Right, before I start, I really want to state that I am not a racist at all (Thats what we get called when we try and talk about the subject here, but I can assure you that two of my best friend are of Chinese and Indian decent however, they have been born and bred in th UK), I have no extremist views and I want to approach this in the most open minded way possible. I also want to know opinion on this from other people from the UK, Europe and all over the world. The benefits of immigration is obvious, we import skilled workers from all over the world and have them put their skills to work here and over the years, this has really helped us as a country. It has helped us develope, it has helped our healthcare system become one of the if not the best in the world and the NHS would collapse over night if immigrant workers were taken away. This process is crucial to any country that wishes to sustain a stable economy. These workers also normally come from countries that are stable and respect if not practice western values (countires such as India, Japan, Western Europe ect ect) Then we get the "unskilled" immigrants that our government started letting in on the mass scale after the 1960's. These workers normally do the jobs that no British person want to do and will work for minimum wage for most of the time. However, some of these immigrants choose not to work at all and lunge off our benefits and healthcare system. These immigrants normally come from more hostile countries such as Somalia, Zimbabwe or the middle east. This is when the problems begin I appeichiate that most "non-skilled" immigrants come to work hard and earn a better life but some of these people dont wish to adapt and live like british people, but instead want to transfer the life of their native country to the streets of Britain. There are such places in major UK cities such as London, Birmingham, Bradford, Leicster and Leeds where you will get beaten and spat on for being a native brit and crossing over into immigrant territories. These places are nearly as dangerous as Somalia, The middle east or wherever the immigrants come from. Another problem with mass immigration is that neibourhoods change overnight and native people are forced to leave because of rise in violence and crime. There are pockets developing all over England that are no longer safe to go because of this. The immigrants that populate these areas are first generation immigrants from dangerous countries and because there is nothing else in the neibourhood, their children grow into dangerous criminals awell. An example of this process is in many London boroughs such as Hackney (47.1%) and Brent (30.9%) where the first generation immigrant population outnumber the native population. As for places you may know, Aston as in Aston Villa football cub has less than 20% of the popuation as British and Wembley as in Wembley Stadium has less than 5% of the population as British. There is also 220 school in England and Wales where 5% or less of the kids speak English (source = The Daily Telegraph so dont troll). The main problem in all of this is that the Government just refuses to talk about the situation that has been developing over that last few decades and wrapps themselves up in political correctness, they need to learn that it isnt racist to talk about a problem, like hopefully, I am proving here. One final thing, there is a government funded group called the UAF (Unite Against Fascism), irronically, they do this by being fascist. They riot in the streets and accuse people who have different view to their own of being racist. They think it should be a crime to fly the Union Jack as it may offend immigrants. Thanks for reading and leave comments please.
Also, I got most if not all of my facts here from Wikipedia, if you doubt them, please check them up.
This is definitely a touchy subject. It seems like there are a lot of people who don't realize that some of the immigrants come in with absolutely no intention of assimilating into the new culture, working a job, or contributing to the economy. I'm all for letting immigrants of all skill/education levels come in, but I wish the U.S. had some sort of guest worker program that would allow these people to pay into the government programs they are benefiting from, which would in turn grant them expedited citizenship and they could become a full part of the system.
Those who immigrate and don't contribute to our society or economy and especially those who commit crimes in our country should be deported as soon as possible. I would imagine many citizens in the UK feel the same way.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
Having grown up near one of these immigrant areas i can confirm at least in my case that it is effectivly like walking into a different country where suddenly you are the minority. I think one of the biggest causes for this running out of control is something you highlighted early, NO ONE wants to talk about immigration out of fear of been called a racist, the country and government is under the grip of political correctness (eg:a simple nursery rhyme had to be changed from black sheep to rainbow sheep).
The big problem is identifying the hard working ones and the scrounging ones on an individual basis which would be very costly to an already strapped government cutting funding to all areas, as for the immigrant neighbourhoods i dont know what can fix it now it has reached such a level, and measures should just be put in place to hopefully prevent it happening elsewhere as the generations to come mix into society better.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
How is telling the truth hate speech, im not trying to incite hate and I have no intension to. If immigrants work hard, obey they law and contribute to society, I have no problem.
On November 05 2010 06:28 nekuodah wrote: Having grown up near one of these immigrant areas i can confirm at least in my case that it is effectivly like walking into a different country where suddenly you are the minority. I think one of the biggest causes for this running out of control is something you highlighted early, NO ONE wants to talk about immigration out of fear of been called a racist, the country and government is under the grip of political correctness (eg:a simple nursery rhyme had to be changed from black sheep to rainbow sheep).
The big problem is identifying the hard working ones and the scrounging ones on an individual basis which would be very costly to an already strapped government cutting funding to all areas, as for the immigrant neighbourhoods i dont know what can fix it now it has reached such a level, and measures should just be put in place to hopefully prevent it happening elsewhere as the generations to come mix into society better.
I agree. Also, your no longer allowed to do the christmas play in schools because it may "offend" minority students. They are trying to change the name of christmas to "winter festival" in some places. WTF is this, I mean c'mon. Immigrants should adapt to our culture, not the other way around.
I guess with the good comes the bad. Immigration is a necessity but you have to also deal with the related shit.
As I'm sure most of us know, the reason we need immigrants is to keep a steady population. But the same qualities that cause immigrants to have lots of kids also makes them somewhat of a nuisance.
btw, the shit you describe is present in Toronto as well
I agree. But its not just a UK problem, similar things are ocurring in places like paris, melbourne, sydney by different races and religions but common bad attitudes.
Immigration policy in this country is a joke, but so is your layout, if you don't use paragraphs people will not want to read your essay so please use the enter key sometimes, it really helps.
Citing London as an indicator of the UK is a complete joke, the place is about as non British as you can get. Its a global city of course its going to be a multicultural hub.
Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
Also where exactly are there super dangerous areas in London etc i've lived here for 30 years and have yet to see anything like this and i've been to the most run down areas you could ever see in london and the north. London USED to have some areas like that for ethnic minorities in the old days of the Crays and the subsequent gangs but in the last decade real foreign gangs came in wiped all those cunts out and you can go around all over the place quite safely thanks to it.
You shouldn't be so selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
On November 05 2010 06:51 Adeeler wrote: Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
You shouldn't be selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
The rioting works both ways, and I find it kind of sickening to think we allow people to live and take taxpayers money, just to throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting in the middle of a commemoration for our dead soldiers, yes they are a minority but they should NOT be allowed to stay in our country.
Lol....first of all what a sad, depressing post to make.
You know the other day I was walking round Edinburgh, and Manchester a while back, and London a bit before that, and I walked past people from all different countries and cultures, speaking different languages to eachother in the street and practicing different religions at home. And you know what was funny, it made me really happy. Was like a hopeful moment where you thought everyone was going to get on and be OK.
There's this ridiculous notion of preserving British values and having pride in ones country. What is there possibly to be proud of? Do you know what the union jack has stood for over the centuries? And even now, look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Are you proud to be involved there? Basically any kind of patriotism is just you saying that your culture is better than everyone elses and that your people deserve preferential treatment. Why the fuck should we preserve British culture at the exclusion of others? What is that possibly going to do. Do you really think that due to Muslim immigration we won't have Christmas in a hundred years?
Now you say we should clamp down on lazy immigrants. Why not clamp down on the 100x greater number of lazy British people, who have no intention of working ever. Seriously, I know you say there are ghetto areas of big cities that you'll be attacked in (btw, they've always been there) but do you actually think immigrants are even remotely to blame for the majority of societies problems? Even the tiny minority of immigrants who cause problems don't significantly contribute.
Ok, now the next retarded point of your post. These people come from dangerous countries...so therefore they shouldn't be let in because they bring violence with them?
There are no such things as hostile countries btw. There are hostile people yes, and they exist everywhere, but do you think people from Somalia are hostile in general?
Personally, I say bring immigration on. Diversifies the country, brings people over actually willing to work, you can experience a greater spectrum of cultures and it fills the country with people that all have different attitudes to you. There are downsides yes, and yes they should learn English and accept British customs, but almost all do. And overall you just have to be overly patriotic/stupid/gullible to believe that immigration is even one of the serious problems facing the country today.
Immigration actually adds value to the economy if you look at it statistically also "throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting...." I've yet to see any of this happen personally. I know the daily mail and the rest of the murdoc media kicks up a big fuss over these so called "sponges" but really now, Britain is built on its multiculturalism and saying things like that is just juvenile.
Alright first of all, the first generation of workers in the 60s were encouraged by the goverment to do those jobs wihch would not be done by the ''rich'' people, theyre legal sons and daughters are as much british(or whatever nationality) and have as much right on everything as you.
Sure,immigration should be controlled, because if not it will run out of hand but those people you talk about from the first generation and even theyre parents who have a britisch nationality aswell have as much right as you on the goods of the society. The fact that some of them don't work but only live off the wage we give them is a problem yes, but its not only an immigrant problem but a problem for the british people.
And ofcourse, whatcha going to do about it? deport them to there ''own country''? they have nothing there,no job no house no living it is immoral, not to mention that consitution wise it is impossible.
I think Brits themselves are quite violent and mean, at least this is my impression after watching movies and football fans. Then you have immigrants who see whats going there then act accordingly.
I am from central asia, I study in Singapore. Locals are very nice and polite people, even the most addicted football fans act very nicely. By the way Singapore is full of immigrants. Who are from same countries you mentioned and they never cause any trouble.
On November 05 2010 06:51 Adeeler wrote: Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
You shouldn't be selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
The rioting works both ways, and I find it kind of sickening to think we allow people to live and take taxpayers money, just to throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting in the middle of a commemoration for our dead soldiers, yes they are a minority but they should NOT be allowed to stay in our country.
Those riots are the EDL & UAF, not immigrants rioting though I don't get what the makeup of the UAF is but the EDL is all white middle aged men. Both groups seem to always want to start a commotion but at least the values of one aren't abhorrent.
Protesting in the middle of a commemoration is disgusting but you should also realise what british soldiers have/are doing is equally disgusting in the eyes of those on the recieving end of the UK's foreign policies. The correct response is to acknowledge both parties have there reasons and not be blindly patriotic just for patriotism's sake. Patriotism in this day and age is such a ridiculous concept knowing what we know about what all out governments get up to.
Ow yeah,don't forget that the media loves to point out every single thing the immigrants do wrong in your country but speak nothing of what they do right.
On November 05 2010 07:01 bmml wrote: Immigration actually adds value to the economy if you look at it statistically also "throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting...." I've yet to see any of this happen personally. I know the daily mail and the rest of the murdoc media kicks up a big fuss over these so called "sponges" but really now, Britain is built on its multiculturalism and saying things like that is just juvenile.
It is not juvenile by any stretch of the imagination, how the fuck do you think the families of the dead felt when these goons showed up protesting as the dead were walked down the streets. As long as our government takes a back seat on issues such as this and immigration as a whole, it isn't going to get better. We need a reform on how the system works, one like Australia has would work wonders but I guess we are also constrained by EU law on the matter.
I live in south Florida, it has seen constant immigration from all over south and central America. Mainly Cuba, Mexico and Haiti. I totally agree with the sentiment that if you come here for a better life, fine, but live the better life. Don't bring 3rd world lifestyle into my neighborhood and expect a warm welcome. (Chickens running around the streets! Seriously!?). I'm a 3rd generation American, of Irish decent. My son is half Mexican, I'm not racist. (and I LOVE Latino women ) I think people who use the "race card" to get their way are pathetic!
It does take time though, sometimes a generation, for assimilation to occur. In some circumstances, it's hard to find patience for it. (Roosters waking me up, grrrrrr!)
On November 05 2010 07:01 bmml wrote: Immigration actually adds value to the economy if you look at it statistically also "throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting...." I've yet to see any of this happen personally. I know the daily mail and the rest of the murdoc media kicks up a big fuss over these so called "sponges" but really now, Britain is built on its multiculturalism and saying things like that is just juvenile.
It is not juvenile by any stretch of the imagination, how the fuck do you think the families of the dead felt when these goons showed up protesting as the dead were walked down the streets. As long as our government takes a back seat on issues such as this and immigration as a whole, it isn't going to get better. We need a reform on how the system works, one like Australia has would work wonders but I guess we are also constrained by EU law on the matter.
How do you think the families of the dead civilians in Iraq & Afganistan feel? 2 ways streets; take the equal moral stance rather then trying to say only Western ppls feelings matter in the current world situation.
As a foreign student in the UK, I can say that the immigration system here reminds me a lot of DRM in that it is unnecessarily complicated, inefficient and gives much more headache to the legit students and workers than to those who wish to abuse it, because it is easily abused if that is your goal.
I think that the government should be stricter in regards to what foreign people actually do while they are in the UK rather than inventing yet more ridiculous certificates that you need to attach to your visa application. They should crack down on the fishy universities and businesses whose goal is just to let people enter the country, keep checking regularly that the people who came to the UK to study actually study (they introduced an attendance control system in the universities recently, which I believe is a step in the right direction) and the people who came to work actually work.
Although I guess that is more easily said than done, it is not that easy to force someone to get out of the country without making too much noise.
And, although this may sound hypocritical coming from an immigrant, I understand your sentiments very well.
On November 05 2010 07:04 bokeevboke wrote: I think Brits themselves are quite violent and mean, at least this is my impression after watching movies and football fans. Then you have immigrants who see whats going there then act accordingly.
I am from central asia, I study in Singapore. Locals are very nice and polite people, even the most addicted football fans act very nicely. By the way Singapore is full of immigrants. Who are from same countries you mentioned and they never cause any trouble.
I miss SEA, lived there as a kid and visited Singapore from KL/Bangkok. Although the image of the UK in movies can often be distorted it really is a massive jump in general decency when moving from SEA'ian countries back to the UK, Quite sad really .
On November 05 2010 07:01 bmml wrote: Immigration actually adds value to the economy if you look at it statistically also "throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting...." I've yet to see any of this happen personally. I know the daily mail and the rest of the murdoc media kicks up a big fuss over these so called "sponges" but really now, Britain is built on its multiculturalism and saying things like that is just juvenile.
It is not juvenile by any stretch of the imagination, how the fuck do you think the families of the dead felt when these goons showed up protesting as the dead were walked down the streets. As long as our government takes a back seat on issues such as this and immigration as a whole, it isn't going to get better. We need a reform on how the system works, one like Australia has would work wonders but I guess we are also constrained by EU law on the matter.
Blaming the majority of immigrants for the actions of a minority is a bad basis for mass deportation. I don't deny the immigration laws in this country aren't altogether working however I completely disagree that current immigration law and an increase in Islamic extremism are related.
On November 05 2010 07:14 Reborn8u wrote: I live in south Florida, it has seen constant immigration from all over south and central America. Mainly Cuba, Mexico and Haiti. I totally agree with the sentiment that if you come here for a better life, fine, but live the better life. Don't bring 3rd world lifestyle into my neighborhood and expect a warm welcome. (Chickens running around the streets! Seriously!?). I'm a 3rd generation American, of Irish decent. My son is half Mexican, I'm not racist. (and I LOVE Latino women ) I think people who use the "race card" to get their way are pathetic!
It does take time though, sometimes a generation, for assimilation to occur. In some circumstances, it's hard to find patience for it. (Roosters waking me up, grrrrrr!)
Don't forget how america was founded. On the near complete genocide of the native population. If your son was deported to mexico for the next 20 years and then got to come back would you give him a warm welcome or the welcome you were eluding to earlier cos he's a bit different for a generation?
On November 05 2010 06:51 Adeeler wrote: Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
You shouldn't be selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
The rioting works both ways, and I find it kind of sickening to think we allow people to live and take taxpayers money, just to throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting in the middle of a commemoration for our dead soldiers, yes they are a minority but they should NOT be allowed to stay in our country.
I don't you think you understand. Just because the majority of the country don't think that marmite is the best thing ever, doesn't mean that me as a resident of said country can't think that it is. It can be argued that they are jerks, but throwing jerks out of the country is a little extreme. Also a word on british "culture" of course it exists, but define it as a unchanging entity is absurd, if anything Britain is the complete opposite of cultural hegemony, trying to ring fence it and saying what British culture is and isn't, is dangerous and should only be done very carefully.
Also, on the "I have (name your minority of choice here) friend, so I can't be racist/sexist/a bigot" is silly, I don't think you should define your friendship in such a manner, that a single trait of their personality comes first, also the assumption that by being friends you don't withhold any of your bigoted views should be addressed.
I don't know, man. I lived in the UK for almost five years - a few years in Brent and a few years in Fulham (both in London for those who don't know.)
The most dangerous people I ever encountered were drunken asshole native brits and native brits who were under the age of about 17. These are guys who would stuff a pint glass in your face or chavver kids who would stab you with a knife without thinking. These tended to be the majority of murders in the areas I lived in, anyway, and the two times people tried to mug me while I was there they fell into this category as well - native brits.
I wouldn't say that immigrants were any more dangerous, per capita, than the native population. I would also say with certainty that the immigrant and new-generation immigrant population as a whole were much harder working and more ambitious than native brits, the latter of whom more often displayed attitudes of entitlement and a loathesome attitude towards work than their immigrant counterparts.
The news makes a lot of noise about the issue but in my own observation the facts simply don't support any of the arguments.
What I learned from Red Alert 3, British people are obsessed with tea.
Jokes aside, the problem is not with the UK alone. I am sure the government is aware of this as well. Those people are most likely refugees from the past.
Welcome to the world of common perceptions of immigration. I don't know what the immigration situation has historically been in Europe, but I know in the US these sorts of sentiments about immigrants are as old as the country itself. In the 19th century, everyone was worried about the Irish and Italians causing crime and not assimilating. Now no one complains about either of those groups. These perceptions are just a side effect of immigration itself. At least in the US, history has taught us that it's not a really big deal and that eventually the problems associated with immigrant groups go away. Really the issues with immigration are more of a symptom of poverty than problems with immigration itself.
I wouldn't say that immigrants were any more dangerous, per capita, than the native population. I would also say with certainty that the immigrant and new-generation immigrant population as a whole were much harder working and more ambitious than native brits, the latter of whom more often displayed attitudes of entitlement and a loathesome attitude towards work than their immigrant counterparts.
Could not have said it better myself. I moved across Canada to live in Vancouver(Highest pop. of immigrants in Canada) for 2 years after college. Vast majority of people "native" to the lower-main-land (just the bottom high pop. part of BC[Burnaby,NewWest,Surrey and so on]) were arrogant and felt that immigrants and even Canadians not native to BC didnt belong there or opinions were not even really anything to consider. That being said it does NOT mean that immigrants are these great people who come to our native countries looking to make a better life; yes most are and do just that. However I agree with the OP in that there are those that immigrate from poor and corrupt countries and have learned to survive in any way possible, coming to a new country that has benefits/healthcare/un-employment/ and we cant forget the white cultures greatest fear .... being seen as racist. You take all that and toss in a opportunistic Immigrant with zero moral center and you get murder, organized crime, fraud and other terrible things that the papers love to flood our eyes and ears with.
I mean come on, this whole thread is rather silly, all countries that are developed and offer its citizens the benefits and securities that we are acustom too become threatened(in our eyes) when they see preferencial treatment go to immigrants. It happens in Canada all the time, live with it! common quit crying , it will be ok! countries have been accepting immigrants and refugees since before your great-great-great-great-great-great grand daddy was so much as a single cell in his dads balls. so suck it up buttercup things are not going to change any time soon, and if they do its because were at war again. and who wants that ? Besides if you honestly believe the OP is that crazy and out of whack look at what is going on in Arizona right now.
Also as a final note my only serious gripe about immigrants is when they come to a new country and have no idea how to speak the language nor try to learn. or pretend not to speak english, ya im looking at all you chinese people. I KNOW you all speak english ive been to china and they speak better english then we do! I mean common how can you move some where and not learn an even basic understanding of the language?
i am, as cain0 puts it - a first generation immigrant. i moved to england from russia when i was 9, i am now 19. my mother worked for an international civil engineering consultancy firm. they offered her a job in the uk and her and myself subsequently moved here. i do not have much recollection of my upbringing in russia, i consider myself to have been brought up in england. i consider myself (and legally am) a british citizen. i am fully integrated into british society, to the point where i am often seen as more "british" than my actual native friends and peers. i whole-heartedly agree with cain0's post. it is a sort of unwritten legislation not to advertise or even indicate your "britishness" in fear of some refugee being offended and running to the political correctness police. this also applies to religion, in a country where the head of state is christian one finds himsellf in an increasingly anti-christian society. i am not the biggest fan of islam (OMG RACIST!!11ONE) and few of you will wonder why. but the fact that people have to be cautious of areas of london or brdford they pass through for fear of a religious ttck and not one with a criminal intent, is simply unaxceptable. i personally blame this on the labour govt, their red tape and cherry picked application of socialist ideology. unless the tories miraculously win the next election, the inceeasingly irrepairable damage to british society will never be seen to.
On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
it's easy to get in if you come via a rickety fishing vessel from Indonesia
The main problem is dealing with douchebags (those than won't work, abuse welfare, steal tax dollars, make crime) whether they are immigrants or natives as someone else touched on. Step foot in a GP clinic for a week and you'll see that "spongers" come in all ethnicities and backgrounds.
But then when you have a system in place that can be abused, you can be damn well sure it will be, such is human nature, be it a benefits system that is easy to cheat or a legal system helps criminals more than victims. Top tip to fight recession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore + Rope (£30 / 220m coil) + Cremation (£380 each) = Big savings.
Immigration is fine in itself, but it exposes how superbad some other policies in the UK are.
On November 05 2010 07:02 Kipsate wrote: Alright first of all, the first generation of workers in the 60s were encouraged by the goverment to do those jobs wihch would not be done by the ''rich'' people, theyre legal sons and daughters are as much british(or whatever nationality) and have as much right on everything as you.
Sure,immigration should be controlled, because if not it will run out of hand but those people you talk about from the first generation and even theyre parents who have a britisch nationality aswell have as much right as you on the goods of the society. The fact that some of them don't work but only live off the wage we give them is a problem yes, but its not only an immigrant problem but a problem for the british people.
And ofcourse, whatcha going to do about it? deport them to there ''own country''? they have nothing there,no job no house no living it is immoral, not to mention that consitution wise it is impossible.
On November 05 2010 06:16 BlackJack wrote: The most popular baby name in Britain is Mohammed
Number 16 actually. Oliver is the most popular name this year(usually its Jack)
It's number 16 and also neglects the fact that like 90% of muslims name their child Mohammed.
On November 05 2010 07:04 bokeevboke wrote: I think Brits themselves are quite violent and mean, at least this is my impression after watching movies and football fans. Then you have immigrants who see whats going there then act accordingly.
Please don't judge our entire country by gangster/criminal movies and football hooligans
My main problem is the people that want to impose Islam on us all...so you fled your own country because of Islam and now you want to turn the UK into an Islamic country? ok....
This thread is playing with fire a little, hope people can be mature . Its a real subject of interest for me as a student in social science,
The main problem I have with most 'anti-immigration' people is that it clearly ISN'T about people claiming benefits, it is about non-british people (very loose term) claiming benefits.
In my mind, a 'born-and-bred' white, british family living on the welfare and not even trying to get employed work or improve their situation is every bit as bad as someone who moved here with the intention of leeching off the welfare system. Both are a huge problem and a parasite on the country and their local communities - it doesnt matter where you come from, your background or your ethnicity, only your actions and intentions. A leech is a leech.
Yes, of course nobody should be allowed to move here just for the welfare, but I really cannot feel negative about immigration when it is a HUGE boost to our economy. We need these hard working people, who take jobs that 'arrogant' natives will not - if you go to somewhere like Heathrow Airport, you will find about 80% of the staff are migrants, working the long shifts and low-skill works. We need immigration to function as a nation, it really is that simple.
It is so easy to pick on a few people and then tar everyone with a similar brush, the vast majority of immigrants today (this is separate from asylum seekers) have a high level of needed skills, and partake in gainful employment once settled here. There is no disputing that, its a simple fact. It is exceedingly difficult to settle in this country without valid employment visa's, work permits or skill tests.
What IS giving immigration a negative image is second and third generation immigrants who moved here (as was their right) as citizens of the empire - and a few generations down the line as everybit as entrenched in the welfare system as native people. These people are thoroughly naturalized, in that to call them non-native is incorrect. They are also 'born-and-bred' britains (in that they were born here, went through british schools, partook in british culture, media and livestyles), and to say that there is any difference between their life on welfare and a white native's is the blur of the line between race-discussions and migration-discussions.
On November 05 2010 08:25 lowercase wrote: I would personally prefer if all immigration was banned (or at least made extremely difficult), not for racist reasons but for economic ones. A smaller workforce equals higher wages for the workers, and a better life overall. The problem is that "those in power" need a swelling workforce to keep wages down and provide a market for their products. The only thing preventing the doors from being wide open is these same people's xenophobic fear of the very people they need to allow entry for to make money.
This argument is completely incorrect. Wages, prices, production, and wealth simply don't work that way - especially in a global economy.
i think its allright as long as people can adapt to law, culture , but there is a lot of those who cant and i think goverment should take care of theese.
On November 05 2010 06:51 Adeeler wrote: Other then drinking alcohol, going to pubs every other day, and clubs on the weekend, watching the footie; what is British Culture?
Are you saying immigrants should all start drinking and going to pubs and clubs and becoming football/pop culture fans to be cultured? Coat it how ever you want your trying cover up racism.
UAF(Unite Against Facists) exists cos (EDL)English Defence League exists. EDL is new rally holding BNP group made by the racists rioting in the streets in any place with ethnic communities simply to try and incite hatred.
You shouldn't be selective in the so called facts you give, its really obvious.
The rioting works both ways, and I find it kind of sickening to think we allow people to live and take taxpayers money, just to throw it back in our faces by rioting and protesting in the middle of a commemoration for our dead soldiers, yes they are a minority but they should NOT be allowed to stay in our country.
Those riots are the EDL & UAF, not immigrants rioting though I don't get what the makeup of the UAF is but the EDL is all white middle aged men. Both groups seem to always want to start a commotion but at least the values of one aren't abhorrent.
Protesting in the middle of a commemoration is disgusting but you should also realise what british soldiers have/are doing is equally disgusting in the eyes of those on the recieving end of the UK's foreign policies. The correct response is to acknowledge both parties have there reasons and not be blindly patriotic just for patriotism's sake. Patriotism in this day and age is such a ridiculous concept knowing what we know about what all out governments get up to.
It's actually #1 if you include the different spellings of it. You're just splitting hairs.
And if you take all the other spellings of names it's still not number 1. And even if it was, that tells you nothing about the immigration status of the child. The only reason you brought it up, I would assume, is because in your mind Mohammed = black Muslim immigrant, where in actuality you cant really be certain on any of that. Further, if the statistic was actually correct (UK census disagrees btw) it would still be an irrelevant factor on the point of immigration.
When people talk about assimilating in to British culture, it is generally assumed they mean, white, Christian and western values maybe emulating the activities of the native majority, and as such label those expressing the desire of assimilation as racists. This is both incorrect and dangerous.
It is incorrect, because for the most part it's not what is meant. When young people go and die while trying to fight for their country (whether you agree that's what they're doing or not isn't important to my point) and then they see people completely hidden in foreign garb with signs threatening both the dead soldiers, the living relatives and the whole country it's very difficult to look past the fact they aren't 'British', and by that I mean whatever your definition of British ness is the event looks clearly foreign, often intentionally so. When it is said that immigrants should adapt to the host country, it almost universally is a expression of wanting to live without divide, without confrontation and without such malice. Racism doesn't express itself as the desire for others to assimilate a culture and live harmoniously, and it is normally quite apparent even if the words cant be found, that those who state the view are not racist and are probably getting sick of being called it.
Now the reason I said it was dangerous is significantly easier to explain. If you tell someone they're a racist, and you tell them the BNP or UKIP are racists, maybe they'll begin to believe you and look at what they have to offer. You cant just ignore people's concerns and label them a racist without any risk or consequence, it's exactly what the extremists play on. Finally, one piece of clarification, I am not saying people who want assimilation are stupid, easily led, or latent racists, I'm only meaning that a portion of people will become disaffected and look towards people who will listen, agree, and try to indoctrinate.
They are for the most part not racists, so please be careful with your wording.
I also want to quickly add a non-exhaustive list of benefits 99% of all immigrants are excluded from, as the benefit issue is brought up a lot:
Income Support Income-based Job Seekers Allowance Housing Benefit Council Tax Credits Social Fund Disability Living Allowance Attendance Allowance Carer's Allowance Non-contributory incapacity benefit Working Families' Tax Credit Disabled Person's Tax Credit Child Benefit
The cost of immigration to the UK economy is hard to measure, but even most groups advocating for further immigration control will admit to it being an income rather than an expenditure, though figures tend to range from about the £6 billion a year mark to about even (£0) in my experience, depending on which source you look up and what they're including in the figures.
On the actual subject though, I'm not pro immigration, but I don’t want to prevent people living wherever they want, in this country or any other and I'll explain.
When someone chooses to migrate, they're often choosing to leave behind the country they grew up in, friends and family, and any semblance of stability for at least a while in order to move to a country in which they will be a foreign person with no real ties to anything. That's a big commitment and isn't something people just wake up one morning and decide to do, so there tend to be fairly big reasons.
Usually it's simply an economic thing, either there aren't enough jobs or decent infrastructure to support their families and they want to move to somewhere which seems to be able to offer a better life, or in the case of immigrants no one ever complains about, they simply get offered a job because of how qualified they are for it. There are of course other reasons, including war, fear, and personal issues, but in general people move emigrate because they have to, not because in an ideal world they would choose to, and that is why I am not pro immigration.
(Here's where I lose my audience )
In my opinion, these issues are almost universally the result of global capitalisms failure to provide for people around the world. Failing states; lacking schools, water, electricity, homes, decent jobs, healthcare and infrastructure in general, often also sporting corruption and massive debt problems too are the main cause of immigration, and I believe that wherever people are born they should have a right to those basic lacking points, and more. I don’t think we should tolerate living in a world where we choose to allow massive companies billions of pounds in profit off the backs of the poor, while at the same time ignoring the fact that we more than have the resources and ability to fix these problems in the world.
If that was done I believe immigration would drop substantially to the point where most of it would be temporary job placements where needed, or just moving for love and happiness.
I am English and I can state unquivocally English people can be as or more dysfunctional as immigrants. Benefits are high in this country, always have been, there is bound to be exploitation. Also I thought you had to be a citizen to claim benefits and generally government bodies have a system to weed out fraudsters. The real issue is poor government control. Besides I also live in London and rarely find immigrants to be racist, the real scumbags of England are more racist than I have ever seen an immigrant to be, and they are English.
This isnt the real problem in UK right now, it is the increase in university fees. This is due to the labour government allowing everybody under the sun financial aid and not discriminating between a useful course and what frankly is a waste of time and money.
At least they are citizens in the UK. In the U.S. the unskilled immigrants are illegal and don`t pay taxes and take up too many jobs. They don`t have enough money to pay for their health care so it in return will raise ours.
Immigration is a tricky business. You need some to help the economy run but you cant let enough in to mess everything up.
I do believe there needs to be more done to encourage integration, simply for society to function. I don't care about skin colour, religion, food, sports team or any of that bullshit. What I do care about is the creation of cultural island within the country which then allows a separate identity to foster further isolating the occupants. The problem is a situation in which immigrants and their children do not feel the schools are their schools, the council is their council, the laws are their laws. For the institutions of this country to have any meaning for them they need to be 'their' institutions. What I'm describing is the separation of civic identity from cultural identity, to thrive in a country you must adopt its civic identity and unfortunately that can be difficult for many who are unwilling to try.
When it comes down to it I'd basically like to see more immigrants becoming parent governors of the schools they send their children to, more of them joining the police or taking part in neighbourhood policing schemes, more in local government and politics. They don't have to take on British culture (do we even have one?) but they do have to make themselves a part of British society.
Edit: On a related note, this alienation from broader society isn't simply an immigrant problem. It allow happens in low income areas which stagnate. It's far easier to milk the system while at the same time resenting it and growing violent towards it if you feel like it's not your system and any alienated group will suffer from the same problems.
This +drug problem is the same problem in the U.S. I think it should just be highly regulated and not let people in or kick em out if they fail or don't work. Integrate and work or gtfo.
On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
Australia: 6.13 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) Canada: 5.64 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) New Zeland: 2.3 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United Kingdom: 2.61 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United States: 4.25 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)
Anyway....
I agree with the other people in this thread who talk about the natives being the biggest arseholes. And I'd take it one step further. I want even more immigrants because I'm sick of white and Aboriginal Australians mugging me and breaking into my home, or just being drunken thugs. I feel much safer in neighborhoods with lots of Vietnamese and Arabs than I do in the burbs filled with white and Aboriginal scumbags.
As for mooching the welfare system, it appears to me that the primary recipients of unemployment benefits and public housing are, again, "bogans" or "chavs" and Aboriginal Australians. I don't think I've ever seen any Asians, Indians, etc. in the dole office. Of course, this is just conjecture, like the OP's post. So until there's some factual information about who receives the most state aid, the conversation isn't going to go much further than personal experience.
The first generation will never truly integrate but you should start worrying when their grand kids still have trouble with main stream society.
As an immigrant I think the issue lies with both sides. On one side you don't have enough support in areas where immigrant really needs help and other the other hand you spoon feed them when they least need it.
Encourage integration, make it economically viable to do so. Give tax break to immigrants that put more efforts into studying English or whatever and TEST them and allocate resources and jobs for them so integration would benefit their lives immediately.
Parts of London are nearly as dangerous as Somalia? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? London is comparatively a very safe and stable environment, which is very well surveyed.
On November 05 2010 23:50 undyinglight wrote: Parts of London are nearly as dangerous as Somalia? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? London is comparatively a very safe and stable environment, which is very well surveyed.
yeah, that part of the OP is absurdly hyperbolic. parts of all major cities are dangerous, yes, but lol at bringing race into it
On November 05 2010 06:26 Cain0 wrote: Australian system is the best in the world by a mile. Its easier to crawl up a badgers arse than get in that country. But I agree, many immigrants dont have the intension of working and go out of their way to be "offended".
Australia: 6.13 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) Canada: 5.64 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) New Zeland: 2.3 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United Kingdom: 2.61 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.) United States: 4.25 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.)
Anyway....
I agree with the other people in this thread who talk about the natives being the biggest arseholes. And I'd take it one step further. I want even more immigrants because I'm sick of white and Aboriginal Australians mugging me and breaking into my home, or just being drunken thugs. I feel much safer in neighborhoods with lots of Vietnamese and Arabs than I do in the burbs filled with white and Aboriginal scumbags.
As for mooching the welfare system, it appears to me that the primary recipients of unemployment benefits and public housing are, again, "bogans" or "chavs" and Aboriginal Australians. I don't think I've ever seen any Asians, Indians, etc. in the dole office. Of course, this is just conjecture, like the OP's post. So until there's some factual information about who receives the most state aid, the conversation isn't going to go much further than personal experience.
~_~, Which city do you live in? Melbourne public housing in pretty much entirely filled with Africans and Vietnamese. Criminals can came from any background, for every Asian safe neighbourhood, there are also 10 more safe white neighbourhoods...
On November 05 2010 23:06 Iyerbeth wrote:Racism doesn't express itself as the desire for others to assimilate a culture and live harmoniously, and it is normally quite apparent even if the words cant be found, that those who state the view are not racist and are probably getting sick of being called it.
I'm not sure. Every time I hear someone trot out the "assimilation" line, I ask just what is involved in "assimilating" and it usually boils down to "speak the language, obey the laws, wear the right clothes". That's fine and all, but the underlying assumption is that immigrants are willfully not learning the language or willfully not obeying laws. These implicit assumption is often tied to racist beliefs. My suspicions are solidifying when I notice the assimilation rhetoric is never directed towards natives who equally often and equally fail to meet the criteria of "assimilation".
Personally I don't care if people are racists. I just don't like obscurantism and the language they dress it up in. I'm much more comfortable with someone coming out and saying "I don't like immigrants because they're all criminals and bludgers" than someone who masks these beliefs under a rhetoric of "assimilation".
On November 05 2010 23:35 KwarK wrote: I do believe there needs to be more done to encourage integration, simply for society to function. I don't care about skin colour, religion, food, sports team or any of that bullshit. What I do care about is the creation of cultural island within the country which then allows a separate identity to foster further isolating the occupants. The problem is a situation in which immigrants and their children do not feel the schools are their schools, the council is their council, the laws are their laws. For the institutions of this country to have any meaning for them they need to be 'their' institutions. What I'm describing is the separation of civic identity from cultural identity, to thrive in a country you must adopt its civic identity and unfortunately that can be difficult for many who are unwilling to try.
When it comes down to it I'd basically like to see more immigrants becoming parent governors of the schools they send their children to, more of them joining the police or taking part in neighbourhood policing schemes, more in local government and politics. They don't have to take on British culture (do we even have one?) but they do have to make themselves a part of British society.
Edit: On a related note, this alienation from broader society isn't simply an immigrant problem. It allow happens in low income areas which stagnate. It's far easier to milk the system while at the same time resenting it and growing violent towards it if you feel like it's not your system and any alienated group will suffer from the same problems.
Well said. More integration and community is important for society in general, this is not really an immigration problem. Lack of low skilled jobs, apprenticeships and training opportunity combined with an over-generous benefits system created an expanding "underclass". Too much focus on University for the sake of University and not enough focus on a balanced economy with jobs for all types of people.
Although I do believe immigration is a problem for another reason, overcrowding. The rate of immigration when combined with the current birthrate in the country is unsustainable; somewhere in the near future we will have to look carefully at population control.
For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
On November 06 2010 00:00 haduken wrote:~_~, Which city do you live in? Melbourne public housing in pretty much entirely filled with Africans and Vietnamese. Criminals can came from any background, for every Asian safe neighbourhood, there are also 10 more safe white neighbourhoods...
Pennington in Adelaide. According to the ABS the biggest countries of birth are:
Australian 57.5% Viet Nam 15.3% English 3.2% Bosnian 3.1% Greek 2.0% Italian 2.0%
That's pretty much where I'm calling on my experience. My parents live in a very wealth and very white suburb. And yeah, it's a shitload safer than where I live. Don't have to lock your doors and have bars on your windows etc. But when I'm walking to the supermarket market, I immediately feel in danger whenever I see white "chavs" and Aboriginal teenagers on the street. I'm quite comfortable around the Viets.
I think im getting heavily trolled but i don't really care.
Would you support mass migrations if the migrants had better education than you? Of course this means getting the well paid jobs and relegating some of you to a secondary role in political and economical life?
This scenario applies directly to myself. If i choose to move to XXXXX 1st world country, i could choose my job, and of course i would take the one that has the highest "quality" in terms of Salary and extra Benefits (Health Care, Vacations etc). What im trying to say is that not every migrant is poor or ignorant.
On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote: For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
Cool, I'm from Bristol too. Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
On November 06 2010 00:17 misaTO wrote: I think im getting heavily trolled but i don't really care.
Would you support mass migrations if the migrants had better education than you? Of course this means getting the well paid jobs and relegating some of you to a secondary role in political and economical life?
This scenario applies directly to myself. If i choose to move to XXXXX 1st world country, i could choose my job, and of course i would take the one that has the highest "quality" in terms of Salary and extra Benefits (Health Care, Vacations etc). What im trying to say is that not every migrant is poor or ignorant.
Uhm...
i'm Swiss but we actually search highly educated immigrants because our universities don't create enough...
There is something of a silent implosion of cultural identity in Europe, from the very conditions of cultural scrutiny which has become intellectually respectable throughout Europe.
Thought values the reflection over the action, when the reflection is merely an illusion of reality. Authentic feelings have no articulation, and neither do authentic identities. The moment people are called on to define European or German or English culture, is the moment we start down the path into a void. Seeking self-awareness, we arrive at self-alienation. Thus modern Europe in the course of the immigration debate has become a Hamlet figure, a character of corrupted self-awareness and refined impotence.
Hence it should be no surprise that among the most ardent supporters of immigration are the uprooted, the anti-patriots, the idealists, those who would take comfort in a society which finds itself as pallidly strange as he does, netizens.
Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote: For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
Cool, I'm from Bristol too. Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
Haha no way. I love Bristol, can't see myself moving any time soon, it's just easy to relate national/global issues to the areas around you. Where abouts are you from?
There's been immigration discussion in many countrys lately.If i remember correctly that Norway stated that Somalia is safe country so they dont accepct. Immigrants/refugees from there. Same has happened at Sweden they that tighten immigration policy.
Me personally dont have nothing agaisnt immigration,but i dont like the fact 55% of refugees/immigrants that are from Somalia is unemployed and in the mean time tension between different religions/races is rising :x
On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote: For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
Cool, I'm from Bristol too. Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
Bristol is super weird with regards to violent areas, living in the middleclassville that is Cotham I just can't imagine some of it. That said St Pauls isn't anywhere near as bad as it was when I first came back to the UK some 10 years ago, Its a really nice area for the most part.
(read the following with a "Southern" accent, preferably a Texan one) yall sure do talk funny with your big words and fancy numbers out here in Ameri-cuh, we handle them fer-in-ers the way we ought'er we catch 'em and send 'em back to their fer-in-er lands plus, wer gunna make a big wall on our border, keep 'em out fer good sides, only reason 'ey want ter come ter Ameri-cuh is ter steal jawbs from us Ameri-cuh-ins I say, if 'ey want ter come in er con-trey, mine as well ship 'em back, i got my rights ter carry a gun and i got'ter defend mah coun-trey
Welcome to the viewpoint of about 30% of the citizens of the United States of America and the viewpoint of Sarah Palin one of our next Presidential candidates (god help us). You should all be very happy that in your countries, people can speak intelligently and communicate ideas involving strange concepts like "objectivity", "reason", and "patience".
Is immigration a problem? That is a very generalized and ambiguous question. Everyone will agree that immigration is great if you carefully filter our problem makers i.e. extremists, criminals, unproductive people. The burden such selectivity would place on government infrastructure would huge however and, not to mention practically impossible. Understanding the root issues of why "ill favoured" immigrants flee their countries and go to more civilized ones (read as: any country that has a strong SC community), is the first critical step to reducing the problem. This guy speaks the truth on this issue:
On November 05 2010 23:06 Iyerbeth wrote: In my opinion, these issues are almost universally the result of global capitalisms failure to provide for people around the world. Failing states; lacking schools, water, electricity, homes, decent jobs, healthcare and infrastructure in general, often also sporting corruption and massive debt problems too are the main cause of immigration, and I believe that wherever people are born they should have a right to those basic lacking points, and more. I don’t think we should tolerate living in a world where we choose to allow massive companies billions of pounds in profit off the backs of the poor, while at the same time ignoring the fact that we more than have the resources and ability to fix these problems in the world.
In terms of "here and now" "practical" solutions, countries could go completely fascist and kick out all foreign elements which would cost a huge amount of money, reduce foreign opinion of said country, and cause violent riots on a mass scale. Another route could be immediately halting all future immigration, which would cost huge amounts of money, reduce foreign opinion of said country, and cause violent riots. Or one could always consider the easiest solution of doing nothing and avoiding the huge costs, maintaining foreign opinion and avoiding large scale riots.
Which one would you do? You would probably do what EVERY country in this position does... do nothing.
On November 06 2010 01:23 KaiJa wrote: Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
For immigrants of our sort, there are two alternatives; either transplantation or alienation.
I am an integrated Canadian. By integrated I do not mean that I "feel" normal in relation to autochthons. The feelings of distance and outsiderness have never left my sinews. I do feel more comfortable and natural with white Canadians than I feel with Canadians of my own background. The hybrid discomforts of this status is alienation. It is a sort of loneliness which finds no fellowship in age, race, interests or economic backgrounds. In matters of age one is separated by not beginning with the same concept of childhood and maturity. In race, one feels estranged from one's own. In economic background, the frantic upward mobility of successful immigrants lends no identifiability with a single caste. The immigrant is constantly reinventing himself in terms of social class and social aspirations.
Those who are transplanted within a racial ghetto are effectively colonies. They have the opportunity to pursue a standard of normality within that parallel society, but are effectively cut off from the larger standard of normality within the adoptive nation. It should not be wondered why hosts find the presence of these permanent squatters repulsive.
When exchange students go abroad, they do not interact with the natives of their host countries, but with other uprooted exchange students. Where they find company from their own country, those are usually selected as friends. When one finds no company from one's own country, people from other countries are still preferred to people from the host country. Those lethargic tendencies parallel the fictitious "education" which they receive abroad: exchange students who ought to be studying harder than local students, study hardly at all. There is no motivation to adapt one's mind to the profanities of foreign concepts. The "foreignness" of the typical exchange student's experience may open his mind, but it opens it without really filling it with any committed thoughts. It permits him to look at the whole horizon without permitting him to focus on any part of it.
That is a real evil in uprootedness, and it is also an evil contracted through overusing the internet Nothing deflates authentic patriotism more than living in cyberspace.
On November 06 2010 02:03 MagnusHyperion wrote: (read the following with a "Southern" accent, preferably a Texan one) yall sure do talk funny with your big words and fancy numbers out here in Ameri-cuh, we handle them fer-in-ers the way we ought'er we catch 'em and send 'em back to their fer-in-er lands plus, wer gunna make a big wall on our border, keep 'em out fer good sides, only reason 'ey want ter come ter Ameri-cuh is ter steal jawbs from us Ameri-cuh-ins I say, if 'ey want ter come in er con-trey, mine as well ship 'em back, i got my rights ter carry a gun and i got'ter defend mah coun-trey
Funny, because Texans typically get along pretty well with Mexicans in my experience as a native Texan. Sure, we have the crazies that hate immigrants, but those exist everywhere.
Btw, you should work on your written accent, you sound more like a dwarf than a Texan. No one here says "ter".
Very interesting topic Cain0. But why does it sadden me to see topics like this raised only in internet forums and whispered conversation maybe after a beer or 2 in the pub... Because I feel the vast majority of Brits and just too scared to criticise this pathetic PC culture that the Labour government has created in the past decade. Scared of being branded a racist of course.
Anyway, I am of dual nationality (British and Greek) and have spent 19 years in Greece and 10 in the UK. I have a ton of foreign friends if that matters... The problem with the UK as I see it in everyday life is that there are certain groups (Pakistani, North African and Indian) that just refuse to integrate or that immigration happens after the 3rd generation or something.
Do I think that they need to integrate? Yes, absolutely. Why? Because they live in Britain. End of story. If some minorities want to have keep their wifes unemployed and locked up in their house for life they can go back to the country they came from.
Very simplistic view I know. But I would be lying to myself if I didnt state exactly what I feel.
What I see in the various work environments that I have been is the complete spineless approach that companies show towards certain foreigners. Example: A muslim African demanded, yes demanded, that he takes 2 weeks off because of Ramadan, completely out of his contract. with like 2 days notice. What did the spineless British manager do? Gave him the 2 weeks. obviously out of fear. It made me feel like a complete tool for working for that company and having such a manager. Everybody was thinking the same, some raged, but they all kept quiet.
Another thing that is "advertised" a lot is that the UK relies on foreign skilled workers and therefore immigration from outside the EU is needed. ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. Forgive me for not providing a direct link but I am certain that I read somewhere that only 20% of skilled workers ever work in a job where they are supposingly needed. Most end up in places like supermarkets etc, obviously taking a British job from the most vulnerable. And if it IS true then surely with more countries joining the EU, we dont need to open the borders to "skilled" Africans, Pakistanis and Indians?
Another thing raised already in the thread is the concentration of immigrants in certains parts of the UK. I speak from experience that I have walked into job interviews where the manager interviewing was black, his 2 assistants were black and the 20 people waiting outside where all black apart from me and another guy. Seriously, did you think I had a chance? This was in South London by the way.
You know, if somebody is trying to flee his war-ravaged country and we have space then yeah lets give him/her a home. But when we have graduates who are working in fucking £6-7 per hour jobs, things have to change. But what politician has the spine to do that.
The British are not racist. But this Politically Correct bollocks is making them.
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: Very interesting topic Cain0. But why does it sadden me to see topics like this raised only in internet forums and whispered conversation maybe after a beer or 2 in the pub... Because I feel the vast majority of Brits and just too scared to criticise this pathetic PC culture that the Labour government has created in the past decade. Scared of being branded a racist of course. .
Seriously, I've never understood how people can make that argument with a straight face. The Daily Mail, Independent and even Telegraph carry anti-immigration stories on a regular basis. Every political party in the last election promised to cut immigration (though their policies on how to do differed). The good old "every one is scared to talk about immigration" line has been proven to be bullshit. There's so many articles listing the amount of colum space in news papers devoted to the issue, that it out weights almost every other domestic political issue, besides the obviously huge ones (cutting the decifit, Afganistan).
If everyone is scared to talk about it, why was it the most frequently discussed topic in the last elections debates?
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: And if it IS true then surely with more countries joining the EU, we dont need to open the borders to "skilled" Africans, Pakistanis and Indians?
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure I owe my health to a few skilled Pakistani doctors, I've had over the years. Maybe if the average Englishman would stop being chronically dependent on welfare and go to school and get a job, we wouldn't have such a problem.
On November 06 2010 01:23 KaiJa wrote: Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
For immigrants of our sort, there are two alternatives; either transplantation or alienation.
I am an integrated Canadian. By integrated I do not mean that I "feel" normal in relation to autochthons. The feelings of distance and outsiderness have never left my sinews. I do feel more comfortable and natural with white Canadians than I feel with Canadians of my own background. The hybrid discomforts of this status is alienation. It is a sort of loneliness which finds no fellowship in age, race, interests or economic backgrounds. In matters of age one is separated by not beginning with the same concept of childhood and maturity. In race, one feels estranged from one's own. In economic background, the frantic upward mobility of successful immigrants lends no identifiability with a single caste. The immigrant is constantly reinventing himself in terms of social class and social aspirations.
Those who are transplanted within a racial ghetto are effectively colonies. They have the opportunity to pursue a standard of normality within that parallel society, but are effectively cut off from the larger standard of normality within the adoptive nation. It should not be wondered why hosts find the presence of these permanent squatters repulsive.
When exchange students go abroad, they do not interact with the natives of their host countries, but with other uprooted exchange students. Where they find company from their own country, those are usually selected as friends. When one finds no company from one's own country, people from other countries are still preferred to people from the host country. Those lethargic tendencies parallel the fictitious "education" which they receive abroad: exchange students who ought to be studying harder than local students, study hardly at all. There is no motivation to adapt one's mind to the profanities of foreign concepts. The "foreignness" of the typical exchange student's experience may open his mind, but it opens it without really filling it with any committed thoughts. It permits him to look at the whole horizon without permitting him to focus on any part of it.
That is a real evil in uprootedness, and it is also an evil contracted through overusing the internet Nothing deflates authentic patriotism more than living in cyberspace.
You forgot to mention the part in which the exchange student comes home and interacts like a madman with every person from his former host country that he stumbles upon.
On a personal note: How much interaction did you have with the natives here and did you meet anyone you considered apt to your expectations? Did you expect Germans to be more eastern european in things related to introspection and confidence? Would you have preferred to study here a 100 years ago not disregarding the exotic status you would have had?
This is somewhat related, for those speaking of moral.
I myself support immigration from rich countries because they have easier to adapt to their new home. Poor people tend to steal and cause trouble because they are poor. If we help them in their own countries they will catch up to us faster. We will probably always be rich, but with out money we can help their countries to get better and make life enjoyable for everyone, not only those we immigrate to our own country.
Also we have our own landsmen to take care of first, we have to make work more attractive for them. Make our countries richer, and spend more money on products that we can send the poor countries so that they can enjoy life and catch up. As I see it now, the more we let this immigration keep on, the more hate grows, safety decreases, and thats not how we want it. If we immigrate a very low amount of people and help them assimilate so that they work and don't do crimes, the hate level will decrease and safety increase.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You forgot to mention the part in which the exchange student comes home and interacts like a madman with every person from his former host country that he stumbles upon.
On a personal note: How much interaction did you have with the natives here and did you meet anyone you considered apt to your expectations? Did you expect Germans to be more eastern european in things related to introspection and confidence? Would you have preferred to study here a 100 years ago not disregarding the exotic status you would have had?
Oh I get along fine with Germans. They are suckers for good or mediocre punch lines, because their thoughts are too tidy to be poetic. I am thankful for being here; in Canada people would have called me an eccentric, but in Germany people merely say that I'm a foreigner.
Germans are closer to the Nordic peoples with respect to confidence and introspection, although they are probably less introverted than Finns or Swedes. To put things in a profane way,
Gauls do something when they're 51% sure of it. Teutons do something when they're 95% sure of it. Finns do something when they're 99.9% sure of it.
I will leave it to a German professor to nail down the exact numbers.
I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore.
There are two skills a long sojourn in Germany helps you achieve: 1) It helps you become better organized. The reputation that Germans have for organization is really founded on necessity: there are many rules, and little flexibility. In an Anglo-Saxon country like Canada, you have a lot of flexibility around the rules. In places like Russia or China, you have can use corruption to circumvent the rules. You can rarely negotiate with Germans about the rules, and you can never bribe them. Germany is a bureaucratic paradise; if you want to achieve anything in Germany you have to work systematically. 2) It helps you become patriotic. People love their native countries more for having been in Germany.
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You are clearly racist.
And you are clearly dumb if only thing you can do is calling people racist.
On November 05 2010 07:11 Simplistik wrote: Could you give a reason why "immigrants need to assimilate"? It is certainly not required by law.
Because if you don't assimilate you will have a divided society. in other words, you won't have a society at all.
I don't buy this. There are plenty of divisions in society already, without immigrants: - rich and poor - educated and unskilled - north and south - this city and that city - London and the rest - protestants and catholics
There are literally hundreds of divisions. That comes because people, lo and behold, are different. They are brought up differently. They go to different schools. They have different beliefs. They have different hobbies. In many cases the nationality, the language and the geographic location are the only things that most inhabitants of a country really have in common.
In summary: Society is already divided, yet it functions as a society. Society has not broken down due to immigrants.
Any other arguments for "immigrants need to assimilate"?
Most of you forget that some of muslims/arabs/russians invest a lot of money to UK. And part of social benefits come from these money. If your government will cut down on immigrants no one will invest money coz there are no workers. Immigrants are pretty cheap in terms of payment. No wonder that a lot of rich arabs have enough power to establish their own community.
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: But when we have graduates who are working in fucking £6-7 per hour jobs, things have to change. But what politician has the spine to do that.
Probably because most of the degrees people do are pretty much useless as far as making them more employable for anything earning a decent amount. Can't exactly fill the UK with PR / Marketing guys either can we?
There are literally hundreds of divisions. That comes because people, lo and behold, are different. They are brought up differently. In many cases the nationality, the language and the geographic location are the only thing that everybody in a country really has in common.
Most nations are united by the following: Language, literature, race, religion, history, laws and customs.
The UK has not had all of these throughout history, each has a sufficient presence in the national character to create an authentic unity. Ultimately, this unity has proven fairly robust in the last two centuries; rich and poor, north and south, London and country alike fought and died in the World Wars. When the going really counted, nationality has proven a stronger tie than all internal divisions.
The only real alternatives to British cohesion are the counter-nationalisms in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Class consciousness is feeble next to national consciousness. Always has been and probably always will be. (At least in any timespan worth discussing.)
Op makes some slight points followed by complete lies to incite hatred its a common propaganda technique but its obvious nowadays.
"British / Western "Culture"" died out decades ago state what you think it actually is and you'll realise what a bunch of crap your talking about.
The only thing immigrants should do or already be able to do is speak english.
The largest immigration problem in the UK is from Europeans that come here to work or claim benefits. I.e. a Belgian can move to the UK can claim jobseekers from the UK government but the amount they get is double that of a UK citizen claiming the same benefits.
You are clearly racist.
And you are clearly dumb if only thing you can do is calling people racist.
On November 05 2010 08:25 lowercase wrote: I would personally prefer if all immigration was banned (or at least made extremely difficult), not for racist reasons but for economic ones. A smaller workforce equals higher wages for the workers, and a better life overall. The problem is that "those in power" need a swelling workforce to keep wages down and provide a market for their products. The only thing preventing the doors from being wide open is these same people's xenophobic fear of the very people they need to allow entry for to make money.
This argument is completely incorrect. Wages, prices, production, and wealth simply don't work that way - especially in a global economy.
Actually, it pretty much is true. Every job that can be outsourced to another country cheaper, WILL be outsourced, unless there is a pressing reason to do it at home, i.e.: it cannot be outsourced.
More people equals lower wages, straight up. If you don't believe me, go to a part of your country that has a labour shortage and see how much more money you can make. Or go to India and see how much people are willing to work for. Since we don't have enough babies, population growth is compensated for by immigration, to keep wages at a competitive level (among other things).
On November 06 2010 03:49 MoltkeWarding wrote: I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore. .
I think this is only true in part. I would rather say that a lack of reciprocity is less concealed here than in the non germanic western world. The automatism that bridges conversations and relations of people from different clienteles is maybe less functional for a larger group of people here than in other cultures, so the forms can become chorelike, as you say, faster. I'm not sure what you mean by german caution regarding conversation, in my experience they go on limbs with the best of them. This may be a misconception because you haven't met many people of your social and intellectual peer with whom your relation is more natural thus needn't be bridged.
Sweden will be in pretty 'bad' shape with all the immigrants in the future and Finland where i live, is following the same path. Shitloads of people not doing any work or going to school etc, doing crimes and all that stuff. But then there is those who actually work, study and live normal life like rest of us.
I've seen news and stuff about some parts of European countries being so crowded with immigrants that there is no way that for example: Fire department or Police cant go without getting some resistance. Houses losing value, etc. This is the worst case scenario, what i don't want to see happening.
But i'm also one of those, who agree if you come as a immigrant to another country, you commit a crime -> you will be sent back. Simple as that. Some European country took this 'law' recently. Swtizerland or so.
But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
On November 06 2010 04:58 Grettin wrote: But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
So do we deport natural-born citizens when they commit crimes?
I find the "it's not our fault, it's theirs!!" mentality in the OP very disturbing. People like to use arguments like that at home as well. Anyway, I'm a foreign exchange student in the UK and while there are quite a lot of beggars and hobos on the streets every single one of them is native British. Talking to the cleaners and kitchen staff in my college (they are invariably immigrants) it seems like many of them need to work two jobs to stay afloat. I know who I respect more.
On November 06 2010 04:58 Grettin wrote: But i don't mind as long as they work, study and won't commit any crimes like everyone else (including the ones who has born and lived in the country)
So do we deport natural-born citizens when they commit crimes?
Well it sounded like that, but of course not.(and yes, it was kinda stupid question) It helps prisons to not get overpopulated.
There is always a place to send immigrants back if they commit a crime, but who the hell would take prisoners from other countries?
Country gave the immigrant chance to start a new life, without danger etc. If he screws it up with doing crimes there, why would the country put him to prison when they can just send him back. Saves money, "saves 'room'" for the next douche.
On November 06 2010 03:49 MoltkeWarding wrote: I interact with Germans more than normal foreign students, but less than German students. I suspect that the German caution adds to the difficulties of their conversations with Erasmus students. To speak in nothing but certainties is to be the most terrible conversationalist. There is no air of reciprocity without which conversation becomes either a tyranny or a chore. .
I think this is only true in part. I would rather say that a lack of reciprocity is less concealed here than in the non germanic western world. The automatism that bridges conversations and relations of people from different clienteles is maybe less functional for a larger group of people here than in other cultures, so the forms can become chorelike, as you say, faster.
It is not chore-like to converse, if you have the right kind of conversation. The best thing to do with a German is to be grave, for Germans are excellent in gravity but clumsy in levity. Whatever the humour of your voice, they generally give your words the proper contemplation.
It's true that the automatic spontaneity of chatterers may be dull, but so can a barren and conventional heaviness. It's not concentration which transcends dullness, but ability in general. The genius of levity is poetic, the genius of gravity is profound. In my experience Germans prefer digging deep to soaring high.
The most rare sort of genius to be found among the Germans is esprit, and because this form of genius is so rare, they may become accustomed to regard verbal eagerness as the quality of imbeciles.
There are a fair number of Germans who would prefer to be extroverted, but they are not very good at it. German flirting is nauseatingly bad.
P.S. You see I would have been perfectly happy to have been born in Germany, but I was raised to be dissatisfied. I blame my excessive mobility. Being a dual- or triple- patriot is as unfeasible as bigamy or trigamy. It teaches you to seek satisfaction from without rather than from within.
There's a simple fact that needs to be understood, people don't live along if they're TOO different. This is not an opinion, but a truth that is supported by hundreds of statistics (see White Flight).
"Multiculturalism" doesn't exist in the UK. At first glance, you would have the illusion of a multicultural society, but if you looked at it more closely you would realise that what looked like a multicultural society is in fact the existence of several segregated mini Pakistan-mini India-mini Somalia. The emergence of these is quite simple, once the number of unassimilated X becomes too important in an area, natives leave it because they don't feel like they're in Britain anymore. So a new Xistan-Xia is born.
Integration doesn't equal absolute assimilation, but if no assimilation of any kind is required to become British, except being able to speak English, then I guess that I'm a fully integrated British, thus the whole idea of being British loses all it's meaning. That might be a good prelude for a civil war.
On November 06 2010 06:59 TeWy wrote: There's a simple fact that needs to be understood, people don't live along if they're TOO different. This is not an opinion, but a truth that is supported by hundreds of statistics (see White Flight).
"Multiculturalism" doesn't exist in the UK. At first glance, you would have the illusion of a multicultural society, but if you looked at it more closely you would realise that what looked like a multicultural society is in fact the existence of several segregated mini Pakistan-mini India-mini Somalia. The emergence of these is quite simple, once the number of unassimilated X becomes too important in an area, natives leave it because they don't feel like they're in Britain anymore. So a new Xistan-Xia is born.
Integration doesn't equal absolute assimilation, but if no assimilation of any kind is required to become British, except being able to speak English, then I guess that I'm a fully integrated British, thus the whole idea of being British loses all it's meaning. That might be a good prelude for a civil war.
Exactly people think these days that being ethnically British and British citizen is same thing. What is obviously not true.
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: Very interesting topic Cain0. But why does it sadden me to see topics like this raised only in internet forums and whispered conversation maybe after a beer or 2 in the pub... Because I feel the vast majority of Brits and just too scared to criticise this pathetic PC culture that the Labour government has created in the past decade. Scared of being branded a racist of course. .
Seriously, I've never understood how people can make that argument with a straight face. The Daily Mail, Independent and even Telegraph carry anti-immigration stories on a regular basis. Every political party in the last election promised to cut immigration (though their policies on how to do differed). The good old "every one is scared to talk about immigration" line has been proven to be bullshit. There's so many articles listing the amount of colum space in news papers devoted to the issue, that it out weights almost every other domestic political issue, besides the obviously huge ones (cutting the decifit, Afganistan).
If everyone is scared to talk about it, why was it the most frequently discussed topic in the last elections debates?
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: And if it IS true then surely with more countries joining the EU, we dont need to open the borders to "skilled" Africans, Pakistanis and Indians?
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure I owe my health to a few skilled Pakistani doctors, I've had over the years. Maybe if the average Englishman would stop being chronically dependent on welfare and go to school and get a job, we wouldn't have such a problem.
And I agree with you. In fact the doctor I saw a couple of days ago was Indian or Pakistani. But even he was Polish or German I couldnt care less. That is the kind of people of that we need. High skilled workers/experts. This is the positive side of immigration as we are lucky to have these people. But what we also have is tons of completely skill-less people knocking on our borders and ending up living on welfare that you and I pay through our taxes. Those who do work are immediately competing with the less privileged members of our society, the poor, the uneducated who rely on such jobs.
Dont be so quick on judging our people as being lazy. Are you a student or have been? Do you know what kind of graduate unemployment there is at the moment? It is shocking. Have you not seen whats been happening to the job market since late 2008?
What average Englishman are you talking about? You look at your local chavs and you define our whole country?
Have you ever walked around Bradford? You seen those women walk around? It's an embarrassment.
On November 05 2010 06:32 Cain0 wrote: I agree. Also, your no longer allowed to do the christmas play in schools because it may "offend" minority students. They are trying to change the name of christmas to "winter festival" in some places. WTF is this, I mean c'mon. Immigrants should adapt to our culture, not the other way around.
I don't mind the holidays from other cultures celebrated in my country, and I am happy to have them join in mine, but please, at least shut the hell up and deal with the fact that Christmas or whatever is celebrated there and they have Lent, or Kwanzaa etc.
what does Mohammed being the most popular baby name have to do with anything? (btw that includes all the variations of Mohammed, if you split them, then it doesn't come close) All that really shows is that variations of Mohammed are very popular within Muslim families, and that is because one of the main aims of a Muslim is to follow the prophet's example, and to many this includes through naming. To the non-Muslim population there isn't really an equivalent name.
EPT
) I think people who use the "race card" to get their way are pathetic!
. Its a real subject of interest for me as a student in social science,
