actually comes out a little late to combat mass marine and you have practically no 2nd shot if you screw up the initial fungal (especially if T pokes at zerg with a small group of marines and have your main group spread out ready to pounce). However if you can do that and expo behind a contain, that would be very helpful. I don't play zerg so I'm not sure how the timings work.
You could feasily make 3 spines instead of 12 lings early game to defend and then push out with ovie creep and set up a contain when Terran's 2nd base hasn't kicked in yet (add more spines as well?). T will not be able to push out easily if there are spines.
Then T gets a tank and I dunno what you do? Mass Hydra/Roach/Infestor off 3 base?
I tried this build too the other day without success. The people I versed simply massed banelings very early on and I barely had anything to defend my expo and I felt that every time i tried to apply pressure with marines they'd just melt from the banelings. I'm probably doing something wrong, but should I have went for tanks (a few) to help defend against the mass banelings?
It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote: Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
Heh, that's my type of Zerg. TLO did that on Sands vs someone minus the blings because he was good at Supreme Commander and is therefore awesome. That was SICK Infestor play in game 2. Nicely done. Fission is an ironic nickname.
However I would say to you that player #1 had bad recovery macro, was passive, and had some issues with control/multitask and player #2 went cute stuff into Marine Tank into dead. You need to FE for this to work. Too much cute stuff gets you killed honestly if you are going for this. I really don't know why people like to do the 2 supply wall. It is quite risky to lose both Depots.
For Player #1 if you are reading this: You built almost 20 rax equiv of production..... What the hell. Just unsupply block yourself and start spending your money and keep attacking zorg. Know that when he spends his army ot attack you, he has no army left. -_-' You could have won with your massive unit ball if you just attacked earlier. Yes, securing your 3rd is nice but aggression is the order of the day. I guess that comes with experience. Reducing Zerg's drone pump through constant attacks is very important.
While I say that you can do the macro, a-move. It doesn't work when you actually get into the mid-high diamonds so you really need to control your units somewhat. Clumping like that is really bad especially when Infestors are out. Controlling creep is also quite important.
Oh well, that game was still quite close and even salvageable at certain points.
On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote: Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
I have a few replays of terrible zergs trying to go ling/baneling/infestor and failing. My conclusion is that ling/baneling/infestor is TERRIBLE.
See what I did there?
I don't think I need to go into specifics or defend the build, it's all been addressed in the 17 preceding pages. I hope everyone knows not to cast hsm on a zergling, it's actually not used all that often. Anyway, there are ways to beat any build, and there are players that execute things poorly, neither is conclusive proof of anything being terrible. Forgive my candor, it's just bad form to speak in such absolutes. Let's keep our posts reasonable and constructive.
I have never lost to a zerg that opens roaches using this strategy, they just arent nearly efficient enough to take down stimmed marines, however when they mix them in with baneling speedling I have lost once or twice. I would say the same thing probably goes for hydras....One hydra = 2 banelings...way way less efficient. Post up some replays if your having trouble with this strat guys and we will try to help you out.
On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote: It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this.
This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven.
Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns?
When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo.
So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul.
Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo?
For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map.
And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn.
More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it.
Using marine raven. I was keeping him pretty contained at 2 base for a while and making adjustments for his mass roach. Then he gets pretty fast broodlords and then gg. What to dooo?
SCling, I only watched the first 20minutes because it was pretty clear some issues you could clear up.
First and most importantly, not enough marine production and you teched too fast, off 2 bases you can support about 5reactor rax and 1 techlab rax or 11rax, your choice, I prefer the reactor rax because they leave me with more marines earlier in the game. Don't tech to ravens until you have nearly this much production.
Now in no particular order:
1) You suicided a huge army of marines to kill his 3rd which had like 5 drones working at it, you might have been able to kill his entire army instead. Try not to blow stim early like that before you know what your up against. If you had attacked his roaches then in the next battle where you die to roaches and blings things would also have gone much differently. Somtimes its worth it to snipe a main like that if they are low on money and they really need it, not in this case. You could have killed alot of roaches if u just 1a stimmed and most likely all of them if you used step micro, might be worth learning if you don't know how. After you stim, very rapidly (as fast as stimmed marines fire) move back, press h, move back, press h
2) Get +1 weapons sooner
3) Your worker macro is excellent, however you outpaced yourself and had both bases beyond saturation, take a 3rd sooner if you get to the point where you have so many workers.
Anyway these are side points to the fact that if you had more marine production, you could have attacked more often and with more marines throughout the early midgame and he would not have had the economy required to tech up to broodlords and in fact you most likely have just overwhelmed him.
On November 13 2010 13:41 statikg wrote: SCling, I only watched the first 20minutes because it was pretty clear some issues you could clear up.
First and most importantly, not enough marine production and you teched too fast, off 2 bases you can support about 5reactor rax and 1 techlab rax or 11rax, your choice, I prefer the reactor rax because they leave me with more marines earlier in the game. Don't tech to ravens until you have nearly this much production.
Now in no particular order:
1) You suicided a huge army of marines to kill his 3rd which had like 5 drones working at it, you might have been able to kill his entire army instead. Try not to blow stim early like that before you know what your up against. If you had attacked his roaches then in the next battle where you die to roaches and blings things would also have gone much differently. Somtimes its worth it to snipe a main like that if they are low on money and they really need it, not in this case. You could have killed alot of roaches if u just 1a stimmed and most likely all of them if you used step micro, might be worth learning if you don't know how. After you stim, very rapidly (as fast as stimmed marines fire) move back, press h, move back, press h
2) Get +1 weapons sooner
3) Your worker macro is excellent, however you outpaced yourself and had both bases beyond saturation, take a 3rd sooner if you get to the point where you have so many workers.
Anyway these are side points to the fact that if you had more marine production, you could have attacked more often and with more marines throughout the early midgame and he would not have had the economy required to tech up to broodlords and in fact you most likely have just overwhelmed him.
Teching too fast and suiciding to get... a single hatch that costs 350 is not good. Statikg is pretty much on the spot. I have fun imagining what 100 SCVs doing a base trade would have looked like though. Surprised the Corruptors didn't do that much vs the Ravens though.
On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote: Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
I actually wanted to use one of these replays (the first one) for educational value, I hope the terran doesn't mind
His mechanics were obviously solid throughout the beginning of the game, even though his apm was kind of low for a marine heavy strategy. But there were some serious decision making problems. Zerg was very very aggressive with lings in the beginning. He had ~24 workers to the Terran's ~37ish at some point I believe. Terran was ahead on workers for the first 14 minutes but took a very late third. For some reason he decided to build ELEVEN reactor barracks on two bases! Those stayed idle most of the game. The starports were also rushed, like really really rushed. You need the marine pressure and upgrades going early on, not super fast ravens. Actually, given the game state, banshees would have been a much better choice for the first production cycle. Another point to add here is that at 15 minutes he hasn't started an engineering bay yet and zerg is beating him in upgrades...that is exactly the opposite of what is supposed to happen.
I also want to note that he did not apply any pressure. He fought off zerg's pressure pretty well and zerg even wasted a lot of banelings and lings to sort of bust the supply depots. I guess this put Terran in a very defensive mindset, and he didn't push out to pressure, so zerg got his third completely uncontested and was able to drone hard - this is a gigantic error that is actually common in a lot of the replays I watch.
Around ~16 minutes there is an engagement. Terran is ahead by about 30 food as a result of his early advantage, but loses all his marines. He takes down all the lings and most of the banelings and keeps his ravens, not a super awful trade but it should have been better. Big point here, though, is that there was little micro and NO marine splitting to reduce the effectiveness of the banelings. The infestors got some pretty marginal fungal growths off but a lot of damage could have been avoided. The hsm use was fancy but not essential, and the subsequent auto turrets were a waste of energy, they didn't even have building armor! Terran has another 31 marines back at home sitting at his natural.../facepalm. Follow up and hit his third!
At ~19 minutes zerg has FIVE bases and terran is just landing his third. This is really not okay. Terran is still ahead on workers though, so kudos for that. At ~20 minutes, the marines are all bunched up and get owned by one fungal. They are 0/0 against 2/2...and then the ravens are suicided in to die to infested terrans. The game is pretty much over at this point. Terran loses his third, does a nifty counter attack where his 1/1 marines get overrun by 3/2 lings. He leaves and zerg spends another 12 minutes in the game hanging out and killing buildings, for the chuckles I suppose.
Anyway, there are a lot of good examples of how you can go wrong. You NEED to micro marines and spread them out, especially if there are infestors afoot. You have to be aggressive and deny expansions while taking some for yourself, not being timid on 2 bases. If zerg is that aggressive early on you will have a substantial worker lead, use that to your advantage. And finally, UPGRADE! Zerg played about the way zergs should, with a lot of upgrades and plenty of infestors, but terran responded poorly. I wouldn't say he sucks or anything, his mechanics were obviously pretty decent, maybe he is new at the strategy or doesn't know how to adapt to that build, but that was his game to lose after he held off the early aggression.
On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote: It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this.
This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven.
Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns?
When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo.
So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul.
Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo?
For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map.
And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn.
More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it.
I didn't see this earlier so I will respond. I still harass the expo but I think for the most part, the 20 marine 9 minute poke is pretty much ineffective unless you pop a tank or two or zerg goes fast third. You might as well just mass for a massive 50 marine poke at 11 minutes with your first raven or tank or whatever.
Yes Zergs seem to go nuts when they see that I'm 2 base mass marining. About 1/3 my games turn into Zerg almost killing my expo, atleast killing all my SCVs, and me somehow winning with a massive raven ball off 1.5 bases vs 2.5 bases. The other 1/3rd is me winning against some sort of mutas off 2 base, and the last 3rd is losing to some sort of massive roach/speedling bust mostly on rock maps.
On November 13 2010 09:26 Uranium wrote: Well here's a rep of me absolutely rolling (pun intended cuz banelings ROLL lolol) Marine/Raven. I'm Zerg btw. Honestly this strat is pretty terrible, and I salivate with anticipation of the victory screen every time I see that reactor rax. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/103979-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Here's another one where the guy goes marine/tank/raven and I eat him for breakfast. He blows up half his own ravens with Seeker Missiles but there's no way to stop me from doing this to him, even with good micro; since Zerglings are faster than both Ravens and SMs I can drag the missile to him every time. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96754-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
My army comp is upgraded ling/baneling/infestor in both games.
Dude you didn't roll shit. That stupid terran blew up six of his own damn ravens, and let you fungal growth his entire army over and over. His open against you was horrible as well. Why he dropped those hellions at your back door when they easily could have walked there themselves is beyond me. He didn't use the opens posted in the OP either. The strat' is solid, when executed decently.
On November 13 2010 09:05 Antisocialmunky wrote: It sounds like lots of people are having Baneling issues. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it. It sounds like the 'High Econ Baneling Bust' that both Morrow and someone else mentioned which is basically 2 base pseudo all-in(hard to transition out of). I think most Terran openings that slow tehc to tanks would have issues with that. If that's the case then getting tanks faster may be the only answer because nothing really deals with banelings that well.
Post reps if you have them of this.
This questions strays a bit beyond rine/raven into a more general TvZ issue, but it bears on dealing with bling issues while executing rine/raven.
Do you harass the zerg's natural expo before or as it spawns?
When I drop an ebay or bunker up as the Z's natural expo is taking form, I seem to provoke my opponents. They often make extra lings. While this sacrifices drone production, I find that those early lings are usually used to counter-attack. The early game counterattack is never utterly debilitating, but it often mucks up my attempt to get my FE up and saturated. I also get early bling busted more often when I harass the expo.
So as of late, I have stopped my harass and I just poke with my first group of 6 rines. This allows me to establish my economy and production buildings with relatively little distraction, positioning me for the long haul.
Do you experience a more vicious early attack when you harass the expo?
For those that responded to my post and replays, thanks. I do stim too much--not out of wanting to, so much as out of a mechanical habit. I need to work on this. I also will give HSM more of a chance. I can see it working in moments when I scan that ball of ling/bling/roach sitting in the middle of the map.
And for those losing with this strat, I tend to split games, winning one and losing the next. While I think rine micro is of some importance, I think reading your opponent, being consistently aggressive at the right times, and maintaining your wall while macroing hard make a bigger difference. If you can survive until 3/3 upgrades and 8+ ravens, the tide will usually turn.
More pessimistically, I think some of my wins are attributable to simply surprising my opponent. Perhaps they underestimate rines and ravens. I am hoping that through continued experimentation and dialogue, we can settle on the legitimacy of this strategy against Zerg that are prepared to counter it.
I didn't see this earlier so I will respond. I still harass the expo but I think for the most part, the 20 marine 9 minute poke is pretty much ineffective unless you pop a tank or two or zerg goes fast third. You might as well just mass for a massive 50 marine poke at 11 minutes with your first raven or tank or whatever.
Yes Zergs seem to go nuts when they see that I'm 2 base mass marining. About 1/3 my games turn into Zerg almost killing my expo, atleast killing all my SCVs, and me somehow winning with a massive raven ball off 1.5 bases vs 2.5 bases. The other 1/3rd is me winning against some sort of mutas off 2 base, and the last 3rd is losing to some sort of massive roach/speedling bust mostly on rock maps.
Did we see any Foxer Marine micro? I haven't watched them yet but the LR thread seems to indicate he did not make enough marines.
Very minor spoiler (unless you don't know the winner, in that case it's a major spoiler...but you can read without spoiling the games) + Show Spoiler +
I can't even talk about GSL, this dispressed me all day, i'm so sad. No real good marine micro, because he had no occasion to display some because of how the game were played.
I added one of Shankapotamus's plat reps which illustrate some nice micro.
Also, as a general request, can those who use this often share their turret placement/marine micro tricks. Screen caps with a brief description would be preferable.
IE:
Turret Behind the Minerals
Turrets behind the minerals is one of the most basic uses for Raven harass. Positioning turrets like this makes them extremely hard to attack with melee units effectively and the long lifespan of each turret denies mining for 3/4 minutes. If left alone long enough both geysers and hatches will die to turret fire.
This above screenshot is my common turret use by far. I usually group them a little bit tighter though to make them even more difficult to kill for lings. (ppl rarely waste banes on the turrets). The only other places I use turrets are randomly around the map to try to block banes from my marines, panic turrets to defend from mutas and once I have a huge ball I just throw them down all over the zerg base to finish the game.
In regards to blocking banes, I find this is less efficient use of my apm then just splitting my marines as often as possible except maybe to block a ramp.
On November 14 2010 23:38 statikg wrote: This above screenshot is my common turret use by far. I usually group them a little bit tighter though to make them even more difficult to kill for lings. (ppl rarely waste banes on the turrets). The only other places I use turrets are randomly around the map to try to block banes from my marines, panic turrets to defend from mutas and once I have a huge ball I just throw them down all over the zerg base to finish the game.
In regards to blocking banes, I find this is less efficient use of my apm then just splitting my marines as often as possible except maybe to block a ramp.
Actually, using them to ramp block is great. The best way to deal with banes turret wise is to throw turrets down in zerg's likely routes of reinforcing when you attack an expo so they have to run through a turret line(Can't a-move) or go around.
Actually all the best baneling counters(like spread out your marines and stuff) occur before battles with zerg armies so .
Patrol spread does a help a little bit, but it doesn't work when the enemy is in target acquisition range. So you need to do it a before you engage, which can be cumbersom. It's also inconsistent, if you're on patrol and the enemy engages you, the patrollers will group up again slightly unless you hold position after they spread.
Also sense you have to do it before you engage, your spread will be clumped when you go to attack move a target area. It's best on defense when your just holding ground for a moment. And quite effective at that.
I just noticed while watching the replays, that both turret range and building armor upgrades applies to Raven's AutoTurrets, would those both be worth getting? Turrets are usefull to soak damage so +2 armor could be quite powerful
On November 15 2010 05:22 BobMcJohnson wrote: I just noticed while watching the replays, that both turret range and building armor upgrades applies to Raven's AutoTurrets, would those both be worth getting? Turrets are usefull to soak damage so +2 armor could be quite powerful
Definitely worth getting building armor, and most people usually do. +2 armor also makes p-forts, bunkers, and missile turrets pretty robust too. Hi-sec auto tracking is nice too, although most people don't get it - probably hecause it ties up the eng bay.
I noticed in kme's most recent replay pack that he wasn't getting building armor. If it was anyone else I would assume they forgot or something, but kme was leaning more on tanks in those games and less on auto turrets to cover the marines so that's probably the reason. He may care to elaborate further.
By the way I wanted to take a minute to applaud the exquisite marine micro displayed in kme's third replay pack. It's calm and elegant, obviously resulting from a lot of practice. He just smoothly cuts slices and positions them so that banelings do very little damage. There is no sense of that frantic panic you usually see when banelings are chasing marines. It was a pleasure to watch, and here's the surprise: his apm is only around 100-120 on average. Stay calm and split intelligently and you don't need lightning fingers.
Some interesting stuff: The one from HammerTime was pretty good. He was probably the most interesting zerg I've seen so far. Bling drops, building nothing but sling/blings and expoing. Its too bad that zerg get so larva blocked if they stay on lings because while HammerTime had the right idea, he couldn't actually build drones. I think getting a third hatch in the main is something that has to be done if someone is wanting to do an expo style that emphasizes lings. You can throw up quite a few hatches with extra minerals but they'll probably die before they produce any large amount of drones unless its in your base.
On November 15 2010 08:45 MrCon wrote: Kawairice just won a tourney http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=166984 using mostly a marine strategy against Z, with a great split micro. I hope they will publish replays/vods, it was interresting. (he played a TvZ final)
Yea, he pulled off the Foxer style rine/medivac strategy very well. I enjoyed watching his marine micro in these games.
Wow, good for kawaii. I haven't seen him play much since beta. It's funny that pros keep doing well with mass marines and we still get people popping in here to say "mass marine sucks, hard countered by x and y"
I'd love to see the replays once they're released.
I just lost to this, both armies were maxed (my infestor/ling vs his marine/raven), the problem was my infestors couldnt kill anything nearly quick enough, so I would fungal around the same time he cast HSM on all my infestors, I would spawn infested terrans as quickly as possible (they're way too difficult to cast imo, gotta hit T every time >.>) but all my infestors would die, the ravens would take a couple casualties but overall would leave unscathed, and this just happened over and over until I ran out of moneys.
So, my question is, what's the best unit comp to deal with this (since really, at 200/200, unit comp is what matters along with ups)? I feel like corruptors are the only real option, but if I go for them my ground army will just lose and cry and they might die anyways to HSM.
Once there is a ball of ravens 5+ you probably already lost, as soon as you realize this is happening you need to do a couple things
1) start spreading creep 2) get baneling speed 3) get some mutas for harass and for picking off ravens 4) start getting armor upgrades 5) make toooons of lings, drop an extra hatch in base if u need larva
I'm not a particularly great player (~1800 Diamond), but I love this build. However, I kept running into more and more players who went 2 base Baneling/Speedling rush and wasn't able to defend it without taking massive damage, so I started doing a more methodical Marine/Medivac/Tank push. Instead of splitting Marines and leaving them to die to Banelings, I try to set up some Tanks behind my Marines, do a little damage, and run when the Banelings come. If they chase me, they get shot down by the Tanks, and if they don't, I do free damage. However, this can leave your Tanks vulnerable to Mutalisks, so I like to build some Turrets along the way. I just didn't like the idea of sacrificing Marines to Banelings constantly when I could pick them off with Tanks instead.
Here's a replay to show the strategy in action. Again, I'm nowhere near a pro, so take it for what it's worth. Although I did make mistakes, eventually I won the war of attrition. Thanks to the OP for sharing the build!
I just saw Drewbie start adding Ravens in the Undeniably Gamer Tournament finals. His style wasn't quite the same, since he made heavy use of medivacs, banshee and Thors while on his first two bases, and only added the Ravens after taking his third.
I only have one replay in which I went battlecruisers against Zerg. He responded by massing hydras instead. >_>
I was wondering if adapting the marine/raven build into marine/battlecruiser build might be more viable with a more streamlined build.
The goal is to get Zerg to swap ground army for something that can fire back against the battlecruisers. So long as you can hold out against their early and attacks and keep the aggression on them you can save up for a battlecruiser. Then their zergling, baneling, roach armies are in trouble. Mutas are very costly in terms of gas and that will further slow their ground army and weaken them if they choose to mass a lot more mutas to deal with the battlecruisers.
Hydras are one way also but quite honestly, I think hydras are easier to deal with than banelings and zerglings. And if they do that you can cut battlecruisers again to mass grab more ravens and save those minerals for more marines or whatnot.
Forcing them to again keep watching your tech swap. Ravens also do very well against hydras. Being slower in general than mutas they are under risk from the missile and for some reason, autoturrets seem to do slightly better against hydras than roaches.
Nice man. Marine Tank is popular for that reason and seems to be the best transition into MR at the moment though you don't transition into ravens and just go mass full energy medivac.
Tangentally, for those who don't want to wait until I finish the diagrams with MSPaint: There are some good little tricks for Marine Tank like sieging your tanks tanks far back and poking with some marines while keeping the majority of your marines spread out around the tanks. Then retreat into the tank fire with your forward group of marines. You actually don't really want most of your tanks in range of buildings so they can get their alpha strike against units.
On November 15 2010 13:41 uAir wrote: I only have one replay in which I went battlecruisers against Zerg. He responded by massing hydras instead. >_>
I was wondering if adapting the marine/raven build into marine/battlecruiser build might be more viable with a more streamlined build.
The goal is to get Zerg to swap ground army for something that can fire back against the battlecruisers. So long as you can hold out against their early and attacks and keep the aggression on them you can save up for a battlecruiser. Then their zergling, baneling, roach armies are in trouble. Mutas are very costly in terms of gas and that will further slow their ground army and weaken them if they choose to mass a lot more mutas to deal with the battlecruisers.
Hydras are one way also but quite honestly, I think hydras are easier to deal with than banelings and zerglings. And if they do that you can cut battlecruisers again to mass grab more ravens and save those minerals for more marines or whatnot.
Forcing them to again keep watching your tech swap. Ravens also do very well against hydras. Being slower in general than mutas they are under risk from the missile and for some reason, autoturrets seem to do slightly better against hydras than roaches.
What do you guys think?
BCs are slow as hell, can't control territory and don't have burst damage. Corruptors demolish them because the BC's armored status, Corruptors get extra damage vs armored, and Corruptors have high armor.
I mean, what you are saying sounds like you want to do the BC rush(search that thread).
On November 15 2010 13:45 Antisocialmunky wrote: Nice man. Marine Tank is popular for that reason and seems to be the best transition into MR at the moment though you don't transition into ravens and just go mass full energy medivac.
Tangentally, for those who don't want to wait until I finish the diagrams with MSPaint: There are some good little tricks for Marine Tank like sieging your tanks tanks far back and poking with some marines while keeping the majority of your marines spread out around the tanks. Then retreat into the tank fire with your forward group of marines. You actually don't really want most of your tanks in range of buildings so they can get their alpha strike against units.
On November 15 2010 13:41 uAir wrote: I only have one replay in which I went battlecruisers against Zerg. He responded by massing hydras instead. >_>
I was wondering if adapting the marine/raven build into marine/battlecruiser build might be more viable with a more streamlined build.
The goal is to get Zerg to swap ground army for something that can fire back against the battlecruisers. So long as you can hold out against their early and attacks and keep the aggression on them you can save up for a battlecruiser. Then their zergling, baneling, roach armies are in trouble. Mutas are very costly in terms of gas and that will further slow their ground army and weaken them if they choose to mass a lot more mutas to deal with the battlecruisers.
Hydras are one way also but quite honestly, I think hydras are easier to deal with than banelings and zerglings. And if they do that you can cut battlecruisers again to mass grab more ravens and save those minerals for more marines or whatnot.
Forcing them to again keep watching your tech swap. Ravens also do very well against hydras. Being slower in general than mutas they are under risk from the missile and for some reason, autoturrets seem to do slightly better against hydras than roaches.
What do you guys think?
BCs are slow as hell, can't control territory and don't have burst damage. Corruptors demolish them because the BC's armored status, Corruptors get extra damage vs armored, and Corruptors have high armor.
I mean, what you are saying sounds like you want to do the BC rush(search that thread).
On November 15 2010 12:14 statikg wrote: Once there is a ball of ravens 5+ you probably already lost, as soon as you realize this is happening you need to do a couple things
1) start spreading creep 2) get baneling speed 3) get some mutas for harass and for picking off ravens 4) start getting armor upgrades 5) make toooons of lings, drop an extra hatch in base if u need larva
5 things that any decent zerg going muta/ling/bling is doing anyhow
Just tried out this build opening with KME's FE. I have to say that it worked extremely well for me.
During the match, the zerg tried to counter my ravens with corruptors but sadly he only sent the corruptors in by themselves allowing my marines to kill them. I did lose a couple ravens though as I did not expect him to respond that way.
I am 1200 diamond level so my macro and timings are still off as this is the first time I tried this.
I do like to ask what upgrades to people usually get first? HSM or Raven energy?
Finally bumped into the Marine Raven strat on the US server I am guessing this was a low diamond Terran. I normally play on SEA, 1400 diamond.
Despite T getting to 3/3 marines, denying my third twice and getting his third earlier. I managed to beat it using my usual anti-T build of ling/bling/infestor into ultra with 3/3 upgrades (and a dash of mutas at the end when he took the island)
My sense is that marine/raven requires a decent amount of skill to pull off. The T must spend his full attention microing the marines properly, without letting his macro suffer.
I prefer to get raven energy first, since HSM won't have much use until you start to have your raven ball, while autoturrets are useful from the beginning.
I've had problems with a zerg player that went mutas though : he never fought me directly with them, but instead waited for the fight to finish and the pursued my ravens or prevented them from getting too deep to harass his expos. Since he always flew my marines he had quite an amount at the end, and losing my raven fleet cost me the game (I think). I guess this strat would normally have left him without enough ground forces to properly repel my marine assaults, and that it was my fault for not putting enough pressure on him that allowed him to get a ground army and then some mutas. When it happens though, how do you deal with it ? More agression to force the mutas to come to the fight and get demolished by upgraded marines ? SM to make them flee ? Put bunker and/or turrets at the rally point to protect the fleet once marines are dead ? Try to get a SM off while he's not paying attention to them ?
(I'm not putting the replay since I realized I'm not nearly aggressive enough, my macro needs work — I'm just not used to producing 15 units at a time yet — and those things would make for too specific advice regarding the game played.)
On November 15 2010 09:46 Senorcuidado wrote: Wow, good for kawaii. I haven't seen him play much since beta. It's funny that pros keep doing well with mass marines and we still get people popping in here to say "mass marine sucks, hard countered by x and y"
I'd love to see the replays once they're released.
Alaric, once the zerg has a big muta fleet you are in a tough spot. Early pressure is the key to avoiding this problem. Keep your ravens with your marines and try to get a good HSM off on a clump of banelings. Hopefully this will force the zerg to confront you with his mutas and you can try for an HSM or just use turrets and PDD. If the mutas catch your ravens without marines you pretty much have to use HSM to make him run or if you dont have that you can drop a PDD retreat, PDD retreat and hopefully your next group of marines is already on the way or not to far!
I tried this build in the ladder today for the first time, and I must say that I lost 0:5 or something.. :/ Nevertheless I will continue to use the build as I think that it is fun to play, although AUTO-TURRETS SHOULD PUSH UNITS AWAY LIKE FORCEFIELDS!
Muta has not been a problem at all with HSM, Infestors were not even needed by the zerg as banelings killed most of my marines every time. The first poke with about 20 marines is vulnerable, many zergs already have enough zerglings with speed to kill all of them and then kill you. And somehow I am not able to make them hard pump units without killing me, so that the wasting larvae part of this strategy is utilized.
Also, I am not experienced at all with this build. But I think it is much harder to pull off then using siege tanks for example. The marines have to be control excellent for you to stand a chance. If the ravens die, you die. It seems as soon as ultras are out you still die to them nevertheless with this strat.
I really would like to see more replays than does provided, from platinum players preferably. Maybe I will post some of mine too, although I could only secure a third in one of them... T_T (still lost to ultras)
When are you making your first major attack now ASM? I am playing almost exclusively this strategy these days and I have to say I am winning at best 50% now at 2100, most of the oppenents I beat are lower then me. I have had more luck with waiting until stim and +1 finishes at which point I usually have about 30. Stim kiting is VERY key, probably more effective then marine splitting IMO. I am also having trouble against fast speed roaches supplemented by banelings who just run away when I stim up and then rinse and repeat, if this starts happening before my starports are up it can be a big issue.
Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg.
One of the major issues with mass roach is that Turrets DO NOT WORK which means the Ravens are almost useless when they pop. You have to get HSM so that gives you a massive hole with which to deal with in your timings. You need splash and tanks are probably the best option while Banshees would work for harassing.
On November 16 2010 11:27 Antisocialmunky wrote: Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg.
Couldn't i just star going Marine Maruader? I have all the upgrades and a ton of raxes. If i can split marines i pretty sure i can split Maruaders. Plus it take a ton of blings to kill maruaders.
This way a) you won't eat your gas b) You'll stay mobile
I also figured that if they start going hydra roach to focus on Marauder Hellion with a few marines just in case of Mutas. Hellions don't take away mobility.
On November 16 2010 11:27 Antisocialmunky wrote: Against roach/baneling, you're going to have to stop for tanks and play the marine/tank game either out of one or two factories depending on how far Zerg commits. You just have to have tanks because roaches and banelings are so front loaded that marines DPS drops very quickly. Additionally without the threat of muta, you can go for banshees, and Zerg can't easily snipe all your tanks.
I usually go for stim, +1 with tanks though I think you can get CS as well.
Can you post some reps? I am curious to see how good zergs are taking care of business. I've seen bling roach executed poorly a lot so I'm curious what it looks like when its done by a decent zerg.
Couldn't i just star going Marine Maruader? I have all the upgrades and a ton of raxes. If i can split marines i pretty sure i can split Maruaders. Plus it take a ton of blings to kill maruaders.
This way a) you won't eat your gas b) You'll stay mobile
I also figured that if they start going hydra roach to focus on Marauder Hellion with a few marines just in case of Mutas. Hellions don't take away mobility.
It flows pretty nicely
This is feasible but it depends on the timing but the burst damage is huge even if marauders are tanking it. Additionally the 20/30 marine 'scary' poke comes when you are weak compared to zerg (zerg's 2nd expo kicks in much faster unless he takes a third) so getting marauders may nto change anything because its an issue of the T FE.
I also rather have tanks over marauders so if you're having problems later, then I'd suggest tanks. If you are having issues earlier, get marauders. Maybe you could get both. You have 4 gas to play with.
My exams just finished so i finally have time to play around with new builds and this build is just, wonderful to be honest.
I've been trying the 4 rax straight to Ravens strategy but that didn't work too well for me as I have trouble with quick banelings most of the time; so decided to go delay ravens and go for 2-3 siege tanks to back up my marine ball for a timing push.
Here's a rep of a game that i have just played;
The reason why I'm posting this up is to inquire on a few things;
1) What made my early aggresion so successful? Was it because of my early stim or was it because he simply did not have enough zerglings out? 2) How viable is getting Stim first instead of Shields if you're going to be more aggresive, like in this game? 3) What could the Zerg do to stop the push? 4) What are you thoughts on the use of Siege Tanks with the cost of delaying Ravens?
I really want this build to work for me and these are a few questions on top of my head at the moment; I would really appreciate it if you guys would spend a little of your time watching the replay to give suggestions and answer my questions. Any criticism on my play will be well received =D
FYI this game is of me (1500 T) against a 1600 Z, if you guys are wondering.
I haven't seen the replay because it's 1am and i have class in the morning, but to try to answer some of your questions...
2) I think the reason shields first work is the timing lines up nicely with +1 weps. In the Kme aggression build,the 2nd rax + techlab and ebay are thrown down around the same time, so +1 can be started ~30 seconds before combat shield, and finish at more or less the same time. With stim, you'd have to wait the 30 seconds (110 for CS, 140 for stim, i think) before you could push out with an upgrade advantage, which is pretty big.
4) tanks provide fantastic support fire for dealing with units that rock marines hard, like blings, speedlings and infestors, and are obviously more effective earlier on than a small number of ravens due to earlier tech and lower gas cost. Though one of the big advantages of teching straight to ravens is the ability to deny creep tumors sooner, making the serious marine counters much easier to deal with later on. It's also worth mentioning that going marine/tank cuts into mobility a great deal, due to having to tank inch so you don't get bumrushed unsieged.
Though take what I say with a grain of salt, because i'm a gold-level scrub TL lurker.
On November 17 2010 18:01 Opalcard wrote: My exams just finished so i finally have time to play around with new builds and this build is just, wonderful to be honest.
I've been trying the 4 rax straight to Ravens strategy but that didn't work too well for me as I have trouble with quick banelings most of the time; so decided to go delay ravens and go for 2-3 siege tanks to back up my marine ball for a timing push.
Here's a rep of a game that i have just played;
The reason why I'm posting this up is to inquire on a few things;
1) What made my early aggresion so successful? Was it because of my early stim or was it because he simply did not have enough zerglings out? 2) How viable is getting Stim first instead of Shields if you're going to be more aggresive, like in this game? 3) What could the Zerg do to stop the push? 4) What are you thoughts on the use of Siege Tanks with the cost of delaying Ravens?
I really want this build to work for me and these are a few questions on top of my head at the moment; I would really appreciate it if you guys would spend a little of your time watching the replay to give suggestions and answer my questions. Any criticism on my play will be well received =D
FYI this game is of me (1500 T) against a 1600 Z, if you guys are wondering.
1) He didn't expect the 20 marine push. A lot of zergs that haven't faced this will skimp on army if they haven't played a marine opening before. 2) At this juncture, unless you see zerg doing something crazy with mass speedling only, you're going to want stim first. 3) You need faster banelings to at least defend that push. Throwing down spines early helps. Usually if Zerg sees the reactor rax or a 2 rax wall, they'll get the hint that T is going for an early timing push. 4) The Ravens are mid-late game. You need to be able to get to them. I think I address tanks vs other stuff in the FAQ.
The map was also Delta Quadrant which favors the aggressor if both players FE. Likewise, mutas don't work so well on it (Terran can just run across the map). To combat this, Zerg needs to get a big ground army and deny your expo which is actually quite annoying on DelQuad. You can do a PF expo to kinda stop this.
Have fun . Also, don't forget to split your marine ball up into little clumps whenever you stop them.
I had some replays I wanted to share but my video card died yesterday so my computer is not functional until next week
I am getting beat by very aggressive zerglings delaying my fe, which is why I'm going back to the reactor rax expand for the earlier expo. I also played a few practice games against a damn good Zerg, and he expanded like crazy while still being able to hold off the timing attack. He has obviously played against this strat lots of times, and he was the only one that could keep up in Econ and still defend properly. That said, if I had opened banshees he would have lost immediately so maybe it's just a risk he could afford to take since he knew what I was doing.
On ladder ~1900 I'm still owning zergs that are caught off guard, but i'm finding tanks more necessary. You HAVE to threaten their third base or take your own very fast or you'll get run over. That's the hard part so far on big maps with spread out expansions, especially if you're tank crawling.
If the replays are still there when I get my computer fixed I'll try to post them.
I'm having similar results with a number of Zerg capable of holding off attacks while mass expanding. This tends to happen when we spawn in cross positions. I also find that my wins often come against those who are surprised by the strategy. I want to be able to tweak this so that I can beat people who are consciously countering it.
ASM, Here's my concern: with so many Zerg 2-basing against this strategy, I find that often, they will mass an army while doing this, but they will not be aggressive. Once they've saturated 2 bases and have a standing army (various compositions-often roach/ling/bling; often lots of roach/a bit of bling/a bit of ling/a bunch of muta), they take the rest of the map.
More than anything, I've having trouble gauging when to be aggressive. With 2 basers, I get the need to turtle. But if they 2 base and then start taking the map, I am finding that I am forced to move out and by that time, they not only have an army, but they have enough larva to recreate a higher tier army (often ultras-and these ultras arrive before I have 3/3 and faster than I can reproduce a sufficient rine army. The issue is partially with my macro and sometimes poor scouting).
I know part of my problem is hesitance in taking my third.
The solution I'm working on is delaying the ravens even more to get a host of medivacs (as a number of others have suggested in this thread). Then I take a small portion of my army and engage with his as a feint as I drop in his main.
I am also starting to take the utility of banshees more seriously (force him to counter and not just sit on his roach/ling/bling).
Awkwardly enough, the build starts to feel a lot less like rine/raven when spending gas on tanks, medis, and banshees. Every once in awhile, I win a game where I never get the chance to bring my ravens into the fight.
@Senorcuidado There are a few things that you can do to deal with this depending on the map. On maps with narrow chokes, you can obviously wall the natural expo. On Delta Quad, build a Pfort. Looking forward to the reps, descriptions are vague.
@skatbone I agree zergs that sit on 2 base is hard to deal with. One of the things you can do, is produce a round of medivacs before Ravens and octo-drop to get hellions while pushing and retreating. Terran almost always has an advantage when it comes to harass. If you are tank heavy, you can siege expand to a third and force the zerg to expo or stop you and then get up even more barracks and ports.
There's a reason why people go marine/tank ->marine/medivac. You need mobility to deal with a third like you've experienced. Ravens can function similarly to medivacs and tanks at the same time but you require a certain amount of ravens and enough time to do this. I think I address some of this stuff in the FAQ. Its becoming less and less common that you can actually go straight marine/raven other than against mass muta + ground because it comes out somewhat slowly compared to tanks that instantly can start dropping siege shots and medivacs that instantly give you high mobility.
Actually usually when I'm in a stalemate position where I can't attack zerg and win but I know zerg can't attack me and win is that I expo. I know it is weird to say but it basically forces the opponent to do SOMETHING even if it is to take a third (which makes zerg more droppable).
Also, don't be afraid to try and thin out the zerg hordes. Zerg wants to max out food so slow pushes and contains are quite useful. Also, Terran with their defensive advantage can be fairly greedy with PFort plants and upgraded turrets.
Been doing this build pretty much 90% of the time vZ since I saw this thread. Gotta say, it's made me fall in love with the ZvT matchup. I hated the whole timing push strats that most terrans were going for, waiting in your base while muta just flew around and zerg expanded. Now I feel like I'm actually doing something. Even when zerg loses to this strat, most of the time they straight up tell me gg and thanks for the good game. When I lose, I think the same thing. It's really a momentum and back and forth type of thing. Totally wish this would be stickied, spice up the OP with lots of pics lol
I like the idea of the strat, but these replays don't really follow the build at all. Most of them are Foxer style marine harass into medivacs.
Also, it's always good to see replays when it works and T wins...what I'd also like to see ones where the build doesn't work (when it really doesn't work, not like T got cheesed or some stupid like that).
On November 18 2010 16:49 chaoser wrote: Been doing this build pretty much 90% of the time vZ since I saw this thread. Gotta say, it's made me fall in love with the ZvT matchup. I hated the whole timing push strats that most terrans were going for, waiting in your base while muta just flew around and zerg expanded. Now I feel like I'm actually doing something. Even when zerg loses to this strat, most of the time they straight up tell me gg and thanks for the good game. When I lose, I think the same thing. It's really a momentum and back and forth type of thing. Totally wish this would be stickied, spice up the OP with lots of pics lol
rofl is that u chaoser? ahahahah play me naooo!!! (agn)
If it is you, you should be ty'ing me for hooking you up with this strat :D
Hey, just quick question, what to do against "fast teching" zerg, when he goes for ultras, and what is general idea about playing against ultras? Just add mode raxes with tech labs and going marauders ? But that i feel kinda weird as i already have a lot of raxes with reactors.
I think I saw something similar with hydras->ultras happen on Blistering Sands. You can either get marauders or you can actually pop out banshees to both harass his third if he refuses to get any thing that shoots up and help you against the ultras and infestors. Masses of 3/3 Marines also don't fear ultras too much.
Hey Antisocialmunky, what do you do in this situation.
You move out with 3/4 ravens 25 rines, then get surrounded by lings blings muta. The problem I have is that the ravens never make it home after big pushes. what do i do?
On November 18 2010 23:56 Tha_Docta wrote: Hey Antisocialmunky, what do you do in this situation.
You move out with 3/4 ravens 25 rines, then get surrounded by lings blings muta. The problem I have is that the ravens never make it home after big pushes. what do i do?
In that exact situation, you should focus the mutas as best you can.
But really, when you have 3-4 ravens that should be when you have your 2nd maybe 3rd push (from my experience) By then, your marine waves should be alotttttt bigger. Focusing down the mutas makes them die real quick. If the mutas chase, you can seeker them or even just move up with marines.
As a Z player, I never seem to be able to kill Ravens fast enuff with mutas due to marine reinforcement etc.
Dropping a PDD, and turrets, and sending your second wave that was macroed up while you pushed out is usually how I do it. Some reps would be good. That's not a whole lot of marines for a timing with 4 ravens.
That is unless he's doing it off 2 base. That's somewhat tricky as its harder to push out.
On November 19 2010 00:01 Antisocialmunky wrote: Dropping a PDD, and turrets, and sending your second wave that was macroed up while you pushed out is usually how I do it. Some reps would be good. That's not a whole lot of marines for a timing with 4 ravens.
Okay Thanks, Il try it again and if im still having problems il put up some reps.
Well i wish there was something against zerg that doesn't force constant aggression /sigh. I miss my mech play T_T. B> spidermines for terran map control *sniff*
Well the thing you need against against aoe units is a good unit control, and zergs went for pretty macroish tactics. So i guess its pretty nice against a macro zerg.
Not playing zerg atm. So just some theoretical things. Spinecrawlers should work really well at the start against early agression. (you would need a good drop scouting though(so vikings would get annoying)) And later on they can defend the mineral lines against auto turrets.
Dunno if burrow cancels the aoe from the hsm (you would need a super good eye though)
If the terran constantly tryes to trade armys, and get an advantage because his units are so cheap, it would be good to save units. 0/3 roaches with burrow regene could help there i guess. (don't know though if they can withstand the marines and catch enough shots, since burrowing a roach may decrease the damage to much). The seeker missile, would also be an thread, so you would have to micro the roaches. Roaches would mean though you will have some overgas, and will be able to go for some harassment, since an aggressiv player will have some hohles in his defense. So zerg will have to play a bit terran like and sneak in 3 roaches etc ^^.
On November 18 2010 11:14 Psychonaut wrote: Roaches crush this combo
Hey welcome to TL. I think you're lost though, Blizzard forums are over there ———————>
srsly though, there are a lot of replays, and many of them show roaches losing. This isn't the place for useless one liners and lazy theory crafting.
Unless you are trolling....to which I say bravo to you sir, you got me.
For those having trouble with ultras, just make sure you're on top of upgrades and start pumping some marauders. Use barracks placement to your advantage to block or funnel. I actually had a nice replay on Xelnaga caverns of me trading pretty evenly against heavy roaches and banelings and some infestors, and then he got ultras out. My 3/3 marines actually owned them and the roaches with a little bit of micro and positioning. Marauders would have made it even easier.
I'm not sure I saved the replay since i didn't really use ravens. Just sone tanks and lots of medivacs. And a handful of banshees when I realized that roaches can't shoot up. I'll share the replay if I have it once my computer gets fixed, but it's looking more likely that I'll have to reinstall windows so I might lose all my replays. Not sure if they are in my backed up files or not O.o
Howdy. I've been doing my own little variation of this build, and having a blast with it, but I keep running into a problem. Is there a solid way to deal with early banelings without getting siege tanks when I'm pushing?
I don't know what you mean by 'early banelings'? A rep or a description of the timing would be better. You can usually hold a 1 base pretty easily unless your gate is down.
Or do you mean when they attack your marines. Again it depends on timing. You can look at KME's reps.
The most interesting thing about this build is that it exposes the weakness of all of the other TvZ builds. It's really the only one where I feel my terran opponent has an even chance. As soon as I see mech coming out I relax because I've pretty much won. I switch over to a roach heavy build and cruise to victory.
I don't lose every game against marine/tank or marine/raven, but it's a lot more even. I've found the key to the zerg response is, as I said a few pages back, keeping ling parity with marines for the first stage of the game. You can handle the first few pushes with lings only, or lings and only a few banelings, and save your gas for the later pushes. Once you're in the midgame, you use gas for to destroy midgame pushes with huge waves of banelings and mutas for the ravens, which lets you secure a third. The most important factor is not letting the terran force you to use too much gas too soon. I save my early game gas for upgrades, usually 2 evo chambers to match the marine upgrades. I've also had success building 5-6 roaches with the lings instead of banelings. The roaches have the same effect of modifying the strength of mass lings, but they generally survive the battle. Once the third is secure the terran is at a disadvantage. Once I'm on hive-tech, or I can start pumping mutas, infestors, anything gas heavy in large amount it crumbles pretty fast.
On November 19 2010 10:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't know what you mean by 'early banelings'? A rep or a description of the timing would be better. You can usually hold a 1 base pretty easily unless your gate is down.
Or do you mean when they attack your marines. Again it depends on timing. You can look at KME's reps.
Sorry, had to rush out the door so I didn't get to explain. I just mean dedicated baneling use against my marines as a defensive measure for the Zerg (to blow apart my aggression). I can handle it easily(ish) by transitioning into siege tanks, or just dealing with a baneling bust or something. I just find that unless I dedicate a lot of resources to tanks instead of Ravens, I have a lot of trouble keeping up my aggression against baneling usage. Is there some trick I'm missing using the ravens? Do I just need to transition into siege tanks to deal with it?
It depends. Marine positioning helps a lot and so do dense turret fields. In the late game, when you have enough Ravens, you can just HSM baneling herds.
Does don't Wig out and start running all your marines around across the map.
Pretty true what pwadoc said. If Zerg saves his gas and just insists on pressuring Terran with early speedlings it becomes an equal exchange of sorts with Terran never being able to mass enough marines for that critical mass against Zerglings. Thus, Zerg can spend their overabundance of minerals and save their gas for when they need it. Too many times opponents will witlessly waste banelings or get roaches.
And also true. Once Zerg takes a 3rd and it begins saturating I find it nearly impossible to win. Even if I get my own third. I can only do so much against infestors, mutas, banelings, speedlings being pumped out without impunity.
Wanted to share this game I just played. I feel like I did pretty good, got tons of things I need to improve but I figured someone might find this useful and or interesting.
I open with 2 port banshee into expand, while putting down barracks for transitioning to marine/raven. My opponent goes for muta/ling/bling and later adds roaches and infestors and ultras(yeah its a pretty long game)
I've been using this strat for about 2 weeks now. Most problems I've had with are early roach rushes, that usually come when my banshees are about half way done, the important part is just to hold your bunker up so your banshees get out before you lose half your base.
On October 25 2010 14:34 link0 wrote: The problem of this build is roach/hydra.
Actually I have been using this build with pretty decent success against roach hydra.
The reason is with that many ravens you can just throw down 5-6 PDDs (roaches have TWO SECOND attack which means that the point defence drones stop everything they throw at you) and so your marines literally do not take hits, and since marine dps is so potent they can just rip through huge amounts of roach hydra without getting taking many hits at all.
I have been practicing against my friend who uses this build and it really is very effective. The best response I have been able to use against it was making lots of queens and infestors to defend my bases against raven/banshee while my ling/bling groups raid his expos.
While a decent build this is shut down very easily by the zerg doing a few things.
1) Getting upgrades. If they're on even footing with you then you have no advantage.
2) Massing up speedlings early on. Don't even need banelings but they make it that much easier. You're free to drone up and expand to your hearts desire since even with 5-6 reactor barracks pumping marines constantly they cannot outmacro you even still. Using good stim/kite and marine spread makes that practice quite useless if you keep up your speedlings to be even with his army.
But this strat does work if the zerg is caught unaware or has not encountered large marine-based builds before. Raven harass is great but zerg mobility can shut it down quite easily as long as you're keeping your army near your expansions. Seeker missle can flat out be avoided completly in most situations as long as you're paying attention.
Worked great from 1800-2100 or so but now it's pretty much just something you do when you've gotten bored of doing an all-in 2 base push with mech/bio units. Completly countered by the zerg just out-macroing you once they figure out your strat.
I would really like to see some better replays from high-diamond since both seemed to just be testing a build and their opponent had no reaction to the situation.
The general response to mass ground is to go varying degrees of tanks and hellions and even marauders if those work better for you. As for reps, the best reps I can point you to are KME's reps. I suppose you could also expand off a 1-1-1 or something if you want to do a tech rush to knee cap zerg with banshees early on if you really wanted to.
Because this current period of TvZ is really weird right now since people are figuring out how to kill marine openings with zerg, it is hard to nail down responses to situations into the form of 'get X to beat Y.' You have to play it by ear and experience. At this point it if you want to play this sort of style, it is a question of how to react to zerg's midgame. Basically it is about how many tanks, hellions, marauders, banshee you need to get to stay alive until you get the crit mass of Ravens while still forcing zerg to spend resources.
If zerg did figure out how to 100% beat mass marine openings like people keep acting like zergs have, Terrans would be completely boned.
Also while feedback is encouraging...
[rant] ...I don't know why people keep complaining about getting rolled when they go straight marine + raven. You cannot do that anymore. I've repeatedly stated you cannot just go do that straight up except vs mass expanding zerg or zergs who go mass muta off two base. Its in the FAQ because updating the whole OP as the meta-game shifts is not feasible. You have to respond to what the other player is doing just like zergs are doing to marine builds. You have to adapt, its part of the fun. [/rant]
What should I do against mass speedling/baneling/infestors? Once rines get fungal'd banelings roll over them easily and it's near impossible to dodge fungal effectively when infestors are so quick on creep. Once Z reaches 8+ infestors, they seem to be able to destroy even 100 army of rines easily. Conserving raven is also painful cause once rines are cleaned up, infestor fungal ravens and then spawn infested which shoots raven down fast. Should I be adding siege tanks to the mix? I don't have replays with my ATM cause I forgot to save but I'll post one if I run into this build from zerg again. Note: zerg also gets double evo and keeps up with upgrades making 3/3 rines not as effective as you would want
Burn this build with fire! I've lost to it 4 times on the ladder just this week All terran's should just forget about the silly hellion business and just do this because it's 20x better.
On November 20 2010 15:46 robocup30 wrote: What should I do against mass speedling/baneling/infestors? Once rines get fungal'd banelings roll over them easily and it's near impossible to dodge fungal effectively when infestors are so quick on creep. Once Z reaches 8+ infestors, they seem to be able to destroy even 100 army of rines easily. Conserving raven is also painful cause once rines are cleaned up, infestor fungal ravens and then spawn infested which shoots raven down fast. Should I be adding siege tanks to the mix? I don't have replays with my ATM cause I forgot to save but I'll post one if I run into this build from zerg again. Note: zerg also gets double evo and keeps up with upgrades making 3/3 rines not as effective as you would want
As people have previously mentioned, 3/3 marines are not that effective against 3/3 zerg units but other marine based armies have the same issues and probably worse issues due to having the marine bit be the important part of their army. For that sort of composition, I'd really really stop for both tanks and medivacs. It really depends when the infestors come out though. Infestors are a pretty large investment so you won't see nearly as many other meat units like roaches.
Standard procedure to kill infestors and banelings when only speedlings are around is to stim about 4 units and run forward with them and then run them back preferably in and out of tank range.
The key as always is spreading your units out like vs banelings.
EMP is good against Infestors and Snipe is good against Banelings. We're requiring people to do insane 'rine micro against banelings why can't we ask that they practice some ghost micro? only need one!
And it takes 2 snipes plus 1 more damage (maybe from auto-turret) to kill an Infestor. Ghosts are better against mutas than tanks too lol
you cant do both ghost micro and marine micro at the same time, its impossible and you loose your ghosts most of the time in battles but the point of the ravens is not to loose them but build up the ir numbers to make them unstopable
Low/Mid diamond terran here. Have used this strat a few times and have been having good results (6-1 before today), yet never felt like I really nailed it.
Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost.
Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =)
I knew it was coming, so I built an extra bunker near my mineral line. But it wasn't enough. I have no idea what to do when this happens. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
On November 22 2010 01:43 Baggiez wrote: Low/Mid diamond terran here. Have used this strat a few times and have been having good results (6-1 before today), yet never felt like I really nailed it.
Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost.
Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =)
A lot of that came down to kinda bad macro(both players had bad macro but still) and some questionable decision making and mechanics. The most crucial parts of marine heavy openings is micro and while you can lose a lot of marines by going mass raven and macroing like a maniac, these days you need to be able to spread for banelings and basic stuff like that. You almost had the game won but you ran out of minerals by not calling down mules at all. The final nail in the coffin was not floating your main CC out. You were basically not mining for a large portion of the game.
Also, the baneling detonation on the PFort was epic.
PS.
If anyone wants to screw with zergs at the higher level with marine opening... I've been toying around with abusing Zerg's lack of easy scouting before lair.
Basically you can 2 Rax OC into the standard 3-5 marine push/bunker (The fast 2 Rax wall should be able to lock Z's scout out on larger maps).
Then you have two options:
-You can build a CC and float out. -Tech to banshee as fast as you can and expand with tanks and banshees.
Banshees should come out slightly after when you float your CC out.
The beauty of Banshees as people have been discovering is that it forces Z to tech to tech and get mobile AA (detection too if you go cloak). They can also run around the map killing ground units like crazy(go to pookie's thread). However, if you open with a 2 rax as with the standard marine FE and deny scouting ovies, you basically force zerg to blind commit to either a 2 base low tech semi-all to counter the mass marine(which shares the same opening) or do something with lair for the banshee at which point you can just delay the port and siege expand into turtle + drop play.
The main thing to nail down are the timings on the gases. It should be fun to use against better zergs who can tell what's coming.
On November 22 2010 01:43 Baggiez wrote: Low/Mid diamond terran here. Have used this strat a few times and have been having good results (6-1 before today), yet never felt like I really nailed it.
Just finished a long TvZ on JungleBasin; I used this strat and for the first time I felt like I played it out pretty well - and I lost.
Any feedback? I felt like I did a good job shutting down expansions and I nailed a few good HSM. At the end he managed to take out my 3rd while I didn't manage to take out his 3rd (I have a feeling this is where the game was lost). Anyway, constructive feedback requested =)
18min of game:
-Only 2 bases -1.3k gas : build more raven, 1 more Ebay for faster upgrade -Only 6 rax (remember you can support 10 rax on 2 bases) -0 micro on your marines: you lost so many of them vs blings OUT OF CREEP. -Your mineral management at early game was pretty bad : 1k+ min and 700 gas, you should have drop more barracks and 2 starport at the same time. -Your first "attack" was around 13min. You really should attack way earlier -PDD DOESN'T WORK AGAINST ROACHES -you lost so many ravens for nothing... you really don't have to lose them (it will allow you later to build medivacs for dropping, tanks for covering your b3 etc...). -2 OC with 200 energy. -Because you lose so many raven you had no opportunity to harass his 2nd, 3rd with turrets...
Near end game you didn't even lift your CC. You had 6 raven with so so many energy so you should have harass his 3rd with turrets (only 1 queen and 1 spine crawler to defend it).
your macro is horrible dude, most of the time you have +1k min and +2k gas !! Adding some bunkers is a good idea on this map to deal with many blings.
I find roach+infestor to be a goddamn nightmare against this, infestors will instagib your marines, and roaches will last from early to late game. I've been needing to transition to banshee/viking against this combination.
I've been doing a mass Raven build since beta. Infact, it's the only build I _ever_ run against zerg because of it's effectiveness. I don't use the marines as part of a force, they are simply for defensive measures and once enough have been massed, they can push out to an expansion (with Hellions too) while your Ravens are elsewhere.
You say corruptors are a problem, but I laugh at zerg's who try to use corruptors against my Raven army. Corruptors do bad damage against light units, and Ravens are light. Corruptors can't shoot through PDD and they attack quite slowely which increases PDD's effectiveness. Corruptors still get stomped by auto turrets.
I'll write up my full Raven build later as it highly differs from this one, but this does look quite good.
On November 24 2010 15:23 Griffith` wrote: I find roach+infestor to be a goddamn nightmare against this, infestors will instagib your marines, and roaches will last from early to late game. I've been needing to transition to banshee/viking against this combination.
I suppose. I always keep them spread when they are a sitting around and zone with tanks. I find that mass speedling/baneling/infestor is more effective than this. Though tanks and banshees are both fairly good support units against this composition.
On November 24 2010 21:28 AcidReniX wrote: I don't use the marines as part of a force, they are simply for defensive measures and once enough have been massed, they can push out to an expansion (with Hellions too) while your Ravens are elsewhere.
I've been doing the same, and continue to wonder at what level does this become ineffective? At what level is the whole continual marine harrass required?
On November 27 2010 12:22 Almania wrote:I've been doing the same, and continue to wonder at what level does this become ineffective? At what level is the whole continual marine harrass required?
marine + hellion is cool and all but after playing around with both openers, I'm pretty convinced that continual marine harass forces more larvae to be spent. Proof of this is when I would check my replays and compare the number of my scvs vs the number of drones.
I am starting to come to the opinion that the FE is the wrong way to go about this build. As I have been using this build at higher and higher levels the main problem is that my first attack just gets crushed by a big ball of banelings/zerglings or that mass zergling pressure has really been successful at killing all my scvs/marine at my expansion before I have a big enough marine ball. I think the key to this strategy is really to keep the number of units the zerg has to a minimum. You can build up a ball of about 25 marines + stim MUCH faster if you forgo the FE and just do the expand as your first ball moves out.
The main advantages of this build are in the constant pressure and i don't think the pressure comes fast enough if your worrying about expanding so early in the game. Even the 1 or 2 minutes that a FE delays you is a HUGE difference in this strategy because at the high levels its SO SO FRAGILE. If your first push gets wasted easily by banelings then its basically over. You really need to at least nearly wipe out his entire force with your first push or else his lings will be in your expansion wtf pwning your scvs and you will never be able to recover from that. Also if you see him starting to spread creep SCAN THAT and shut it down early, it makes a huge difference because once the creep spread really gets going you are in big trouble and that big trouble will come before ravens.
I'm sorry this advice doesnt really explain well why I believe the FE doesn't work well but just trust that I have executed this strategy many many times over the last month and I can just feel that this is right.
statikg: The point of this build is not to 'not die in 1st push', not even 'do much damage with that 1st push'. its just 'shit your pants and build lings instead of drones, also, secure my expansion'. Of course, in some cases it's propably better to 1 base 1st push (steppes maybe? close spots metalopolis?) but you need that cc anyways. about timings: i ussually have enough rines (like 15) to attack in between the 'scary push' with stim. what i do with my army: first 3 marines go map control (kill lings, overlords), 15 marines push (they die, but they force Z to make lings or roaches, no matter what), stim almost finishes and there are almost 20 rines ready. another way to do it is to go for combat shield instead of stim and push once (instead of while waiting for stim and then with stim) with already upped rines (shield takes almost half of stims time to research). the funny thing is, when Z see me go fast expand, they ussually go for quick bling bust or rr. sometimes i lose (i have a hole in my wall), but when you manage to kill off that attack, and put down more barracks and cc in your base in the meantime, Z is just screwed - when i get to his base with my marines, therere like 5 drones at his nat.
..Shield only takes 30 seconds less. I personally always go stim first, as I feel I can cause more damage with studder stepping stimmed marines, than having 10hp more on each.
If you have a map with a small choke, ie shakuras, LT, Block it with 3 barracks. You can delay that incoming rebound sling bling attack after they shat on your army.
I've found zergs over prepare banelings, which can be a very disadvantageous situation when you lose your army and they just come check you with a bust, that ends up being game ending. I lose to 1 base zergs more than I lose to 3 base zerg.
I do normal 10 supply 12 rax 14 rax 16 oc 16 supply 27/28 CC, then if marine push failed, lift supply, and double gas. I find that rebounds rather nicely, giving me time to another rax or two and fac down to push out again with marine tank. The best army comp I've ever used was marine tank hellion medic, as it tore through anything at all. You have to be aware of late game tech changes though, as ultras and broodlords make marines retardedly easy to kill
Stim is definitely better these days for dodging banelings and running away. Just don't abuse it and have nothing but half health marines left over.
I don't feel that late game problem is broodlords or utlras on their own, its the potentially high infestor/ultra combo with ling and bling support that really demolish marine/tank positions and pushes.
I've never seen infestor + ultras. Ever. I see ultra sling roach. Broodlord sling roach. Sling bling infestor. Infestor roach bling. Just a bit gas intensive to do a little infestor/ultra/sling/bling and god forbid they have upgrades.
That's like 6 refineries + worth of gas build up all game.
What else I find is ironic, is the lose everything to ultras in the main post. I think we can agree thors shit all over ultras when you battle in correct spots. 78 or so a volley? Easy to FF down ultras in my mind. I love seeing ultras. I switch all my rax to marauders from marines, and go once I feel I have enough. The game always ends after a marauder thor vs ultra transition.
It really depends on what position you end up in late game but most of the times I encounter ultras either Zerg could have won in any way he wanted to or he was going to lose anyway and it was out of desperation.
Yes, Thors are great and probably the most reliable endgame but that assumes you have enough time to transition into a mass Thor ball. I still like my mass Marine/Raven with big late game tank/hellion lines. :-\
On November 28 2010 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: It really depends on what position you end up in late game but most of the times I encounter ultras either Zerg could have won in any way he wanted to or he was going to lose anyway and it was out of desperation.
Yes, Thors are great and probably the most reliable endgame but that assumes you have enough time to transition into a mass Thor ball. I still like my mass Marine/Raven with big late game tank/hellion lines. :-\
Don't always need a mass thor ball. If you have 2 factories, you can churn out 2-4 thors to be some form of moving blockade, easily.
I always find time and minerals *generally* to transition into thors when I need to. Remember barracks have 1000 health, +2 armor with upgrade, and provide GREAT walls to buy time.
I've been toying a bit with this style of play and the aggressive FE build by KME and I want to start using it in my TvZ, as I think it has the potential to not only be effective but also loads of fun. I do have a couple of questions though:
Roughly at what time do you want to be doing your marine + raven push? The one that's listed as attacking Zergs third. I tend to be moving out somewhere right after the 11 minute mark, which feels as if it's a bit late?
What would be a good time to take a third? I do get a bunch of excess minerals around the time when I push out with my initial raven, so economically that would make sense to me I guess.
I have used this build too less to critisize it but it is definately not my style of play and I don't see the raven to be very very useful at all, especialy since turrets dont work like FF and dont push units aside. Its too micro intensive for a player of my skill (high plat) and seems mean towards zerg players lolz
So this is still faring pretty well? I haven't been able to play lately but in a week I'll be back into it and I'm trying to refresh my memory on this, and also weigh it against the 4OC build that's recently come up.
Has there been success transitioning from the 4OC opener into marine raven? Or is it better to stick to the openings presented initially in this thread? They both are/sound so fun that I'm kinda sad they are both for zerg. This makes two interesting ways to play TvZ but leaves TvP feeling kind of boring to me :p
You can support a max of 600 min/minute and about 250 gas/minute off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
This is like the most helpful thing I've ever read on this site. :/ For some reason I've never been able to kick sc1 mentality and would make 6 barracks, 2 starports, and then wonder why I had 8 million money.
But its funny because I could have easily just looked a replay and realized I was making pretty constantly out of my barracks and still being rich. :/
your build is kind of strange, nothing like i expected. it's more like mass marines into few ravens to seal the deal since in 3 of the replays i've watched you severely outmacroed your zerg opponent from start. you couldve followed it with basically any wacky unit your heart desired. 10 to 15 harvesters over a zerg that's .....
i always go mass raven against zerg but in a somewhat different fashion
bunker block or ebay marines into 2 siege expand into PF + bunkers stop @ ~20 marines 2-3 sieges
4 ravens out of 2 starports follow with vikingks reasearch building armor have fun
this is a replay against the only decent counter i had, mass raven still worked nice, too bad i suck @ multtasking and i eventually lost. the rest of zerg mass raven are so one sided its not worth it. the only counter i expect to stomp me is a fast ultra response.
You can support a max of 600 min/minute and about 250 gas/minute off 1 base. That is 5 rax and 1 SP so you should end up with 8-10 rax and 2 SP off 2 bases.
This is like the most helpful thing I've ever read on this site. :/ For some reason I've never been able to kick sc1 mentality and would make 6 barracks, 2 starports, and then wonder why I had 8 million money.
But its funny because I could have easily just looked a replay and realized I was making pretty constantly out of my barracks and still being rich. :/
It is actually closer to 900/240. Its about 120 per geyser and a maxed out base is close to 900. However you need about 300 of that to comfortably build SCVs and depots. So cutting SCVs (~200 min/min) gains you a huge amount of income.
On December 28 2010 21:48 danielsan wrote: your build is kind of strange, nothing like i expected. it's more like mass marines into few ravens to seal the deal since in 3 of the replays i've watched you severely outmacroed your zerg opponent from start. you couldve followed it with basically any wacky unit your heart desired. 10 to 15 harvesters over a zerg that's .....
i always go mass raven against zerg but in a somewhat different fashion
bunker block or ebay marines into 2 siege expand into PF + bunkers stop @ ~20 marines 2-3 sieges
4 ravens out of 2 starports follow with vikingks reasearch building armor have fun
this is a replay against the only decent counter i had, mass raven still worked nice, too bad i suck @ multtasking and i eventually lost. the rest of zerg mass raven are so one sided its not worth it. the only counter i expect to stomp me is a fast ultra response.
Your replay had me cringing. You could have won that game 3 or 4 times before the zerg started to kill your expos. I don't understand why you didn't just push out with your tanks and marines and win the game after you killed his 3rd and 4th twice. I also dont understand why you left all of your tanks in your main after your main AND natural were totally mined out.
TL:DR The zerg did not have a decent counter and played almost as badly as you. You lost to hydras when you had tanks AND ravens. Shame on you. You did a good job of stifling the zerg's econ but you squandered your lead several times by letting the zerg rebuild. You can't just win games by harassing, at some point you HAVE to go for the killing blow.
Mass ultra is good against marine/raven, especially if you don't upgrade your marines and don't get tanks. Hydra's *should* get roflraped by raven/marine/tank.
Hey Antisocialmunky. Thank you for posting this build. I really appreciate it. I started trying it out in TvZ a few days ago and its working well. I'm having a bit of trouble in games that go later. I was hoping you could tell me what I am doing wrong. Here is a replay with a prime example. Thanks again!
On December 31 2010 01:41 simian_sc wrote: Hey Antisocialmunky. Thank you for posting this build. I really appreciate it. I started trying it out in TvZ a few days ago and its working well. I'm having a bit of trouble in games that go later. I was hoping you could tell me what I am doing wrong. Here is a replay with a prime example. Thanks again!
The main reason you lost was you are like me and tend to stick on 2 base for too long. You should have thrown down an expansion with one of your big pushes but didn't. It was a strange game with very few banelings... Generally against lings, you should be trying to make your units into a giant blob when they get spread out. Also, work on your macro, it threw your attack timings and left you without that late game raven cloud. You should have had more than you had since you weren't producing tanks.
On December 31 2010 09:09 Komsa wrote: Having some fun with the rine/raven composition. Not a build order showcase, but still crushing a 2.1k+ Zerg.
On December 31 2010 01:41 simian_sc wrote: Hey Antisocialmunky. Thank you for posting this build. I really appreciate it. I started trying it out in TvZ a few days ago and its working well. I'm having a bit of trouble in games that go later. I was hoping you could tell me what I am doing wrong. Here is a replay with a prime example. Thanks again!
The main reason you lost was you are like me and tend to stick on 2 base for too long. You should have thrown down an expansion with one of your big pushes but didn't. It was a strange game with very few banelings... Generally against lings, you should be trying to make your units into a giant blob when they get spread out. Also, work on your macro, it threw your attack timings and left you without that late game raven cloud. You should have had more than you had since you weren't producing tanks.
Awesome. Thanks for the advice! I'm platinum rank 1 with about 2200 points. Pretty close to ranking up to diamond I think. I know my macro needs work. But I guess my only other question would be, in late game like that with his mass of ultras and mutas, whats a cloud of Ravens gonna do? Just spam turret and HSM?
If he has Ultra + Muta, then the rine/rav strategy has already broken down. It's not the nature of mass marine/ravine to fight a zerg on those kinda terms. Quite frankly if he had that combo, you're execution before hand is what lost you the game. Worry about what rine/rav does against ulta/muta is wasting your time.
The title reads rine/rav right? The idea is to play in such a way that allows that composition to thrive. If you wondering about counters you're missing the point.
Now onto some fundamentals, and some early mistakes that lead to an inhospitable environment for rine/ran -->
He tried to hit you with some lings. So your first push/threat has already been accounted for. No need to move out with the first 5. Regardless, keep your initial rine threats grouped tightly.
Lead your pushes with an scv (looking for banelings or masses). He over reacted severely to your first attack, so your 2nd threat wasn't needed either, in other words it already did it's job just by way of your opponent playing badly.
The moment you had 5 SCV's queued up on each CC should tell you need to box about 5 SCV and spam 5 barracks ;] walling your natural (great against ultra)! You ravens coulda came out much sooner as well if you subtract your queuing.
Lastly, focus firing that hatch with nothing around was pointless. You army will auto attack anything in range, no need to force them to act stupidly. Just walk them near that makes it a wall to help your marines too if they get attacked. That was the death nail homey. Just imagine your attack at 15:44 if that previous attack did a worthy trade.
On January 01 2011 03:02 Komsa wrote: If he has Ultra + Muta, then the rine/rav strategy has already broken down. It's not the nature of mass marine/ravine to fight a zerg on those kinda terms. Quite frankly if he had that combo, you're execution before hand is what lost you the game. Worry about what rine/rav does against ulta/muta is wasting your time.
The title reads rine/rav right? The idea is to play in such a way that allows that composition to thrive. If you wondering about counters you're missing the point.
Now onto some fundamentals, and some early mistakes that lead to an inhospitable environment for rine/ran -->
He tried to hit you with some lings. So your first push/threat has already been accounted for. No need to move out with the first 5. Regardless, keep your initial rine threats grouped tightly.
Lead your pushes with an scv (looking for banelings or masses). He over reacted severely to your first attack, so your 2nd threat wasn't needed either, in other words it already did it's job just by way of your opponent playing badly.
The moment you had 5 SCV's queued up on each CC should tell you need to box about 5 SCV and spam 5 barracks ;] walling your natural (great against ultra)! You ravens coulda came out much sooner as well if you subtract your queuing.
Lastly, focus firing that hatch with nothing around was pointless. You army will auto attack anything in range, no need to force them to act stupidly. Just walk them near that makes it a wall to help your marines too if they get attacked. That was the death nail homey. Just imagine your attack at 15:44 if that previous attack did a worthy trade.
Cool thanks for the pointers. So are you saying if he gets to that kind of end game (mass ultra) then the rine/raven strat has failed? As in, its designed to beat him mid game? I mean, I know in the OP he talks about gearing up your biggest attack around the time he takes his 3rd. But does that mean if I can't kill him by then its GG?
Well, if you must fight ultras, then you should note that it takes Ultras about 8 shots to kill a turret. The issue isn't ultra, the issue is fighting 4+ zerg bases off a lower number of bases. For Ultras, well you can just throw marauders at them like people have mentioned on SotG.
I have used this build with great results despite my horrific macro. However, I have question about how this build should be executed. I try to build constantly out of my 2 ports for ravens and have found recently that mass roach shuts down marine pushes. So when facing roach I tend to use my marines for defense and use the raven cloud to shut down Zerg much like muta can shut down Terran xpos and prevent pushes. My question concerns investors. Since investors make using mass ravens in a cloud useless, should I split my ravens and harass multiple xpos or should I try to incoporate ghosts which will obviously cut into the raven count.
Finally, I always use auto turrets against the enemy drone lines but is hsm effective for quick in and out permanent damage. I have also talked with EGLzGaMeR about the build and he thought with a bit of rearranging it could be quite effective even at the highest levels of play.
I actually just thought of this. Would ghosts if forced out by investors be a bit more viable if you use nukes to try to force drones into clumps for hsm and to force Zerg to spend gas on overseers?
Greetings everyone. This is my current build along with ravens. Basically its a hellion opening -> teching to siege tank and stim -> get ravens theand seeker missile +/- at the time he gets mutas. Ravens deal the mutas, and marines/tanks deal with grund. My macro seems alot broke, and i would like to hear your opinions, thoughts.
I've been watching some BW games nowadays, I didn't really follow BW scene since I wasn't really interested with the game after I picked it up in my childhood (it was actually one of the first 3-4 original games I've ever owned) and I gotta say BW TvZ looks not only so much fun to watch as a spectator, but also seems much more fun to play.
I mean once Zerg gets a ball of banelings with ling and muta support, unless you can siege up a sufficient amounts of tanks at a really good position (and hope that those lightning speed lings don't make it to the tanks, which they do) I can't really see how it is possible to engage Zerg in an even foot on ground. 8-10 Helions in frontlines might devastate that ling force, and leave room for your tanks to blow banelings, but just in theory.
Zerg sees everything with creep, and not only that, creep gives speed, and with mutalisks taking control of air and map, you don't get to engage Zerg without him knowing anything about it. Once he sees you, he only needs to send the ling/bling ball once your tanks are in an awkward position, and it is GG. A smart Zerg, will never directly confront your sieged tanks without Ultra or Broodlord Support unless he's desperate or severely outnumbers the Terran army.
In comparison, I watch some Flash vs. Jaedong matches from Youtube, (btw it is a really great rivalry and those players are so awesome to watch, they are like Federer vs. Nadal of SC as far as I can understand), and the matchup looks much more fun.Banelings are much more deadlier to Terran army than Lurker as far as I can understand. True, Lurkers also decimate infantry, but the Zerg also needs to position them well, while in SC2, Zerg just selects banelings, clicks 1-a, and there you go, unless Terran has godly marine micro or a ball of siege tanks blowing banelings to pieces before they get to your marines, you can say farewell to your marines and watch Mutas clean everything up. As far as I can see from BW, TvZ is just interesting...marines can die fast, but they are not that hopeless against Lurkers as SC2 Marines are against Banelings. It's just so easier compared to positioning Lurkers.
My tone sounds like I'm whining, but I am actually just a Zerg player trying out Terran. I made it to Diamond as Zerg about two months ago, but now decided to play Terran. I'm now in Platinum, and boy, being on the other side, just sucks. I don't like shit like Bunker rushes or 2 rax all-in with scv shit, I just want to play a good, normal game. But Zerg spreads like cancer and it's just...so disheartening to feel so hopeless. Whenever I decide to make a push, Zerg comes with his ball before I can even react to siege my tanks and everything eveporates. If I have to go ridiculous all-in, or cheese everytime vs. Zerg, then I may just go back to playing Zerg before my ability diminishes too much since I don't enjoy cheesing. It may win you games yes, but I play the game for fun and cheese is much more riskier than a well-planned game.
I feel like Terran players do not have the right ideas to combat Banelings. It is similar to how PvP is usually Colossus fest. But with Ravens, you get more options. This is why this build is so interesting: Two HSM can take out a ball of banelings before they get to your marines, and leave room for your marines to deal damage. They can do the same to Muta balls. Auto Turret fields, can help your tanks to get into position. Point Defense Drone, will nullify Muta shots. I think Ravens are the most underrated, underused unit in Terran arsenal, especially against Zerg. It would be brilliant if Ravens take the role of Science Vessels in SC2.
That replay is really long, so watch it at your own risk. I am posting it to say thank you to Antisocialmunky, whose thread (this one) got me started on the idea of mass ravens. I'm no where near good enough to have mastered this, but this time it worked out swell.
Brief game synopsis: Scrap Station 1-1-2 for fast banshees does ok but doesnt win it. Game goes back and forth until my wall gets broken. I save all production buildings and tower up at the island expo. Agressive use of ravens and vikings allow me to bleed the zerg dry of gas and thus win the game. Mass ravens make this possible.
tl;dr : Thanks for the great build idea, here is perhaps my favorite game using it thus far!
I just played a game today...never had so much fun and never felt so aggressive against Zerg....I don't even have 20 wins with Terran atm so I'm really really bad, but my opponent wasn't pro either...Anyway.. I still miss the 3rd base timing attack so in this game I denied his 4th and 5th constantly with mass raven and auto turrets...his mutas were no problem..with PDD and seeker missile they were toast.
Once he lost the air control..I just traded Marines to his Banelings while I denied his 4th and 5th...it felt sooo good...At a point I blew up like 20 mutas with a HSM to like 5% health.....once he lost his Muta force I kept denying him and then trading marines.....I had like 5 bases and 8k minerals 3k gas (because I'm bad still haha) but this was just FUN to play.
Edit: At a point I was 30 food behind, and then I blew up 50 food worth of Ling/muta/bling with two HSM. It was sooo fun.
Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
Here is the replay:
[url blocked]
Keep in mind that I'm a really really new Terran, I don't have 25wins yet and I lose a ton of games left and right, forget depots, macro slips so and so on, just warning you ^^
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
Here is the replay:
[url blocked]
Keep in mind that I'm a really really new Terran, I don't have 25wins yet and I lose a ton of games left and right, forget depots, macro slips so and so on, just warning you ^^
Thanks for help ^^
If that's your situation then that's probably the problem. You just need to work on your mechanics and focus on never letting your macro slip. You should focus on that first, otherwise your timings and unit counts will be really off for any strategy. You can look on Day[9]'s blip.tv archive for some tips such as:
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
Here is the replay:
[url blocked]
Keep in mind that I'm a really really new Terran, I don't have 25wins yet and I lose a ton of games left and right, forget depots, macro slips so and so on, just warning you ^^
Thanks for help ^^
If that's your situation then that's probably the problem. You just need to work on your mechanics and focus on never letting your macro slip. You should focus on that first, otherwise your timings and unit counts will be really off for any strategy. You can look on Day[9]'s blip.tv archive for some tips such as:
Thanks for the tip. I've been following day9 the day before I got the game, I watched his daily on mental checklists. The biggest problem is I don't have enough practice with Terran yet. I'm getting better tho, with each game my mechanics get better. Although they still suck
So let me ask the question in a different way, when should my first 1 raven+30marine attack hit idealy, when it is perfectly executed with no supply blocks and with the best case scenario? Should I commit when I see a ton of units, or just expand, get upgrades and macro hard, while harrassing with raven.
The worst part about this build is keeping the ravens alive. The idea is great, but if you don't win every battle, your raven ball will die because they are so damn slow. The timing is also very difficult to hit if the distance is huge. I used to use it quite often on LT, but this build does not work on the larger GSL maps.
On January 31 2011 07:36 imBLIND wrote: The worst part about this build is keeping the ravens alive. The idea is great, but if you don't win every battle, your raven ball will die because they are so damn slow. The timing is also very difficult to hit if the distance is huge. I used to use it quite often on LT, but this build does not work on the larger GSL maps.
We'll personally don;t have an issue with this. Drop some HSM and the enemy has to run, then you move toward the other direction their going.
On January 31 2011 07:36 imBLIND wrote: The worst part about this build is keeping the ravens alive. The idea is great, but if you don't win every battle, your raven ball will die because they are so damn slow. The timing is also very difficult to hit if the distance is huge. I used to use it quite often on LT, but this build does not work on the larger GSL maps.
We'll personally don;t have an issue with this. Drop some HSM and the enemy has to run, then you move toward the other direction their going.
Mutas actually are no problem. With enough ravens, PDDs defend you enough to get out. Hydras are slow, so you can probably run away with 1-2 PDDs aswell. The only problem would be corrupters, but they do nothing by themselves and marines should shred them. A lot of corrupters would mean less units on ground, which is awesome nevertheless for you.
Biggest issue to this build is actually infestors. Fungal Growth, and you cannot run out. If you have energy just seeker the hell out of it, at that replay above, I was down 30 Food and killed like 40-50 Food with 2 Seeker missiles. It was so damn fun.
This build is really fun to play, no matter how successful it can be.
That replay is really long, so watch it at your own risk. I am posting it to say thank you to Antisocialmunky, whose thread (this one) got me started on the idea of mass ravens. I'm no where near good enough to have mastered this, but this time it worked out swell.
Brief game synopsis: Scrap Station 1-1-2 for fast banshees does ok but doesnt win it. Game goes back and forth until my wall gets broken. I save all production buildings and tower up at the island expo. Agressive use of ravens and vikings allow me to bleed the zerg dry of gas and thus win the game. Mass ravens make this possible.
tl;dr : Thanks for the great build idea, here is perhaps my favorite game using it thus far!
edited for spelling.
Great game : you won even though he often had 100 more food than you
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
Here is the replay:
[url blocked]
Keep in mind that I'm a really really new Terran, I don't have 25wins yet and I lose a ton of games left and right, forget depots, macro slips so and so on, just warning you ^^
Thanks for help ^^
If that's your situation then that's probably the problem. You just need to work on your mechanics and focus on never letting your macro slip. You should focus on that first, otherwise your timings and unit counts will be really off for any strategy. You can look on Day[9]'s blip.tv archive for some tips such as:
Thanks for the tip. I've been following day9 the day before I got the game, I watched his daily on mental checklists. The biggest problem is I don't have enough practice with Terran yet. I'm getting better tho, with each game my mechanics get better. Although they still suck
So let me ask the question in a different way, when should my first 1 raven+30marine attack hit idealy, when it is perfectly executed with no supply blocks and with the best case scenario? Should I commit when I see a ton of units, or just expand, get upgrades and macro hard, while harrassing with raven.
Around the 12 minutes I think. It varies with how much stuff you're building, how fast you are teching, whether or not you are popping tanks out, and if you build both SPs at the same time. So somewhere between 11-13 or condition wise, about when the drones transfer to the third or the third base pops for a greedy zerg.
I have to say thank you for this thread. It taught me not only how to mass ravens, but how to really know a build order. Before this thread I used BOs like a cookbook recipe. Now I'm thinking about them as a series of strategic goals, and preparation for denying your opponent his goals.
On January 31 2011 05:26 Bleak wrote: Antisocialmunky, I'm having a hard time punishing Zerg's third. Usually when I move out with a lot of rines and a raven, they have a ton of ling bling and my force dies without doing anything. It feels like the push is too early, I don't have any units, or my opponents are playing bad and making too many units. Should I delay the push? The game I played today I didn't really push until 3-4 ravens at least, and harrassed his 4th and 5th constnatly with mass raven, turrets and seeker missile. He had to stay on three base for whole game while I got my 4th and 5th secured with planetary fortresses and turrets. Is this the correct way, or am I doing something wrong with moving out to his third.
Do you have replays? It is hard to tell from limited information though it is my experience that lower level zergs do tend to make more units earlier rather than after they've secured an economic advantage later to crank units. I suppose if you can at some point get into a position where you can out expand zerg and deny their extra base, you're doing it right.
Like I said, it would be useful to have the replay to do more analysis. Also, you might want to check your macro out.
Here is the replay:
[url blocked]
Keep in mind that I'm a really really new Terran, I don't have 25wins yet and I lose a ton of games left and right, forget depots, macro slips so and so on, just warning you ^^
Thanks for help ^^
If that's your situation then that's probably the problem. You just need to work on your mechanics and focus on never letting your macro slip. You should focus on that first, otherwise your timings and unit counts will be really off for any strategy. You can look on Day[9]'s blip.tv archive for some tips such as:
Thanks for the tip. I've been following day9 the day before I got the game, I watched his daily on mental checklists. The biggest problem is I don't have enough practice with Terran yet. I'm getting better tho, with each game my mechanics get better. Although they still suck
So let me ask the question in a different way, when should my first 1 raven+30marine attack hit idealy, when it is perfectly executed with no supply blocks and with the best case scenario? Should I commit when I see a ton of units, or just expand, get upgrades and macro hard, while harrassing with raven.
Around the 12 minutes I think. It varies with how much stuff you're building, how fast you are teching, whether or not you are popping tanks out, and if you build both SPs at the same time. So somewhere between 11-13 or condition wise, about when the drones transfer to the third or the third base pops for a greedy zerg.
Thanks for answering.
One great thing with this build is how you are Muta-proofed. With PDD, you lol at Mutas. If hes bad enough to stack them, say goodbye to them with Seeker Missiles. If he comes to harrass, your armor and range upgraded turrets create enough time for you take your mass marine waves out of your raxes to hold it off while you try to seeker missile them (not to kill always but he has to run away, isn't that what you want against Mutas?)
And against bad players, Seeker Missile works wonders. You can seeker missile a bunch of baneling clump, even taking lings together. Infestors are a problem, yes, if you get fungalled and about to lose them, just try to do most damage with seeker missiles if you have the energy and option.
But I'm really confused. So I get my little force ready to march. I scan his front, see a ton of ling/bling, should I go suicide the marines (just because I'm trading gas for minerals), or wait for big stuff like Seeker Missile and more upgrades, go for a third, turtle up (maybe with 1-2 tanks and bunkers?), and try to deny his other expansions with a raven cloud and turrets? Or just try to go and keep pressure on matter what? I feel so fragile with that little force to go and take out a third base. Now, I'm a really new Terran player yes and probably I first need to work on my fundamentals for the Terran, but still the force itself seems little. I'm not saying this as a noob Terran, I'm talking as a Zerg, I've played Zerg for around 350 games in 1v1, and I know I can just take out the marines easily with a good ling/bling force. I just don't see how that force can take out my Hatch from the Zerg player's point of view. It seems pointless to me to march all the way across the map to kill the third when I can see you with creep . 12-13 Minutes sounds good, but Zerg should still have a sufficient baneling/ling force to deal with that. Yes, you're trading gas for minerals, but can you take out the third no matter what?
How should I approach taking out the third? I just love this build so much and want this to be my main strat in the matchup as a new Terran player.
You cannot get away with mindlessly a-moving your armies anymore and tanks are almost a necessity early on. Marauders are also a nice option since you will have atleast one tech lab barracks. I personally like hellion because the factory you make is going to sit on its duff otherwise after an initial run of tanks. With tanks you want to spread your marines out around them and have a small group running around the edge of siege range being annoying. With hellions, you want to drag the zerg army out of position and kite his units. With marauders, you want them to take baneling hits. Medivacs aren't bad though I don't experiment with them enough. Maybe an early run of tanks + medivacs + a raven would work better. I don't know but drops are indeed very good.
I suppose it comes down to preference unit composition wise. Tactics and over all strategy wise, one of the things that is very useful to do is just clear out creep tumors. Fly over with your marines and ravens to feint a push onto the creep but instead take out a bunch of tumors and withdraw. Turrets are also pretty good for mass creep erasing.
There are many reasons to target creep that I won't go into but suffice to say, creep becomes a major advantage for zerg if you let it be. Its not usually the big line of creep to your base. Its more often the creep not directly going towards you that kills you (they let Zerg flank really well) so deal with it. Creep on many maps also allows zerg to take and defend their third. One many maps that aren't lost temple, the creep has to go towards you and then to the third base. On these maps, its really easy to eat away at that exposed creep so it becomes harder for zerg to maintain map control.
You'll also generally want to control the middle areas of the map and force engagements close to zerg and farther from you. If you are engaging near zerg, they can't expand as easily but you can expand much easier. If you ultra fail, it is harder for zerg to counter you. If he goes for mutas, it becomes extremely risky for him to fly his muta to harass you. If you saw the Flash vs Jaedong MSL with PowerOutage, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you kill creep, this becomes easier. The map itself is really telling as to who is winning. Generally you want to contest map control with zerg the whole game.
My general gameplan from observing the numerous replays is: Early Game - Force 1 round of lings early with 5 Marine Push, try to snipe Ovie. This is basically a free timing that's guaranteed to turn out well for Terran. 5:00 - 10:00 - Zerg has map control because he maxes production off 2 base faster, defend expo and build army. Watch out for some sort of bust. However if Zerg is kneecapped, then push out with a stim + upgrade timing attack to win game. 10:00 - 15:00 - Macro potential off 2 base maximized. Put pressure on zerg and try to make his third a money hole(costs more to hold than it makes money). Look to take potential third if Zerg's third really gets up and running. 15:00+ - Deny creep, deny extra bases, take extra bases preferably near zerg with Pforts. Try to push up to natural and turret contain. 20:00 - 30:00 - If this strategy works then Zerg runs out of money, win game.
Generally works best on big maps (gogo GSL map pool) with a third that is towards you or very small maps with exposed expos.
I've watched more Pokebunny replays, and one thing I notice is constant aggression, constant upgrading, not forgetting to expand and just keeping the pressure/trade up. After some waves the zerg just crumples.
ASM I might have a little cheesey TvZ for you if you would like a few reps and a run down.
It's a reactor hellion harass into reactor viking -> marine tank viking medic scv push around 10 minute. If all goes well, a small bunker harass 3 min, hellion harass 5 min, viking harass OLs and drones and queens (Vikings rape queens on the ground) run, repair, pull scvs, and rush all in.
I even worked out one where I put a CC in base after I 1-1-1 very effectively
Opens up a very good leg to stand on, with 3 reactors to land raxes on, and 1-1-1 ready with an expo.
On February 04 2011 11:40 iAmJeffReY wrote: ASM I might have a little cheesey TvZ for you if you would like a few reps and a run down.
It's a reactor hellion harass into reactor viking -> marine tank viking medic scv push around 10 minute. If all goes well, a small bunker harass 3 min, hellion harass 5 min, viking harass OLs and drones and queens (Vikings rape queens on the ground) run, repair, pull scvs, and rush all in.
I even worked out one where I put a CC in base after I 1-1-1 very effectively
Opens up a very good leg to stand on, with 3 reactors to land raxes on, and 1-1-1 ready with an expo.
Sure, go for it - it sounds like the stove except with hellions :D. Anyone should feel free to PM me with silliness.
There's a shitload of pages in this thread and I just saw it now.
I've wanted to try out marine raven since beta but never really got around to researching it, so I'm glad you wrote this up.
Sorry if it was mentioned already (which it probably has since there's 35 pages), but have you considered getting a ghost or two to EMP infestors if he adds them to his army? Does it hinder your gas for ravens too much? Possibly get a couple late-game when you already have a nice sized raven cloud?
You should try to solve problems with what you have instead of what would be nice.
The main issue with ghosts is they are incredibly expensive and micro intensive. Remember APM and attention are resources. If you think a mineral/gas/APM/attention intensive unit is worth the ability in game then go for it. I frankly just get enough tanks or bleed enough gas out of Zerg to deal with it. See Marine/Medivac style (See the JP & Friends with LzGamer).
The alternative is to make your army kill everything to death so they can't afford to make a whole ton of infestors because they'd like die horribly. Blue Hellions are quite good in this mix because Zerg won't be able to throw gasless zerglings at you in a economic way. You can additionally wound his econ on more open map in such a way he can't make infestors effectively as well.
Antisocialmunky,if lets say there is an engagement in the zerg's 4th, with a ling/baneling/muta army vs my rine/raven,is it better to place turrets or use HSM instead?
On February 04 2011 12:14 thoradycus wrote: Antisocialmunky,if lets say there is an engagement in the zerg's 4th, with a ling/baneling/muta army vs my rine/raven,is it better to place turrets or use HSM instead?
I cannot really answer that. Its very situation dependent though I can say that HSM would definitely go onto the banelings. As a general rule of thumb, turrets go down before and after battle, PDD and HSM go down during battle. The way I play is to crawl in with turrets before the marines go in though. If It is that late and I'm still not dead, then I'll have like 20 ravens and hilarity ensues with HSM spam.
Like I said, it is highly situation dependent.
Hopefully I have a Third up and running because I don't want to deal with the 10 instant ultralisks on 2 base :-p.
This is where is becomes difficult. If he goes 2 base, and plants a third hatch in base to try and kill you. You're going to have to get tanks. You'll need factory units if he tries to do that sort of bust. You'll want atleast two levels of barracks/factory walls for his blings to break through.
I decided to stop trying to make this work at least for now. Because I have far bigger problems such as macro, scouting, keeping creep controlled and positioning mistakes. Until I feel comfortable with the race, I will try to play some variations of Tank/Marine. When I feel like I'm decent, I will definitely try this build again.
In any case, I wanna thank you Antisocialmonkey for creating the build and answering my boring questions
On February 05 2011 23:47 icclown wrote: Baneling Splitting Tricks with Diagrams Coming Soon - Hide Spoiler -
^^^
pissed me off
yeah I'm still checking for it once in a while. Nice thread btw. I think this style of play will become more used on the bigger maps that are supposed to be played on tournaments. It gives you more moveability
im starting to really like ravens, tho today i tried to add tanks from single factory the whole game and i must say it was better than pure MM raven, they help so greatly vs blings
On February 05 2011 23:47 icclown wrote: Baneling Splitting Tricks with Diagrams Coming Soon - Hide Spoiler -
^^^
pissed me off
Does anyone have some ideas as to what they might be? I've been doing this exclusively in TvZ for a few weeks now after seeing this thread, and I've yet to "split" banelings with ravens.
Also, thanks for the tread. My TvZ would look nothing like it does if not for it
Here's a replay of a Masters game in SEA. Please give me your thoughts on this guys, I'm still not completely sure how do you optimally use this build. What i try to do basicly is to deny the Zerg of a 3rd base and outmacro him.
On February 09 2011 18:29 Opalcard wrote: Here's a replay of a Masters game in SEA. Please give me your thoughts on this guys, I'm still not completely sure how do you optimally use this build. What i try to do basicly is to deny the Zerg of a 3rd base and outmacro him.
Trying to deny the zerg a Third Expansion on most of the current maps is pretty much what the general gameplan for me is. Sometimes you can't because the map attack lanes are just not so good for it. (Blistering Sands is 'okay' for denying a third/Long Diagonal Distances on Metal aren't so great if you are pushing the close attack lane)
I could tell you weren't very comfortable with it and didn't really know what to do with the Ravens. So here are some things you might want to do: 1) If you go Ravens you need to get energy atleast. If you don't then the Ravens need to sit around too long for energy. You should also consider HSM since Zerg armies generally do not have AA and nuking baneling clumps is quite delicious. Also, it is quite good as a deterrent vs Muta unless the Muta dive in. If they dive in then you can nuke them quite easily. 2) I would personally keep ravens with my army to support your pushes (turret crawl). Turret crawling is a lot like the bunker crawling you did except faster. You can do the thing where you have your ravens operating separately but I find it really risky. It just depends on if you want to do a strong push or do harassment 3) Given the way you play, you should do the variant where you get tanks and medivacs while making Ravens out of only one port. Its more suited for slower styles of play and seems to fair much better against more competent zergs. You can look at KME's replays to get an idea how this is done. Get medivac energy since you won't be pumping out of a reactor port. Its slower and feels more standard. It is basically like standard marine/tank without as many tanks.
Hope that helps. Don't forget to repair your Pforts.
To be honest I have never considered doing a turret crawl. I've always assumed the Ravens' role were to simply harass the base/take down key tech structures. The reason I did a turret crawl was because of the map Scrap Station. The 2nd expo is at the centre of the map so I just guessed that having bunkers there would be a good investment anyways.
As for tanks, I can't seem to get enough resources to support a constant tank production as I'm already struggling with just Ravens, Medivacs, Marines and double upgrades.
Again, appreciate the advises, will take them into consideration for future games.
Since I'm new to TL, I don't really know if I can post this replay here. It's me against a terran, I'd like to know what could I have done. I have encounter a mass raven use.
On February 07 2011 04:15 PredY wrote: im starting to really like ravens, tho today i tried to add tanks from single factory the whole game and i must say it was better than pure MM raven, they help so greatly vs blings
Yeah i've noticed that 1 fact making tanks and 1 star-port making Ravens with Medic-marine Support is really good in the mid to l8 game. The Raven really helps tame the Muta ball without having to go Thor. Also if you get a cloud you can spam HSM like a mad man an kill his whole army. This style feels very BW esq where Terran you add Sci's.
As for Marine-Raven it is more rewarding if you have killer micro similar to SK Terran. With MMR you have to be able to Marine Split and have sick control with your Raven. Multi Tasking is also essential, attacking and dropping all over the map. MMR is also more Mobile then MMTR.
I want to experiment with Hellions first with a 2nd factory for Tanks. A large reactored blue Hellion ball basically forces roaches which is guarantee gas usage by zerg (unlike bling). Another plus is you will be able to get something to contest map control after ling speed. Then you swap to tanks later on to counter infestors.
So I have read through this thread and bit, and haven't found anyone saying what a legitimate strategy for zerg to combat this. So I have to ask as I have been utterly destroyed by this build a few times, what as a zerg player can I do to fight this?
I really want to get good with this style, I'm switching to Terran for at least a while, anyone have any VODs or replays that are more recent/relevant than the ones in the OP or know any players who have used this before in a high level tourny?
HSM doesn't work past a certain level in tvz anymore; all the HSM based strategies died out after the nerf in beta. that leaves mass ravens to fight hydras, which no one ever uses in zvt, and mutas, where your gas is better spent on tanks and thors to be able to actually kill anything.
On April 18 2011 05:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I really want to get good with this style, I'm switching to Terran for at least a while, anyone have any VODs or replays that are more recent/relevant than the ones in the OP or know any players who have used this before in a high level tourny?
You should try one of the mass marine based builds like the marine/medivac build if you are bouncing around everything. This build will get you far but it won't work that well at the top. However, the FE openings are still quite valid, mass marine + X builds are still strong when played properly, and mass Ravens spamming turrets will still win games.
LZgamer on Mr.Bitter's 12 week with the pros has a good episode detailing the 'in your face with marine' builds.
On April 18 2011 05:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I really want to get good with this style, I'm switching to Terran for at least a while, anyone have any VODs or replays that are more recent/relevant than the ones in the OP or know any players who have used this before in a high level tourny?
You should try one of the mass marine based builds like the marine/medivac build if you are bouncing around everything. This build will get you far but it won't work that well at the top. However, the FE openings are still quite valid, mass marine + X builds are still strong when played properly, and mass Ravens spamming turrets will still win games.
LZgamer on Mr.Bitter's 12 week with the pros has a good episode detailing the 'in your face with marine' builds.
I've actually been doing a 3tank + stim timing push in tvz, and expanding behind it. Even on 2 factories I end up with a lot of gas, which lets me alternate building ravens and medivacs from 1 starport.
I end up setting up a contain outside his base with tanks + rines + missile turrets. Once I get the ravens out there I will lay down a PDD, then pull the ravens back. PDD's last 180s, 240s with upgrade, which means I can drop one on my tanks and turrets, then move the raven to safety. The PDD's are critical for preventing mutas from sniping tanks while your marines are running from banelings. It may not seem like much, but 1-2 PDD's is a massive difference from getting tanks sniped. You end up not having to build as many tanks, which means more gas for upgrades and more ravens.
On April 18 2011 09:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: @rauk
Oh, forgot about that nerf =O
@Antisocialmunky
Ok thanks xD
Darn, I was hoping this was a build I could use and get to high masters with partly due to its rareness
Well, let me put it this way: Mass raven works and the mass marine openings segway extremely nicely into it. However, you need to be able to crank out enough Ravens in such a way you don't die in the mid-game.
I think the correct way would be to do some sort of marine/tank play with emphasis on the marines which is a more Korean thing. Foreigners tend to play more static with 3 fact off 2 base (Jinro vs Idra on Terminus). A good example of this is Boxer vs Sen from TSL where Boxer had only 2 fact and was trading marines and tanks attritionally to gain position rather than trying to set up a slow crawl. So you do this right and stay in zerg's face so zerg can't muta harass you (the easiest way to counter mutas is force the mutas to defend constant pushes). Only switch to a more static and heavy tank centric force if infestors come out.
The configuration should be something like 9 rax equivalent + 2 Fact + 1 Port.
Then take a relatively fast third and add one port with a tech lab because you'll probably start running low on your mineral patches but your geysers should have a fair amount of gas. Then start massing Ravens late game and start relying on taking position with mass +2 armor, +1 range turret spam instead of only tanks (you'll still want tanks but you can cut down on tanks if you have a labrynth of turrets). You'll also want marauders to deal with ultras.
Don't let anyone fool you, you get mass ravens for mass turrets, not HSM or PDD though a PDD will nullify medium sized muta flocks and a HSM will make things run away.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up! I'll try working on this style next... after I get my TvP and TvT figured out xD
Didn't realize that little part about the foreigner vs korean style of aggression vs defense
And yeah HSM seems like it really should have a buff -.-; may be the turrets, although they are very fun, should be nerfed a bit so that HSM will be more useful xD (125 energy for 100 AOE damage isn't much unless may be you use one to kill like 30 banelings)
thanks again!
Oh and so for turrets, you use them primarily (besides harassment) like normal turrets (built by scvs) for pushing and etc.?
On April 24 2011 15:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Aw, but HSM is so fun Heheh
Ok, thanks for clearing that up! I'll try working on this style next... after I get my TvP and TvT figured out xD
Didn't realize that little part about the foreigner vs korean style of aggression vs defense
And yeah HSM seems like it really should have a buff -.-; may be the turrets, although they are very fun, should be nerfed a bit so that HSM will be more useful xD (125 energy for 100 AOE damage isn't much unless may be you use one to kill like 30 banelings)
thanks again!
Oh and so for turrets, you use them primarily (besides harassment) like normal turrets (built by scvs) for pushing and etc.?
Sorry, I did not see the reply.
Well, I saw it in Boxer vs Sen and remembered that I've seen Koreans play that way a few times before. I shouldn't say its the Korean style, that is incorrect but I've only really seen it from Koreans. Maybe someone else can correct me on that.
Yeah, the only thing HSM is actually really good at is nuking banelings and making mutas fly away.
I slow crawl turrets towards zerg. Turrets have more range than people expect (6) so you end up with interlocking auto turret fields of fire. You can throw them down on creep so you crawl your turret field towards zerg and force them to engage it. You can run marines in and out of the turret field and use the turret field to funnel units into tank splash. Turrets in minerals is also quite devastating on maps with close air distance (as in ridiculous).
Throw down PDD and HSM if they try and push break with a muta ball into your marines and tanks.
@Covenants - I'll look at that when I have some time.
Ahh yeah, I guess when you reach a "Critical" point (even 10) of Ravens the energy will replenish fast enough for you to keep like 40 turrets down at once... especially since each one lasts a few minutes xD. Ok now that I think of it, that looks entirely broken =O
Yeah your gonna need like NaDa APM to pull this off. Also the issue with the raven compared to the sci Vessel is the Speed and HSM Energy/Range. Every HSP is a suicide mission since range is 6 and you cant get away quickly. Also Each Raven is limited to 1 seeker missle even at full energy.
Raven is good though, but just adding a Thor is better.
this SK style takes way too much execution too pull off. Without tanks, marines are gonna get runned down by banelings so easily and there really isnt much we can do other than reducing the damage by splits or something. Seeker missle is one option but it just cost way too much energy, making it only a limited time.
Its a fun build but i dont think its as good as tank marine combo. However this SK style can work very very well if u go super harass style with medivacs and raven turrents very often, forcing zerg to split, with constant denying of 3rd. But this takes alot of execution to make it roflstomp zerg.
Do people really still want that thing? There's actually atleast one video one up if you search for it.
@DreamRaider. Its not one or the other. You can get tanks and then switch. When I still played a lot, zergs were bad enough that you could just shove marines at them until they died. Then they got better at dealing with 2 rax by not over building blings and using good speedling position or just blowing up your wall. So you basically have to go marine/tank, or go get a few tanks and then go marine/medivac pickup micro/drop abuse and then you get the Ravens late game unless you get a really good advantage (like killing multiple drones or the queen, his first 6 lings, and that ovie that a lot of players forget outside their their nat).
ASM, one thing that's always bothered me about MMM+Raven is the lack of late-game. Your strategy is very good early game. However, in BW, SK terran worked in late-game because vessel irradiates enabled Terran to deal with ultras / defilers. However, in SC2 there's a problem:
1. No Irradiate. HSM just ends up raping your own army. 2. Auto-turrets do not scale with ebay upgrades except building armor. So late game trying to kill ultras is like throwing pebbles at a wall. Even infested terrans benefitted from both evo chamber ups. 3. Not to mention ultras have +100 HP compared to their BW counter parts.
There are only a handful of times I got to late game in TvZ with Mass Ravens against competent zergs. These were also on the old maps like Metal, Sands, and Temple on cross positions. In fact, I have almost never gone to a full hive tech stage where Zerg was able to bank enough minerals to mass a large army of ultras except one time(where I accidentally misclicked 5 ravens over hydralisks -_-'). And even then, I was able to hold the first 200/200 push with just ravens and marines on even upgrades - not the second one though.
Usually, you don't have to worry about a mass ultra (and mass ultra with infestors, blings, and sling is the thing you have to worry most about) transition because zerg won't be able to bank money effectively. Most of the time, atleast on the old maps, the game will end at lair tech when one player successfully keeps their third base. But if you have to deal with ultras, you can mass build a ton of tech labs and spam marauders. This is why I favor extra rax over reactors.
More generally, late game with mass raven is about the number of ravens you can get in your cloud. The power of turrets doesn't scale with upgrades, it scales with the parallel build up of energy across ravens and the amount of turrets you can maintain on the map because they last so long (unlike infested terrans). Don't forget that turrets are also free HP that doesn't take bonus damage from anything except banelings.
Late game is all about taking and holding mining expansions and a large Raven cloud with a properly supported bio army can do a lot to help you achieve those ends: -Your bio is highly mobile and your ravens are not restricted by terrain. -You are able to restrict zerg's mobility with turret fields and the removal of creep. -Turrets do a huge amount of damage over time and 2-4 can take out a base, deny mining, and are quite good at killing drones. -You begin securing more and more favorable army trades due to turrets. -Ravens are 2 food but can generate an army several times that size in food so you have supply to do other things with.
Usually your killing blow in the late game is you pushing near zerg's natural and then your ravens flying into the main and throwing down a huge amount of turrets to kill all their tech.
The build is good against lesser players i found that a lot of harassment is needed in this build. so load up a lot of marines and drop them everywhere. also being able to marine split is key to this build. i found when u enter the late game u need to start making clocked banshees with ur starports and getting building armor for your ravens turrets. and my last comment make a lot of barracks and make sure all ur cc's are orbitals so u can call down more mules and get more minerals for marines.
Ive been playing this style this week and REALLY enjoying it and the earlier concerns about the lack of lategame; I feel just going into heavy ghost production is the most obvious choice. Ghosts are amazing vs all the high tech zerg units and it also ties into ASMs strat of getting many barracks instead of reactors due to the ability to go mass tech lab when the game gets to that stage. This also means all your infantry upgrades are benefitting the ghosts ofc so its not a wild tech switch. Playing MM raven ghost is just immense fun and the lower gas cost of ghosts makes it viable to play if you are being harassed alot and cant sustain >3 bases
Wouldn't it be nice if Terran could do the same thing in SCII?
Impossible. Noone will ever be at the level of FlaSh, it's not just about the race, it's about the weapon, the ultimate weapon. The level of sheer awesomeness and skill that the 'ho' possesses can't be achieved in ScII, and i say that as someone who never actively played sc:bw and only ladders on scII. I'm just rational.
This stuff doesn't work of course. you are paying 100/200(total 300) for a raven. upon making one, you are granted a turret which in strength is comparable to a slightly stronger roach.
roaches cost 75/25(total 100), and you are paying 3x times the price (opportunity cost with respect to time required to gather said resources) for the power of a single roach. of course over time ravens can accumulate energy and hope that zerg doesn't attack and then that's when ravens become supply efficient. 2 supply unit with 200 energy is like equivalent in 4-5roaches.
if you are raven spamming, zerg can do the same thing with queued up mass infested terran spam.
the whole idea is to substitute or pretend that the turret is a stalker and that the zerg wastes a tons of banes into the turret. when you make ravens you don't have enough tanks to kill banes/roaches.
i think this strategy should be dumped becomes it relies on the zerg not making roaches and instantly killing you.
Hmm seems like a quite interesting strat might practice it and try it on ladder would love to have more options than just Tank/Marine and MM against zerg :D.
On June 27 2011 12:58 getpicture wrote: This stuff doesn't work of course. you are paying 100/200(total 300) for a raven. upon making one, you are granted a turret which in strength is comparable to a slightly stronger roach.
roaches cost 75/25(total 100), and you are paying 3x times the price (opportunity cost with respect to time required to gather said resources) for the power of a single roach. of course over time ravens can accumulate energy and hope that zerg doesn't attack and then that's when ravens become supply efficient. 2 supply unit with 200 energy is like equivalent in 4-5roaches.
if you are raven spamming, zerg can do the same thing with queued up mass infested terran spam.
the whole idea is to substitute or pretend that the turret is a stalker and that the zerg wastes a tons of banes into the turret. when you make ravens you don't have enough tanks to kill banes/roaches.
i think this strategy should be dumped becomes it relies on the zerg not making roaches and instantly killing you.
Ravens have enough energy for four turrets. The equivilent firepower from a Zerg would be 4 Roaches. Thats 300/100 and 8 supply vs 100/200 and 2 supply. I guess you could lose vs Roaches if you let Zerg get a 40+ food advantage so they can trade even with Ravens. And if they attack before your Ravens get >100 energy. But thats why the strat focuses on trading armies early, and valuing Raven retention over Marine retention. And its why the OP included variations where Ravens are used in the lategame, instead of the midgame where a mass Roach push might kill you. I don't think this strat should be dumped. It might not be as good as the Marine/Tank standard, but it is a viable way to play.
I've been experimenting with this recently as a followup to a reactor hellion FE on large maps like tal'darim where my mech style isn't as effective (high diamond). I open reactor hellion FE into 2port cloaked banshees and then add on a bunch of rax and go for a lot of drops while building up my raven cloud.
Mass roach is a problem, but this is a really fun style to use and has helped my multitasking quite a bit as well.
It's quite annoying tbh, I was experimenting with 14 CC and everyoen was sayign it's not viable, then people start doing it on the GSL and then now it's viable.
Point is, don't just take everyones word for it , if it's fun to play experiment with it. because someday it'll be viable.
U can do 14 CC but you'll need to use the CC as part of a walloff otherwise you'll die to all in baneling bust. Also you'll be locked in your base oversaturated for quite a while- think xel naga caverns. Weakness of 14 CC is that you need 2 rax followup after as a minimum before getting factory to stay alive and to secure natural at a reasonable time.
Otherwise zerg will skip ling speed altogether and get a fast 3rd and then when you secure your natural the worker differential is like 15.
does this still work despite the infestor buff (and HSM nerf?)
back then you could HSM infestors but now it's range 6, and fungal is more dangerous now
i'm thinking when it gets later in the game you will have to rely on turrets a lot (slow mass turret push), since they do well against pretty much anything
Also, something i thought of that Maka used today vs Leenock. Maka was going mech, but had 5 OCs on 3 base. Now usually my third is a PF, but something came to me. The more OCs you make, obviously the more gas you save, but the more minerals you get for more CCs, which in turn can give you more bases and gas. And there's the other advantages such as being able to lift off and scanning or supply dropping.
Anyone know if getting OCs instead is worth it for this style? If you really need some defense, you can just plant a few turrets at each of your bases later in the game, since turrets last like 4 minutes or something insane like that; so I guess the question is, is making OCs to get extra minerals for extra bases enough to pay for 1 Raven? (1 raven = 4 turrets)
Edit:
I was brave enough to try this out in masters before custom games, and at rank 40 ish Masters this build worked still. I would have won the game but forgot that i needed to be careful of fungals by splitting my units, hah. But auto turrets I think are the key here late game. They are just so ridiculously strong and can kill hatcheries quickly.
Another thing i liked to do was upgrade my ship armor... it's a couple less Ravens but I think it's worth it, it helps your medivacs too which you can use to drop. I'm not sure if it's worth it thoguh, maybe just ship armor +1 so that mutalisk bounce does a lot less damage, if my ravens get caught off guard.
I recently tried this build on PTR again. The seeker missile is amazing. But when dealing with those infestors, even though they do 6 dmg less with fungal. I think the best way to utilize raven vs infestor is to select 1 at a time and cast seeker missile. Last thing you want to do is ball up your ravens to die to 2 fungals and a lot of infested
Yeah, the infestor buff kinda screwed the viability of mass marine late game so it is tough if you don't or can't play a game where you constantly apply pressure with an infinite stream of marines or similar fashion.
I'm not really sure if you can go fast mass OC, the main issue is you need to apply enough pressure so zerg can't grow uncontrolled and be able to make large numbers of their tech units you can't do that if you drop 1100 minerals on extra orbitals.
I was personally thinking about Rax->Factory->Hellion expand into elevator and then turtle into a 8 Rax, 1 Factory, Double Starport configuration. Go Medivacs, Ravens, and Upgrades. You can put down a CC while throwing down your giant amount of barracks.
As for infestors, well HSM always ate them up but its not ideal because you're trading 1 raven for 1 infestor in the short term. Turrets are pretty good against infestors. Marauder kill teams are also pretty good. I think getting cloaked banshees is a decent way of removing infestors as well as every overseer is most of an infestor that isn't being made. As always, denying creep will severely limit zerg's ability to flank so you won't be as caught off guard by surprise fungals.
With the fungal nerf, ravens (and vikings/banshee) now take 1 more fungal to kill, which is not huge but still really awesome.
The HSM buff is amazing. Now you can kill infestors and and roach/hydra without them being able to run away.
The 5 second nerf on barracks sort of sucks though, encouraging getting ad ons (in this case reactor) instead of more barracks, but barracks over reactors is still better in most cases, 5 seconds in the long run is not much.
With the seeker missile buff hopefully I can start doing this successfully against mid master level, i've only gotten it to work against high diamond to low master.
When i used to do this build, i found that I had big problems with turtling Zergs who just mass infestors, and go for a infestor ultra baneling composition late game. This strategy is actually buffed now since the Ultra build time is decreased. I suppose you can get quite a few tech labs since you skip reactors, but I still don't think it will be enough. I look forward to any reps of you getting to lategame!
Ok I've got two replays against a low masters zerg.
They're not pro or anything of course, but I think should be helpful to people to see what it might look like. I looked through a few replays given in the OP already and most of them were very unhelpful, barely using any marines at all or the zerg dying before the ravens could be built up in significant enough numbers. Plus they're pretty old
In these 2 replays I skip the 2 medivacs I usually get before Corvid Reactor finishes, and go pure MR.
vs Ling/Bling/Muta into Infestor/Ultra
Here he gets the normal ling bling muta. I lose a good number of SCVs, but am able to bounce back into the game, barely losing Ravens (if at all). The speed of Seeker Missile is insane now. Look at how fast his mutas and blings die in close range, he has pretty much no time to react. He gets a few good fungals off but thanks to the fungal nerf and to me being more careful with them (sitting them behind turrets and split up), I keep a lot of them at red health and have about 20 at the end. 20 Ravens is about a new autoturret every 4 seconds. He gets a few ultras at the end, but my turret field and mass marines spread is too much for him.
vs Roach/Corruptor
I open up with a greedy 14 CC and he goes for roaches and corruptors. I poke around and keep control of the center tower, seeing that he has mainly just slow roaches. I rally units at the tower and move forward, creating my turret field close to the front of his natural's ramp. He nydus's and counterattacks my 3rd and new 4th, but my reinforcements are able to hold them off. Eventually he loses too much, and I, with most of my Ravens alive, slowly turret push into his base.
It looks like as long as you keep good spread vs Infestors, you can deal with both Roaches and Ultras easily. A well made turret field (spread out) will stop ultralisks from killing too fast, due to marines sitting in it safely. Seeker missile does well almost anything and Roaches aren't an exception. Turret + Marine is pretty good against Roach too even due to Roaches' slow DPS, high supply (lesser lategame strength), and smaller range. And they won't be on creep usually.
It seems like the composition to "counter" or deal with Marine/Raven would be Infestor Broodlord, perhaps starting at Infestor Roach or infestor ling bling earlier on.
PDD also lasts forever, it's so awesome.
Thoughts:
Ghosts would be epic with this. If MR isn't enough lategame to deal with Infestor Broodlord ( I think it can, but it will probably be too micro intensive ) then I could see Snipe/Nuke/EMP dealing with Infestor Broodlord quite well. Snipe/EMP Infestors so Ravens can be a little safer when moving in to seeker missile the broodlords. Air units stack super easy and 2 range radius for Seeker missile is quite big. Probably not more than just a couple ghosts though, just for a couple EMPs, but maybe if you have a large enough Raven force you can start cranking Ghosts to make an extremely strong lategame spellcaster force of Ghost Raven, while throwing Marines at your opponent.
Marine Ghost itself is really good, the problem is mass mass ling bling. But with Turret/Seeker Missile support, ling bling is not a big threat. And the turrets create safety for Snipe vs Ultra/Broodlord and safety against Infestors
Been trying this out recently due to seeker missile buff. Now it completely wrecks everything that zerg can make, aside from corruptors. I'm masters and have won at least 5 games using this strat. Pretty amazing. Ravens are extremely good at shutting down both infestors and mutas, which are pretty much the only units zerg can use against terran. I recommend this strategy to terrans of any level
On September 28 2011 14:06 scarper65 wrote: Been trying this out recently due to seeker missile buff. Now it completely wrecks everything that zerg can make, aside from corruptors. I'm masters and have won at least 5 games using this strat. Pretty amazing. Ravens are extremely good at shutting down both infestors and mutas, which are pretty much the only units zerg can use against terran. I recommend this strategy to terrans of any level
Then again, corruptors are slow so you can just retreat your Ravens to your marines or retreat back to turret field :D or even just seeker missile them lol
Just wondering how high masters (skill wise, idc about points lol) are you? And what server? Could you share some replays if you have any good ones?
I am thinking that infestors using ITs combined with roaches would break the turret field rather easy. As long as the zerg is trading energy spawns for energy spawns then I would feel the zerg should come out ahead since a fungal could wreck a batch of marines but a HSM would not be that big a blow to some roaches.
I think in those replays, the zerg was wasting money sending units to take and take out the turrets when perhaps using a shitton of ITs would have been a better trade. I believe 2 ITs would kill a single turret so it would about even out energy wise.
The problem still poses for zerg on how to kill the ravens, but the best you can do is corruptors or hydras, and/or mutas if you have really good micro.
On September 28 2011 14:51 Tiamat wrote: I am thinking that infestors using ITs combined with roaches would break the turret field rather easy. As long as the zerg is trading energy spawns for energy spawns then I would feel the zerg should come out ahead since a fungal could wreck a batch of marines but a HSM would not be that big a blow to some roaches.
I think in those replays, the zerg was wasting money sending units to take and take out the turrets when perhaps using a shitton of ITs would have been a better trade. I believe 2 ITs would kill a single turret so it would about even out energy wise.
The problem still poses for zerg on how to kill the ravens, but the best you can do is corruptors or hydras, and/or mutas if you have really good micro.
True, but then again the advantage of the ravens over the infestor/roach, which I think can make raven/marine work, is that ravens fly (duh) and can go around the map and harass, while neither infestors nor roaches are very fast (at least not as fast as lings as if you were playing marine tank and did some marine drops). Also infestor roach is gas heavy, and his relative immobility will make it hard for him to defend his bases, which inhibits his gas income.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but in big numbers even if you don't have medivacs, marines trade pretty well with roaches (if we say 2 marines = 1 roach), so if infestors use IT to kill turrets (probably the best choice for zerg) then they'll have less energy for fungal too. Perhaps if you're good enough, you can easily capitalize on that by saving up energy for Ravens instead of continuously making Turrets, so that you can push in and use some seeker missile possibly or just seeker missile any infestors that may have enough fungal energy then push in.
Also another I idea I got is to mix in even just 1 banshee. Just like in TvT, where you mix 1 banshee in with your vikings, so you can pick off tanks and force him to have enough aa (air superiority in TvT case). 1 Banshee would force multiple muta/corruptor; using fungals on 1 unit really isn't worth it. And you have marines/turret/pdd for the mutas, while you can outrun the corruptors. Either way the zerg uses more gas than you do.
Anyone got this strategy to work consistently with the new patch? These are my conclusions so far from trying the strategy.
1. It is very powerful when the Zerg player does not know how to respond correctly. 2. Turrets are better than HSM in most cases since you need to pressure Zerg all the time, you cannot wait until you have 125 energy before attacking with your Ravens. 3. Corruptors really hard counter Ravens; you lose for cost even with Viking support and several point defense drones. Only if you have managed to save up 4+ HSM will Raven/Viking defeat Corruptors for cost. 4. Ultras just laugh at Ravens, Auto turrets only do 2 damage to max upgraded Ultras, HSM are almost as useless given the high energy cost just to do 100 damage. 5. It is really fun play-style, but I am not sure it works if the opponent really knows what he is doing. 6. Taking out expansions with auto turrets seems to be the strongest part of using mass Raven. The real problem is escaping back to your home base before mutas/corruptors wipe our your Ravens.
I will do more testing but please write down your experiences with using Marine/Raven against Zerg.
I have been playing a VERY heavy marine style lately quite successfully around 1000 masters. I don't put my gas into ravens though because I put all of it into getting basically the fastest possible 3/3, medivacs and ghosts.
I can't see replacing ghosts with ravens, the problem is the ravens largely fulfil the same roll as marines, they are good against mutas and for harassment but they arent really that good against infestors or brood/corruptor (except once you have a ton) and even then they are really vulnerable to some fungals.
Meanwhile a few ghosts can completely shut down infestors and a few more ghosts can totally shut down broods and you can just ignore the corruptors.
So really I think the strategy should be modified to Marine/ghost with a touch of tanks.
That's a different build, man. :p Marines with ravens and ghosts would probably be quite sick though much tougher to pull off than tanks into ghosts. Jinro used to be a micro god of 1 base Marines + Ghosts only where you snipe banelings and mutarlisku so you can even go tankless marine/ghost if you are good enough.
@Yoshi - You really should consider a fast Hi-Sec auto tracking. +1 range doesn't seem like a lot but you get a rather good bonus to space control especially for air. Treat it like +1 building weapons. If a unit spends 5 seconds attacking a turret, then its taking damage from that one turret but if that turret is covered by another turret then it takes 2x as much damage, 3x for covered by 2 etc.
Given that you put turrets 3/4 tiles apart, the +1 range can easily make it so 2-3 more turrets are firing while the front turrets are being attacked. If you put this on a grid pattern then you can see this is roughly 50% increase in damage.
I know that its not exactly the same build but I feel that the thread has changed into more of a discussion about mass marine play rather then the original build.
My ZvT is definitely mass marine centred as MM is basically all I get for the first 10-15minutes of the game. I do get a few tanks here and there but mostly I just depend on splitting and high upgrades to trade with banelings and easily deal with mutas. Mutas are basically garbage once your marines are 2/2 nevermind 3/3 so its really awesome since most zergs open mutas.
I find that ghosts are much better complement to marines for dealing with infestors then tanks and obviously they are also really helpful for destroying BL play.
I got inspired by this and tried it out vs a fellow mid-to-low EU diamond zerg. I've attached the replay.
For those of you with little time:
This was surprisingly effective, my inspiration was to drop 16 upgraded marines while massing ravens. Granted, neither my opponent, nor myself are top notch players, but I made it work for me. Its really fun to play and it probably improves your multitasking. The guy complained afterwards how he didnt know how to react, and its true; as I see it, anything but infestors gets eaten alive by this.
I researched all upgrades for the turrets and upgraded the marines heavily as well. The zerg seemed to be ahead all the time, even after a failed bling bust.
Oh, I dont play that well, so dont mind my timings, macro and such... We didnt get to the hive stage, he tried using corruptors, but failed miserably (some miscontrol on his part as well...considering that my apm is quite low and i cant spread marines i'd say we were even...)
All in all, a very fun way to play tvz (i usually mech, btw)
On October 05 2011 02:16 Antisocialmunky wrote: If that's the case, I'm curious, has anyone started to run into ultralisk re-maxes due to the build time decrease?
I think in that case, the idea would be that you should have enough Ravens to go just kill some of his bases, forcing him to be in a low econ state. If he counter attacks then you could base trade and/or force a weird stalemate (you with the advantage due to floating buildings + raven). Plus, I really do think that 10 marines is good enough for 1 ultralisk. 10 marines is 4 more supply than 1 ultralisk, but it's unlikely you'll be engaging in maxed food since you want to keep pressure while massing up more ravens and marines do worse in bigger numbers.
Also one big benefit of Ravens over ghosts is that unlike ghosts, obviously, Ravens can fly. Meaning they are safe from banelings. With ghosts you might get caught off guard or surrounded and suddenly all your ghosts die. Also, obviously, you can harass with Ravens without medivacs but you would need them for marine/ghost.
Also, in large numbers (late game), it is much easier to use Ravens to put down PDD or mass seeker missile or even turret than to try to mass snipe with ghosts.
I can't believe it's almost been a year since you posted this thread ASM! That raven buff excited me but i haven't tried this build for quite a while. I'll watch those replays Yoshi posted and see if I can come up with any success. Adding ghosts sounds like a good plan, we've seen how insane they are in TvZ with good micro.
Mass marine is still my favorite thing in the world
On September 24 2011 05:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Ok I've got two replays against a low masters zerg.
They're not pro or anything of course, but I think should be helpful to people to see what it might look like. I looked through a few replays given in the OP already and most of them were very unhelpful, barely using any marines at all or the zerg dying before the ravens could be built up in significant enough numbers. Plus they're pretty old
In these 2 replays I skip the 2 medivacs I usually get before Corvid Reactor finishes, and go pure MR.
vs Ling/Bling/Muta into Infestor/Ultra
Here he gets the normal ling bling muta. I lose a good number of SCVs, but am able to bounce back into the game, barely losing Ravens (if at all). The speed of Seeker Missile is insane now. Look at how fast his mutas and blings die in close range, he has pretty much no time to react. He gets a few good fungals off but thanks to the fungal nerf and to me being more careful with them (sitting them behind turrets and split up), I keep a lot of them at red health and have about 20 at the end. 20 Ravens is about a new autoturret every 4 seconds. He gets a few ultras at the end, but my turret field and mass marines spread is too much for him.
vs Roach/Corruptor
I open up with a greedy 14 CC and he goes for roaches and corruptors. I poke around and keep control of the center tower, seeing that he has mainly just slow roaches. I rally units at the tower and move forward, creating my turret field close to the front of his natural's ramp. He nydus's and counterattacks my 3rd and new 4th, but my reinforcements are able to hold them off. Eventually he loses too much, and I, with most of my Ravens alive, slowly turret push into his base.
It looks like as long as you keep good spread vs Infestors, you can deal with both Roaches and Ultras easily. A well made turret field (spread out) will stop ultralisks from killing too fast, due to marines sitting in it safely. Seeker missile does well almost anything and Roaches aren't an exception. Turret + Marine is pretty good against Roach too even due to Roaches' slow DPS, high supply (lesser lategame strength), and smaller range. And they won't be on creep usually.
It seems like the composition to "counter" or deal with Marine/Raven would be Infestor Broodlord, perhaps starting at Infestor Roach or infestor ling bling earlier on.
PDD also lasts forever, it's so awesome.
Thoughts:
Ghosts would be epic with this. If MR isn't enough lategame to deal with Infestor Broodlord ( I think it can, but it will probably be too micro intensive ) then I could see Snipe/Nuke/EMP dealing with Infestor Broodlord quite well. Snipe/EMP Infestors so Ravens can be a little safer when moving in to seeker missile the broodlords. Air units stack super easy and 2 range radius for Seeker missile is quite big. Probably not more than just a couple ghosts though, just for a couple EMPs, but maybe if you have a large enough Raven force you can start cranking Ghosts to make an extremely strong lategame spellcaster force of Ghost Raven, while throwing Marines at your opponent.
Marine Ghost itself is really good, the problem is mass mass ling bling. But with Turret/Seeker Missile support, ling bling is not a big threat. And the turrets create safety for Snipe vs Ultra/Broodlord and safety against Infestors
2nd game I'm not convinced at all.
At one point you put 2 raven harassing his 3rd base, he has a group of 24 lings, 6 banelings outside your nat. He tried to attack your nat with lings, it was walled off, and he retreated his army. At that point he had 1.5k / 1.5k. He could have easily morphed all the zerglings into baneling and obliterate your natural's infrastructure, yet he did not.
At other point, he attack with roach, forcing a lift-off on your 3rd.. He has roach inside your natural, and you had ZERO army aside from raven and producing marines. Again, he is at 1.5k / 1.5k. Can you imagine 30 baneling shows up instead?
All in all I think raven is good, but the transition in that game is not smooth at all, there are so many points he could've crushed you. He made the mistake that a lot of macro zerg make, too passive. He knows you are going for a unit that has long lasting power late game, and one that is expensive, and once the number gets high enough it will become unbearable. Compare Raven to a collosus, if you see protoss massing collosus with little defense, the best action is to rush and kill him rather than staying passive.
I do think Raven has great potential though, please PM me and we'll do some games and try to figure out a good transition. I play zerg. I could use some ZvT practice as well and I do think raven is going to be popular soon. Let me know
Well, the main transition that KME banged out was fast siege tanks which will hold a baneling ling bust with a good wall off.
As for thirds on big non-blizzard maps with BW style expo patterns, you might want to consider building a PFort and then cutting SCVs for mass OC to keep up with a zerg with more bases. Also a potential idea is getting a reactor port for medivacs.
Also once you do establish your forward position to siege zerg using auto turrets from, you can do the 'cut in cut out' thing where you send detachments to polish off the zerg's Expo. You still want to keep the main body of your force camping outside his natural though and try to bulldoze zerg down with it.
I thought this is was actually a truly viable strat, until i see you keep doing it to Low-master/high diamond players who never played against this style before.
-> You out play them anyways, and they don't know how to react.
Just played another game with this style, this time a custom against a low master zerg. I still suck quite badly and am mid diamond tho
Anyway, this time I used the 16 marine drop again, which did some good dmg, then continued producing upgraded marines, ravens and medivacs. What I like, that this way I'm extremely mobile, can easily limit creep spread, and I still think that nothing but infestors can stop this.
Dropped marines with raven and medivac support are amazing. I've attached the rep, because I'm unsure whether I won because of good marine drops...What do you guys think? Do the ravens provide good support for the money they cost?
I believe the autoturret's ability to create chokes for the marines provides excellent added value, and with upgrades the turrets stay forever. Mutas are not really an issue because of HSM. I believe at my level this is a viable way to play vs zerg, and many are surprised as they expect marine tank.
This build need a more solid way to transition into additional bases, siege tanks (pure baneling/ling will beat this if they split up banelings at all).
I think its really cool because of the tendency for zergs to get these super big muta balls up but lack of army diversity is concerning.
I also don't see you being safe after an army trade. The OP says that trading armies, while not losing ravens, is the key to winning with this build. Unfortunately zerg is gonna reinforce way faster than you can recharge energy. At that point it will be you defending 2 bases with mostly marines and maybe a handful of Auto Turrets.
This feels like a 2 base semi-allin timing attack that unless you deal some good economic damage with the ravens or completely stomp their army will fall flat on its face going into the mid/late game.
I would be interested to see if accumulating a nice ball of ravens to use as map control/anti muta would be effective, while expanding and taking over the map and transistioning into standard marine tank. HSM simply is not enough to deal with banelings even with the denying of creep.
@OIDan will check out the replays when I have time >.<
One thing that I didn't incorporate into my play (replays) is making walls with Turrets to make chokes. I just sort of slapped them all over the field as if they were tanks. Then again, making walls would mean they take more splash... but that wouldn't matter because if he sends in his blings first, I can just seeker missile right?
I think the potential for this is really good, although it might map specific. Imagine blocking off counter attack routes with turrets. With so much armor they can kill a lot of lings and are even good against the slow DPS Mutas. Maybe you could even leave a PDD at each wall.
I've been using this occasionally still but have trouble transitioning into Raven + upgrades. Then again, I never play bio so may be that is why I'm sucking. I can't get my marines to do enough damage or keep pressure, maybe I just need to split better. I could get to like level 18 or something on the marine split baneling challenge map made by Griffith, but when I'm in game it's hard to remind myself to get my left hand over to the P button, so I just box and move the marines apart... which seems to be much less efficient xD
Another opening I was thinking of was the one Gumiho showed vs Nestea (and vs Curious). He opens reactor hellion expand and banshee ASAP. With 1-2 banshees and several hellions, he slows the zerg from getting his third while staying safe (the banshees will stop any roach attack from killing you). This allows you to get your own quick third up, and he gets thors out in time for Mutas. Now, this is for mech, but we can easily transition from the reactor factory + tech lab starport into mass marine / raven. Just add a bunch of barracks. By the time mutas come out, your third will already be up and running and you may have 6 gas. Perhaps the shit ton of gas will allow you to get all your Raven upgrades really quick and thus shorten the transition, or maybe it would be even better to just make 1 extra starport (total 4 instead of 3 even though you can only support 3 on 3 base), so that you can get a couple ravens out quicker (after stockpiling gas), then get the upgrades for ravens. This way from the extra 2 ravens you get shit ton of energy. Maybe it would be best to do some calculations vs Corvid Reactor.
You get your third set up before the zerg's third will finish, so there should be a strong timing where you can hit with Marines 1/1 + Combat Shield + Stim + Ravens before he can set up his fourth. I'm thinking it would be most efficient to get Ravens (no corvid) then Durable Materials + Building Armor + Hi-Sec Autotrack + Seeker Missile.
Ahh so much to think about xD
Maybe we could test this out evan? If we both work at it we can get/make some good replays efficiently, trying out different things from both the zerg and terran side.
Also, the fact that you said you weren't convinced only for one of the games is cool. I haven't seen the replays yet but I'm pretty sure he made some big mistakes, it felt like he should have had a lot more. But if you didn't mention anything the first game then do you think the replay is decent or did you just not comment xD
Edit: Holy fuck 10 more posts until I hit 4000. I wonder what I should do with it.
Haha you guys are making me miss the good old days of marine/raven, im gonna try out this hellion/banshee opening, I would assume you want to start marine upgrades also asap since mass marines is the backbone of the strategy right.
You can do ridiculous funnels. The most powerful of which is using medivacs with turrets to auto turret the top of the ramp so your marines can kill zerg's main undisturbed.
I've tried a few marine/hellion openings but they feel vulnerable to banelings since your whole composition is light. Hellion->Port would probably work quite well but its somewhat weak on smaller maps where Zerg can just decide to bulldoze your and kill you off 2 base aggression. But I suppose you would in turn be able to 2 rax bunker on those maps. Post some reps. :}
There's another opening that I saw used by Predy which is Marine/Tank/Raven where you build and keep 2-4 and switch to medivacs. So its basically a standard opening that diverges at your port. You use your Ravens to throw down PDDs so your tanks can't be picked off immediately. The PDD holds off the mutas (2-3 volleys) long enough for your marines to get into position.
You could probably throw down another port for double medivac production and then lab it when you get 6 gas.
Also Corvid is much better than durable materials. I just make a round of medivacs while researching it.
On October 06 2011 12:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: You can do ridiculous funnels. The most powerful of which is using medivacs with turrets to auto turret the top of the ramp so your marines can kill zerg's main undisturbed.
I've tried a few marine/hellion openings but they feel vulnerable to banelings since your whole composition is light. Hellion->Port would probably work quite well but its somewhat weak on smaller maps where Zerg can just decide to bulldoze your and kill you off 2 base aggression. But I suppose you would in turn be able to 2 rax bunker on those maps. Post some reps. :}
There's another opening that I saw used by Predy which is Marine/Tank/Raven where you build and keep 2-4 and switch to medivacs. So its basically a standard opening that diverges at your port. You use your Ravens to throw down PDDs so your tanks can't be picked off immediately. The PDD holds off the mutas (2-3 volleys) long enough for your marines to get into position.
You could probably throw down another port for double medivac production and then lab it when you get 6 gas.
Also Corvid is much better than durable materials. I just make a round of medivacs while researching it.
I used to do that, build 2 starports + tech lab on factory, then change into 1 tech-starport and 1 starport, make 2 medivacs and research corvid while factory makes 2nd tech lab. But if you do some general calculations you'll see that in the long long run, making those 2 medivacs instead of 1 raven is like 300 energy difference in 10 minutes (20 minute ish game), 600 energy difference in in a 30 minute ish game, etc. Each raven cut causes you to lose a lot of potential energy. Then again, that's like 1800 HP healed from 2 medivacs after 10 minutes but still that's like 2 seeker missiles which can kill like 25 banelings vs 38 marines, and also enough for 1 turret. Cost wise, it seems it would actually be more worth it to get the Raven.
It does seem like it can't hurt though to go with Marine Tank and then transition instead of finding a way to spit out ravens asap.
This seems like a really fragile mix of units, especially as soon as zerg has anti-air + AOE. Also you say that this is the direct counter to fast 3rd muta/ling/baneling, but I feel like if you don't hit the timings spot on, you're going to end up being ripped to shreds. Also, be prepared to die to agressive zergs.
On October 06 2011 14:10 SwitchAUS wrote: This seems like a really fragile mix of units, especially as soon as zerg has anti-air + AOE. Also you say that this is the direct counter to fast 3rd muta/ling/baneling, but I feel like if you don't hit the timings spot on, you're going to end up being ripped to shreds. Also, be prepared to die to agressive zergs.
Turrets are very expendable, ignore fungals, can't be targeted by Corruptors, do well against Mutas, and are not fragile at all . Hydralisks are weak to seeker missile / marines.
This seems like a really fragile mix of units, especially as soon as zerg has anti-air + AOE. Also you say that this is the direct counter to fast 3rd muta/ling/baneling, but I feel like if you don't hit the timings spot on, you're going to end up being ripped to shreds. Also, be prepared to die to agressive zergs.
I open with a 2 medivac drop with 16 upgraded marines, and have a bunker or bunkers at the natural. The drop will punish greedy zergs, and leave u even with the others (at least that's what the guy said whom I got this build from, its somewhere here in the forum). Then I start making ravens and try to harass. Taking a third is sometimes difficult...I havent found it so fragile actually, but some have suggested that this drop build will only work up to a certain level.
On October 06 2011 14:10 SwitchAUS wrote: This seems like a really fragile mix of units, especially as soon as zerg has anti-air + AOE. Also you say that this is the direct counter to fast 3rd muta/ling/baneling, but I feel like if you don't hit the timings spot on, you're going to end up being ripped to shreds. Also, be prepared to die to agressive zergs.
It's more than a year old lol. Back then nobody knew what the infestor did (and it didn't do much.)
Been keeping an eye on this thread a long time. Decided to give this another try now that I have more free time again since the Raven is my favorite unit. I tried a couple of games but lost most (mid Platinum). The problem seems to be the amount of multitasking. I am just not up to it (yet?). It is a hell lot of fun though when you land your Seeker missiles.
Will try some builds that were suggested here and see with what I am most comforable with. If nothing helps, I'll go back to 2v2 or 3v3 where my Raven play seems to have some effect... :p
Very interesting replays Yoshi Kirishima. I have been looking for a viable build recently for TvZ that doesn't use tanks (I don't like static play). Been playing around with a marauder hellion ghost (for mass shift snipe) build that I created but this looks like it is more viable more of the time. I'm not sure how well this would fair vs a harras heavy zerg build... sending a lone raven to multiple places to drop some auto turrets and run away might be enough to keep them in their base though. I'm gonna have to try this out!
Yoshi and I have played some games, he said he'll post the replays at some point, they're pretty hilarious hahaha. Just wait until he gets around to post them I think.
As we have seen these mass marine styles develop over time, I think the question comes down to: are ravens the best thing you can build to support it? Compared to more medivacs, or whatever else all that gas (and it's a lot) can be redirected into, including more minerals for more marines, are ravens the best option?
I suppose the timing windows you open yourself up to should be considered too, but I have reasonable faith in constant marine pressure to survive with proper micro and bunker usage in case of all-ins.
I'm not arguing against ravens, i love ravens. But pure marine/medivac is lean and relentless with little tension between upgrades and tech in terms of gas allocation. I guess what I want to quantify is exactly what ravens bring to the table for a cost-benefit analysis.
Auto-turrets, seeker missile, pdd, detection, mobility. These complement marines in some ways but do they shore up weaknesses or complement strengths better than the opportunity costs? I'm really not sure one way or the other.
I think I kinda left some final words in this thread last year right before the infestor patch by saying something along the lines of 'Massive Raven Ball = great late game thing, try a more standard mid-game and ease into it.'
This is because its not necessarily a stable mid-game. A quick transition really isn't that viable at the top unless you face someone who is completely unprepared against it. That being said, if you can accumulate a raven ball of about 8-10 of them then auto turret and supporting abilities make it snow ball out of control vs zerg. But to get there takes being clever or much better than your opponent.
Doesn't stop it from being ridiculously fun to execute.
I wanted to do something special with my 4000th post. I had some ideas or threads to post it in. I decided to just spend my 4000th, 4001st, and 4002nd post in 3 nice threads. First is Touhou thread. 2nd is a thread talking about music/starcraft2, similarities, and how to practice. Third is here. I can't resist not posting on TL so long xD
We had some epic games (evan). They weren't great and i wasn't able to figure out a nice build order before I even played, but some of the things we did can be looked at and learned from. Micro, management, priorities, etc.
Also Senorcuidado. When I approach this style, I put my emphasis on the Ravens. Rather, the marines are the support unit. Whether this is good or not is the question I guess. However in my games -- either evan was trying this style out or it's just the way he plays -- putting priority in my ravens seemed like a good idea. He kept busting me and i kept trading my Marines. I guess you could say this follows the idea that marines can trade efficiently, but keep in mind my wall would die all the time too xD. But in one game I had so many Ravens i moved out and killed him (he had quite a lot of bases and more econ than me, it's not like he was all-in busting). Then again, banelings are efficient at killing buildings, so I guess if we were fighting in the middle of the map rather than bust vs defense, I would have more advantage. If this is true then it does seem more worth it to focus on bigger army battles unlike small army battles if you were going pure marine.
About the midgame antisocialmunky. Idk if you've seen it but have you seen WCG Nestea vs Gumiho game 3? I suggest it. He uses that hellion/banshee build I was talking about that gets you up on 3 bases before the zerg's and therefore lets you to tech up and do whatever transition build you want ( you don't get cloak or blue flame and your ad ons can be used elsewhere, so you're not investing anything other than to get your econ up by gaining map control and harassing/containing with your hellion/banshee ). With this build your 3rd finishes at about 9:10. So early, and you're safe (at least you won't straight out die) to busts. During this time you can easily transition ( completely switch ) to mass Ravens, since the hellions/banshee allow you time for this. I think this has a lot of potential. I know I mentioned this idea earlier but now I have a new idea. Instead of engaging in small battles to trade marines, I think it might be better to get a huge fucking force. Idk the timing, I think maybe a push at 11 would be good, right before infestors come out while you still get good mining from your third. I think this should be enough time to get out 8ish Ravens out, as well as Corvid Reactor, Durable Materials (can be skipped if it will not fit into the build), Seeker Missile, as well as Building Armor, Hi-Sec Auto Track, and +1/+1, Combat Shield, and Stim for about 50 marines out. This is about 60 supply army, 120 ish supply total. To hit with this kind of army before Infestors I think would be stupidly strong. And by stupidly I mean it would work, or hopefully, it would be insanely fun and strong. It looks like a SHIT FUCK ton of stuff to get, but doing rough calculations now, it seems you will definitely have enough. Finding an efficient build order is the problem (maybe i should try those build order programs, but can't find a good one for terran).
Note: If it is not enough time, you can instead move out at 11 to make turrets etc, while timing some of your upgrades/ravens to finish about 1 minute later when infestors pop instead (like the ones for turrets), so that you will still be ready if he tries to break a contain/push.
But if that were to work, then I would think that either the hellion/banshee opening is OP, pros haven't found out how to deal with it better yet, or Ravens are OP and will be nerfed (unlikely).
Reason for why I think a bigger army is better than smaller; because of this opening, you have a shit ton of econ and don't have to worry about weakpoints in your build such as while you're teching up. Also, since my goal is to focus on the Ravens, I think it is stronger to focus on the stronger late-game power of the Ravens, as well as their strength the larger the number of them you have (spellcasters are all stupidly strong the more you have), rather than the strength of the marines. When you think about it, if you trade over and over with marines, and go with the approach to try to mass up Ravens in the meantime, your marines should just get stomped; it's 2 lings per marine, and in small numbers zerg should be able to win very easily with a good (not lazy) surround. If not, he can just go mass roach and not worry about the surface area being too small and losing crazy numbers of lings. Now the idea is that in 200/200, your army will be much stronger since spellcasters are all so food efficient, and the weakness of your marines (which is that they're generally weaker the bigger the battle due to AOE etc. and it being hard to micro them) is significantly reduced thanks to turret fields, turret walls, HSM getting rid of AOE (banelings), turrets keeping you save vs Ravens, and Ravens' ability to fly around to just fuck up the zerg's economy really quickly. It is so late now but I will upload those replays vs evan tomorrow (in about 11 hours from now), where I think they show some strengths of this strategy that, if all these strengths are utilized correctly like in the hands of a better player, it can be a really strong, legit strategy.
Edit: I like blocks of text that may be confusing stupid or not make sense sorry.
ah i sent a pm by accident as I thought you forgot about the replay.
Here are some of my comments, most of it is from a zerg's point of view:
The time I lost to Yoshi was when I failed to deny his 3rd. As you can imagine raven needs gas, so denying 3rd is crucial.
The transition is still rather difficult for terran. As a zerg you should be watching for terran's transitions. Any time a transition has "kinks" in it, i.e. where he is weak for 2 minutes during the transition, you MUST attack and badly hurt him.
For Raven the weak point is when you start to produce Ravens. At that point you have no energy nor enough Raven for it to be substantial, and it's very very dangerous period. I would not suggest taking a 3rd at this time, because your 3rd will get denied if zerg knows of this weakness.
Then, it feels like logical to stay on 2 base, get a decent number of raven out, and then take a 3rd. However, the dillema is how can you get a decent number of ravens w/o a 3rd.
I feel raven harass is still good, even at small numbers. There is a fear of getting sniped but just like dropships, you must still use the early Ravens. Of the game I won I NEVER let him use his raven energy on MY base until the very end. Most of his raven's energy are spent spamming turrets just to stay alive from 40 banelings rolling in with 100 zerglings following.
So general advise for zerg fighting Raven: 1) Get good econ up and wait for the Raven transition, you'll see a raven or sac overlord 2) Once you notice the transition, focus on denying 3rd and bust his nat whenever possible. Your ground army WILL be more powerful, hurt the terran and make him throw turret to defend HIS base. 3) Expand expand expand. Get used to evacuate expansion when Raven come out. When they throw turrets down at ur expansion it's pretty much not cost efficient to clean them up. Make hatches, don't need to saturate but if one of ur base gets pooped on by turrets relocate your drones.
With that being said, if terran CAN get to 3 base along with 8+ raven flying around it's pretty much fucked for zerg. There's no scourge, and Raven is just as good as science vessel, if not even better at some aspect. I've theory NP and use his raven to blow himself up might be good, try to fungal a group of raven, quickly NP, and throw down as many missils as you can.
If you can get that sort of hellion banshee marine raven to work out, that would be good. I think you really need 3 base to do a solid transition. You need 3 ports.
You know there is a more standard thing that I never got around to exploring and that's the 200 food busting nature of the auto turret (especially when they last 4 minutes). Basically the idea would be to play standard marine/tank and start switching to raven at ~180 food and 3/4 bases with all your standard infantry upgrades done. You don't actually have to do something crazy as casters aren't in the need for fast upgrades. So you put down 3/4 ports and crank ravens and marines and ~2 fact tanks only. This may be especially useful timing as zerg thirds to fifths usually are protected more by threat than spines and spores.
An auto turret is ~2 food and you can horde a fair amount of them and durable materials make them last forever. So you can have a 200/200 army that can control 250+ food of space.
Here's the replays! (finally, sorry) Only have 2 though Map is Antiga Shipyard. Games are about 30 minutes in game.
These are replays of the hellion/banshee/fast3rd opener. I did not figure out the general timings of the upgrades and etc. though so this is sort of just improvisation.
How the games went: Though my 3rd is never stable and I keep getting busted. However in both of these I prioritize Ravens, and you can see how strong they can be even though I have not much econ. If only I micro'd better, for example make turret walls instead of turret fields at my nat, or made barracks at the ramp instead of depots to wall vs the busts, if I walled off my third with turrets, etc. And I could have definitely moved out small packs of Ravens to kill hatches and etc. If he gets mutas then 3 packs of ~5 ravens would still be really strong, can seeker missile or turret or PDD and mutas would be no problem to deal with; mutas are pretty expensive after all, even if you lose a couple Ravens. The high DPS of seeker missile/Turret and the buffer of PDD would be really inefficient for any zerg to engage Ravens with Mutalisks especially in small numbers.
Also evan, that is pretty good advice/idea. So I guess the higher the base:map-size ratio is, the weaker this is (more hatches to have to kill/deny). But about #2: I wonder if, generally, base trading would be a good option once you have enough Ravens. If a Zerg cannot get enough AA or anti-raven out and the map isn't too big, and you move out with like 30 ravens, perhaps you could win. I wonder if it would be crucial for a Zerg to keep an eye on the Ravens' energy to make sure he is not planning something like that.
OMG I got a good replay of the idea I was thinking of. He didn't go infestors but at least it shows it does well against Muta (well duh, both marines and ravens rape muta).
I lost a few SCVs unfortunately due to sloppiness, so I didn't hit at 12 but I wonder if it is really even that important to hit so early. Plus you can always just scan to see his infestor timing. Perhaps I can hit at 14 (like in the replay, move out at 13 something) and simply keep my Ravens a bit ahead of my marines, split up. If I see infestors I'll slop down some turrets. This way he can't run in and fungal my marines while I'm going to his base. If mutas/ling/bling rush in while I put up my turrets, I can retreat the ravens to the marines and the turrets/seeker missile will deal with the ling/bling.
Look at how strong 3 bases is. Holy shit. I was pumping marines like a fucker. No fourth. So many Ravens. So many turrets. Holy fuck I think this push is strong! :D
He was completely raped. I even lost almost all my first marine force (5 marines red HP left) to his banelings due to bad micro (idk if my seeker missile even hit) but I was able to pump so many marines. I kept making new turret walls really quickly (so much energy!) and that really helped vs his lings. The lings would target the turrets first (only if they're in front?) and I could easily seal off his ramp and go around and harass (didn't split up ravens much to harass but could have).
I made so many barracks, perhaps I should have built them in the middle of the map, to create a sort of choke point, which would help me if I were to take a fourth (take the gold). Obviously I dont want reactors because I need gas for ravens. I could even float them around if i clear some creep and push closer.
I know it says he's in Diamond league but he's about 500-1000 masters. His strength is macro; he has a high APM.
1200 pt mid-high masters terran here and I watched the replays you posted... seems very strong! I actually love the hellion/banshee opening and transition, as long as you maintain map control and continuously harass it allows you to safely expand. Also, I love the corvid reactor upgrade early on, that way ravens have fairly high energy early on (enough for several turrets and pdd each). However, I do believe there is a window that the zerg can attack via baneling bust or roach that might put the terran significantly behind if it is successful, as hellion and banshee do take up the space of marines and bunkers, so in order for the transition to be successful I made a note that it is ESSENTIAL to keep the banshees and at least 2 hellions alive, or else any zerg all in will be extremely hard to hold.
On to the transition if you can make it to the mid/late game for the marine/raven composition. With careful turret placement, continuous harass and constant army trading with the zerg (mineral vs. gas units), I think the strategy is still extremely strong especially with the speed buff to hunter seeker missile. Standard ling/bane/muta should be shut down as the OP said with pdd, turret walls, and hunter seeker. However, if the zerg does tech to infestor or ultra, there is a significant problem, as ravens tend to clump and while its easy to say its needed to split/spread the ravens, its so hard when your both microing your marines and dropping turrets/pdd/HSM. In addition, I've found it fairly easy for the zerg to safely take lots of bases due to the lack of medivac drops (gas investment in ravens). Since mutas will be more or less shut down and zerg will most definitely tech to infestor, I'm thinking that drops via a few medivacs is absolutely needed in order to keep harass up. Its way to risky to fly some ravens to autoturret harass, as losing ravens to fungal will almost give you the autolose.
So my questions are: is there a way to work in 3 starports, with 2 pumping ravens and 1 naked starport pumping medivacs for pure harass purposes? And to counter hive tech, how many bases should we have to be able to pump ravens AND ghosts, as ghosts are almost critical to getting rid of mass ultras if harass fails? Sorry for long post, I really want this strategy to work since I'm bored of marine tank
Have been watching some of your replays. I am mid Platinum atm. What I noticed is that you build your additional barracks pretty late. Especially in the last game you posted. You lost 2 Ravens to the Muta harass and quite a lot of energy for defense. What if you build your barracks earlier and use the marines to defend against mutas? You probabley can't support 3 port Raven and upgrades if you take the barracks earlier but you would be a bit more safe.
I am going to the ladder right now trying your build though myself and see how I do.
1200 pt mid-high masters terran here and I watched the replays you posted... seems very strong! I actually love the hellion/banshee opening and transition, as long as you maintain map control and continuously harass it allows you to safely expand. Also, I love the corvid reactor upgrade early on, that way ravens have fairly high energy early on (enough for several turrets and pdd each). However, I do believe there is a window that the zerg can attack via baneling bust or roach that might put the terran significantly behind if it is successful, as hellion and banshee do take up the space of marines and bunkers, so in order for the transition to be successful I made a note that it is ESSENTIAL to keep the banshees and at least 2 hellions alive, or else any zerg all in will be extremely hard to hold.
On to the transition if you can make it to the mid/late game for the marine/raven composition. With careful turret placement, continuous harass and constant army trading with the zerg (mineral vs. gas units), I think the strategy is still extremely strong especially with the speed buff to hunter seeker missile. Standard ling/bane/muta should be shut down as the OP said with pdd, turret walls, and hunter seeker. However, if the zerg does tech to infestor or ultra, there is a significant problem, as ravens tend to clump and while its easy to say its needed to split/spread the ravens, its so hard when your both microing your marines and dropping turrets/pdd/HSM. In addition, I've found it fairly easy for the zerg to safely take lots of bases due to the lack of medivac drops (gas investment in ravens). Since mutas will be more or less shut down and zerg will most definitely tech to infestor, I'm thinking that drops via a few medivacs is absolutely needed in order to keep harass up. Its way to risky to fly some ravens to autoturret harass, as losing ravens to fungal will almost give you the autolose.
So my questions are: is there a way to work in 3 starports, with 2 pumping ravens and 1 naked starport pumping medivacs for pure harass purposes? And to counter hive tech, how many bases should we have to be able to pump ravens AND ghosts, as ghosts are almost critical to getting rid of mass ultras if harass fails? Sorry for long post, I really want this strategy to work since I'm bored of marine tank
Yeah i forgot to mention that. The first part you said is very important, I was greedy and lost my hellions/banshees stupidly. But just imagine if the banshee/hellions were still alive xD. Also I found with this hellion/banshee opener that 1 banshee is barely enough; I may lose a lot of SCVs etc, but I will still live. 2 is probably significantly better, but I wanted to be a bit risky and fit in an extra Raven instead. Regarding this, I am trying to figure out whether it's better to focus on stopping him from getting his third, or to cut down on the hellion/banshee and get a faster third myself. In Gumiho's game (his build) vs Nestea, he actually got Blue Flame so that a bust could be better defended. Obviously I am a bit more vulnerable with this greedy build.
I see what you mean, when I think of it I can't imagine Ravens harassing well if he keeps 1-2 infestors at each base even if they're split all over. A fungal + a couple IT would kill a Raven, even if the raven drops a few turrets before it dies. The ITs should be able to kill the ATs roughly equally. I guess this goes with an idea I mentioned earlier; the ideal map would be a big map but with not too many bases. The larger rush distance would make the 1-2 banshees at the beginning more efficient since they have more time to kill any zerg army that is coming to bust you. Less bases means the zerg can't spread out as much obviously. Ghosts are interesting; i also mentioned this a bit earlier. I was thinking ghosts are not necessary, and you could just get marauders vs Ultralisks (i think they would do well vs infestor too, since you have turrets and seeker missiles to deal with mas ling). But then again, Ghosts can use nukes to help harass as well as control space, complimenting the Ravens. Once again I think Ghosts can definitely be useful, going along with the idea that spellcasters are stupid strong in big numbers with full energy. Perhaps it would work to get Ghosts after you have "enough" Ravens, as in to a point where splitting them up and keeping track of them might be too annoying, but idk. I think though, since Marine and Raven is only 2 units, you can eventually split your Ravens into 3 total control groups (I have 4 hotkeys for army), or perhaps 1 control group for all ravens and 2 more for half and half, or 2 more for smaller harassment groups.
I would like not to use Medivacs but perhaps it will be necessary. I was thinking of an idea; making proxy racks and landing them on ramps to the zerg's bases, behind their mineral lines, etc. Also I do think that with good use of turrets and marine micro, you can deal with Ultralisks easily. If you secure a strong enough position, meaning you get up the full 4 turrets per Raven and keep that going forever, the Ultralisks will be raped with spread out turrets (not in walls). I had a replay where he got Ultralisks, though it wasn't that late game and it wasn't that many. Then again, muta/ling/bling won't be a problem. Meaning he will probably get roach infestor or some sort to deal with this. If he does, it means he's getting + ranged attack upgrades, not melee upgrades. So you should have even a little more than the slight upgrade advantage Terran usually has.
I think it is crucial that we realize that there are many ways to exploit the options zerg has vs this composition. If he goes Ultralisks, that means upgrade disadvantage for him, and less mobility to defend his bases. It also means he won't have enough gas for a ton of Infestors; you can easily go around the map and kill hatches. If he goes Infestors, our harassment is shut down, but then again he has less infestors ready if we just straight up turret marine push to kill him. If he goes Roaches, they do OK vs marine turret but it also means less mobility for him to defend his bases, though Roaches are ranged and will be more efficient than lings fighting walls. Hydralisks will just get seeker missiled and are once again slow. Corruptors can kill Ravens but it's a lot of gas and they die easily to turrets + PDD + Marines. The only units that can harm Ravens efficiently are Infestors (and well, queens perhaps). And I think the correct response to that kind of fight would be just to focus on 1 big push (only harass if he doesn't have infestors sitting at each expansion). If you guys think this sounds right, and if we can get a replay that shows that infestors/ultralisks can be dealt with without medivacs or ghosts, then I think Marine/Raven can be commonly agreed upon to be "viable" against anything the Zerg does, like Marine Tank Medivac works well against anything. And if so, that would be super awesome because you only use 2 units instead of 3.
On October 09 2011 06:36 aklambda wrote: @Yoshi
Have been watching some of your replays. I am mid Platinum atm. What I noticed is that you build your additional barracks pretty late. Especially in the last game you posted. You lost 2 Ravens to the Muta harass and quite a lot of energy for defense. What if you build your barracks earlier and use the marines to defend against mutas? You probabley can't support 3 port Raven and upgrades if you take the barracks earlier but you would be a bit more safe.
I am going to the ladder right now trying your build though myself and see how I do.
Maybe I somehow manage to win one too :p
Yup, edited my post haha, forgot to mention that... it was sloppy like you say. I don't use any bio much except for this Marine/Raven so I forget to get barracks xD. I think you're right I definitely should have had barracks earlier, even if I was ready to throw down turrets it would be preferable to save it all for the push. Did i really lose 2 ravens? ouch =O that is like 450 energy wasted by the time I push . Or actually, since I had ebays up, I could have just built 1 turret at each base too.
There will probably much refining ahead haha. Good luck
Just lost to Muta harass even though I build my barracks early... just bad positioning on my part. Lost 2 Ravens and a lot of energy and ultimately the game. If I had the energy from the defense I could have seeker missiled his Banelings later on. Anyway, onward to the next game!!
How do you survive to constant harassment/trade when a zerg is massing lings/bases/upgrade à la Stephano ? Because on the few games I played (against top masters), they couldn't take a third.
I've tried this build once, doing a Reactor hellion opener into, I have no real solid opening for it, But the game I had, If my opponent didnt unpause the game and be a dick, I think I could of won, This build is really mobile and can push expo's well
Right now I am very successfully playing TvZ with mass marines and medivacs with very fast double ups. I can easily throw down a couple sps and transition to this once my 3rd base is up and running. Usually thats about the time that zerg is dead, but if I go to the late game I am interested to see how this could work out.
Like I said before though I am concerned that ravens are weak against the same units that marines are - I think ravens can handle infestors fine just with mass turrets, but I am still concerned about ultras. It will take some time for me to get replays of this because of the nature of my plan (use this as a late game transition).
I've just played a game where I opened up with a BC rush vs Z (supported by hellions). This allows you to get an expansion when you move out or sometime there. You hit at 8:40 ish. You can easily transition into marine/raven from here; any corruptors or mutas would be a waste.
Though of course it would depend on if you can deny the zerg from seeing what you're doing, which shouldn't be too hard (though you probably can't hide it on a map with small main like nerazim crypt).
I wonder if you need to durable materials before Seeker in your opening Yosh. You are nearly completely naked against early aggression because you end up having close to 0 units on the ground since you cut hellion production so you can get your rax up. I think that's kinda dubious since a good zerg probably could murder you with some sort of 2 base. Though I will say I think the proper timing for zerg to hit is quite awkward since it is when they will want to take their third.
You rely on your turrets so much for that type of opening that turret alive time actually matters.
Edit: Also I think you really should work on your mechanics. There are some pretty big holes I can see like no constant SCV production and pretty big supply blocks. Those are pretty basic things. You really should smooth out your play more instead of focusing on making really detailed builds. Granted you're getting busted like crazy in your reps (and rightly so) but I'm seeing quite a few problems even before that. You can only coast on the fact that making a crap ton of ravens requires only 8 SCVs on each base and that no one seems to make effective AA against you (hydras, mass infestors) for only so long. Not trying to be mean or anything but there is a fair bit of room for improvement.
Edit2: You also should try and maintain map control your your 6-8 hellions instead of suiciding them in for drones each time because a good zerg will see you do that and drone up since you don't have a strong push with hellion timings (especially with no BF). If oyu have your Hellions alive then they will have to maintain some army production or invest in a large amount of lings to push out.
On October 09 2011 22:56 Antisocialmunky wrote: I wonder if you need to durable materials before Seeker in your opening Yosh. You are nearly completely naked against early aggression because you end up having close to 0 units on the ground since you cut hellion production so you can get your rax up. I think that's kinda dubious since a good zerg probably could murder you with some sort of 2 base. Though I will say I think the proper timing for zerg to hit is quite awkward since it is when they will want to take their third.
You rely on your turrets so much for that type of opening that turret alive time actually matters.
Edit: Also I think you really should work on your mechanics. There are some pretty big holes I can see like no constant SCV production and pretty big supply blocks. Those are pretty basic things. You really should smooth out your play more instead of focusing on making really detailed builds. Granted you're getting busted like crazy in your reps (and rightly so) but I'm seeing quite a few problems even before that. You can only coast on the fact that making a crap ton of ravens requires only 8 SCVs on each base and that no one seems to make effective AA against you (hydras, mass infestors) for only so long. Not trying to be mean or anything but there is a fair bit of room for improvement.
Edit2: You also should try and maintain map control your your 6-8 hellions instead of suiciding them in for drones each time because a good zerg will see you do that and drone up since you don't have a strong push with hellion timings (especially with no BF). If oyu have your Hellions alive then they will have to maintain some army production or invest in a large amount of lings to push out.
Yep thanks, i'm aware i need to work on scv and supply block xD pretty bad i know -.-; i lose like 1000 potential minerals on average by the 10 minute mark
and i think that + not suiciding helliosn to be greedy like you said would give me more units (hellioons/banshee) to help defend vs busts, hopefully enough, going by the amount that gumiho used
Hah this is still going on? If my wife lets me play today, I'll play on a friends name to fuck around with this marine raven... I'll post the rep. I'm sure it'll be a shit fest.
I feel on a bigger map, like TDA, a 14 CC into 2 rax -> 2 gas -> 2 more rax with a defensive posture, a quick third taken with a marine medic stim + shield drop, and go into 2 port 1 reactor 1 tech lab for medic/raven/marine
Lol sounds good for TA. For smaller maps, try a defense/harassing marine/tank?/medivac and put down 2 extra ports and go 3 port mass Raven when you take a third and begin to get close to max.
Ravens only require about 3/4 upgrades that you can research concurrently (hi sec, energy, HSM?, and structure armor) so its not unfeasible for a quick swap from standard.
Also good point point about the durable materials... the increase time for seeker missile isn't too big of a deal and i can always upgrade it later after starting a turret push, usually the turrets will die anyways and they already stay up for quite a long time.
@iamjeffrey good luck hopefully you can come up with something
Btw is 15 OC still the most economical in the long run? Not 16 OC?
In team games, it's amazing except against Protoss (due to Colossi then High Templar which you can't snipe using HSM). And it automatically denies early DT aggression (or at least severely mitigates it).
The thing I really like is that you can afford to get double upgrades and start them pretty early. Also, the ability to be mobile and attack without Tanks is nice, however, your defensive ability against heavy Baneling all ins is significantly weaker unless you have a really good reaction time that only high level players really possess. There's no way you're stopping ~20 Banelings from crashing your wall around your natural.
Also, the build is REALLY easy to macro with. Extra minerals? Make SCVs, Marines, Depots, and Barracks. Extra gas? Power upgrades (and there are plenty to be had that support your army) and make Medivacs and Ravens. But I have issues with the 2 Starport concept... I really wish I could have 3 (2 Tech and 1 Reactor) so I can always have Medivacs handy as well as always having a solid Raven count (similar to always having a solid Tank count with a reasonable flow of Medivacs). If I go 2 Tech Labs, it becomes really technical on whether I should make Medivacs or Ravens. Of course, your current resources can easily dictate that you can only make Medivacs at the time, but since you're splitting production between Medivacs and Ravens, I'd like more flexibility. If you go 2 Tech Labs, you can only make 2 Medivacs at a time while making no Ravens. If you go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor, you can make 2 Medivacs at a time as well as constantly making a Raven, but you never have the option of powering Raven production. I feel if you could get 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor, you'd be in the perfect range as you could easily power either Raven or Medivac production. However, If you land good HSMs, there's not much need to really have more than 1 Raven constantly in production. But the thing is, with the mediocre range on HSM, the friendly splash on HSM, and the fact that Ravens are relatively easy to snipe, having more Ravens gives you a bit of a safety net.
And it's always nice to not have to waste Scans for Burrowed Banelings or Creep Tumors. And to check ahead, you can simply Stim a Marine and have him run as far as he can to his death. You might also want to Stim a few to check all paths that Zerg can flank you from, so you know where to position your Ravens to HSM from in order to quickly protect your Marines from Banelings.
But I also feel you can't really threaten the Zerg before the 10 minute mark like you normally could with a Tank-based build. All you have access to is a bunch of Marines, some Medivacs, and a Raven or two (I prefer to go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor in 1v1 for a steady flow of Medivacs to compliment the ~30 Marines I'll have at that point, though I get HSM later as a result). You can't really push with low energy Ravens. Auto Turrets aren't really good enough to do anything but harassing damage (they're like somewhat stronger Marines, but Marines are good when you have a LOT of them, and you won't be able to drop that many Auto Turrets). Point Defense Drone is useless except if they have Mutalisks, and they likely won't want to engage your Marine army anyway, and you have little reason to stay in 1 place anyway since you have no Tanks to slow push with. As a result, you can only really push them once you have HSM, which takes a while even with the energy upgrade. So your only real option is to drop them while sending a Marine group to their third (either double drop or 1 Medivac into the main and a group of Marines by foot). If anything, going for 3 attacks (dropping the main and natural while harassing the third by foot) is also a reasonably good idea as long as your drops don't get picked off in the air or caught early. If they do, you're down like 24 Marines and 2 Medivacs, which is essentially everything you had except a Raven. But 3 attacks that actually land, even if killing only 1 Drone each, is bound to do a lot of damage. You can basically snipe 1 Hatchery and deny a LOT of mining time if your opponent doesn't respond efficiently (even then you're guaranteed to deny a lot of mining time unless he wants to lose a ton of Drones).
I feel like, with really good control (the macro basically performs itself if you just keep checking on your upgrades), this could be a REALLY good build. Again, with REALLY good control (like Professional or GM level control).
But the biggest issue I'm having with this build is how to start it. If you open 2 Rax, a lot of the game hinges on how well your 2 Rax went and how much you committed to it because the more you commit, the later your expansion, which is a critical timing for when everything in this build starts to kick in. If you open a Hellion expand, your expansion is later than I'd like, but you do get the early Factory, map control, and the option to deny Creep Spread (which is always good, but less necessary in my opinion with this build).
I feel that opening a gasless expand (cutting the first Depot and second Marine for a faster CC) is the most idea way to open this build in terms of how to get everything pumping as quickly as possible, but we all know that isn't a realistic option in TvZ since early Zergling pressure and lack of ability to apply your own pressure are two big things that can sink you (especially combined with the fact you have no real ~9 minute timing attack). In most cases, Zerg will power their economy insanely hard, and you can't do anything about it. They get an early third base, maybe even get as far as saturate it, and don't have to really worry about any pressure from you.
So the most realistic opener would probably be the Hellion expand with 1 Rax Bunker pressure.
But the thing I REALLY hate about this build is how much of it relies on HSM. In TvZ, the only REALLY effective ability the Raven has is detection and HSM. Turrets are basically only good to harass. If I want Ravens for Turrets, I could've cut the Factory and Starports of of my build, severely reduced my gas intake, and went pure Marine Medic and have way more extra Marines than what I could've had in Auto Turrets. And Marines are more mobile than Auto Turrets. HSM NEEDS to be reduced to 75 or 100 energy cost in order for this to be anything more than maybe a late game transition. You can probably go standard Marine/Tank/Medivac and transition into this build (you can easily do visa versa), which would take out a lot of the early game problems of this build. HSM just comes out WAY too late. You're pinned to do damage through nothing but drops, which could very easily be denied with Mutalisks.
I don't care if Ravens ended up with 100 max energy, HSM NEEDS to be more available. You can't pop a Raven at around 9 minutes and say, "okay, I need to wait 50 seconds now before I can do any damage with a push". And you'll only have 2 HSMs max and you NEED to make them count.
Ravens are good (as are all casters that do outright damage though Energy), but I'd rather have Psi Storm or Fungal Growth (especially Fungal Growth, omg... Imagine Terran with a unit that had Fungal Growth) at 75 energy as opposed to a HSM at 125 energy that isn't even guaranteed to hit more than 1 unit against a good player. (And hey! High Templar and Ravens are Tier 3, while Infestors are Tier 2... I'd MUCH rather have Infestors; though almost all other units Zerg has is terrible, so Blizzard PLEASE buff Hydralisks and nerf Infestors. Oh... And buff Ravens...)
Rylai, you make alot of good points that I really agree with. Ravens just can't cut it in TvZ without allowing the zerg to get way way ahead in the early or even the mid game. You need to be following a strategy designed to hold its own before you can switch into heavy raven production and be able to reach late game where you can afford to pump out lots of raven and a billion suicidal marines in order to get up a flock with sufficient energy to use HSM without getting overrun or allowing the zerg to just get a massive economy advantage.
On October 10 2011 11:17 RyLai wrote: I find it to be a somewhat okay build.
In team games, it's amazing except against Protoss (due to Colossi then High Templar which you can't snipe using HSM). And it automatically denies early DT aggression (or at least severely mitigates it).
The thing I really like is that you can afford to get double upgrades and start them pretty early. Also, the ability to be mobile and attack without Tanks is nice, however, your defensive ability against heavy Baneling all ins is significantly weaker unless you have a really good reaction time that only high level players really possess. There's no way you're stopping ~20 Banelings from crashing your wall around your natural.
Also, the build is REALLY easy to macro with. Extra minerals? Make SCVs, Marines, Depots, and Barracks. Extra gas? Power upgrades (and there are plenty to be had that support your army) and make Medivacs and Ravens. But I have issues with the 2 Starport concept... I really wish I could have 3 (2 Tech and 1 Reactor) so I can always have Medivacs handy as well as always having a solid Raven count (similar to always having a solid Tank count with a reasonable flow of Medivacs). If I go 2 Tech Labs, it becomes really technical on whether I should make Medivacs or Ravens. Of course, your current resources can easily dictate that you can only make Medivacs at the time, but since you're splitting production between Medivacs and Ravens, I'd like more flexibility. If you go 2 Tech Labs, you can only make 2 Medivacs at a time while making no Ravens. If you go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor, you can make 2 Medivacs at a time as well as constantly making a Raven, but you never have the option of powering Raven production. I feel if you could get 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor, you'd be in the perfect range as you could easily power either Raven or Medivac production. However, If you land good HSMs, there's not much need to really have more than 1 Raven constantly in production. But the thing is, with the mediocre range on HSM, the friendly splash on HSM, and the fact that Ravens are relatively easy to snipe, having more Ravens gives you a bit of a safety net.
And it's always nice to not have to waste Scans for Burrowed Banelings or Creep Tumors. And to check ahead, you can simply Stim a Marine and have him run as far as he can to his death. You might also want to Stim a few to check all paths that Zerg can flank you from, so you know where to position your Ravens to HSM from in order to quickly protect your Marines from Banelings.
But I also feel you can't really threaten the Zerg before the 10 minute mark like you normally could with a Tank-based build. All you have access to is a bunch of Marines, some Medivacs, and a Raven or two (I prefer to go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor in 1v1 for a steady flow of Medivacs to compliment the ~30 Marines I'll have at that point, though I get HSM later as a result). You can't really push with low energy Ravens. Auto Turrets aren't really good enough to do anything but harassing damage (they're like somewhat stronger Marines, but Marines are good when you have a LOT of them, and you won't be able to drop that many Auto Turrets). Point Defense Drone is useless except if they have Mutalisks, and they likely won't want to engage your Marine army anyway, and you have little reason to stay in 1 place anyway since you have no Tanks to slow push with. As a result, you can only really push them once you have HSM, which takes a while even with the energy upgrade. So your only real option is to drop them while sending a Marine group to their third (either double drop or 1 Medivac into the main and a group of Marines by foot). If anything, going for 3 attacks (dropping the main and natural while harassing the third by foot) is also a reasonably good idea as long as your drops don't get picked off in the air or caught early. If they do, you're down like 24 Marines and 2 Medivacs, which is essentially everything you had except a Raven. But 3 attacks that actually land, even if killing only 1 Drone each, is bound to do a lot of damage. You can basically snipe 1 Hatchery and deny a LOT of mining time if your opponent doesn't respond efficiently (even then you're guaranteed to deny a lot of mining time unless he wants to lose a ton of Drones).
I feel like, with really good control (the macro basically performs itself if you just keep checking on your upgrades), this could be a REALLY good build. Again, with REALLY good control (like Professional or GM level control).
But the biggest issue I'm having with this build is how to start it. If you open 2 Rax, a lot of the game hinges on how well your 2 Rax went and how much you committed to it because the more you commit, the later your expansion, which is a critical timing for when everything in this build starts to kick in. If you open a Hellion expand, your expansion is later than I'd like, but you do get the early Factory, map control, and the option to deny Creep Spread (which is always good, but less necessary in my opinion with this build).
I feel that opening a gasless expand (cutting the first Depot and second Marine for a faster CC) is the most idea way to open this build in terms of how to get everything pumping as quickly as possible, but we all know that isn't a realistic option in TvZ since early Zergling pressure and lack of ability to apply your own pressure are two big things that can sink you (especially combined with the fact you have no real ~9 minute timing attack). In most cases, Zerg will power their economy insanely hard, and you can't do anything about it. They get an early third base, maybe even get as far as saturate it, and don't have to really worry about any pressure from you.
So the most realistic opener would probably be the Hellion expand with 1 Rax Bunker pressure.
But the thing I REALLY hate about this build is how much of it relies on HSM. In TvZ, the only REALLY effective ability the Raven has is detection and HSM. Turrets are basically only good to harass. If I want Ravens for Turrets, I could've cut the Factory and Starports of of my build, severely reduced my gas intake, and went pure Marine Medic and have way more extra Marines than what I could've had in Auto Turrets. And Marines are more mobile than Auto Turrets. HSM NEEDS to be reduced to 75 or 100 energy cost in order for this to be anything more than maybe a late game transition. You can probably go standard Marine/Tank/Medivac and transition into this build (you can easily do visa versa), which would take out a lot of the early game problems of this build. HSM just comes out WAY too late. You're pinned to do damage through nothing but drops, which could very easily be denied with Mutalisks.
I don't care if Ravens ended up with 100 max energy, HSM NEEDS to be more available. You can't pop a Raven at around 9 minutes and say, "okay, I need to wait 50 seconds now before I can do any damage with a push". And you'll only have 2 HSMs max and you NEED to make them count.
Ravens are good (as are all casters that do outright damage though Energy), but I'd rather have Psi Storm or Fungal Growth (especially Fungal Growth, omg... Imagine Terran with a unit that had Fungal Growth) at 75 energy as opposed to a HSM at 125 energy that isn't even guaranteed to hit more than 1 unit against a good player. (And hey! High Templar and Ravens are Tier 3, while Infestors are Tier 2... I'd MUCH rather have Infestors; though almost all other units Zerg has is terrible, so Blizzard PLEASE buff Hydralisks and nerf Infestors. Oh... And buff Ravens...)
Please check out some of out replays, turrets are pretty fucking useful aside from just harassing xD
On October 10 2011 11:17 RyLai wrote: I find it to be a somewhat okay build.
In team games, it's amazing except against Protoss (due to Colossi then High Templar which you can't snipe using HSM). And it automatically denies early DT aggression (or at least severely mitigates it).
The thing I really like is that you can afford to get double upgrades and start them pretty early. Also, the ability to be mobile and attack without Tanks is nice, however, your defensive ability against heavy Baneling all ins is significantly weaker unless you have a really good reaction time that only high level players really possess. There's no way you're stopping ~20 Banelings from crashing your wall around your natural.
Also, the build is REALLY easy to macro with. Extra minerals? Make SCVs, Marines, Depots, and Barracks. Extra gas? Power upgrades (and there are plenty to be had that support your army) and make Medivacs and Ravens. But I have issues with the 2 Starport concept... I really wish I could have 3 (2 Tech and 1 Reactor) so I can always have Medivacs handy as well as always having a solid Raven count (similar to always having a solid Tank count with a reasonable flow of Medivacs). If I go 2 Tech Labs, it becomes really technical on whether I should make Medivacs or Ravens. Of course, your current resources can easily dictate that you can only make Medivacs at the time, but since you're splitting production between Medivacs and Ravens, I'd like more flexibility. If you go 2 Tech Labs, you can only make 2 Medivacs at a time while making no Ravens. If you go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor, you can make 2 Medivacs at a time as well as constantly making a Raven, but you never have the option of powering Raven production. I feel if you could get 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor, you'd be in the perfect range as you could easily power either Raven or Medivac production. However, If you land good HSMs, there's not much need to really have more than 1 Raven constantly in production. But the thing is, with the mediocre range on HSM, the friendly splash on HSM, and the fact that Ravens are relatively easy to snipe, having more Ravens gives you a bit of a safety net.
And it's always nice to not have to waste Scans for Burrowed Banelings or Creep Tumors. And to check ahead, you can simply Stim a Marine and have him run as far as he can to his death. You might also want to Stim a few to check all paths that Zerg can flank you from, so you know where to position your Ravens to HSM from in order to quickly protect your Marines from Banelings.
But I also feel you can't really threaten the Zerg before the 10 minute mark like you normally could with a Tank-based build. All you have access to is a bunch of Marines, some Medivacs, and a Raven or two (I prefer to go 1 Tech Lab 1 Reactor in 1v1 for a steady flow of Medivacs to compliment the ~30 Marines I'll have at that point, though I get HSM later as a result). You can't really push with low energy Ravens. Auto Turrets aren't really good enough to do anything but harassing damage (they're like somewhat stronger Marines, but Marines are good when you have a LOT of them, and you won't be able to drop that many Auto Turrets). Point Defense Drone is useless except if they have Mutalisks, and they likely won't want to engage your Marine army anyway, and you have little reason to stay in 1 place anyway since you have no Tanks to slow push with. As a result, you can only really push them once you have HSM, which takes a while even with the energy upgrade. So your only real option is to drop them while sending a Marine group to their third (either double drop or 1 Medivac into the main and a group of Marines by foot). If anything, going for 3 attacks (dropping the main and natural while harassing the third by foot) is also a reasonably good idea as long as your drops don't get picked off in the air or caught early. If they do, you're down like 24 Marines and 2 Medivacs, which is essentially everything you had except a Raven. But 3 attacks that actually land, even if killing only 1 Drone each, is bound to do a lot of damage. You can basically snipe 1 Hatchery and deny a LOT of mining time if your opponent doesn't respond efficiently (even then you're guaranteed to deny a lot of mining time unless he wants to lose a ton of Drones).
I feel like, with really good control (the macro basically performs itself if you just keep checking on your upgrades), this could be a REALLY good build. Again, with REALLY good control (like Professional or GM level control).
But the biggest issue I'm having with this build is how to start it. If you open 2 Rax, a lot of the game hinges on how well your 2 Rax went and how much you committed to it because the more you commit, the later your expansion, which is a critical timing for when everything in this build starts to kick in. If you open a Hellion expand, your expansion is later than I'd like, but you do get the early Factory, map control, and the option to deny Creep Spread (which is always good, but less necessary in my opinion with this build).
I feel that opening a gasless expand (cutting the first Depot and second Marine for a faster CC) is the most idea way to open this build in terms of how to get everything pumping as quickly as possible, but we all know that isn't a realistic option in TvZ since early Zergling pressure and lack of ability to apply your own pressure are two big things that can sink you (especially combined with the fact you have no real ~9 minute timing attack). In most cases, Zerg will power their economy insanely hard, and you can't do anything about it. They get an early third base, maybe even get as far as saturate it, and don't have to really worry about any pressure from you.
So the most realistic opener would probably be the Hellion expand with 1 Rax Bunker pressure.
But the thing I REALLY hate about this build is how much of it relies on HSM. In TvZ, the only REALLY effective ability the Raven has is detection and HSM. Turrets are basically only good to harass. If I want Ravens for Turrets, I could've cut the Factory and Starports of of my build, severely reduced my gas intake, and went pure Marine Medic and have way more extra Marines than what I could've had in Auto Turrets. And Marines are more mobile than Auto Turrets. HSM NEEDS to be reduced to 75 or 100 energy cost in order for this to be anything more than maybe a late game transition. You can probably go standard Marine/Tank/Medivac and transition into this build (you can easily do visa versa), which would take out a lot of the early game problems of this build. HSM just comes out WAY too late. You're pinned to do damage through nothing but drops, which could very easily be denied with Mutalisks.
I don't care if Ravens ended up with 100 max energy, HSM NEEDS to be more available. You can't pop a Raven at around 9 minutes and say, "okay, I need to wait 50 seconds now before I can do any damage with a push". And you'll only have 2 HSMs max and you NEED to make them count.
Ravens are good (as are all casters that do outright damage though Energy), but I'd rather have Psi Storm or Fungal Growth (especially Fungal Growth, omg... Imagine Terran with a unit that had Fungal Growth) at 75 energy as opposed to a HSM at 125 energy that isn't even guaranteed to hit more than 1 unit against a good player. (And hey! High Templar and Ravens are Tier 3, while Infestors are Tier 2... I'd MUCH rather have Infestors; though almost all other units Zerg has is terrible, so Blizzard PLEASE buff Hydralisks and nerf Infestors. Oh... And buff Ravens...)
Please check out some of out replays, turrets are pretty fucking useful aside from just harassing xD
Will finish reading your post ~
I looked at the last 3 replays you posted, and they weren't very impressive. The first two was basically you going against a 25 or even 35 minute long Ling/Baneling all in. And with that, you can see how retardedly difficult it can be to hold Baneling aggression without HSM and being able to quickly lay them down. 2 HSMs to each Baneling wave (maybe 3 on the bigger ones) and you're left with nothing but Lings, which Marines are VERY good at dealing with (especially when behind a wall). And in general, your friend didn't seem to really know what he was doing... Mutalisks shuts down both Hellions and Banshees (though going Infestor works too), and he Baneling busted you all day WITHOUT Baneling speed, without getting upgrades, without furthering his tech... Oh, and in game 2, I love how 1 Geyser in his main and 2 at his natural were completely untouched.
Defensive Auto Turrets is an okay idea, but they aren't nearly as good as Infested Terrans. I'd MUCH rather spend my energy on PDDs (which are only really useful against Mutalisk) or HSMs (and these are better than PDDs against Mutalisks). The big issue with Auto Turrets is that they take up space (and quite a bit of it as well). This means, if a unit blocks where the Auto Turret is supposed to be (another Auto Turret or an enemy unit, both VERY likely), then the Auto Turret won't be dropped. This SEVERELY reduces the efficiency in using MASS Auto Turrets. Sure, you can easily drop maybe 4 or 5 to support an army, but in terms of DPS, that's like 6-8 Marines, which could've easily been produced in greater numbers if you cut out the Ravens altogether (or a better unit, such as a Siege Tank, could've been produced). Dropping more than 4 or 5 Auto Turrets in a good location is very unlikely, especially against mass Speedlings. If you dropped a ton off to the side, then yeah it works. But they won't be able to reach all the Lings, and you'll have some untouched Lings on the side. But your idea that Marines are a support unit was nothing short of a bad idea. You're going to be floating a ton of minerals anyway, so why not dump them into 30 Marines a minute? You find out in game 3 how sick it is to just dump all your minerals into Marines (so long as they don't die to Banelings). Marines are the key point of this build because they're so cost efficient (especially with Medivacs) at dealing with EVERYTHING except Infestors, Ultralisks, and Banelings (once you have enough Marines, even Roaches or Hydralisks aren't too much of an issue). And Ravens with HSM easily help you tilt the scales in your favor, trading micro and control for positional brilliance to rid yourself of the immobility of Tank-based play.
However, a HSM does 100 damage (instantly upon landing and in an AoE). That's equivalent to up to 3 Siege Tanks (not vs Armored) or 2 Siege Tanks (vs Armored), plus it can target air units while also dealing splash damage to ground units (and visa versa). While it's not guaranteed to land, you can force the enemy to retreat.
In the third game, his Mutalisk control was pretty bad, as was his Mutalisk count. I was watching his resource counts and production tab while he was harassing you, and it didn't seem like he knew what he was doing. The macro concept behind Muta/Ling/Bane is very similar to Marine/Medivac/Raven. With Zerg you spend ALL your gas and Larvae on the Mutalisks and spend the leftovers on Drones (since the Mutalisks pin your opponent to his base, help pick off drops, and allows you to stall a Terran push through counterattacks or picking off enemy units). He instead made Lings then Banelings. His economy could've been much better and his Mutalisk count could've been a massive headache (granted, a few good HSMs and some sloppy control from the Zerg means game over as well). And as the game went on, his money just stacked higher and higher. I hardly see how macro is his strong point.
Unless Auto Turrets become as easy to drop like Infested Terrans or PDDs, there's very little point to rely too much on them. However, slow pushing with Auto Turrets was an idea I've been playing with in my head. The durability and ability to actually Sim City your Auto Turrets (I'm pretty sure that's possible) gives you something to slow push with OTHER than Tanks. However, Auto Turrets lack the "in your face" range that Siege Tanks had. You could pressure your opponent from range 13, where Auto Turrets are range 6 (7 with range upgrade; don't we wish we had Extended Thermal Lances for our Auto Turrets?). The thing about Tanks (other than keeping your units safe) was that once they got to a certain range (not even shelling the Hatch range), the Zerg HAS to deal with it. With Auto Turrets, I don't really see that happening; at least not as easily. Also, seeing as 4 Auto Turrets isn't nearly as effective as 3 Sieged Tanks, I'd say a Tanks push is still much more effective in the mid game.
Also, I would definitely suggest that you add more Medivacs to your composition. They are AMAZING. Stim all day and never feel the effects as well as allowing mass drops. Hell, you can even escort some of your drops with Ravens to HSM any Mutalisks that come nearby. The real strength in this build comes more from mobility than anything else, so you NEED to abuse it in the form of drops and Marine raids. You're pumping so many Marines to the point they're disposable anyway, so there's no real reason NOT to.
And with this build, I find OCs FAR better than PFs. The fact is, more minerals=more Barracks. Mora Barracks=more Marines=more shit to just throw at your opponent all over the map. If you constantly get 4 MULEs going, oh God the Marine count would be scary without Banelings or Infestors.
But yeah... I'll never see any reason that Auto Turrets as they are to be worth anything other than harass. Preset defensive Auto Turrets might be nice, but nothing spectacular. You just need SO MUCH open space in order for you to get a lot of them out.
As for your opening and overall execution of the build, I don't really feel comfortable with the Banshee in the build, as forcing Spore Crawlers could be a bit of an issue later (though you WILL most often drop your Marines in a corner and Stim them into the mineral line as opposed to dropping them in the mineral line). Also, I feel Banshees are expensive and even unnecessary if you open Reactor Hellions since that alone gives you map control. I would much rather spend the gas on Stim, a Medivac, or a Raven upgrade. Though dropping a Starport after my CC is something I'll try when looking for a solid opening to this build. Maybe slowly adding Starports is the way to go instead of hard powering into Raven production (in Korea, they open reactor Starport drops into Ravens after like 5 minutes of multi-drop harass instead of the standard Tank push). And your Marine upgrades could've and should've been started much earlier and should've been continued nonstop, allowing for a ridiculously early 3/3 (my biggest praise about the build). Though, in games 1 and 2, your gas income was difficult to maintain because you kept losing the SCVs mining gas or kept pulling them off defensively.
I have no issue with mass Raven. It's not a bad idea (the more HSMs you have access to, the better)... But you're going to be floating like 800 Minerals anyway, so might as well dump it into Marines and expansions. And since you're going to be pumping a TON of Marines, might as well get Medivacs and quick upgrades with all the gas you're getting. It's the same idea as Infestor Ling and Chargelot Archon. In game 1 and 2, you could never really get up your Marine count (you eventually did in game 1 to some extent), and it really hurt your outright combat abilities. In game 3, you spammed Marines and it went better for you (though I feel like you could've had a LOT more Marines). Once you get your 2nd base saturated, you should be able to support like 9 Barracks with constant MULE drops. And then you get a third and you're pumping off something like 12-16 Barracks and 2 Starports (or you can do like 12-14 Barracks and 3 Starports, which is probably better but I never noticed the gas income spike as much as the mineral income spike, though sometimes I prefer instead to add a Tech Lab to my Factory and start Tank production). It gets a little ridiculous really when you're just slapping down Barracks everywhere and pumping out crazy amounts of Marines.
I just won a game using the marine raven composition, it really is effective with good execution. I disagree with some of the posts above suggesting turrets are useless. Turrets are by no means a replacement dps for marines, but the key to turrets is that they are a instant, mobile wall that not only are disposable (unlike tanks), but can attack both ground and air as well as mess up the attack ai of lings/banes/mutas as your marines lay waste. Also, PDD is an amazing ability versus muta and I find pdd and turrets alone to be the core spells (hsm good if have opportunity with clumped muta or roaches).
Below is the recent replay of the game I played using this composition, I transitioned similar to yoshi but kept my banshees alive as long as possible to harass and force both detection (in case of cloak), spores, and *key* mutas. I WANT the zerg to make muta, as pdd negates muta completely. I still need to work on counters to possible blind infestor build though.
Facts: - auto turrets are zero supply - banelings must use their building attack on auto turrets - auto turrets side-by-side make perfect walls and 3 turrets will block normal ramps easy - a turret will beat a queen one-on-one but burn down afterwards - auto turrets are upgrade-able to have +2 armor, +1 range, and extra time on countdown
I don't see why auto-turrets are completely useless. HSM is more useless in my opinion other than against baneling clumps and mutalisk balls. Using HSM most likely means losing that raven as well. 6 range will get your raven's killed, which is why you can't heavily rely on HSM. However 1 medivac, 2 raven drop. Drop 6-7 autoturrets or 4-5 autoturrets+PDD, you have a deadly drop that could easily do more damage than normal. Also one raven could drop 4 turrets at one expo, which might not seem like much, but definitely enough to kill an expansion. Combined with generic medivac drops ravens can add so much more to the aggression.
An interesting game to check out is Day[9] Daily #284 Funday Monday . Where people could only pick 3 units to build all game. Drewbie goes marine/raven/medivac, and utilizes ebay upgrades(even bunker space upgrade), and shows some neat ways to slow push with mass bunkers and auto turrets. Also using all the spare minerals to make barracks walls at chokes where zerg can counter attack.
On October 11 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: I just won a game using the marine raven composition, it really is effective with good execution. I disagree with some of the posts above suggesting turrets are useless. Turrets are by no means a replacement dps for marines, but the key to turrets is that they are a instant, mobile wall that not only are disposable (unlike tanks), but can attack both ground and air as well as mess up the attack ai of lings/banes/mutas as your marines lay waste. Also, PDD is an amazing ability versus muta and I find pdd and turrets alone to be the core spells (hsm good if have opportunity with clumped muta or roaches).
Below is the recent replay of the game I played using this composition, I transitioned similar to yoshi but kept my banshees alive as long as possible to harass and force both detection (in case of cloak), spores, and *key* mutas. I WANT the zerg to make muta, as pdd negates muta completely. I still need to work on counters to possible blind infestor build though.
This is a ladder game between masters players. Both my opponent and I are 1250+ masters
Your opponent is definitely not a 1250 master zerg, or if he is he go there by cheese. There is no OL spread, no creep spread, a terran outworkers him all game without ever doing any major worker damage, his muta harass damage is basically 0 even though he goes mutas as his first tech option. Takes a 3rd after 12 minutes without any major pressure outside of 2 banshees and 4 hellions even though he went roach. The level of play is definitely not at 1200 (which is also where I play so I do have a good idea).
You did demonstrate some nice use of ravens, but in your game having tanks instead of the ravens would definitely have done better.
On October 11 2011 05:23 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: Facts: - auto turrets are zero supply - banelings must use their building attack on auto turrets - auto turrets side-by-side make perfect walls and 3 turrets will block normal ramps easy - a turret will beat a queen one-on-one but burn down afterwards - auto turrets are upgrade-able to have +2 armor, +1 range, and extra time on countdown
I don't see why auto-turrets are completely useless. HSM is more useless in my opinion other than against baneling clumps and mutalisk balls. Using HSM most likely means losing that raven as well. 6 range will get your raven's killed, which is why you can't heavily rely on HSM. However 1 medivac, 2 raven drop. Drop 6-7 autoturrets or 4-5 autoturrets+PDD, you have a deadly drop that could easily do more damage than normal. Also one raven could drop 4 turrets at one expo, which might not seem like much, but definitely enough to kill an expansion. Combined with generic medivac drops ravens can add so much more to the aggression.
An interesting game to check out is Day[9] Daily #284 Funday Monday . Where people could only pick 3 units to build all game. Drewbie goes marine/raven/medivac, and utilizes ebay upgrades(even bunker space upgrade), and shows some neat ways to slow push with mass bunkers and auto turrets. Also using all the spare minerals to make barracks walls at chokes where zerg can counter attack.
I said they are useless in a real battle and are only really capable in harass situations. Everything you said about Auto Turrets actually supports my argument because you mention nothing about using them in an actual battle.
On October 11 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: I just won a game using the marine raven composition, it really is effective with good execution. I disagree with some of the posts above suggesting turrets are useless. Turrets are by no means a replacement dps for marines, but the key to turrets is that they are a instant, mobile wall that not only are disposable (unlike tanks), but can attack both ground and air as well as mess up the attack ai of lings/banes/mutas as your marines lay waste. Also, PDD is an amazing ability versus muta and I find pdd and turrets alone to be the core spells (hsm good if have opportunity with clumped muta or roaches).
Below is the recent replay of the game I played using this composition, I transitioned similar to yoshi but kept my banshees alive as long as possible to harass and force both detection (in case of cloak), spores, and *key* mutas. I WANT the zerg to make muta, as pdd negates muta completely. I still need to work on counters to possible blind infestor build though.
This is a ladder game between masters players. Both my opponent and I are 1250+ masters
Yeah, this is a much better example game. Both players have significantly cleaner play (though you probably could've kept your Banshees and Hellions alive while he probably could've kept a few more Mutalisks alive and upgrades could've been better; and you maybe could've taken an extra base or cut SCV production earlier because you were heavily oversaturated). Also, why did he have a Lair when he's not even at +2 for any upgrades? Ultralisks? Infestor Broodlord? I can't imagine the latter since he didn't make any Infestors. And he floats a ton of resources for some reason... To be honest, I think you play at a little bit of a higher level than he does (at least in using your respective races).
And your Turret wall feels very map dependent. It feels like it would be highly effective on maps like Shakuras Plateau with all the chokes to the expansions (though his decision for a third was by far the worst he could've picked since you can block his primary path to defend his third while still leaving yourself a path to retreat. If he took the bottom natural for his third, you'd basically be committing to the attack and using everything you have with the Raven to keep your Marines alive so that they might be able to get out or do as much damage to the enemy army as possible.
And similar to using Tanks, these Turret walls are sort of a premeditated position thing. If you get caught early and in the middle of the map, it means about as much as a late siege. You can scout ahead with your Ravens or a single Stimmed Marine to make sure that doesn't happen (with PDD saving you if your opponent went Mutas since nothing use shoots up), but it still feels like you want that ideal position, and if you can't get it you lose a lot of effectiveness. In the first push, he was so out of position that your 60 Marines would've sniped the Hatchery no matter what. The wall won't do much to help. In the second push, he had so few units that you could've A-moved into his army and won there, freely dropping Turrets for extra DPS at his bases as you wish (okay, you might've needed a PDD or HSM, but if you rally your Marines, you could've just A-moved into his army and won).
But I'll check out the Turret wall concept, but I'm not going to skip out on Medivac production since I want to abuse the mobility that this build allows me by including drops. And hey, if you're going to be Stimming your Marines anyway, why not?
But in your game, I feel like it was your opening that killed him (that and the poor positioning during your first push that allowed you snipe his third unopposed). His Drone count was lower than yours ever since the 11 minute mark (and there were several long portions where you were ahead before that and several parts where you were even or barely behind in harvesters; he was never ahead in economy). The game feels like it was won with the opener and from then on you could've done almost anything to win. Once you sniped the third, it was the nail in the coffin. 75 SCVs (and counting) vs 50 Drones is a joke unless he does something big. It was basically over when he decided to do a Roach push and you opened a Hellion Expand into double Banshee. If he kept Injecting Larvae, he very likely would've been okay, but he didn't... So we can analyze it like "oh well his finishing composition was Marine Raven, that's what won him the game" or look for when the game was basically over and realize "well... The Banshees sort of killed like... 11 Drones, a Spore Crawler (which means 12 Drones) and a bunch of Lings and maybe a Roach... So I think the game is sort of... Heavily in Terran's favor economically at this point unless Zerg does some good Mutalisk harass and Drones up hard behind it, neither of which he did... So the game is essentially over at this point."
I think we need some Korean server replays for more insight into this composition and how it can be used.
We need to see games of high level players that are evenly matched in the matchup. You both may have been 1250 Master's, but I think in a Bo7, you would crush him 4-1... Maybe 4-2 if he gets lucky with some dumb cheese or you make a horrible mistake. I don't think it would be too close. (I don't see any reason other than that upset factor to say you would do anything but 4-0 the guy, though ZvT could be his worst matchup.)
I just had an idea, regarding the infestor problem. Aside from the possibility that making 1 big push like I mentioned with your marine/raven will work vs infestors since he might have too many infestors devoted to defense, (infestors will be there to stop harassment, and if not then you can go harass ofc), I think if you harass with 1 medivac and 2 Ravens it would be very strong. Imagine moving in with 1 Raven, seeker missile the infestor, drop the marines and use the other raven to make turrets to block the ramp leading to the base, or block 1 side of the mineral line so that the marines can trap and kill all the drones, or wall off the area behind the mineral line to make marines better vs lings, etc. 2 Ravens and 1 medivac is a bit of a commitment but really I can't see a zerg easily defending harass like that.
On October 11 2011 05:23 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote: Facts: - auto turrets are zero supply - banelings must use their building attack on auto turrets - auto turrets side-by-side make perfect walls and 3 turrets will block normal ramps easy - a turret will beat a queen one-on-one but burn down afterwards - auto turrets are upgrade-able to have +2 armor, +1 range, and extra time on countdown
I don't see why auto-turrets are completely useless. HSM is more useless in my opinion other than against baneling clumps and mutalisk balls. Using HSM most likely means losing that raven as well. 6 range will get your raven's killed, which is why you can't heavily rely on HSM. However 1 medivac, 2 raven drop. Drop 6-7 autoturrets or 4-5 autoturrets+PDD, you have a deadly drop that could easily do more damage than normal. Also one raven could drop 4 turrets at one expo, which might not seem like much, but definitely enough to kill an expansion. Combined with generic medivac drops ravens can add so much more to the aggression.
An interesting game to check out is Day[9] Daily #284 Funday Monday . Where people could only pick 3 units to build all game. Drewbie goes marine/raven/medivac, and utilizes ebay upgrades(even bunker space upgrade), and shows some neat ways to slow push with mass bunkers and auto turrets. Also using all the spare minerals to make barracks walls at chokes where zerg can counter attack.
I've never really liked drewbie but... omg really he did that? that's the kind of terran style i like, weird and creative, but very defensive... spamming bunkers and turrets? Hell yes... spamming barracks to make chokes? HELL YES
On October 11 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: I just won a game using the marine raven composition, it really is effective with good execution. I disagree with some of the posts above suggesting turrets are useless. Turrets are by no means a replacement dps for marines, but the key to turrets is that they are a instant, mobile wall that not only are disposable (unlike tanks), but can attack both ground and air as well as mess up the attack ai of lings/banes/mutas as your marines lay waste. Also, PDD is an amazing ability versus muta and I find pdd and turrets alone to be the core spells (hsm good if have opportunity with clumped muta or roaches).
Below is the recent replay of the game I played using this composition, I transitioned similar to yoshi but kept my banshees alive as long as possible to harass and force both detection (in case of cloak), spores, and *key* mutas. I WANT the zerg to make muta, as pdd negates muta completely. I still need to work on counters to possible blind infestor build though.
This is a ladder game between masters players. Both my opponent and I are 1250+ masters
Your opponent is definitely not a 1250 master zerg, or if he is he go there by cheese. There is no OL spread, no creep spread, a terran outworkers him all game without ever doing any major worker damage, his muta harass damage is basically 0 even though he goes mutas as his first tech option. Takes a 3rd after 12 minutes without any major pressure outside of 2 banshees and 4 hellions even though he went roach. The level of play is definitely not at 1200 (which is also where I play so I do have a good idea).
You did demonstrate some nice use of ravens, but in your game having tanks instead of the ravens would definitely have done better.
I was wondering about the Zerg as well, but maybe the Zerg is REALLY good in ZvP and ZvZ but REALLY bad in ZvT...
But yeah, I still feel like Tanks would do better in almost every case. Especially if you have THAT MANY Marines.
On October 11 2011 05:05 RaE21 wrote: I just won a game using the marine raven composition, it really is effective with good execution. I disagree with some of the posts above suggesting turrets are useless. Turrets are by no means a replacement dps for marines, but the key to turrets is that they are a instant, mobile wall that not only are disposable (unlike tanks), but can attack both ground and air as well as mess up the attack ai of lings/banes/mutas as your marines lay waste. Also, PDD is an amazing ability versus muta and I find pdd and turrets alone to be the core spells (hsm good if have opportunity with clumped muta or roaches).
Below is the recent replay of the game I played using this composition, I transitioned similar to yoshi but kept my banshees alive as long as possible to harass and force both detection (in case of cloak), spores, and *key* mutas. I WANT the zerg to make muta, as pdd negates muta completely. I still need to work on counters to possible blind infestor build though.
This is a ladder game between masters players. Both my opponent and I are 1250+ masters
Your opponent is definitely not a 1250 master zerg, or if he is he go there by cheese. There is no OL spread, no creep spread, a terran outworkers him all game without ever doing any major worker damage, his muta harass damage is basically 0 even though he goes mutas as his first tech option. Takes a 3rd after 12 minutes without any major pressure outside of 2 banshees and 4 hellions even though he went roach. The level of play is definitely not at 1200 (which is also where I play so I do have a good idea).
You did demonstrate some nice use of ravens, but in your game having tanks instead of the ravens would definitely have done better.
I was wondering about the Zerg as well, but maybe the Zerg is REALLY good in ZvP and ZvZ but REALLY bad in ZvT...
But yeah, I still feel like Tanks would do better in almost every case. Especially if you have THAT MANY Marines.
Dunno about the zerg, just based it on the stats page when I clicked his profile after game. Tanks are solid in the matchup no doubt, but ravens are just super fun to use ^_^
This is how I envision the transition going, the ravens are just arriving on the scene as I finish up the win, but I think it would work well if the game had needed to continue without opening yourself up to any weak transition points.
I'm slightly inebriated in this game and float alot later on, also zerg loses quite a few lings to me on a wierd timing attack in the early-mid game, but other then that the game is pretty standard. I could have afforded some defensive tanks easily as well as a much larger number of ravens.
Also I think that we may have been thinking about how to utilize ravens in slightly the wrong way. I think they probably maximize efficacy in the small group battles. So that means when using ravens it might be best to split up your ravens and send 2-3 of them with multi prong drops. This just makes those multi prong drops absolutely brutal for zerg to deal with. It really strengthens the drop incredibly to have 2-3 PDD available and maybe a HSM or turret wall. This also makes them less vulnerable to a big ball infestor death (one of their only weaknesses). Anyway this is just how I envision it, but that plays really well into my dropping style.
On October 20 2011 03:51 Antisocialmunky wrote: I was wondering... Has anyone who has watched MLG done the 16 build queue of marines that Bomber pulled at Orlando?
I tried MarineKingPrime's early double upgrade build. I really liked the idea. Basically, you get a fast expansion and 3 barracks and with your gas you simply upgrade to fast 3/3 marines with combat shield and stim. While adding on more barracks and expansions while slowly teching to ravens with priority on upgrades.
The obvious problem are banlings. I am nowhere near as good as MKP (duh...) with my marine micro and one wrong step and I lost... pretty much every game. Maybe add in some tanks for the mid game (either for push or defense while dropping everywhere) and then transition into ravens?
But the more I play the more I think the way to do it is like statikg said: Basically just being in the Zerg's face everywhere all the time with drops and attacks while teching to ravens and then making small "hit squads" of 8-16 marines with 2 medivacs and 2-3 ravens as support.
This way you can seeker missile banelings (or mutas to get them to leave), support a position with auto turrets/block a ramp with auto turrents while the marines kill of the expansion or deploy a point defense drone against a large muta force. If you got 16 marines with 3/3 upgrades 2 medivacs and 1-2 point defense drones they can handle almost all mutas the zerg has. Also you can help the drops land or evacuate against the mutas with point defense drones. Granted this all seems sooo much micro intensive - to the point that it is almost impossible (for me at least) but that is the way I would like to play it. Maybe someday you get to see a pro do it. Looking forward to it.
Just found out that thread, can't believe it! After watching some BW the other day, I thought exactly the same as you. Marine/Raven has to be good, just like the SK terran style is so good in BW, and as the raven is by far my favourite unit in SC2 I've been working on raven buids lately. So far, I've only been able to troll a few ppl with some PF/raven builds, but I'm pretty sure the marine/raven combination can be strong. Maybe a little range buff would help for the seeker missile.... but anyway I'm gonna try those builds, and maybe change them, I'll post here if I find out anything good/interesting.
I've beaten noobs with marine hellion raven into BC. Marine/Hellion/Raven might actually be viable, but it requires sick micro to pull off consistently. Im not sure if it's really ever viable to make more than 3 or 4 ravens though.
On January 25 2012 04:42 SolidMustard wrote: Just found out that thread, can't believe it! After watching some BW the other day, I thought exactly the same as you. Marine/Raven has to be good, just like the SK terran style is so good in BW, and as the raven is by far my favourite unit in SC2 I've been working on raven buids lately. So far, I've only been able to troll a few ppl with some PF/raven builds, but I'm pretty sure the marine/raven combination can be strong. Maybe a little range buff would help for the seeker missile.... but anyway I'm gonna try those builds, and maybe change them, I'll post here if I find out anything good/interesting.
Well, when you reach 20+ ravens it becomes quite hard to beat with any army composition, the only downside is that, if stacked, they can be very vulnerable to AOE. The way I like to play it is to force my opponent on the defensive foot by harrassing with auto turrets, and go for the base trade if I'm under an heavy attack.
On January 25 2012 04:42 SolidMustard wrote: Just found out that thread, can't believe it! After watching some BW the other day, I thought exactly the same as you. Marine/Raven has to be good, just like the SK terran style is so good in BW, and as the raven is by far my favourite unit in SC2 I've been working on raven buids lately. So far, I've only been able to troll a few ppl with some PF/raven builds, but I'm pretty sure the marine/raven combination can be strong. Maybe a little range buff would help for the seeker missile.... but anyway I'm gonna try those builds, and maybe change them, I'll post here if I find out anything good/interesting.
SK Terran plays nothing like Marine/Raven.
Why not? I'm nothing like a BW specialist so I could totaly be wrong, but it looks very similar to me. You rely on a lot of low-tier upgraded bio, and keep the gas to add a flying detector/spell caster to deal AOE damage to the ennemy... How the fuck isn't it similar?
On January 25 2012 04:42 SolidMustard wrote: Just found out that thread, can't believe it! After watching some BW the other day, I thought exactly the same as you. Marine/Raven has to be good, just like the SK terran style is so good in BW, and as the raven is by far my favourite unit in SC2 I've been working on raven buids lately. So far, I've only been able to troll a few ppl with some PF/raven builds, but I'm pretty sure the marine/raven combination can be strong. Maybe a little range buff would help for the seeker missile.... but anyway I'm gonna try those builds, and maybe change them, I'll post here if I find out anything good/interesting.
SK Terran plays nothing like Marine/Raven.
Why not? I'm nothing like a BW specialist so I could totaly be wrong, but it looks very similar to me. You rely on a lot of low-tier upgraded bio, and keep the gas to add a flying detector/spell caster to deal AOE damage to the ennemy... How the fuck isn't it similar?
Plus its Terran vs Zerg in both BW and SC2, so it must be even more identical
I tried MarineKingPrime's early double upgrade build. I really liked the idea. Basically, you get a fast expansion and 3 barracks and with your gas you simply upgrade to fast 3/3 marines with combat shield and stim. While adding on more barracks and expansions while slowly teching to ravens with priority on upgrades.
I like this idea a lot too, I've been using the build you described (didn't realise it was an MKP special) against Z for a while now with quite a bit of success - if you upgrade seamlessly it allows you to get 3/3 marines by 17 minutes, which is brutally quick. I usually go for the normal tank/medivac/ghost after the first round of upgrades but going marine/raven/medivac instead sounds like a lot of fun - you could lift off the 2 tech lab rax and make reactors once stim & shield are finished, putting starports on the 2 labs for a nice smooth transition.
Would be interested to hear if anyone's tried a build like this, sounds very gas intensive though, especially if you're getting Corvid/HSM for your ravens.
I'll upload more replays as I play, really liking this strat, reminds me of the glory days of BW with SK Terran... Hmm that has me thinking there has got to be a more catchy name than Marine/Raven..
Had a really fun, long and difficult game today on Cloud Kingdom using this strat. Very back and forth, I was playing bio all game and slowly added in Ravens as my gas started to pile up. The Ravens really were the reason that I was able to hold his final push and what made my counter attack so strong.