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there's more ways than scan to scout your enemy, and using scan early game isn't a horrible shot to your econ. first 50 energy of orbital should be spent on mule and that will get your economy rolling just fine, so the next 50 can be a scan if you need it. reapers can jump cliffs, how can it be that hard to suicide one into their base to scout? you should gain enough intel from your scouting scv, suiciding a reaper and whatever else you use.
i have zero problems scouting as terran after having played a bunch. i admit, when i first started i was getting annoyed at having to use scan more often and forgoing mule because i was afraid of what my opponent was doing. now that i've played more i have other means to scout, and am okay with using scan every so often when i need it. controlling watchtowers, proper use of reapers, even sensory towers, will give you plenty of information.
i do wish mule was a bit different, and could mine gas. like an option to cast a mule to gather minerals or gas, where the gas one is slower than minerals but nets more than a normal scv, lasting the same time and costing the same. i think supply drop should be either removed or moved to a different building, because i've only found use in it when i lose a bunch of depots, or was bad in using my orbitals energy. it might be okay late game when you have more orbitals and extra energy but it seems silly to have it with mule/scan.
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I think the argument most Terran players would identify with is that the while the Zerg and Protoss mechanics (Inject, Chrono) have been added strictly in addition to what already existed in SC1, MULE has been implemented in competition with Scan, a core Terran ability. This discrepancy feels unfair.
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Inject larva needs separate energy so the other queen abilities can be used.
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hurr durr 270 minerals. I don't see Protoss and Zerg players fretting about the fact that their scouting implements cost vespene gas.
Overlords cost gas?
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On March 13 2010 10:40 SoFFacet wrote:
I think the argument most Terran players would identify with is that the while the Zerg and Protoss mechanics (Inject, Chrono) have been added strictly in addition to what already existed in SC1, MULE has been implemented in competition with Scan, a core Terran ability. This discrepancy feels unfair.
I can kinda see that, but I don't see a good solution so far. If you put scan on anything but a command center, it will be economical basically no matter what. Scan is amazing, plain and simple. I do agree that its a bit of an unfavorable circumstance, but I have so far not seen a good solution. Perhaps having the robot gather thing be built at a command center for free every now and then?
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I don't really see a problem with the current state of things, I think scan vs mule is an interesting choice to make.
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On March 13 2010 11:14 Nuublet wrote:
I don't really see a problem with the current state of things, I think scan vs mule is an interesting choice to make.
Totally agree. I feel like the MULE is the most meaningful macro mechanic choice of the 3 races tbh. Especially my second 50 energy in the game. My scout is dead and the timing works out that if I scanned his base at that time I'd tell if he's going starport/robotics/lair. AND at that point it's still early enough that I'd love to have the extra minerals for an extra barracks or maybe an expansion. I always send a second scout just to see if I can't get the intel in any other way, and if I can, whopp: I plop a second mule and am much more ahead in economy.
Great mechanic, and exactly what blizzard wanted these choices to be: meaningful.
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Having to make a choice isn't a bad thing even if the terran macro mechanic forces you to choose between intel and minerals. Most high level players are going to hide their army the best they can (vs terran) within the base (or to the side of natural) making scan for army intel difficult, of course scanning their main for buildings yields similar information. As far as island maps, making a single viking to save scan energy at island expos isn't a bad idea, that viking can enter the fray after collecting intel. Of course this isn't the ideal answer but relying 100 percent on scan for intel isn't ideal either.
I think blizzard purposely designed this to make the terran players choose, in a similar way all the buildings have reactors/tech labs to choose from. Tweaking the numbers a bit might be in the future but I like the choice (I'd rather not see a sensor tower or other building get scan).
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i think it's a very bad choice to have to make.
as of right now, zerg has constant maphack through overlords, which are a necessity, so it really costs the zerg almost nothing. for the toss, observers may cost a bit of gas, but they're permanent, and can move. their resource cost isn't nearly as bad as a scan is, though. the scan, as discussed before, is roughly 240~ minerals or more. what this means is that terrans have by far the most expensive scouting, and probably the least effective, as the scan does not move, nor is permanent.
terrans need a better maphack.
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As a terran player, I feel like the different macro mechanics given to the 3 races benefit us the least.
We already had scan before, now it's practically taken away from us because we need the mule just to be even with the protoss/zerg and their macro mechanic. And I don't even think it's that even. Just look at the current poll about what would be the most IMBA if put into SC1 and mule is the god damn lowest BY A WIDE MARGIN.
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even with the rampant noobs, it's still hard for me to believe this is being discussed.
it would be the biggest nerf ever to the other races if this was implemented.
might as well take the mothership from toss and give it to terran so they can cloak their tanks.
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On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.
I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance Where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.
Yeah, and?
Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.
Terran have Reactor which let terran players to double the production of some units like marines, marauders, Hellions, vikings,medics. i think that is balanced between the races.
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I've got an Idea!
A great way to allow Terran to scout and leave scan/mules alone is to give Terran a flying scouting drone that is built from the CC so it still competes with the econ (can't built scvs at the same time). This drone should be a little slow and weak without detection and take up supply.
Does anyone think that this Idea might be a good way to help T scout(if they need it)?
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On March 13 2010 05:52 StarsPride wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 05:35 PokePill wrote:On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.
I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200. Yeah, and? Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco. Zerg can choose between faster units or drones. ...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar. Yeah and? All you did is recycle proposed solutions already. If there is no decision to make, there is no point for mules at all. The point is That terran is highly more inclined to be using Scans then mules thus making there macro mechanic Mute compared to the others. I have wiped a zergs base clean of drones 3x over and still lost the game because he was mining faster then me and got a bigger army.. its complete fucking bullshit. in bw if i were to kill a fully saturated base of drones even once i can guarentee i can take a 3rd having no issue. and secure a fairly large advantadge keeping him in the dark but in this game i cant do that cause hes still going to be on a fucking even footing with me in terms of army power
Yeah, if you actually wiped all your opponents drones 3 times and he still won then, without a doubt, you made a ton of mistakes not related to the mule / scan mechanic. It's safe to assume you lost too many units while you were harassing.
I actually don't buy that zerg can necessarily rebuild workers more quickly now. I think that argument is slightly flawed. In sc1, by middle game, the zerg would have more hatcheries. 4 - 5 hatcheries, probably. This perfectly compensates for the new larva mechanic. Nowdays they'll have like 2 hatcheries at middle game, maybe 3. But what's the difference? How does this change the rebuilding of drones? We're still dealing with the same amount of minerals, and larva will still be used. Infact, the only change is the larva come from 2 separate hatcheries and not 4 or 5. During the early game, zerg do have access to more larva. That is the difference. Did you perform these supposed drone wipes during the early game? If not, the whole issue is moot. (Still, a wipe of drones in the early game is devastating, regardless)
To analyze this issue even further, there actually is a slightly diminished value in killing workers in SC2 compared with SC1. But this is because the point of saturation for number of drones on mineral patches in SC2 is lower than in SC1. And really, killing workers remains pretty effective.
Let's remember: Chrono boost will help saturate a base with minerals, but it will not speed up mining beyond the point of saturation. The same applies to the spawn larva mechanic. MULES can do that. The MULE serves a unique function. The other races do not have an equivalent..
Blowing a scan on an island is likely a waste of energy. If you have map control, you should be able to scout without your SCV being killed. If you don't, then maybe you should try harder to get map control. At a certain point in the game, consistent harassment alone can serve the function of scouting. There are also watch towers....
There are of course critical times where scans are valuable and needed, but I do believe there is an art to cutting down on scans and upping your MULE usage.
All I can say about this discussion is thank god you folks aren't on the blizzard patch making / balancing team, because in that case we would all be screwed.
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T doesn't need a good way to scout. If they really want to use the mule then fuck they'll just have to scout like everyone else.
edit: honestly, scans are priceless. yea, mule in the beginning, but other than that...mule when you already scanned and knows what's up.
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Observers are hands down the best intel ability in the game, and I don't think that's going to be under discussion at all.
Zerg itself has immense ability to be aware of what is going on around the map, both with cheap ultra-fast zerglings and with overlord placement. Hell, in this way zerg also shuts down the potential scouting of SCVs and the such (which aren't nearly as numerous now, especially early on).
Both of those are far better than scanning, and I don't even see how it's a debate. You people act like scanning reveals the entire map or something. What happens when a player scans and doesn't even get the intel he needs? Yeah, sure, I see the zerg isn't teching in his base in the early game, but I don't know if he's expanded early, or has enough speedlings to surround any force I move out with. He shuts down my SCV scouts with a group of 6 lings, so what do I do? Waste another scan on the natural? What if he tried to ninja expand somewhere instead?
By this point, 2 MULEs would have paid off in a much larger force of units, and you might have had enough to push the zerg regardless of what they were doing. This is the problem terran players have to face every game.
And if you're clueless and actually think terran doesn't need to scout, I suggest you try playing terran for a decent amount of games on these current maps. On nearly every map, you have backward ways into your base you need to worry about in addition to all of the other ways races can now bypass the usual terran wall-off and defensive play. There are way too many bases to cover, especially if you don't have good intel on your opponent.
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You should know if he expanded early with your early scout. If that is the case, you should take map control with hellions / banshees and push. At that point, you are harassing and you have plenty of intel. You can also consider harassing with one or two reapers, which are faster than zerglings, will not get killed / surrounded, and can jump up cliffs. This move alone will give you all the intel you need, and if you're good you'll get a drone kill or two in the process..
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On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:46 Slunk wrote:
Why should terran get free minerals AND free maphack? Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map? (just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)
I think your point is more stupid. Comparing chronoboost with MULE is totally different. One gives you a worker that gets you much faster minerals and the other speeds up research/production.
First of all, obs is less of a maphack than scan. Obs can be destroyed, and if the enemy has a lot of detection around his base, its really hard to get an obs through to see what he's doing. Scan? No problem, just click and instant-view.
I, for one, would rather have superior economy early game than speedier research. Because stronger economy = more money to produce more buildings to production + research.
I agree with Slunk, T should not get free minerals AND free maphack
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On March 13 2010 11:49 MeruFM wrote:
As a terran player, I feel like the different macro mechanics given to the 3 races benefit us the least.
We already had scan before, now it's practically taken away from us because we need the mule just to be even with the protoss/zerg and their macro mechanic. And I don't even think it's that even. Just look at the current poll about what would be the most IMBA if put into SC1 and mule is the god damn lowest BY A WIDE MARGIN.
If you actually go through each of the comments for that poll, not one single T player voted against MULE while the other races did for their own counterparts. Just shows how biased and prideful some "group" can be.
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On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Observers are hands down the best intel ability in the game, and I don't think that's going to be under discussion at all.
Since when? Scan > Observers period. With scan, you can detect anywhere, anytime, no matter what. With obs, you need to upgrade its research, fly it through anti-air detection like turrets. Unlike scan, if the opponent doesn't want your obs to be there, he can block/destroy it. T wants to scan my base? Well I can't stop him no matter what I do. Not to mention obs cost gas, take up supply while scan is pretty much free (not in SC2 anymore thank god)
On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Zerg itself has immense ability to be aware of what is going on around the map, both with cheap ultra-fast zerglings and with overlord placement. Hell, in this way zerg also shuts down the potential scouting of SCVs and the such (which aren't nearly as numerous now, especially early on).
There are so many things wrong with claiming that Z has better scouting abilities that I dont even know where to start. First of all, yes lings are cheap. But because they are so fragile, you cannot scout anywhere, and you will not be able to scout inside your opponent's base (unless he's careless) which is the most important part of scouting. T also has the option of putting a marine around the map, it only costs 50 minerals, its still cheaper than Toss's obs / zealot over the map.
I would rather have a floating building scouting for me than an overlord. Overlord is a supply, so if it gets destroyed, it will hurt Z's macro. The reason you float a building is because you don't use it. So it doesn't really hurt you if it gets destroyed. Not to mention a floating building is more sturdy than an overlord.
All this AND you also get maphack scan.
On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Both of those are far better than scanning, and I don't even see how it's a debate. You people act like scanning reveals the entire map or something. What happens when a player scans and doesn't even get the intel he needs?
We don't act like scanning reveals the entire map. Sure it doesn't but who needs the entire map revealed when you can easily simply scan where his base is? You looking for expos? Scan the likely expo areas. Oh no! you might actually have to put a cheap 50 mineral unit in expo areas that scan can't cover. I wonder if you start to feeling the pain that Zergs/Protoss has to go through yet?
Your post is not only incredibly biased and one-sided but you claim like Terrans have it bad. If anything, Terrans have it best. Stop trying to see things from only one point of view and try to be see how hard it is for Protoss / Zerg who doesn't have maphack
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EPT
