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[G] TvZ Gas Before Rax FE into Marine-Raven

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 19:47:58
August 30 2010 01:15 GMT
#1
I am a low level T diamond player. Since I've lost over 150 points on ladder this weekend, I decided to forget about playing for a few days. So I'm going to present to you my guide to winning TvZ at low diamond level, since that appears to be the only matchup I don't autolose at.

You might say, "it's TvZ! We ALREADY rape Zerg no matter what they do, why do we need yet another imbalanced T strategy?" Well, sometimes it's just boring to mass reapers and kill them. Sometimes it's boring to mass igniter helions off 2 factories and kill all their drones. Sometimes cloaked banshee rush just doesn't inspire the correct amount of rage from Zergs. Sometimes it's just fun to overrun Z with over 9000 marines, even if he has infestors and banelings. Essentially this is an FE build that transitions into mass marine, medivac, and ravens. My loose build order goes like this

the build order
+ Show Spoiler +

(with constant scvs)
10 depot (put this one in your minline, don't wall with it)
12 gas
13 rax (send the scv that finishes this rax to scout)
16 factory (start pulling guys off gas at 88 gas, so you can make your CC quicker)
16 orbital command
17 marine (stop producing marines, you've got a rax/fac wall, you only need 1 marine to kill the scouting drone or deny overlords)
17 depot ( i found depot before CC allows constant scv production, since CC takes forever to build)
20 CC (plug up the corner hole in your rax/fac wall with this cc, put guys back on gas now)
20 helion
after this i don't really have exact supply counts

Make a bunker if you're really that nervous when you land your CC in the natural.

Make a starport when you have 100 gas and take your second gas at that time. You're only going to make 1 viking out of this starport before you add on a tech-lab. Research raven energy ASAP, then HSM when it's done. Use this viking to scout and harass overlords, so you can save all your OC energy for mules.

Add on more barracks as money allows. I found that once I got my natural saturated, i could support 3 port production, with 2 techlabs for raven and 1 reactor for medivacs, plus about 8+ barracks. Once you have your third cut a round of marine production and add reactors. It is also important to make continuous helions out of your one factory.

Don't forget your e-bay. I'm not really sure when to get it, but I normally make my ebay at the latest after spire is finished. Make your armory when +1 is about 2/3rds done so you can research +2 right away. I add a techlab to one barracks when I add on two barracks, so I'm running on 3rax 1 fac 1port while I'm still saturating my bases. I generally get stim before marine HP, but I think that's situational and depends on how fast his mutas are and when you start medivac production.

Push when you've got enough energy on your ravens for at least 2 HSMs. You should be able to deal a pretty heavy blow to his army and/or deny his third double gas.


Theory behind the build
+ Show Spoiler +
Mules are fucking awesome. They mine at a ridiculous rate. The only thing more awesome than producing mules out of one orbital is producing mules out of two orbitals. However, zerg can produce more drones than you can make out of two CCs, even if you have orbital. That's why putting pressure on zerg early game is so important, so that they're forced to spent larvae on things like roaches or lings, instead of more drones.

I want to expand as early as humanly possible, but it's really not safe or worth it if Zerg can just kill your expo right away with ling/roach, or saturate his bases to 50+ while you're still on 20 workers. Expanding off 1 rax with no gas seems like just a bad idea to me, since roaches rape marines pretty badly, whereas with this you've already got the gas, you can just throw some scvs in there faster and make a techlab. Therefore, I go gas before barracks to get early helions. Gas after barracks means your helions and expansion are later. This puts a ton of pressure on zerg. Now he has to choose between
A) making queens to deal with helions
B) making roaches to deal with helions
C) making speedlings to deal with helions

A) is pretty meh, but it delays his lair. B) is the best possible outcome: it's an incredible gas sink, roaches are 2 supply instead of 1 now so he can't even make that many without spending a ton on overlords, and you can make marauders and 1a to victory. C) is probably the optimal response; he only needs to make as many lings as he feels he can get away with to micro against helions with queen support. If your helion micro is better than his ling micro, then you're already way ahead. While he wastes larvae on lings, you're making nonstop scvs from 2 CCs.

The viking is important because it forces Zerg to get some kind of anti-air, or lose total map control and vision. Also you don't have to worry about scanning badly and missing his teching pattern.


What this works against
+ Show Spoiler +
Infestor/baneling/speedling

Infestors cost gas. Banelings cost gas. Every single infestor or baneling they make means less gas for ultras and a slower hive. Marines cost 50 minerals each. As long as you don't lose like 10 marines to one baneling, you're coming out ahead in terms of resources. You also produce marines much, much faster than he can produce banelings. Also you should be able to soften up lings/banelings with those helions you've been making off your 1 factory, and even sacrifice them to tank if needed.

You should be sniping infestors with your ravens. Banelings are annoying, but they're only actually "HOLY SHIT" annoying if your marines get fungal'd. You could also put an HSM in an idle baneling group and giggle when all his lings die because he didn't have any banelings mixed in. You'll also never get caught off guard by a burrowed baneling trap with your ravens.

mutas

HSM +stim marines lol.

Seriously thors are fucking slow and expensive and suck against mutas for cost anyways. Don't make thors, they're bad. Try to sandwich the mutas between your ravens and marines so when they run from marines they get HSM in the face.

hydras

Worst possible response to mass marine/medivac/raven. Drop PDD, stim, win.

roaches

Eh. I've never really played someone who made roaches in the midgame, but you've got 3 rax with no addons. Make some marauders and you should come out pretty even.

ultras
You have +2 attack, with +3 finishing by now, right? If you've survived the muta/infestor/baneling/speedling midgame then he should be pretty gas starved unless you couldn't deny his third double gas at all. Make sure that you don't have your marines in one control group (this also applies to fighting banelings) and try to soften them up with autoturrets/HSM before you actually engage. You should also add on a couple of techlabs to your barracks for marauder production, but you should still be more marine heavy since they take one more hit to kill than marauders do. You can also add banshees since you've already got starports with techlabs.

baneling bust

It's a free win. You have rax/fac/cc wallin with helions. Add your second gas and make banshees.


Discuss! Think this build is terrible? Think this build is awesome? Again, I'm playing at low diamond. This might or might not work against mid to high level diamond. It should though.

Caveat: this build requires a fuckton of APM. Optimally you should be using at least 4 control groups for MM, and a fifth for ravens, and maybe even a 6th for a couple of helions. One control group is the easiest way to die to one fungal and banelings. You need to be able to scout and harass with your one viking while not screwing up the rest of the build in your base. I still 1 dragclick a, but I'm trying to hotkey my mm to more groups. It's hard and I need more apm :/

I'll add replays when I upload them, though to be fair I play some pretty lame opponents.
replays
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Blistering sands, he went roach hydra into ultras. he attacks his ultras into a choke and they all die instantly.

[image loading]

This is a game where I haven't worked out the whole thing yet. I build thors and miserably fail against mutas.

[image loading]

This one is a hilarious fail. I let 10 mutas in my base because I flew my viking right over his spire and decided that I was too manly for turrets.

[image loading]

This is a pretty nice game I thought, played against one of my teammates. Waves and waves of marines die to baneling/infestor/ultra but I come out ahead anyways because MM is more cost efficient and his macro isn't exactly amazing.

[image loading]

This is another one where I haven't worked out my BO fully yet, I get 3rax before port. I also add a pretty heavy igniter helion count, so this isn't pure MM +raven. This is probably the best player out of these replays with 924 points, so I guess it kinda works vs mid-diamond?

[image loading]

I get roach rushed here. I think here I lost the game, rather than the Z winning. If I hadn't cut helion production and put 2 helions behind my wallin, I could have forced him away or at least gotten all his lings and then he couldn't have broken my bunker. Maybe. I thought I could have gotten away with it in this game if I played better anyways.
guyGOTgirth
Profile Joined August 2010
United States76 Posts
August 30 2010 01:26 GMT
#2
I'll watch some reps...
Bnet ID: guyGOTgirth.114
claricorp
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada142 Posts
August 30 2010 01:31 GMT
#3
honestly i dont think you would quite have enough to stop early enough mutalisks, or an attack from speedlings and roaches early enough. though i would like to see some replays.
guyGOTgirth
Profile Joined August 2010
United States76 Posts
August 30 2010 01:56 GMT
#4
that was my thought claricorp... i win a largggge fraction of my TvZ except some games where I go for quick hellion harass and don't scout a roach warren I have lost to strong roach pushes (typically there is some other fault of my own - like my SCV to repair my wall wandered off).

i'm also approx rauks skill level
Bnet ID: guyGOTgirth.114
Moja
Profile Joined July 2010
United States313 Posts
August 30 2010 02:19 GMT
#5
This midgame unit composition is cool. I've been really wary of making ravens over siege tanks to deal with banelings, but I guess I can give it a shot (with the coming patch, siege tanks are getting nerfed out of the tvz midgame anyway, imo). I've been doing a lot of mass raven + marine play in 3v3s and 4v4s though. It's fun, if nothing else (so is mass ghost).

Your early game build is too vulnerable (5 roach rush instant wins against this build). It seems like you won't have the forces to protect your natural when your OC is ready to lift off and land there.

My main problem against zerg is still mass muta with baneling/speedling support. If the zerg is good about constantly harassing you with mutas, there's no real safe time to leave your base. Mutas are listed as a counter to ravens, btw . If you HSM a smart player will just fly away... -_-
Ofc dumb players will reward you with 30 dead mutalisks... ^^
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
August 30 2010 02:48 GMT
#6
updated OP with replays

moja - just build a zillion turrets. turrets are cheap, you have 2 OCs so you have the minerals, and mutas can't exactly attack vs a marine ball with ravens.
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
August 30 2010 02:58 GMT
#7
this build would get absolutely owned by the "5 roach rush" which is becoming increasingly popular.

just a heads up.
guyGOTgirth
Profile Joined August 2010
United States76 Posts
August 30 2010 03:53 GMT
#8
On August 30 2010 11:58 Subversion wrote:
this build would get absolutely owned by the "5 roach rush" which is becoming increasingly popular.

just a heads up.


i dont like the 5 roach rush =(

not to hijack but whats the build to counteract it (aside from just pumping fast marauders just cause...)

i typically find that the 5 roach rush hits shortly after u scan their base (assuming u mule the first time and ur scouting scv is dead)

Bnet ID: guyGOTgirth.114
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 04:01:03
August 30 2010 03:59 GMT
#9
On August 30 2010 12:53 guyGOTgirth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 11:58 Subversion wrote:
this build would get absolutely owned by the "5 roach rush" which is becoming increasingly popular.

just a heads up.


i dont like the 5 roach rush =(

not to hijack but whats the build to counteract it (aside from just pumping fast marauders just cause...)

i typically find that the 5 roach rush hits shortly after u scan their base (assuming u mule the first time and ur scouting scv is dead)



i think my game versus tollz was the 5 roach rush. have a look at that, i think it would have been a lot closer if i had helions behind my wallin. i walled with rax-lab/fac/bunker at my natural, but his lings killed my bunker since i had marauders in it which are pretty lame vs lings. if anyone's willing to test with me, just gimme your id and char code.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
August 30 2010 06:49 GMT
#10
I think you underestimate mutas. They can snipe raven easy if you not carefeful.

Hellions will die to mutas most of time. And what counter to banelings? HSM? I think it's too risky, cause if you fail with your HSM you lost I think..
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
August 30 2010 07:29 GMT
#11
Against your build, I would normally baneling bust. I don't see how you defend that well enough. Is there a replay of someone trying to do that against you and failing?
pg
Profile Joined April 2010
Iran5 Posts
August 30 2010 07:35 GMT
#12
anyone who loses in top tier games is because they cant micro and their apm is low
/thread
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 16:22:13
August 30 2010 16:16 GMT
#13
On August 30 2010 16:29 aebriol wrote:
Against your build, I would normally baneling bust. I don't see how you defend that well enough. Is there a replay of someone trying to do that against you and failing?


.....

you're going to baneling bust a rax/fac wall? what?

i have replays of bad zergs failing bad baneling busts but i don't even see how you come to your conclusion that baneling bust is a good idea.

alpina: watch the replays. it doesn't matter if he kills my army a couple of times because my econ is a lot better than his if he didn't saturate right away in response to my FE.
Elanshin
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia216 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 17:34:11
August 30 2010 16:56 GMT
#14
it seems like its a possible way to play although personally id prefer getting pre-igniter relatively early (mayb delay that first raven because honestly..... ravens early against zerg... are kind of useless). Instead get a medivac and load up 3 or so helions and pay a visit to the zergs main. Mid game, having extra factories producing helions at the very least is rather useful and means you have the tech up if you need to get some tanks because you';re being forced back a bit. Not to mention helions are amazing against lings and a helion drop can net you some insane drone kills.
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 18:24:46
August 30 2010 18:21 GMT
#15
On August 31 2010 01:56 wackedupwacko wrote:
it seems like its a possible way to play although personally id prefer getting pre-igniter relatively early (mayb delay that first raven because honestly..... ravens early against zerg... are kind of useless). Instead get a medivac and load up 3 or so helions and pay a visit to the zergs main. Mid game, having extra factories producing helions at the very least is rather useful and means you have the tech up if you need to get some tanks because you';re being forced back a bit. Not to mention helions are amazing against lings and a helion drop can net you some insane drone kills.


i guess it's possible to swap the scouting viking with a medivac but i'd would rather cut the helions and set up for a macro game with those minerals because if zerg is on the ball with overlords around his base and a group of speedlings you could easily have wasted 400 minerals in helions for very little gain.

early raven is to build up energy. hsm costs so much to cast.
ganil
Profile Joined August 2009
253 Posts
August 30 2010 18:46 GMT
#16
I tried this "kind of build" and it doesn't work.

HSM sux. Period. There is nothing more frustrating than watching hydralisks running faster than the missile or the zerg pulling of the right muta away. Only 6 range... 125 energy...

Moreover it's not forgiving at all. You miss your HSM, you loose.
SoFFacet
Profile Joined March 2010
United States101 Posts
August 30 2010 19:09 GMT
#17
Ravens are good for detecting and PDD. HSM is and Turret are pretty bad.

This build would die to 5RR - on ladder its generally safest to keep producing units until you can scout with your first hellion to see whats really going on. Otherwise you're left open to a ton of all-ins and cheese. Heck to be super safe I like an early Bunker on my ramp as well - if they are all in you win. If not you salvage it, no harm no foul.
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-31 06:11:00
August 31 2010 06:08 GMT
#18
ganil: watch the replays.... you don't HSM hydras, you use PDD. also i consistently get off terrible HSMs and still win. one game i even forget to research it and have my ravens sitting like retards over his infestors. marine medivac is pretty resilient.

soffacet: there's no reason to build a bunker until you scout them. that's 100 minerals you could have spent to get a faster barracks, ebay for upgrades, an extra helion to harass with, etc. also 5rr is a terrible build and he wasted his money on 5 roaches and a roach warren and delayed his lair by 125 gas just to force terran to make 1 techlab, some marauders, and possibly a bunker.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-31 06:13:50
August 31 2010 06:13 GMT
#19
5rr isn't hard to stop. You can just build a bunker or repair the wall. I'm kind of mystified by the fear of the 5rr - I've had it happen to me many many times my last few games and all I have to do is repair the wall + shoot. I lose a couple scvs max.

That said, any strategy that relies on HSM will not work, because anyone who knows you have HSM will just move away from it. It's too slow.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
August 31 2010 06:19 GMT
#20
most of these games seem to be won by superior macro + bunker MM combos. I dont think the ravens add much for their cost. It does look very fun though.

ive tried to replicate this a few times, and i just cant do it. the ravens are tricky to use and expensive!
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