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Scans need separate energy

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StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
March 12 2010 20:07 GMT
#1
I think this needs to be touched upon. As a terran player. When i have up to two orbital commands most of my energy has to be used for scanning to see my opponents army composition and to see if hes making any switches or an island expo. Which leaves me little time to make use of the Mule mechanic. Where as toss and zerg are able to take advantage of there mechanic to a much greater extent.
I propose that We keep Scan separate from Mule/Supply...
Scan has its own energy as does mule/supply. I think this could help upset some of the balance issues regarding terran right now.
InfC.Pride
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-12 20:16:29
March 12 2010 20:16 GMT
#2
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
March 12 2010 20:16 GMT
#3
From the games I've played I haven't experience any balance issues, more so if you think of a 'solution' it becomes an incredible buff. While I guess its kind of pointess for me to reply only to debunk(does that work xD) your idea, its kind of a catch 22 where at the point you want nothing else BUT mule, but at the same time scan is immesurable considering how game changing just one peek at your enemies base can be. Also in an ideal situation a terran would never find the need to use supply call down, unless of course his supplies just got killed but its such a rare occurance. Actually on the topic of coming up with new ideas, I was thinking it could be an upgrade on existing supplies that just cost money. Since theres a 'risk' involved in having one supply worth double sitting in your base, it might not be used. So a cost thats somewhat equal to the amount of mining lost by the scv as well as the base 100 of another supply depot. Something around 125~150
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
March 12 2010 20:19 GMT
#4
How about using an SCV/Marine (50 minerals) or a barracks (150 minerals)?

Works well enough for scouting army compositions and islands.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
KinosJourney2
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden1811 Posts
March 12 2010 20:19 GMT
#5
On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.
ocho wrote: EDIT: NEVERMIND, THIS THING HAS APM TECHNOLOGY OMG
StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
March 12 2010 20:22 GMT
#6
On March 13 2010 05:19 spinesheath wrote:
How about using an SCV/Marine (50 minerals) or a barracks (150 minerals)?

Works well enough for scouting army compositions and islands.

Ive tried using scv marines.. Its not good at scouting army comp.. Good players have observers and when they see the scv they can send a few units forward andk ill it which has happened to me numerous times because of xelnaga or observer.
No sir. SCVS dont work vs people who use brain
InfC.Pride
Railz
Profile Joined July 2008
United States1449 Posts
March 12 2010 20:25 GMT
#7
Make towers cost 200/200, 75 energy, give us scan, take it off orbital command.

Give tanks their old range back, make thors a tad smaller. It sucks, we're stuck with either thor or viking as AA late game, and it is hard to get any sort of good amount of thors, and vikings only bonus is their long range.
Did the whole world just get a lot smaller and go whooosh?_-` Number 0ne By.Fantasy Fanatic!
Niten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States598 Posts
March 12 2010 20:31 GMT
#8
On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.


For the sake of clarity this isn't quite right. Zerg doesn't get units faster, it gets to produce MORE units concurrently.

I agree with nerfing the costs/tinkering with timings, etc. until you find that balance where each scan isn't costing so much. I don't know how you'd beef up the supply boost, but that'd be good too. Something not brought before with that ability is that it's the 100min + the saved mining time of the SCV that would've been building it (I dunno how much that is).
Korra: "Ok, I know that I'm not good at emotions, but that's what Tenzin's gonna teach me, right? He's gonna teach me to be happy and gentle and spiritual, and the rest of that bullsh**t."
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
March 12 2010 20:31 GMT
#9
Well, I knew it will be a pain in the ass from the beginning. Protoss and Zerg got completely new and independent macro mechanics while the Terran must sacrifice their only usable scouting method.

I wonder how much would the other races mechanics been used if they were mutually exclusive with using overlords/observers.

But I like the fact that players are forced to choice, so I would propose something like this:
Terran: The energy for comsat is reduced to 25 (for example).
Protoss: The chrono boost will make something quicker but something slower. You wanna quicker zealots? Well, slower production of probes for you then.
Zerg: No idea. Maybe make it so the hatchery under effect of spawn larvae cannot accept gas...?
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
March 12 2010 20:35 GMT
#10
On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.



Yeah and? All you did is recycle proposed solutions already. If there is no decision to make, there is no point for mules at all.
StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-12 20:54:33
March 12 2010 20:52 GMT
#11
On March 13 2010 05:35 PokePill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:
On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.



Yeah and? All you did is recycle proposed solutions already. If there is no decision to make, there is no point for mules at all.

The point is That terran is highly more inclined to be using Scans then mules thus making there macro mechanic Mute compared to the others. I have wiped a zergs base clean of drones 3x over and still lost the game because he was mining faster then me and got a bigger army.. its complete fucking bullshit.
in bw if i were to kill a fully saturated base of drones even once i can guarentee i can take a 3rd having no issue. and secure a fairly large advantadge keeping him in the dark but in this game i cant do that cause hes still going to be on a fucking even footing with me in terms of army power
InfC.Pride
Elegy
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1629 Posts
March 12 2010 21:30 GMT
#12
if u wiped a zerg base clean of drones three times over and still lost then post the replay because I'm kinda interested to see how many mins u must have been floating =P

mules are a great macro boost, but I agree with u on a point that terran really lacks effective detection until raven because, in the case of tvp, it costs terran ~300 mins to scan just once if he puts a dt in your base =/.

i think 50 energy for 1 scan is a bit much given that MULES come from the same energy source. I would not object to scan being lowered to BW's 25 tbh, though I haven't really given it that much thought.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-12 21:47:57
March 12 2010 21:45 GMT
#13
wtf, how are you wasting all the energy on Scans and not get rolled by other races?
In my experience there is no other option than using a MULE. Use a barracks or air unit or scv is more efficient of a scout than a scan. There was a thread about this already, it cost about 210~ for a barracks to scout (and it's reusable). But even if it dies, it's still cheaper than wasting a scan which equals 270-348 in mule mining gains.

Terrans should just be making barracks all over the place and placing them around like zergs do with overlords. Scanning is very detrimental.


Aside from that, I agree. Scan either needs it's own 1 time use cooldown every 50 seconds or whatever, or just a reduction in energy cost. Extra Supplies should boost the HP of a depot too.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-12 21:48:52
March 12 2010 21:47 GMT
#14
On March 13 2010 06:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:
wtf, how are you wasting all the energy on Scans and not get rolled by other races?
In my experience there is no other option than using a MULE. Use a barracks or air unit or scv is more efficient of a scout than a scan. There was a thread about this already, it cost about 210~ for a barracks to scout (and it's reusable). But even if it dies, it's still cheaper than wasting a scan which equals 270-348 in mule mining gains.

Terrans should just be making barracks all over the place and placing them around like zergs do with overlords. Scanning is very detrimental.


Aside from that, I agree. Scan either needs it's own 1 time use cooldown every 50 seconds or whatever, or just a reduction in energy cost.

lol. and when ur opp switches to mass zealot from stalker or adds more then 2 collos. tell me.
how do u manage. Do you simple call GG and said i should have magically scouted that with my scv that got killed before it got to see anything
InfC.Pride
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
March 12 2010 21:52 GMT
#15
I use scan quite a lot too, I don't see any problem with this, however. There are definitely parts of the game where it's np to use your energy on mules and I think it makes for interesting decisions.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
CowGoMoo
Profile Joined December 2006
United States428 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-12 21:55:14
March 12 2010 21:54 GMT
#16
I like the choice Terran has, I just dislike how Toss and Zerg have super cheap ez-mode scouts. 50/50 Overlord speed for Zerg and ridiculously fast obs tech for Protoss.

I would rather see the other races scouting abilities nerfed than terrans buffed.
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
March 12 2010 21:56 GMT
#17
mules really dont help u that much after 10 minutes into the game, it just makes you mine out your base faster......... i really dont think its imbalanced the way its setup right no. the only time i use mules after 10 mins in the game is if my eco is really bad or if im trying to get a new base up and running faster, that or i know what my opponent is doing and do not need to scan
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
March 12 2010 21:57 GMT
#18
Do you realize that neither of the other races has any method to safely scout tech switches? Terran can block overlords/observers with some turrets/marines, but there is nothing that can block scan.

Zerg can't scout army composition any better than terran could with SCVs or raxes.
Protoss has it a bit easier unless there is a raven or turrets near the terrans army.

Scan if you NEED information that you can't get otherwise.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
March 12 2010 21:57 GMT
#19
On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.

That imo would be like map hacks late game if terran last that long scan all day and night.
StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
March 12 2010 21:58 GMT
#20
On March 13 2010 06:57 spinesheath wrote:
Do you realize that neither of the other races has any method to safely scout tech switches? Terran can block overlords/observers with some turrets/marines, but there is nothing that can block scan.

Zerg can't scout army composition any better than terran could with SCVs or raxes.
Protoss has it a bit easier unless there is a raven or turrets near the terrans army.

Scan if you NEED information that you can't get otherwise.

I dont think terran has really the authority in how the games play out to do proper tech switches because everything we do revolves around our bio army added with support. Unless we want to go air. And well. tbh i dont think that works out so great
InfC.Pride
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