EPTedit: the nerf for mules is also there to make supply vs mules a bit more fair, and in my opinion terran is pretty powerful now economy-wise anyway, so they can take such a hit
Scans need separate energy - Page 4
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
edit: the nerf for mules is also there to make supply vs mules a bit more fair, and in my opinion terran is pretty powerful now economy-wise anyway, so they can take such a hit | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote: Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map? (just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic) And if protoss produces all these permanent maphack obs to cover the map, they can't build anything else out of their robo. Plus, they cost money! Just showing how stupid your point is... | ||
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jakel
36 Posts
Dear god, how many times do I have to repeat this untill you get it. It's is NOT the fact that we have to make the choice it is the thing we have to make choices between. Protoss chooses between getting up his econ faster or producing tech/units faster Zerg chooses between making more units or getting his econ going faster Whatever you choose, you benefit from it, since you still have your core ability's of gathering intell (overlords/observers) Terran chooses between having more econ and losing it's core ability of gathering intell, or using that ability that it already had In the first case he's sacrificing his scan for keeping up with the protoss/Zerg , in the second case he hasn't gained a single thing from the new macro mechanic. again: Terran's are not complaining that we have to make a choice, terran's are complaing about the things they have to make a choice between. You realize by your point of view terrans choose between improving economy or scouting the opponent? The way you word things are horrible. Protoss has to choose between nexus and gateways/upgrades and zerg has to choose between drones and units, they all have downsides | ||
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Oddysay
Canada597 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:00 Eiii wrote: And if protoss produces all these permanent maphack obs to cover the map, they can't build anything else out of their robo. Plus, they cost money! Just showing how stupid your point is... that just stupid , obs dont cost alot , you can make only 3-4 obs and know everything you need to know , just get out of here protoss seriously . the terran scans cost way more and the scans only last for some time , so what ur point ? . we should get something like 50 for scans and 100-150 for mule | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
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squ1d
United States178 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:05 Oddysay wrote: that just stupid , obs dont cost alot , you can make only 3-4 obs and know everything you need to know , just get out of here protoss seriously . the terran scans cost way more and the scans only last for some time , so what ur point ? . we should get something like 50 for scans and 100-150 for mule They're very gas heavy, just like the rest of the protoss army. One of them is almost the same amount of gas as an Immortal, to get things into perspective. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
And if you really want to produce that many obs you can put down an extra robo bay (wich is much cheaper then an extra cc + orbital command) So basicly what you are saying is Observer = Trading money for scouting Terran macro mechanic = trading in your scouting for extra minerals. (so those are equal to eachother) Oh wait, but on top of that Protoss can also chronoboost with no drawbacks... You guys pretend like the scan was actually added in sc2, here is some news for you, it already existed in sc1 and it wasn't overpowered there. My whole point of the terran macro-mechanic is that it's just not on par with the rest their mechanics, nerf scan if you really want to, nerf the regen of the energy of the orbital command, but please make the macro mechanic more interesting then scouting (wich we already had) and getting some extra minerals (while gas is actually the real bottleneck) | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:08 FictionJV wrote: But scan's are also tied to energy, you can't have unlimited scans, so it's also impossible to scan the complete map. And if you really want to produce that many obs you can put down an extra robo bay (wich is much cheaper then an extra cc + orbital command) So basicly what you are saying is Observer = Trading money for scouting Terran macro mechanic = trading in your scouting for extra minerals. (so those are equal to eachother) Oh wait, but on top of that Protoss can also chronoboost with no drawbacks... You guys pretend like the scan was actually added in sc2, here is some news for you, it already existed in sc1 and it wasn't overpowered there. My whole point of the terran macro-mechanic is that it's just not on par with the rest their mechanics, nerf scan if you really want to, nerf the regen of the energy of the orbital command, but please make the macro mechanic more interesting then scouting (wich we already had) and getting some extra minerals (while gas is actually the real bottleneck) Except an extra robo bay is much much more gas than another cc+orbital command, which is more mineral heavy, but with MULEs minerals should not be as big a problem. Actually, buddy, most people regard scan in SC1 to be pretty OP. There just wasn't any good way to resolve that problem in SC1. And I want to point out that there's a difference between calling something OP and imba. | ||
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nMn
United States144 Posts
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
Scan gets you infinity minerals when it wins you the game. Just learn that mules can be placed even later on by just saving the energy, nobody forces you to dump them every 30 secs. Of course it is nice to have extra income so you can produce some more, but 300 isn't really a whole army.. but 6 rines or 3 marauders (without the gas). The scan nets you far more theoretical income. For example, a scenario where you come with your MMM army but dont have any detection unit with you. Your opponent is Z and plays defensively with banelings. You are making a time push, now there are 2 scenarios: 1. You don't scan at a crucial spot (a chokepoint or near his base) -> you lose 10 rines and 4 marauders. 2. You scan and kill each burrowed baneling correctly -> You don't lose a single unit. The scan just saved you 10 rines and 4 marauders basically. That's 900 minerals and 100 gas. On top of that.. you were able to force your army into his base and destroy.. say another 10 units or more thanks to the scan. Conclusion: Scan > Mule. The same holds when it comes to checking what your opponent makes. Before you focus on a certain unit that your opponent makes a hard counter for you are able to realise this and switch to a different kind of unit, essentially saving you loses. I can't really talk for toss, but for zerg.. larvae is both used for drones and army, on top of that drones are gone when you evolve them into a building, essentially putting extra stress on the larvae. Needless to say, its no surprise zerg often expand first (or one of the first things) as they need to in order to coop with the other races when it comes to production. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
 hurr durr 270 minerals. I don't see Protoss and Zerg players fretting about the fact that their scouting implements cost vespene gas. | ||
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Oddysay
Canada597 Posts
scans for terran last for some sec . | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:30 Oddysay wrote: yes but the scout for protoss and zerg can stay alive the whole game . scans for terran last for some sec . At least you allways get to see what you want and don't have to worry about your scout getting killed before it sees anything. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
But anyway, since we obviously can't seem to agree. My point is that the whole terran macro-mechanic is just a bit bland. I don't think it's bad that the scan is on the mechanic, but atleast make the other 2 options more interesting. At the moment there is just an illusion of choice, you scan when you really have to, and when you don't need it you just get some extra minerals since the fortified supply depot sucks anyway. They could have done so much more with it, and if I see how much Z/P their mechanics change the race compared and make macro actually more interesting.. (in the way of more fun/interesting not in the way of better/op) I just kinda feel bad about the terran ones. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On March 13 2010 06:47 StarsPride wrote: lol. and when ur opp switches to mass zealot from stalker or adds more then 2 collos. tell me. how do u manage. Do you simple call GG and said i should have magically scouted that with my scv that got killed before it got to see anything USE LOTS OF BARRACKS | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:37 FictionJV wrote: I love how this suddenly turned into an observer vs scan thread :p But anyway, since we obviously can't seem to agree. My point is that the whole terran macro-mechanic is just a bit bland. I don't think it's bad that the scan is on the mechanic, but atleast make the other 2 options more interesting. At the moment there is just an illusion of choice, you scan when you really have to, and when you don't need it you just get some extra minerals since the fortified supply depot sucks anyway. They could have done so much more with it, and if I see how much Z/P their mechanics change the race compared and make macro actually more interesting.. (in the way of more fun/interesting not in the way of better/op) I just kinda feel bad about the terran ones. Ah, a post that doesn't make my eyes bleed  I can certainly agree that MULE seems a bit lackluster in terms of build order customization in comparison to the Zerg and Protoss mechanics. | ||
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yomi
United States773 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27093 Posts
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yomi
United States773 Posts
On March 13 2010 09:51 Manifesto7 wrote: And you aren't losing minerals, you are just delaying the minerals for the time it takes to gather 50 energy. Sometimes those minerals are more important now than intel, sometimes you can wait for those minerals because you need intel. Part of being a good player is knowing when. It seems pretty simple to me. This is illogical, you only have so many OC casts during a game of X length, thus you are in fact losing the mule call down forever. Also you must consider the time value of minerals, that they are more valuable early in the game than later. The scan is most useful early on to spot enemy tech but is also the most costly as minerals are more scarce. | ||
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