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On November 05 2010 23:06 Iyerbeth wrote:Racism doesn't express itself as the desire for others to assimilate a culture and live harmoniously, and it is normally quite apparent even if the words cant be found, that those who state the view are not racist and are probably getting sick of being called it.
I'm not sure. Every time I hear someone trot out the "assimilation" line, I ask just what is involved in "assimilating" and it usually boils down to "speak the language, obey the laws, wear the right clothes". That's fine and all, but the underlying assumption is that immigrants are willfully not learning the language or willfully not obeying laws. These implicit assumption is often tied to racist beliefs. My suspicions are solidifying when I notice the assimilation rhetoric is never directed towards natives who equally often and equally fail to meet the criteria of "assimilation".
Personally I don't care if people are racists. I just don't like obscurantism and the language they dress it up in. I'm much more comfortable with someone coming out and saying "I don't like immigrants because they're all criminals and bludgers" than someone who masks these beliefs under a rhetoric of "assimilation".
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Oh Britain, colonize entire world back in 17th century, complain about immigrants in 21st century.
+ Show Spoiler +jk jk
Actually in my country emigration to the UK is pretty big. Not because we have unskilled fags, it's just because there aren't enough jobs.
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As an immagrent from the UK to Netherlands I can safely say you have no idea what you are talking about.
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On November 05 2010 23:35 KwarK wrote:
I do believe there needs to be more done to encourage integration, simply for society to function. I don't care about skin colour, religion, food, sports team or any of that bullshit. What I do care about is the creation of cultural island within the country which then allows a separate identity to foster further isolating the occupants. The problem is a situation in which immigrants and their children do not feel the schools are their schools, the council is their council, the laws are their laws. For the institutions of this country to have any meaning for them they need to be 'their' institutions. What I'm describing is the separation of civic identity from cultural identity, to thrive in a country you must adopt its civic identity and unfortunately that can be difficult for many who are unwilling to try.
When it comes down to it I'd basically like to see more immigrants becoming parent governors of the schools they send their children to, more of them joining the police or taking part in neighbourhood policing schemes, more in local government and politics. They don't have to take on British culture (do we even have one?) but they do have to make themselves a part of British society.
Edit: On a related note, this alienation from broader society isn't simply an immigrant problem. It allow happens in low income areas which stagnate. It's far easier to milk the system while at the same time resenting it and growing violent towards it if you feel like it's not your system and any alienated group will suffer from the same problems.
Well said. More integration and community is important for society in general, this is not really an immigration problem.
Lack of low skilled jobs, apprenticeships and training opportunity combined with an over-generous benefits system created an expanding "underclass".
Too much focus on University for the sake of University and not enough focus on a balanced economy with jobs for all types of people.
Although I do believe immigration is a problem for another reason, overcrowding. The rate of immigration when combined with the current birthrate in the country is unsustainable; somewhere in the near future we will have to look carefully at population control.
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For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
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On November 06 2010 00:00 haduken wrote:~_~, Which city do you live in? Melbourne public housing in pretty much entirely filled with Africans and Vietnamese. Criminals can came from any background, for every Asian safe neighbourhood, there are also 10 more safe white neighbourhoods...
Pennington in Adelaide. According to the ABS the biggest countries of birth are:
Australian 57.5%
Viet Nam 15.3%
English 3.2%
Bosnian 3.1%
Greek 2.0%
Italian 2.0%
That's pretty much where I'm calling on my experience. My parents live in a very wealth and very white suburb. And yeah, it's a shitload safer than where I live. Don't have to lock your doors and have bars on your windows etc. But when I'm walking to the supermarket market, I immediately feel in danger whenever I see white "chavs" and Aboriginal teenagers on the street. I'm quite comfortable around the Viets.
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I think im getting heavily trolled but i don't really care.
Would you support mass migrations if the migrants had better education than you? Of course this means getting the well paid jobs and relegating some of you to a secondary role in political and economical life?
This scenario applies directly to myself. If i choose to move to XXXXX 1st world country, i could choose my job, and of course i would take the one that has the highest "quality" in terms of Salary and extra Benefits (Health Care, Vacations etc). What im trying to say is that not every migrant is poor or ignorant.
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On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote:
For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin.
Cool, I'm from Bristol too.
Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
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On November 06 2010 00:17 misaTO wrote:
I think im getting heavily trolled but i don't really care.
Would you support mass migrations if the migrants had better education than you? Of course this means getting the well paid jobs and relegating some of you to a secondary role in political and economical life?
This scenario applies directly to myself. If i choose to move to XXXXX 1st world country, i could choose my job, and of course i would take the one that has the highest "quality" in terms of Salary and extra Benefits (Health Care, Vacations etc). What im trying to say is that not every migrant is poor or ignorant.
Uhm...
i'm Swiss but we actually search highly educated immigrants because our universities don't create enough...
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There is something of a silent implosion of cultural identity in Europe, from the very conditions of cultural scrutiny which has become intellectually respectable throughout Europe.
Thought values the reflection over the action, when the reflection is merely an illusion of reality. Authentic feelings have no articulation, and neither do authentic identities. The moment people are called on to define European or German or English culture, is the moment we start down the path into a void. Seeking self-awareness, we arrive at self-alienation. Thus modern Europe in the course of the immigration debate has become a Hamlet figure, a character of corrupted self-awareness and refined impotence.
Hence it should be no surprise that among the most ardent supporters of immigration are the uprooted, the anti-patriots, the idealists, those who would take comfort in a society which finds itself as pallidly strange as he does, netizens.
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Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
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On November 06 2010 00:18 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote:
For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin. Cool, I'm from Bristol too. Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
Haha no way. I love Bristol, can't see myself moving any time soon, it's just easy to relate national/global issues to the areas around you. Where abouts are you from?
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There's been immigration discussion in many countrys lately.If i remember correctly that Norway stated that Somalia is safe country so they dont accepct. Immigrants/refugees from there. Same has happened at Sweden they that tighten immigration policy.
Me personally dont have nothing agaisnt immigration,but i dont like the fact 55% of refugees/immigrants that are from Somalia is unemployed and in the mean time tension between different religions/races is rising :x
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On November 06 2010 00:18 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 00:13 philly5man wrote:
For me, the group of people that are destroying the UK are white chavs. The type that infest council estates, claim on every benefit under the sun and don't even attempt to get a job. In Bristol, as much as there are dangerous areas like St Pauls where crime is high and there are a lot of Black people, the worst areas are places like Knowle West - council estates of White vermin. Cool, I'm from Bristol too. Don't do our city down too much though, we have the highest graduate percentage in the country!
Bristol is super weird with regards to violent areas, living in the middleclassville that is Cotham I just can't imagine some of it. That said St Pauls isn't anywhere near as bad as it was when I first came back to the UK some 10 years ago, Its a really nice area for the most part.
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(read the following with a "Southern" accent, preferably a Texan one)
yall sure do talk funny with your big words and fancy numbers
out here in Ameri-cuh, we handle them fer-in-ers the way we ought'er
we catch 'em and send 'em back to their fer-in-er lands
plus, wer gunna make a big wall on our border, keep 'em out fer good
sides, only reason 'ey want ter come ter Ameri-cuh is ter steal jawbs from us Ameri-cuh-ins
I say, if 'ey want ter come in er con-trey, mine as well ship 'em back, i got my rights ter carry a gun and i got'ter defend mah coun-trey
Welcome to the viewpoint of about 30% of the citizens of the United States of America and the viewpoint of Sarah Palin one of our next Presidential candidates (god help us). You should all be very happy that in your countries, people can speak intelligently and communicate ideas involving strange concepts like "objectivity", "reason", and "patience".
Is immigration a problem? That is a very generalized and ambiguous question. Everyone will agree that immigration is great if you carefully filter our problem makers i.e. extremists, criminals, unproductive people. The burden such selectivity would place on government infrastructure would huge however and, not to mention practically impossible. Understanding the root issues of why "ill favoured" immigrants flee their countries and go to more civilized ones (read as: any country that has a strong SC community), is the first critical step to reducing the problem. This guy speaks the truth on this issue:
On November 05 2010 23:06 Iyerbeth wrote:
In my opinion, these issues are almost universally the result of global capitalisms failure to provide for people around the world. Failing states; lacking schools, water, electricity, homes, decent jobs, healthcare and infrastructure in general, often also sporting corruption and massive debt problems too are the main cause of immigration, and I believe that wherever people are born they should have a right to those basic lacking points, and more. I don’t think we should tolerate living in a world where we choose to allow massive companies billions of pounds in profit off the backs of the poor, while at the same time ignoring the fact that we more than have the resources and ability to fix these problems in the world.
In terms of "here and now" "practical" solutions, countries could go completely fascist and kick out all foreign elements which would cost a huge amount of money, reduce foreign opinion of said country, and cause violent riots on a mass scale. Another route could be immediately halting all future immigration, which would cost huge amounts of money, reduce foreign opinion of said country, and cause violent riots. Or one could always consider the easiest solution of doing nothing and avoiding the huge costs, maintaining foreign opinion and avoiding large scale riots.
Which one would you do? You would probably do what EVERY country in this position does... do nothing.
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On November 06 2010 01:23 KaiJa wrote:
Well I'm a first-generation born Australian of Vietnamese background and share similar sentiments to others in this thread where there should be more of an emphasis on encouraging immigrants to integrate somewhat into a new country. "Integration", or whatever you will call it is a fairly loose term of absolute little meaning since it's incredibly hard to define. But, from my experiences growing up there was a very distinct gap between certain groups simply because people tend to group up based on shared similarities be it age, race, interests, economic backgrounds or whatever.
Just from my perspective I feel a lot has to do with how people are brought up coming from a migrant family, since I came from an extremely relaxed family in comparison to A LOT of other Asian families and I can definitely see a glaring difference between how I am compared to a lot of other people coming from Asian families. I never had to deal with the whole "study your ass off and do nothing else so you can live a good life" that other Asian people had to, which from what I've experienced simply causes them to become more distant from their adopted heritage till their much, much older if even that. :/
For immigrants of our sort, there are two alternatives; either transplantation or alienation.
I am an integrated Canadian. By integrated I do not mean that I "feel" normal in relation to autochthons. The feelings of distance and outsiderness have never left my sinews. I do feel more comfortable and natural with white Canadians than I feel with Canadians of my own background. The hybrid discomforts of this status is alienation. It is a sort of loneliness which finds no fellowship in age, race, interests or economic backgrounds. In matters of age one is separated by not beginning with the same concept of childhood and maturity. In race, one feels estranged from one's own. In economic background, the frantic upward mobility of successful immigrants lends no identifiability with a single caste. The immigrant is constantly reinventing himself in terms of social class and social aspirations.
Those who are transplanted within a racial ghetto are effectively colonies. They have the opportunity to pursue a standard of normality within that parallel society, but are effectively cut off from the larger standard of normality within the adoptive nation. It should not be wondered why hosts find the presence of these permanent squatters repulsive.
When exchange students go abroad, they do not interact with the natives of their host countries, but with other uprooted exchange students. Where they find company from their own country, those are usually selected as friends. When one finds no company from one's own country, people from other countries are still preferred to people from the host country. Those lethargic tendencies parallel the fictitious "education" which they receive abroad: exchange students who ought to be studying harder than local students, study hardly at all. There is no motivation to adapt one's mind to the profanities of foreign concepts. The "foreignness" of the typical exchange student's experience may open his mind, but it opens it without really filling it with any committed thoughts. It permits him to look at the whole horizon without permitting him to focus on any part of it.
That is a real evil in uprootedness, and it is also an evil contracted through overusing the internet 
Nothing deflates authentic patriotism more than living in cyberspace.
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On November 06 2010 02:03 MagnusHyperion wrote:
(read the following with a "Southern" accent, preferably a Texan one)
yall sure do talk funny with your big words and fancy numbers
out here in Ameri-cuh, we handle them fer-in-ers the way we ought'er
we catch 'em and send 'em back to their fer-in-er lands
plus, wer gunna make a big wall on our border, keep 'em out fer good
sides, only reason 'ey want ter come ter Ameri-cuh is ter steal jawbs from us Ameri-cuh-ins
I say, if 'ey want ter come in er con-trey, mine as well ship 'em back, i got my rights ter carry a gun and i got'ter defend mah coun-trey
Funny, because Texans typically get along pretty well with Mexicans in my experience as a native Texan. Sure, we have the crazies that hate immigrants, but those exist everywhere.
Btw, you should work on your written accent, you sound more like a dwarf than a Texan. No one here says "ter".
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Very interesting topic Cain0. But why does it sadden me to see topics like this raised only in internet forums and whispered conversation maybe after a beer or 2 in the pub... Because I feel the vast majority of Brits and just too scared to criticise this pathetic PC culture that the Labour government has created in the past decade. Scared of being branded a racist of course.
Anyway, I am of dual nationality (British and Greek) and have spent 19 years in Greece and 10 in the UK. I have a ton of foreign friends if that matters... The problem with the UK as I see it in everyday life is that there are certain groups (Pakistani, North African and Indian) that just refuse to integrate or that immigration happens after the 3rd generation or something.
Do I think that they need to integrate? Yes, absolutely. Why? Because they live in Britain. End of story. If some minorities want to have keep their wifes unemployed and locked up in their house for life they can go back to the country they came from.
Very simplistic view I know. But I would be lying to myself if I didnt state exactly what I feel.
What I see in the various work environments that I have been is the complete spineless approach that companies show towards certain foreigners. Example: A muslim African demanded, yes demanded, that he takes 2 weeks off because of Ramadan, completely out of his contract. with like 2 days notice. What did the spineless British manager do? Gave him the 2 weeks. obviously out of fear. It made me feel like a complete tool for working for that company and having such a manager. Everybody was thinking the same, some raged, but they all kept quiet.
Another thing that is "advertised" a lot is that the UK relies on foreign skilled workers and therefore immigration from outside the EU is needed. ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. Forgive me for not providing a direct link but I am certain that I read somewhere that only 20% of skilled workers ever work in a job where they are supposingly needed. Most end up in places like supermarkets etc, obviously taking a British job from the most vulnerable. And if it IS true then surely with more countries joining the EU, we dont need to open the borders to "skilled" Africans, Pakistanis and Indians?
Another thing raised already in the thread is the concentration of immigrants in certains parts of the UK. I speak from experience that I have walked into job interviews where the manager interviewing was black, his 2 assistants were black and the 20 people waiting outside where all black apart from me and another guy. Seriously, did you think I had a chance? This was in South London by the way.
You know, if somebody is trying to flee his war-ravaged country and we have space then yeah lets give him/her a home. But when we have graduates who are working in fucking £6-7 per hour jobs, things have to change. But what politician has the spine to do that.
The British are not racist. But this Politically Correct bollocks is making them.
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On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote:
Very interesting topic Cain0. But why does it sadden me to see topics like this raised only in internet forums and whispered conversation maybe after a beer or 2 in the pub... Because I feel the vast majority of Brits and just too scared to criticise this pathetic PC culture that the Labour government has created in the past decade. Scared of being branded a racist of course.
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Seriously, I've never understood how people can make that argument with a straight face. The Daily Mail, Independent and even Telegraph carry anti-immigration stories on a regular basis. Every political party in the last election promised to cut immigration (though their policies on how to do differed). The good old "every one is scared to talk about immigration" line has been proven to be bullshit. There's so many articles listing the amount of colum space in news papers devoted to the issue, that it out weights almost every other domestic political issue, besides the obviously huge ones (cutting the decifit, Afganistan).
If everyone is scared to talk about it, why was it the most frequently discussed topic in the last elections debates?
On November 06 2010 02:52 Psychobabas wrote: And if it IS true then surely with more countries joining the EU, we dont need to open the borders to "skilled" Africans, Pakistanis and Indians?
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure I owe my health to a few skilled Pakistani doctors, I've had over the years. Maybe if the average Englishman would stop being chronically dependent on welfare and go to school and get a job, we wouldn't have such a problem.
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Political correctness is bullshit, but it's a fine line.
I do, however, have to agree with the idea that when you move to a new country you should assimilate. Multiculturalism is a colossal failure.
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EPT
