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man u sure do love michael vick
anyway as a Philadelphia eagles native/fan, i'm quite happy with the insertion of vick over kolb
i like my quarterbacks black (and i'm still pissed eagles got rid of mcnabb)
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Osaka27148 Posts
On September 23 2010 07:22 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 06:54 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 06:24 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 06:04 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia. Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans. Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching). Hell of a second chance. You can't say that his weed in a bottle thing would have changed his entire career. I don't think you can count that as his second chance. Sure he may have gotten suspended or something and paid a fine, but he wouldn't have had to spend 18 months in jail, lost his 130 million dollar contract, and wouldn't have lost all his endorsements. Think about this, he lost all his endorsements and his contract, which would equal to roughly 200 million dollars. And now, this year, he is getting paid 5 million. So he is getting paid arguably about 5 percent of what he would have and would be making. Does your job pay 20 times more than minimum wage? And yes, he is getting paid a lot more than what all of us make because he is a superstar athlete. But, can we do something about it? No, athletics are a lot about genes, and natural skill, so its really hard to be pro at it. And if you watched that movie Food, Inc. I would definitely call what they do to chickens and cows animal abuse. These animals are fed growth hormones, live in tight packed quarters, and most chickens never see daylight once in their lives. The food companies are really starting to take over a lot of politics and stuff. If you look at who works for the FDA, a lot of those people work for food companies. While I am aware of the issues in the food industry, I have no problem drawing a line between that and what Vick was charged with. Incomparable in my opinion. And sure, the water bottle incident wouldn't have cost him everything (but it is another example of something a 'regular' member of society would have suffered greatly for). At the end of the day if he makes his millions, good for him. I do not think he should wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of his life. I just don't want people to be suckered into the 'noble reclamation project' or the Tony Dungy 'second chance' bullshit that the sports media likes to circulate. This is not a noble undertaking, this is a business decision. If he did not possess his physical gifts then the vibe would be completely different. For evidence just look at the millions of ex-cons who scrape by after getting out of work. And finally, yes, he makes 5% of what he used to (at the moment), but you cannot compare the drop in lifestyle from 200 million - 5 million and say 80k - 20k. I think sports is about second chances though. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He is remembered as a great nba player and 5 time champion now, instead of a rapist. I think Mike Vick can achieve this one day. And going back to the pay difference thing, remember that Vick can only play until his age tells him to stop. And with athletes stupider than Vick, you know that once they see that first contract, they're gonna blow it up and spend all of it and become homeless once they're older. A minimum wage person though, will have a steady job, and chances to move up for a long time. Once people see that he is a responsible worker, he will get the chance to move up. I think Vick should get this oppurtunity too. Also, athletes always have the chance they will get injured, and that leaves them without a talent to earn money.
That is because you buy into the narrative that sports media writes about again and again. That second chance thing is great, as long as you have the qualifying physical talents to back it up. As for everyone else, tough luck.
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On September 23 2010 08:17 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 07:22 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 06:54 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 06:24 Tazza wrote:On September 23 2010 06:04 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia. Chickens? You are equating dog fighting with food production? That is ridiculous. Animal cruelty touches a cord with a lot of people, and cannot be compared straight up with humans. Vick gets his second chance because he has the ability to play a sport that is a multi-billion dollar industry. The end. There is no social commentary about second chances going on here, no "this is a good guy, let's give him a second chance". If it was really about second chances, well, his first charge of drug possession would have taken care of it. If you or I had done what he had done we would be struggling to find minimum wage work. He is making more than 5 million dollars this year (or, more than I will make in 2 lifetimes teaching). Hell of a second chance. You can't say that his weed in a bottle thing would have changed his entire career. I don't think you can count that as his second chance. Sure he may have gotten suspended or something and paid a fine, but he wouldn't have had to spend 18 months in jail, lost his 130 million dollar contract, and wouldn't have lost all his endorsements. Think about this, he lost all his endorsements and his contract, which would equal to roughly 200 million dollars. And now, this year, he is getting paid 5 million. So he is getting paid arguably about 5 percent of what he would have and would be making. Does your job pay 20 times more than minimum wage? And yes, he is getting paid a lot more than what all of us make because he is a superstar athlete. But, can we do something about it? No, athletics are a lot about genes, and natural skill, so its really hard to be pro at it. And if you watched that movie Food, Inc. I would definitely call what they do to chickens and cows animal abuse. These animals are fed growth hormones, live in tight packed quarters, and most chickens never see daylight once in their lives. The food companies are really starting to take over a lot of politics and stuff. If you look at who works for the FDA, a lot of those people work for food companies. While I am aware of the issues in the food industry, I have no problem drawing a line between that and what Vick was charged with. Incomparable in my opinion. And sure, the water bottle incident wouldn't have cost him everything (but it is another example of something a 'regular' member of society would have suffered greatly for). At the end of the day if he makes his millions, good for him. I do not think he should wear sack cloth and ashes for the rest of his life. I just don't want people to be suckered into the 'noble reclamation project' or the Tony Dungy 'second chance' bullshit that the sports media likes to circulate. This is not a noble undertaking, this is a business decision. If he did not possess his physical gifts then the vibe would be completely different. For evidence just look at the millions of ex-cons who scrape by after getting out of work. And finally, yes, he makes 5% of what he used to (at the moment), but you cannot compare the drop in lifestyle from 200 million - 5 million and say 80k - 20k. I think sports is about second chances though. Just look at Kobe Bryant. He is remembered as a great nba player and 5 time champion now, instead of a rapist. I think Mike Vick can achieve this one day. And going back to the pay difference thing, remember that Vick can only play until his age tells him to stop. And with athletes stupider than Vick, you know that once they see that first contract, they're gonna blow it up and spend all of it and become homeless once they're older. A minimum wage person though, will have a steady job, and chances to move up for a long time. Once people see that he is a responsible worker, he will get the chance to move up. I think Vick should get this oppurtunity too. Also, athletes always have the chance they will get injured, and that leaves them without a talent to earn money. That is because you buy into the narrative that sports media writes about again and again. That second chance thing is great, as long as you have the qualifying physical talents to back it up. As for everyone else, tough luck.
I think that its not about the physical talents as much as it is about the will to change. In non-sport related stuff, if someone steals something from a store, they're gonna have that on their permanent record, but they will get other jobs, and get chances to redeem themselves and to move up in their respected jobs. Michael Vick, for a while after he was out of jail, had a very tough time finding a team. No team, even teams that desperately need a qb like the lions or the vikings(before favre) wouldn't take a chance on that guy. Philadelphia too, was very skeptical and only agreed to sign him after mcnabb convinced him. But in the end, vick got the chance to play when kolb got injured, and took his best shot. Now, he gets to start for an nfl team again, and the rest is up to him. He can become that spoiled kid in atlanta, or he can grow up, and become a better player, and a better human being
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as a atlanta native... GO VICK :D
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On September 23 2010 02:55 Hawk wrote:
Holy shitballs! I understand being in awe of his speed and raw athleticism, but Vick was NEVER even remotely close to being an elite in his sport like those two. I'm gonna break this down into bullets, because it's easier.
* No Superbowls (not the best barometer for success, but what the hell, since you somehow compared to MJ)
* Career 54% passer and has been in the league since 2001. (currently at 66% through two games. You don't have to be a statistic nerd to see where this goes. If you think a guy who sat out two years of football will not just improve, but improve his accuracy a full 20% and keep it there, you are insane.
* Terrible at reading plays
* Never once close to leading any QB statistics. His career averages are most comparable to the 2009 versions of Ryan Fitzpatrick, Delhomme, Cassell, Freeman, Sanchez, Quinn and Russell. Great company!
* People always say that you can't just take his passer stats. OK. Add in all his rushing yards and TDs, all his fumbles, all his sacks. That's like 3,200yds a season on average, around 20 TDs and just about as many turnovers. You're in the same territory as the above guys, ie. right around 15th in the league or so.
* I particularly loved the shit in 2006, where every analyst was gushing that he finally arrived because he threw more than two TDS in a single game for the first time in his fucking career—IN HIS SIXTH SEASON. This was after Vick opened the '06 season by having a QB rating better than 77 once in the first five games that season.... and that two game span accounted for nearly 1/3 of his season's production.
This pretty much sums up my views on michael vick. He's always been so hyped up for the last decade and honestly he's never done anything worth mentioning imo. Plus he's always been getting himself in trouble from the get go...
Guess we'll see how the rest of this season goes tho, who knows
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Im glad a hero of yours is someone who tortures and kill living things.
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On September 23 2010 05:47 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 23 2010 05:13 Whiladan wrote:On September 23 2010 04:41 Tazza wrote:
Wow, there are so so many pessimists out there. Whiladan, you don't believe in second chances? Isn't that what america is about? And its not about people can, and do change. Although its not all the time, it happens. We will see if Vick changes or not in the next few years.
And I've read on this post that some people on here actually want vick to die, or "put him down." But if you object that he should never play football, or be in jail forever, or be executed, that means you don't believe in the American justice system. And Manifesto7, I agree with your points, but it just seems that people care awfully more about dog's lives than any other kinds of lives. I mean, do you know how many chickens are brought for the sole purpose to eat them? Think of how many chickens that is. Do you know how many people in the world are murdered or die unjustly deaths? And yet, we don't really care too much about that, but all of a sudden, when a dog dies, we just go nuts. And Manifesto7, the only thing that matters, is that we agree that vick should get a second chance. Thats all im saying. I don't condone dog fighting and never will. And another good point brought up was that Vick grew up in dog-fighting. It is very common in newsport news virginia.
I just find it wierd that so many people believe he should have gotten a longer sentence and all that. Which brings me to another point, if you don't think vick should have gotten a chance, then what do you think should be done to him? And what should he do for the rest of his life, if he even deserves a life? Like, I said at the beginning of my post, I was defending my views. If you don't agree with them, that's fine. But since they've been challenged (again), I guess I have to defend them (again). No, I don't believe in second chances, as I previously said. Sure, the Justice system would like to believe that most criminals can be reformed and returned to society as normal, law abiding citizens. I disagree. See my above post for why. This thread is, unless I'm mistaken, intended to be about Michael Vick...if Michael Vick was caught involved a cock-fighting ring, I can tell you right now that you could take my posts word for word, substituting the word "chicken" in place of the word "dog". So, if it's ok with you, don't assume that because I come to the defense of dogs, that I value the life of a dog over the life of anything else. The only distinction I honestly make between the values of two lives is between the life of the innocent, and the life of the guilty...(except spiders, spiders are K.O.S.) Sure, he can live out the rest of his days peaceably as an NFL player. I'll bet he sleeps easier at night than I do, as well. I don't care. All I care is that we not pretend that 18 months of jail time makes up for the suffering and death of the dogs affected by his actions. Cool, he grew up in dog-fighting, dog-fighting is common where he is from. Therefore, that makes it OK? No. That is last-resort logic. That's like saying 1960's America grew up around racism, so people should have chilled out with the Civil Rights Movement, right? All I care that happens to Michael Vick, and I don't care when or where, is that he gets his due...his "eye for an eye" treatment. That's all that really matters to me. I've never understood the need for punishment, in the "eye for an eye" sense that you speak of. The only thing in societies interest is that he ceases to commit the crimes he was guilty of in the past. If he never harms another animal or person as a result of his prison sentence or rehabilitation then that's a victory for society at large. Punishment doesn't benefit anyone but those who would feel some sort of relief from it. It doesn't change what he did, it only satisfies peoples sense of "justice". Peoples feelings aren't important, certainly not more important than a mans life or freedom. Again, this ties in with my "no second chances" view. Sure, everybody has something to say about why strong opinions such as my own are wrong, I'm used to that. Since this no longer seems to be a discussion on why Michael Vick is/is not a terrible person (or maybe it never was...if so, forgive me for derailing the topic), I'll generalize: Absolutely, my feelings are not important (you did not specify me, but I feel it's fair to assume). I'm not trying to change the world, I'm just posting my opinion in a blog. Regardless, CIVILization should be held to a certain standard of CIVILity. It's not my place, nor your place, nor any single person's place to dictate this standard. Everyone decides. Which obviously indicates that the list of "unforgivable crimes" society adheres to is going to be much shorter than my own. The important thing to note is that little rule they teach us in elementary school..."Majority rules, minority rights". While my opinion of "no second chances" is not the opinion held by the majority here or ANYWHERE, it is still exactly as valid as yours. I won't even bother going over the massive hole in logic of "people's feelings don't matter" in regards to the families of murder victims.
Of course civilization should be kept civil. Punishing people doesn't stop them from committing crimes, it makes the people who hate the criminal feel better.
What I mean to say is that peoples feelings don't matter enough to warrant hurting another person. As long as Michael Vick doesn't hurt animals again, there is no issue. People who love animals would probably feel better if Michael Vick was tortured the same way the animals were but there is no practical reason to do that, it's just emotional bullshit.
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Vick just played a great game against Jacksonville. He passed for 291 yards with 3 touchdowns, no picks on 17-31 and had a 119.2 quarterback rating. He ran 4 times for 30 yards and a touchdown. Eagles won 28-3. But the Eagles o-line was just terrible. Vick faced constant pressure the entire time.
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Go Vick.. he deserves another shot after all the shit that went his way. He paid his dues, now let him play. I'm glad he's doing well in Philadelphia.
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I can't read the 5pages to, I'm assuming, re-post that he has not yet to play a good secondary/defense in general. Let's all save our praise for him until he plays a good D.
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EPT
