On November 06 2010 01:23 KaiJa wrote: Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
For immigrants of our sort, there are two alternatives; either transplantation or alienation.
I am an integrated Canadian. By integrated I do not mean that I "feel" normal in relation to autochthons. The feelings of distance and outsiderness have never left my sinews. I do feel more comfortable and natural with white Canadians than I feel with Canadians of my own background. The hybrid discomforts of this status is alienation. It is a sort of loneliness which finds no fellowship in age, race, interests or economic backgrounds. In matters of age one is separated by not beginning with the same concept of childhood and maturity. In race, one feels estranged from one's own. In economic background, the frantic upward mobility of successful immigrants lends no identifiability with a single caste. The immigrant is constantly reinventing himself in terms of social class and social aspirations.
Those who are transplanted within a racial ghetto are effectively colonies. They have the opportunity to pursue a standard of normality within that parallel society, but are effectively cut off from the larger standard of normality within the adoptive nation. It should not be wondered why hosts find the presence of these permanent squatters repulsive.
When exchange students go abroad, they do not interact with the natives of their host countries, but with other uprooted exchange students. Where they find company from their own country, those are usually selected as friends. When one finds no company from one's own country, people from other countries are still preferred to people from the host country. Those lethargic tendencies parallel the fictitious "education" which they receive abroad: exchange students who ought to be studying harder than local students, study hardly at all. There is no motivation to adapt one's mind to the profanities of foreign concepts. The "foreignness" of the typical exchange student's experience may open his mind, but it opens it without really filling it with any committed thoughts. It permits him to look at the whole horizon without permitting him to focus on any part of it.
That is a real evil in uprootedness, and it is also an evil contracted through overusing the internet Nothing deflates authentic patriotism more than living in cyberspace.
You forgot to mention the part in which the exchange student comes home and interacts like a madman with every person from his former host country that he stumbles upon.
On a personal note: How much interaction did you have with the natives here and did you meet anyone you considered apt to your expectations? Did you expect Germans to be more eastern european in things related to introspection and confidence? Would you have preferred to study here a 100 years ago not disregarding the exotic status you would have had?
This is somewhat related, for those speaking of moral.
I myself support immigration from rich countries because they have easier to adapt to their new home. Poor people tend to steal and cause trouble because they are poor. If we help them in their own countries they will catch up to us faster. We will probably always be rich, but with out money we can help their countries to get better and make life enjoyable for everyone, not only those we immigrate to our own country.
Also we have our own landsmen to take care of first, we have to make work more attractive for them. Make our countries richer, and spend more money on products that we can send the poor countries so that they can enjoy life and catch up. As I see it now, the more we let this immigration keep on, the more hate grows, safety decreases, and thats not how we want it. If we immigrate a very low amount of people and help them assimilate so that they work and don't do crimes, the hate level will decrease and safety increase.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You forgot to mention the part in which the exchange student comes home and interacts like a madman with every person from his former host country that he stumbles upon.
On a personal note: How much interaction did you have with the natives here and did you meet anyone you considered apt to your expectations? Did you expect Germans to be more eastern european in things related to introspection and confidence? Would you have preferred to study here a 100 years ago not disregarding the exotic status you would have had?
Oh I get along fine with Germans. They are suckers for good or mediocre punch lines, because their thoughts are too tidy to be poetic. I am thankful for being here; in Canada people would have called me an eccentric, but in Germany people merely say that I'm a foreigner.
Germans are closer to the Nordic peoples with respect to confidence and introspection, although they are probably less introverted than Finns or Swedes. To put things in a profane way,
Gauls do something when they're 51% sure of it. Teutons do something when they're 95% sure of it. Finns do something when they're 99.9% sure of it.
I will leave it to a German professor to nail down the exact numbers.
I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore.
There are two skills a long sojourn in Germany helps you achieve: 1) It helps you become better organized. The reputation that Germans have for organization is really founded on necessity: there are many rules, and little flexibility. In an Anglo-Saxon country like Canada, you have a lot of flexibility around the rules. In places like Russia or China, you have can use corruption to circumvent the rules. You can rarely negotiate with Germans about the rules, and you can never bribe them. Germany is a bureaucratic paradise; if you want to achieve anything in Germany you have to work systematically. 2) It helps you become patriotic. People love their native countries more for having been in Germany.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You are clearly racist.
And you are clearly dumb if only thing you can do is calling people racist.
On November 05 2010 07:11 Simplistik wrote: Could you give a reason why "immigrants need to assimilate"? It is certainly not required by law.
Because if you don't assimilate you will have a divided society. in other words, you won't have a society at all.
I don't buy this. There are plenty of divisions in society already, without immigrants: - rich and poor - educated and unskilled - north and south - this city and that city - London and the rest - protestants and catholics
There are literally hundreds of divisions. That comes because people, lo and behold, are different. They are brought up differently. They go to different schools. They have different beliefs. They have different hobbies. In many cases the nationality, the language and the geographic location are the only things that most inhabitants of a country really have in common.
In summary: Society is already divided, yet it functions as a society. Society has not broken down due to immigrants.
Any other arguments for "immigrants need to assimilate"?
Most of you forget that some of muslims/arabs/russians invest a lot of money to UK. And part of social benefits come from these money. If your government will cut down on immigrants no one will invest money coz there are no workers. Immigrants are pretty cheap in terms of payment. No wonder that a lot of rich arabs have enough power to establish their own community.
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: But when we have graduates who are working in fucking £6-7 per hour jobs, things have to change. But what politician has the spine to do that.
Probably because most of the degrees people do are pretty much useless as far as making them more employable for anything earning a decent amount. Can't exactly fill the UK with PR / Marketing guys either can we?
There are literally hundreds of divisions. That comes because people, lo and behold, are different. They are brought up differently. In many cases the nationality, the language and the geographic location are the only thing that everybody in a country really has in common.
Most nations are united by the following: Language, literature, race, religion, history, laws and customs.
The UK has not had all of these throughout history, each has a sufficient presence in the national character to create an authentic unity. Ultimately, this unity has proven fairly robust in the last two centuries; rich and poor, north and south, London and country alike fought and died in the World Wars. When the going really counted, nationality has proven a stronger tie than all internal divisions.
The only real alternatives to British cohesion are the counter-nationalisms in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Class consciousness is feeble next to national consciousness. Always has been and probably always will be. (At least in any timespan worth discussing.)
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You are clearly racist.
And you are clearly dumb if only thing you can do is calling people racist.
On November 05 2010 08:25 lowercase wrote: I would personally prefer if all immigration was banned (or at least made extremely difficult), not for racist reasons but for economic ones. A smaller workforce equals higher wages for the workers, and a better life overall. The problem is that "those in power" need a swelling workforce to keep wages down and provide a market for their products. The only thing preventing the doors from being wide open is these same people's xenophobic fear of the very people they need to allow entry for to make money.
This argument is completely incorrect. Wages, prices, production, and wealth simply don't work that way - especially in a global economy.
Actually, it pretty much is true. Every job that can be outsourced to another country cheaper, WILL be outsourced, unless there is a pressing reason to do it at home, i.e.: it cannot be outsourced.
More people equals lower wages, straight up. If you don't believe me, go to a part of your country that has a labour shortage and see how much more money you can make. Or go to India and see how much people are willing to work for. Since we don't have enough babies, population growth is compensated for by immigration, to keep wages at a competitive level (among other things).
On November 06 2010 03:49 MoltkeWarding wrote: I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore. .
I think this is only true in part. I would rather say that a lack of reciprocity is less concealed here than in the non germanic western world. The automatism that bridges conversations and relations of people from different clienteles is maybe less functional for a larger group of people here than in other cultures, so the forms can become chorelike, as you say, faster. I'm not sure what you mean by german caution regarding conversation, in my experience they go on limbs with the best of them. This may be a misconception because you haven't met many people of your social and intellectual peer with whom your relation is more natural thus needn't be bridged.
Sweden will be in pretty 'bad' shape with all the immigrants in the future and Finland where i live, is following the same path. Shitloads of people not doing any work or going to school etc, doing crimes and all that stuff. But then there is those who actually work, study and live normal life like rest of us.
I've seen news and stuff about some parts of European countries being so crowded with immigrants that there is no way that for example: Fire department or Police cant go without getting some resistance. Houses losing value, etc. This is the worst case scenario, what i don't want to see happening.
But i'm also one of those, who agree if you come as a immigrant to another country, you commit a crime -> you will be sent back. Simple as that. Some European country took this 'law' recently. Swtizerland or so.
But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
On November 06 2010 04:58 Grettin wrote: But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
So do we deport natural-born citizens when they commit crimes?
I find the "it's not our fault, it's theirs!!" mentality in the OP very disturbing. People like to use arguments like that at home as well. Anyway, I'm a foreign exchange student in the UK and while there are quite a lot of beggars and hobos on the streets every single one of them is native British. Talking to the cleaners and kitchen staff in my college (they are invariably immigrants) it seems like many of them need to work two jobs to stay afloat. I know who I respect more.
On November 06 2010 04:58 Grettin wrote: But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
So do we deport natural-born citizens when they commit crimes?
Well it sounded like that, but of course not.(and yes, it was kinda stupid question) It helps prisons to not get overpopulated.
There is always a place to send immigrants back if they commit a crime, but who the hell would take prisoners from other countries?
Country gave the immigrant chance to start a new life, without danger etc. If he screws it up with doing crimes there, why would the country put him to prison when they can just send him back. Saves money, "saves 'room'" for the next douche.
On November 06 2010 03:49 MoltkeWarding wrote: I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore. .
I think this is only true in part. I would rather say that a lack of reciprocity is less concealed here than in the non germanic western world. The automatism that bridges conversations and relations of people from different clienteles is maybe less functional for a larger group of people here than in other cultures, so the forms can become chorelike, as you say, faster.
It is not chore-like to converse, if you have the right kind of conversation. The best thing to do with a German is to be grave, for Germans are excellent in gravity but clumsy in levity. Whatever the humour of your voice, they generally give your words the proper contemplation.
It's true that the automatic spontaneity of chatterers may be dull, but so can a barren and conventional heaviness. It's not concentration which transcends dullness, but ability in general. The genius of levity is poetic, the genius of gravity is profound. In my experience Germans prefer digging deep to soaring high.
The most rare sort of genius to be found among the Germans is esprit, and because this form of genius is so rare, they may become accustomed to regard verbal eagerness as the quality of imbeciles.
There are a fair number of Germans who would prefer to be extroverted, but they are not very good at it. German flirting is nauseatingly bad.
P.S. You see I would have been perfectly happy to have been born in Germany, but I was raised to be dissatisfied. I blame my excessive mobility. Being a dual- or triple- patriot is as unfeasible as bigamy or trigamy. It teaches you to seek satisfaction from without rather than from within.
There's a simple fact that needs to be understood, people don't live along if they're TOO different. This is not an opinion, but a truth that is supported by hundreds of statistics (see White Flight).
"Multiculturalism" doesn't exist in the UK. At first glance, you would have the illusion of a multicultural society, but if you looked at it more closely you would realise that what looked like a multicultural society is in fact the existence of several segregated mini Pakistan-mini India-mini Somalia. The emergence of these is quite simple, once the number of unassimilated X becomes too important in an area, natives leave it because they don't feel like they're in Britain anymore. So a new Xistan-Xia is born.
Integration doesn't equal absolute assimilation, but if no assimilation of any kind is required to become British, except being able to speak English, then I guess that I'm a fully integrated British, thus the whole idea of being British loses all it's meaning. That might be a good prelude for a civil war.
EPT
