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Austin10831 Posts
On September 22 2010 23:45 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Every person who has done something terrible should be terrible for the rest of their lives? Why do so many people seem to want to live in a world that obeys some shitty rule like that? That's stupid. When someone does something wrong, you regret that they did something wrong but you shouldn't want the rest of their existence to be terrible, at the very least because that just makes your world worse, but hopefully also because you shouldn't want bad things to happen in general.
Vick could bring so much to the NFL as a unique and exciting QB but some football fans would rather he not be successful, for what? Some personal grudge when they don't even have a personal relationship with him? Because they don't believe in the justice system of the government of the country they live in? These are the reasons you wish the world would all have to watch Kolb play rather than Vick? You are just pessimists who, if you had any influence, would be proclaiming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Luckily you don't have any influence :o
If Vick has an awesome career from here on out, we all benefit.
I don't think calling people stupid for remaining upset with Michael Vick for a number of reasons is a legitimate criticism. What many ATL fans will associate with Vick, along side the superhuman flashes of athletic brilliance, are the displays of disdain and contempt towards those that wanted so much for him to succeed. Michael Vick may have paid his debt to the state, but he's done very little outside the realm of lip service to repair any bonds with his fans or the public at large, which is why so many people are unwilling to look past his mistakes. I don't understand how this attitude makes their life, or the world at large, a worse place at all.
I think part of the "grudge" you're suggesting isn't really personal, but rather the fact that they can't reconcile associating this person and his choices with the rewards we (fairly or not) bestow on celebrities and athletes in this culture, and as a consequence they resoundingly reject Vick as a player and a person (although only one of those has any real relevance here). As nice as it would be to just see Michael Vick as a great QB in a nice football vacuum, we frame everything we see or do in a context and with a history. For every amazing run down the sideline, we're reminded of the middle finger, or "Ron Mexico", or of a multi-millionaire drowning dogs because they weren't fighting well enough.
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On September 23 2010 04:40 Skyze wrote:
I cant believe people are actually arguing in Vick vs Ryan..
Vick's starting Offensive "talent" around him.. Peerless Price.. Warrick Dunn.. TJ Duckett.. Matt LEHR, Shaffer, Weiner, Forney. Roddy white (who admitted himself, his first 3 years he just ate McD's everyday and never trained) ..
Can ANY of those players start on ANY other team? No. Shaffer, Lehr, Dunn, Duckett, Price all played for other teams after the Falcons (teams like the Bucs, Redskins, Browns, Seahwaks, teams that are the worst in the league).. and they all got cut after one season. Thats called talent.
Not to mention the coordinators.. Greg Knapp (OCoord) and Ed Donatell (DCoord).. Look what happened WHEREVER Greg Knapp went in his career..Oakland in 2007, horrible offense. then Seattle in 2009, he made Mora get fired again. The guy is the worst Offensive coordinator in the league, he ruined every QB in Oakland and ruined Matt Hasslebeck, and he was calling the plays for Vick for 3 years. no wonder Vick had bad stats.
Matt Ryan has a top 5 RB in the NFL in Turner, the best TE of all time in Gonzalez, a Roddy White that is probowl calibur now that he doesnt eat McD's every day, and an OLine that was all drafted recently and are finally over 300+ lbs unlike in the Mora era. Not to mention a D that is better than any D in the Vick era.. And Matt ryan loses the first playoff game, then goes 9-7.
Vick brought them to the NFC Champ game with a HORRIBLE team around him, and Matt Ryan cant even get a single playoff win with tons of probowl/hall of fame talent around him?
Stats mean nothing when you have to take in account the talent around the team. Steve Young did great on the Bucs didnt he? What about Montana with the Chiefs?? If you took Tom Brady and put him on the Lions for the past decade, would he win more than 3 games a year? Most likely not. Therefor, you cant talk about Vick's stats. With a talented offense finally around him in Philly, he is putting up career numbers. Wonder why.. maybe a WR/TE that can actually catch the ball, and an OLine that doesnt get pushed back 5 yards every play? A Coordinator that isnt calling the same play every single play??
Vick will put up better stats than Matt Ryan this year, no question, unless he gets injured.
Last I checked, Knapp worked with Steve Young and Jeff Garcia, two mobile QBs who were pretty damn good in the years that he coached them on the Niners. One of them you may recognize as a superbowl winner and HOFer.
And again, besides one year, the D was ranked even with the offense. The 'HORRIBLE' team that he brought to the NFC championship was 14th for the season on defense and 16th for offense. More than balanced enough to get into the playoffs and do damage Stats are your friend.
Now, regarding Vick's talent. Crumpler was a top 5 TE during his whole tenure with Vick at the helm. Price had almost the same averages as his beast year in Buffalo—IE. it wasn't an issue of him not doing anything when it was thrown his way. The only difference was the volume of balls coming his way. Every single year, the Falcons were in the bottom third (and last at least once) for pass attempts, pass yards, completion %, etc. etc. This explains why Roddy White blew the fuck up after Vick and Price were gone. Vick already threw a very limited number of balls, and White was #2 or #3 on the depth chart on game day. Most slot guys don't get more than 45-55 catches on a passing team. His averages are similar each year. He got more passes that were better thrown.
The line that you dirt on was crafted that way to maximize Vick's talents. What good is a 350lb monster Oline that can't pull to create the MANY running holes that they used to a top rushing ofense each year (a rushing offense that was top 10 very easily without Vick's yardage—go look). It makes no sense to have big, heavy pass protection linemen for a QB that runs a lot on a running team.
Your last paragraph is just utter nonsense. You compared the Falcons to the Young era Bucs, which were HISTORICALLY bad, as in regarded among the worst squads ever to suit up... same with the Lions, which have about as many wins in three years as the Falcons did in one year without Vick.
If you're not even gonna bother using stats to back up your argument, and just flat out be wrong about what you're saying, why don't you just save your five minutes and post in another thread??
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On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life?
Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again).
No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why.
This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.)
Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions.
Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right?
All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me.
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On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life? Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again). No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why. This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.) Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions. Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right? All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me.
I've never understood the need for punishment, in the "eye for an eye" sense that you speak of. The only thing in societies interest is that he ceases to commit the crimes he was guilty of in the past. If he never harms another animal or person as a result of his prison sentence or rehabilitation then that's a victory for society at large.
Punishment doesn't benefit anyone but those who would feel some sort of relief from it. It doesn't change what he did, it only satisfies peoples sense of "justice". Peoples feelings aren't important, certainly not more important than a mans life or freedom.
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On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life? Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again). No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why. This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.) Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions. Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right? All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me.
So in your "eye to eye" justice system, are you saying that vick should also be electrocuted and drowned? Should involuntary manslaughter make that person also get accidently killed. What I'm saying is, if people do something wrong, they have to get punished for what they did, and after that, they have the option of going back to what they did and risk getting caught and going to jail again, or they can change themselves. Both options have happened. And I never said Its ok for vick to dogfight just because others around him did it. But im saying its one of the reasons he did it. And since you brought up the civil rights movement, doesn't that mean america changed for the better? You said that people never change. Didn't the people of America change then, and define that racism was wrong?
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On September 23 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:
62% completion against the Lions is like 17% against a real NFL team.
Hey, the lions aren't too bad this year. Had it not been for that call when Calvin Johnson clearly caught the ball, they would have won against chicago
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United States22883 Posts
On September 23 2010 05:29 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:
62% completion against the Lions is like 17% against a real NFL team. Hey, the lions aren't too bad this year. Had it not been for that call when Calvin Johnson clearly caught the ball, they would have won against chicago
Yes, I listen to the 97.1 when I need a good laugh. Lions fans have convinced themselves they're almost 2-0 this season.
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On September 23 2010 05:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life? Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again). No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why. This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.) Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions. Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right? All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me. I've never understood the need for punishment, in the "eye for an eye" sense that you speak of. The only thing in societies interest is that he ceases to commit the crimes he was guilty of in the past. If he never harms another animal or person as a result of his prison sentence or rehabilitation then that's a victory for society at large. Punishment doesn't benefit anyone but those who would feel some sort of relief from it. It doesn't change what he did, it only satisfies peoples sense of "justice". Peoples feelings aren't important, certainly not more important than a mans life or freedom.
Again, this ties in with my "no second chances" view. Sure, everybody has something to say about why strong opinions such as my own are wrong, I'm used to that. Since this no longer seems to be a discussion on why Michael Vick is/is not a terrible person (or maybe it never was...if so, forgive me for derailing the topic), I'll generalize:
Absolutely, my feelings are not important (you did not specify me, but I feel it's fair to assume). I'm not trying to change the world, I'm just posting my opinion in a blog. Regardless, CIVILization should be held to a certain standard of CIVILity. It's not my place, nor your place, nor any single person's place to dictate this standard. Everyone decides. Which obviously indicates that the list of "unforgivable crimes" society adheres to is going to be much shorter than my own. The important thing to note is that little rule they teach us in elementary school..."Majority rules, minority rights". While my opinion of "no second chances" is not the opinion held by the majority here or ANYWHERE, it is still exactly as valid as yours.
I won't even bother going over the massive hole in logic of "people's feelings don't matter" in regards to the families of murder victims.
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On September 23 2010 05:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:29 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:
62% completion against the Lions is like 17% against a real NFL team. Hey, the lions aren't too bad this year. Had it not been for that call when Calvin Johnson clearly caught the ball, they would have won against chicago Yes, I listen to the 97.1 when I need a good laugh. Lions fans have convinced themselves they're almost 2-0 this season.
Yeah, I think the lions are cursed
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On September 23 2010 05:25 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life? Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again). No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why. This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.) Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions. Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right? All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me. So in your "eye to eye" justice system, are you saying that vick should also be electrocuted and drowned? Should involuntary manslaughter make that person also get accidently killed. What I'm saying is, if people do something wrong, they have to get punished for what they did, and after that, they have the option of going back to what they did and risk getting caught and going to jail again, or they can change themselves. Both options have happened. And I never said Its ok for vick to dogfight just because others around him did it. But im saying its one of the reasons he did it. And since you brought up the civil rights movement, doesn't that mean america changed for the better? You said that people never change. Didn't the people of America change then, and define that racism was wrong?
As to your first question, yes that is my opinion. You can ask me again if you're unsure.
For the second part, America is not a person. America is a society in which the minority (civil rights activists) became the majority. Billy the Racist did not change, he's still a racist. The younger generation, who believed in civil rights, merely came to outnumber the generations before it which established and maintained traditions of racism. Nobody changed.
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On September 23 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:38 Jibba wrote:On September 23 2010 05:29 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:
62% completion against the Lions is like 17% against a real NFL team. Hey, the lions aren't too bad this year. Had it not been for that call when Calvin Johnson clearly caught the ball, they would have won against chicago Yes, I listen to the 97.1 when I need a good laugh. Lions fans have convinced themselves they're almost 2-0 this season. Yeah, I think the lions are cursed
So you're saying his original statement about playing good vs the lions means nothing really
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On September 23 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:38 Jibba wrote:On September 23 2010 05:29 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 03:27 Jibba wrote:
62% completion against the Lions is like 17% against a real NFL team. Hey, the lions aren't too bad this year. Had it not been for that call when Calvin Johnson clearly caught the ball, they would have won against chicago Yes, I listen to the 97.1 when I need a good laugh. Lions fans have convinced themselves they're almost 2-0 this season. Yeah, I think the lions are cursed
I think they are just terrible.
Nothing is as entertaining as watching Buffalo bills fans during football season. I have watched the bills give up a ~21 point lead in under 3 minutes of play. I just say and laughed at my roommate for a good 5 minutes.
On topic, I dont follow football much but I really doubt there is any rehabilitation going on with Vic. I think he is smart enough that he wont do it again because he doesn't want to face the consequences, but if he felt any remorse about it he wouldn't have killed those ~20 dogs. I don't really see any reason to ban him from playing, there are lots of other scum bags in sports, but If I was looking to buy his contract I would make sure to have something in there so I could cut in at the slightest hint of bad press. No one wants to be associated with someone who tortures and kills dogs, and if they do it again well then I, as the owner, would be leading the mob with torches and pitch forks so my team doesnt get associated with his bad press
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Osaka27105 Posts
On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans.
Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching).
Hell of a second chance.
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On September 23 2010 06:04 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia. Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans. Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching). Hell of a second chance.
You can't say that his weed in a bottle thing would have changed his entire career. I don't think you can count that as his second chance. Sure he may have gotten suspended or something and paid a fine, but he wouldn't have had to spend 18 months in jail, lost his 130 million dollar contract, and wouldn't have lost all his endorsements. Think about this, he lost all his endorsements and his contract, which would equal to roughly 200 million dollars. And now, this year, he is getting paid 5 million. So he is getting paid arguably about 5 percent of what he would have and would be making. Does your job pay 20 times more than minimum wage? And yes, he is getting paid a lot more than what all of us make because he is a superstar athlete. But, can we do something about it? No, athletics are a lot about genes, and natural skill, so its really hard to be pro at it.
And if you watched that movie Food, Inc. I would definitely call what they do to chickens and cows animal abuse. These animals are fed growth hormones, live in tight packed quarters, and most chickens never see daylight once in their lives. The food companies are really starting to take over a lot of politics and stuff. If you look at who works for the FDA, a lot of those people work for food companies.
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The only thing that irks me with second chances with athletes is that people seem to equate success after their mistake as redemption. Its the things off the field that have to make that happen. Like with Stallworth it seemed like he was really shaken up and remorseful about the whole thing. On his lack of jail time wasn't it also because the guy killed was partially at fault?
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 22 2010 23:45 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Every person who has done something terrible should be terrible for the rest of their lives? Why do so many people seem to want to live in a world that obeys some shitty rule like that? That's stupid. When someone does something wrong, you regret that they did something wrong but you shouldn't want the rest of their existence to be terrible, at the very least because that just makes your world worse, but hopefully also because you shouldn't want bad things to happen in general.
Vick could bring so much to the NFL as a unique and exciting QB but some football fans would rather he not be successful, for what? Some personal grudge when they don't even have a personal relationship with him? Because they don't believe in the justice system of the government of the country they live in? These are the reasons you wish the world would all have to watch Kolb play rather than Vick? You are just pessimists who, if you had any influence, would be proclaiming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Luckily you don't have any influence :o
If Vick has an awesome career from here on out, we all benefit.
I really enjoyed watching Vick play with the Falcons. It's just that years of frustration over his constant injuries, flicking off the fans, and just in general his poor judgment when it comes to his dogfighting scandal are still ingrained in the minds of a lot of Falcons fans. It was just frustrating to see him take us to the NFC Championships one year to an injury in preseason the next year and the Falcons missing out badly on the playoffs. The cycle of uncertainty was always there with Michael Vick, and towards the end some of us fans just got tired of it, even before the entire dogfighting thing.
I hope he can be successful in Philly, but as a longtime Falcons fan, I'll always hate him for a number of reasons. As a person, I think he's total trash and I may never forgive him for what he did, but I hope he's figured things out in his life and he can bring back some of the flair we used to see every week as a player.
Kolb sucks.
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Osaka27105 Posts
On September 23 2010 06:24 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 06:04 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia. Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans. Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching). Hell of a second chance. You can't say that his weed in a bottle thing would have changed his entire career. I don't think you can count that as his second chance. Sure he may have gotten suspended or something and paid a fine, but he wouldn't have had to spend 18 months in jail, lost his 130 million dollar contract, and wouldn't have lost all his endorsements. Think about this, he lost all his endorsements and his contract, which would equal to roughly 200 million dollars. And now, this year, he is getting paid 5 million. So he is getting paid arguably about 5 percent of what he would have and would be making. Does your job pay 20 times more than minimum wage? And yes, he is getting paid a lot more than what all of us make because he is a superstar athlete. But, can we do something about it? No, athletics are a lot about genes, and natural skill, so its really hard to be pro at it. And if you watched that movie Food, Inc. I would definitely call what they do to chickens and cows animal abuse. These animals are fed growth hormones, live in tight packed quarters, and most chickens never see daylight once in their lives. The food companies are really starting to take over a lot of politics and stuff. If you look at who works for the FDA, a lot of those people work for food companies.
While I am aware of the issues in the food industry, I have no problem drawing a line between that and what Vick was charged with. Incomparable in my opinion. And sure, the water bottle incident wouldn't have cost him everything (but it is another example of something a 'regular' member of society would have suffered greatly for).
At the end of the day if he makes his millions, good for him. I do not think he should wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of his life. I just don't want people to be suckered into the 'noble reclamation project' or the Tony Dungy 'second chance' bullshit that the sports media likes to circulate. This is not a noble undertaking, this is a business decision. If he did not possess his physical gifts then the vibe would be completely different. For evidence just look at the millions of ex-cons who scrape by after getting out of work.
And finally, yes, he makes 5% of what he used to (at the moment), but you cannot compare the drop in lifestyle from 200 million - 5 million and say 80k - 20k.
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On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:
if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else.
I think you're in the tiny minority on that one. If Vick had been involved in cock fighting, it never would have made national news, and the NFL wouldn't have cared one bit. Guaranteed. Most Americans have or have had dogs as a pet and treat them like children. When someone abuses dogs, I think people vicariously experience the abuse of their own dog and get outraged. Not only is that feeling irrational, but the fact that very few people care what happens to farm animals makes it hypocritical as well. I know I'm not the first person to bring this up, but I think you guys are too easily dismissing the significance that dogs have in our society.
In any case, Vick was a big deal in Atlanta. Atlanta was a baseball town in the '90s, and no one gave a shit about the Falcons until Vick showed up. Half the fans at games in the mid 2000's had #7 jerseys. Maybe he wasn't the best QB ever there, but he got the city excited about the team for once.
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On September 23 2010 06:55 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:
if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. I think you're in the tiny minority on that one. If Vick had been involved in cock fighting, it never would have made national news, and the NFL wouldn't have cared one bit. Guaranteed.
This is almost as laughably bad as the geniuses who stated that Peyton Manning wouldn't even be suspended if he drowned and shocked little puppies because he's white. I mean, my god.
Please just think for a minute about how utterly ridiculous your statement is.
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On September 23 2010 06:54 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 06:24 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 06:04 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia. Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans. Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching). Hell of a second chance. You can't say that his weed in a bottle thing would have changed his entire career. I don't think you can count that as his second chance. Sure he may have gotten suspended or something and paid a fine, but he wouldn't have had to spend 18 months in jail, lost his 130 million dollar contract, and wouldn't have lost all his endorsements. Think about this, he lost all his endorsements and his contract, which would equal to roughly 200 million dollars. And now, this year, he is getting paid 5 million. So he is getting paid arguably about 5 percent of what he would have and would be making. Does your job pay 20 times more than minimum wage? And yes, he is getting paid a lot more than what all of us make because he is a superstar athlete. But, can we do something about it? No, athletics are a lot about genes, and natural skill, so its really hard to be pro at it. And if you watched that movie Food, Inc. I would definitely call what they do to chickens and cows animal abuse. These animals are fed growth hormones, live in tight packed quarters, and most chickens never see daylight once in their lives. The food companies are really starting to take over a lot of politics and stuff. If you look at who works for the FDA, a lot of those people work for food companies. While I am aware of the issues in the food industry, I have no problem drawing a line between that and what Vick was charged with. Incomparable in my opinion. And sure, the water bottle incident wouldn't have cost him everything (but it is another example of something a 'regular' member of society would have suffered greatly for). At the end of the day if he makes his millions, good for him. I do not think he should wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of his life. I just don't want people to be suckered into the 'noble reclamation project' or the Tony Dungy 'second chance' bullshit that the sports media likes to circulate. This is not a noble undertaking, this is a business decision. If he did not possess his physical gifts then the vibe would be completely different. For evidence just look at the millions of ex-cons who scrape by after getting out of work. And finally, yes, he makes 5% of what he used to (at the moment), but you cannot compare the drop in lifestyle from 200 million - 5 million and say 80k - 20k.
I think sports is about second chances though. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He is remembered as a great nba player and 5 time champion now, instead of a rapist. I think Mike Vick can achieve this one day. And going back to the pay difference thing, remember that Vick can only play until his age tells him to stop. And with athletes stupider than Vick, you know that once they see that first contract, they're gonna blow it up and spend all of it and become homeless once they're older. A minimum wage person though, will have a steady job, and chances to move up for a long time. Once people see that he is a responsible worker, he will get the chance to move up. I think Vick should get this oppurtunity too. Also, athletes always have the chance they will get injured, and that leaves them without a talent to earn money.
And, I think that had michael vick been lizard-fighting, or snake-fighting, or cockROACH fighting or what not, no one would have cared. But since it was a dog, "man's best friend" a lot of people were very upset. I am still amazed at how much dogs play a role in our society. And I still believe that the food industry is terrible. What they are doing to the race of chickens as a whole is far worse than what vick did to dogs.
And Roffles, I totally understand where you're coming from. I am still an Atlanta Falcons fan, and I believe Vick was very inconsistent. He often missed games, and had a very inaccurate arm. He also missed the playoffs after leading the team to a NFC championship game. But I think whats more important is that Vick got us there, and we became relevant again. Remember, the falcons were terrible after that one super bowl and the deion sanders era.
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