On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
it's easy to get in if you come via a rickety fishing vessel from Indonesia
The main problem is dealing with douchebags (those than won't work, abuse welfare, steal tax dollars, make crime) whether they are immigrants or natives as someone else touched on. Step foot in a GP clinic for a week and you'll see that "spongers" come in all ethnicities and backgrounds.
But then when you have a system in place that can be abused, you can be damn well sure it will be, such is human nature, be it a benefits system that is easy to cheat or a legal system helps criminals more than victims. Top tip to fight recession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore + Rope (£30 / 220m coil) + Cremation (£380 each) = Big savings.
Immigration is fine in itself, but it exposes how superbad some other policies in the UK are.
On November 05 2010 07:02 Kipsate wrote: Alright first of all, the first generation of workers in the 60s were encouraged by the goverment to do those jobs wihch would not be done by the ''rich'' people, theyre legal sons and daughters are as much british(or whatever nationality) and have as much right on everything as you.
Sure,immigration should be controlled, because if not it will run out of hand but those people you talk about from the first generation and even theyre parents who have a britisch nationality aswell have as much right as you on the goods of the society. The fact that some of them don't work but only live off the wage we give them is a problem yes, but its not only an immigrant problem but a problem for the british people.
And ofcourse, whatcha going to do about it? deport them to there ''own country''? they have nothing there,no job no house no living it is immoral, not to mention that consitution wise it is impossible.
On November 05 2010 06:16 BlackJack wrote: The most popular baby name in Britain is Mohammed
Number 16 actually. Oliver is the most popular name this year(usually its Jack)
It's number 16 and also neglects the fact that like 90% of muslims name their child Mohammed.
On November 05 2010 07:04 bokeevboke wrote: I think Brits themselves are quite violent and mean, at least this is my impression after watching movies and football fans. Then you have immigrants who see whats going there then act accordingly.
Please don't judge our entire country by gangster/criminal movies and football hooligans
My main problem is the people that want to impose Islam on us all...so you fled your own country because of Islam and now you want to turn the UK into an Islamic country? ok....
This thread is playing with fire a little, hope people can be mature . Its a real subject of interest for me as a student in social science,
The main problem I have with most 'anti-immigration' people is that it clearly ISN'T about people claiming benefits, it is about non-british people (very loose term) claiming benefits.
In my mind, a 'born-and-bred' white, british family living on the welfare and not even trying to get employed work or improve their situation is every bit as bad as someone who moved here with the intention of leeching off the welfare system. Both are a huge problem and a parasite on the country and their local communities - it doesnt matter where you come from, your background or your ethnicity, only your actions and intentions. A leech is a leech.
Yes, of course nobody should be allowed to move here just for the welfare, but I really cannot feel negative about immigration when it is a HUGE boost to our economy. We need these hard working people, who take jobs that 'arrogant' natives will not - if you go to somewhere like Heathrow Airport, you will find about 80% of the staff are migrants, working the long shifts and low-skill works. We need immigration to function as a nation, it really is that simple.
It is so easy to pick on a few people and then tar everyone with a similar brush, the vast majority of immigrants today (this is separate from asylum seekers) have a high level of needed skills, and partake in gainful employment once settled here. There is no disputing that, its a simple fact. It is exceedingly difficult to settle in this country without valid employment visa's, work permits or skill tests.
What IS giving immigration a negative image is second and third generation immigrants who moved here (as was their right) as citizens of the empire - and a few generations down the line as everybit as entrenched in the welfare system as native people. These people are thoroughly naturalized, in that to call them non-native is incorrect. They are also 'born-and-bred' britains (in that they were born here, went through british schools, partook in british culture, media and livestyles), and to say that there is any difference between their life on welfare and a white native's is the blur of the line between race-discussions and migration-discussions.
On November 05 2010 08:25 lowercase wrote: I would personally prefer if all immigration was banned (or at least made extremely difficult), not for racist reasons but for economic ones. A smaller workforce equals higher wages for the workers, and a better life overall. The problem is that "those in power" need a swelling workforce to keep wages down and provide a market for their products. The only thing preventing the doors from being wide open is these same people's xenophobic fear of the very people they need to allow entry for to make money.
This argument is completely incorrect. Wages, prices, production, and wealth simply don't work that way - especially in a global economy.
i think its allright as long as people can adapt to law, culture , but there is a lot of those who cant and i think goverment should take care of theese.
On November 05 2010 06:51 Adeeler wrote: Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
You shouldn't be selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
The rioting works both ways, and I find it kind of sickening to think we allow people to live and take taxpayers money, just to throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting in the middle of a commemoration for our dead soldiers, yes they are a minority but they should NOT be allowed to stay in our country.
Those riots are the EDL & UAF, not immigrants rioting though I don't get what the makeup of the UAF is but the EDL is all white middle aged men. Both groups seem to always want to start a commotion but at least the values of one aren't abhorrent.
Protesting in the middle of a commemoration is disgusting but you should also realise what british soldiers have/are doing is equally disgusting in the eyes of those on the recieving end of the UK's foreign policies. The correct response is to acknowledge both parties have there reasons and not be blindly patriotic just for patriotism's sake. Patriotism in this day and age is such a ridiculous concept knowing what we know about what all out governments get up to.
It's actually #1 if you include the different spellings of it. You're just splitting hairs.
And if you take all the other spellings of names it's still not number 1. And even if it was, that tells you nothing about the immigration status of the child. The only reason you brought it up, I would assume, is because in your mind Mohammed = black Muslim immigrant, where in actuality you cant really be certain on any of that. Further, if the statistic was actually correct (UK census disagrees btw) it would still be an irrelevant factor on the point of immigration.
When people talk about assimilating in to British culture, it is generally assumed they mean, white, Christian and western values maybe emulating the activities of the native majority, and as such label those expressing the desire of assimilation as racists. This is both incorrect and dangerous.
It is incorrect, because for the most part it's not what is meant. When young people go and die while trying to fight for their country (whether you agree that's what they're doing or not isn't important to my point) and then they see people completely hidden in foreign garb with signs threatening both the dead soldiers, the living relatives and the whole country it's very difficult to look past the fact they aren't 'British', and by that I mean whatever your definition of British ness is the event looks clearly foreign, often intentionally so. When it is said that immigrants should adapt to the host country, it almost universally is a expression of wanting to live without divide, without confrontation and without such malice. Racism doesn't express itself as the desire for others to assimilate a culture and live harmoniously, and it is normally quite apparent even if the words cant be found, that those who state the view are not racist and are probably getting sick of being called it.
Now the reason I said it was dangerous is significantly easier to explain. If you tell someone they're a racist, and you tell them the BNP or UKIP are racists, maybe they'll begin to believe you and look at what they have to offer. You cant just ignore people's concerns and label them a racist without any risk or consequence, it's exactly what the extremists play on. Finally, one piece of clarification, I am not saying people who want assimilation are stupid, easily led, or latent racists, I'm only meaning that a portion of people will become disaffected and look towards people who will listen, agree, and try to indoctrinate.
They are for the most part not racists, so please be careful with your wording.
I also want to quickly add a non-exhaustive list of benefits 99% of all immigrants are excluded from, as the benefit issue is brought up a lot:
Income Support Income-based Job Seekers Allowance Housing Benefit Council Tax Credits Social Fund Disability Living Allowance Attendance Allowance Carer's Allowance Non-contributory incapacity benefit Working Families' Tax Credit Disabled Person's Tax Credit Child Benefit
The cost of immigration to the UK economy is hard to measure, but even most groups advocating for further immigration control will admit to it being an income rather than an expenditure, though figures tend to range from about the £6 billion a year mark to about even (£0) in my experience, depending on which source you look up and what they're including in the figures.
On the actual subject though, I'm not pro immigration, but I don’t want to prevent people living wherever they want, in this country or any other and I'll explain.
When someone chooses to migrate, they're often choosing to leave behind the country they grew up in, friends and family, and any semblance of stability for at least a while in order to move to a country in which they will be a foreign person with no real ties to anything. That's a big commitment and isn't something people just wake up one morning and decide to do, so there tend to be fairly big reasons.
Usually it's simply an economic thing, either there aren't enough jobs or decent infrastructure to support their families and they want to move to somewhere which seems to be able to offer a better life, or in the case of immigrants no one ever complains about, they simply get offered a job because of how qualified they are for it. There are of course other reasons, including war, fear, and personal issues, but in general people move emigrate because they have to, not because in an ideal world they would choose to, and that is why I am not pro immigration.
(Here's where I lose my audience )
In my opinion, these issues are almost universally the result of global capitalisms failure to provide for people around the world. Failing states; lacking schools, water, electricity, homes, decent jobs, healthcare and infrastructure in general, often also sporting corruption and massive debt problems too are the main cause of immigration, and I believe that wherever people are born they should have a right to those basic lacking points, and more. I don’t think we should tolerate living in a world where we choose to allow massive companies billions of pounds in profit off the backs of the poor, while at the same time ignoring the fact that we more than have the resources and ability to fix these problems in the world.
If that was done I believe immigration would drop substantially to the point where most of it would be temporary job placements where needed, or just moving for love and happiness.
I am English and I can state unquivocally English people can be as or more dysfunctional as immigrants. Benefits are high in this country, always have been, there is bound to be exploitation. Also I thought you had to be a citizen to claim benefits and generally government bodies have a system to weed out fraudsters. The real issue is poor government control. Besides I also live in London and rarely find immigrants to be racist, the real scumbags of England are more racist than I have ever seen an immigrant to be, and they are English.
This isnt the real problem in UK right now, it is the increase in university fees. This is due to the labour government allowing everybody under the sun financial aid and not discriminating between a useful course and what frankly is a waste of time and money.
At least they are citizens in the UK. In the U.S. the unskilled immigrants are illegal and don`t pay taxes and take up too many jobs. They don`t have enough money to pay for their health care so it in return will raise ours.
Immigration is a tricky business. You need some to help the economy run but you cant let enough in to mess everything up.
I do believe there needs to be more done to encourage integration, simply for society to function. I don't care about skin colour, religion, food, sports team or any of that bullshit. What I do care about is the creation of cultural island within the country which then allows a separate identity to foster further isolating the occupants. The problem is a situation in which immigrants and their children do not feel the schools are their schools, the council is their council, the laws are their laws. For the institutions of this country to have any meaning for them they need to be 'their' institutions. What I'm describing is the separation of civic identity from cultural identity, to thrive in a country you must adopt its civic identity and unfortunately that can be difficult for many who are unwilling to try.
When it comes down to it I'd basically like to see more immigrants becoming parent governors of the schools they send their children to, more of them joining the police or taking part in neighbourhood policing schemes, more in local government and politics. They don't have to take on British culture (do we even have one?) but they do have to make themselves a part of British society.
Edit: On a related note, this alienation from broader society isn't simply an immigrant problem. It allow happens in low income areas which stagnate. It's far easier to milk the system while at the same time resenting it and growing violent towards it if you feel like it's not your system and any alienated group will suffer from the same problems.
This +drug problem is the same problem in the U.S. I think it should just be highly regulated and not let people in or kick em out if they fail or don't work. Integrate and work or gtfo.
On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
Australia: 6.13 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) Canada: 5.64 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) New Zeland: 2.3 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United Kingdom: 2.61 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United States: 4.25 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)
Anyway....
I agree with the other people in this thread who talk about the natives being the biggest arseholes. And I'd take it one step further. I want even more immigrants because I'm sick of white and Aboriginal Australians mugging me and breaking into my home, or just being drunken thugs. I feel much safer in neighborhoods with lots of Vietnamese and Arabs than I do in the burbs filled with white and Aboriginal scumbags.
As for mooching the welfare system, it appears to me that the primary recipients of unemployment benefits and public housing are, again, "bogans" or "chavs" and Aboriginal Australians. I don't think I've ever seen any Asians, Indians, etc. in the dole office. Of course, this is just conjecture, like the OP's post. So until there's some factual information about who receives the most state aid, the conversation isn't going to go much further than personal experience.
The first generation will never truly integrate but you should start worrying when their grand kids still have trouble with main stream society.
As an immigrant I think the issue lies with both sides. On one side you don't have enough support in areas where immigrant really needs help and other the other hand you spoon feed them when they least need it.
Encourage integration, make it economically viable to do so. Give tax break to immigrants that put more efforts into studying English or whatever and TEST them and allocate resources and jobs for them so integration would benefit their lives immediately.
Parts of London are nearly as dangerous as Somalia? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? London is comparatively a very safe and stable environment, which is very well surveyed.
On November 05 2010 23:50 undyinglight wrote: Parts of London are nearly as dangerous as Somalia? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? London is comparatively a very safe and stable environment, which is very well surveyed.
yeah, that part of the OP is absurdly hyperbolic. parts of all major cities are dangerous, yes, but lol at bringing race into it
On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
Australia: 6.13 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) Canada: 5.64 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) New Zeland: 2.3 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United Kingdom: 2.61 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United States: 4.25 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)
Anyway....
I agree with the other people in this thread who talk about the natives being the biggest arseholes. And I'd take it one step further. I want even more immigrants because I'm sick of white and Aboriginal Australians mugging me and breaking into my home, or just being drunken thugs. I feel much safer in neighborhoods with lots of Vietnamese and Arabs than I do in the burbs filled with white and Aboriginal scumbags.
As for mooching the welfare system, it appears to me that the primary recipients of unemployment benefits and public housing are, again, "bogans" or "chavs" and Aboriginal Australians. I don't think I've ever seen any Asians, Indians, etc. in the dole office. Of course, this is just conjecture, like the OP's post. So until there's some factual information about who receives the most state aid, the conversation isn't going to go much further than personal experience.
~_~, Which city do you live in? Melbourne public housing in pretty much entirely filled with Africans and Vietnamese. Criminals can came from any background, for every Asian safe neighbourhood, there are also 10 more safe white neighbourhoods...
EPT
. Its a real subject of interest for me as a student in social science,
)
