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On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics.
You know, my thinking has been similar to your own.
What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally.
With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit.
If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan.
People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice possibly wasn't intended to be theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize.
If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.
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On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics. You know, my thinking has been similar to your own. What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally. With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit. If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan. People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice isn't theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize. If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.
So the Terran players should be glad that their macro mechanic is giving choices to their opponent? 
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I never said they should be happy about it. In fact it could be outright unfair and imbalanced.
I'm just trying to find justification for why Blizzard made it the way it is.
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I think the real problem is that there's no energy tension for P or for Z, not that there is for T.
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On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:46 Slunk wrote:
Why should terran get free minerals AND free maphack? Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map? (just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)
I agree with your point about the observer.
In terms of resources, terran is the only race that consistently is able to gather resources from energy. The queen basicly just replaces a hatchery, so you save yourself 150 every time you build a queen instead of one more hatchery. Chronoboost is powerful in the beginning, but when probe saturation is reached, it is only useful for upgrades. Because for example chronoboosting a gateway constantly just saves you 150 minerals for a second gateway.
If you look at it this way, terran mule is the only macro mechanic that constantly gives you minerals for free. Thus, terran does not have to use mule only to be equal with zerg and protoss.
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On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics. You know, my thinking has been similar to your own. What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally. With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit. If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan. People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice possibly wasn't intended to be theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize. If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.
Yeah, what you say makes sense, but that just handicaps the Terrans further instead of balancing things.
Besides, I'd rather play safe and allow myself the luxury of a MULE than to play greedy and be forced to scan for timing pushes.
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Perfect the way it is.
Scan is really powerful, MULE is really powerful.. now you have to make a strategic decision on what will be most worth it.
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Point is Scans are too valuable For terran. It is so essential i understand what units my opponent is getting to understanding the timings. A few units can really make or break a push which is what makes the scan so fucking valuable.. and also mate.. Playing safe is scanning....
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On March 13 2010 08:02 Whalecore wrote:
Perfect the way it is.
Scan is really powerful, MULE is really powerful.. now you have to make a strategic decision on what will be most worth it.
Scans are more so worth it then Mules. Which makes the other races macro mechanics gain them a edge over terran.
This in my opinion is the heart of terran weakness ... before every scan i ask my self. What do i need to know. and i answer that question opposed to whether or not i should get more minerals.
7/10 times the answer is scan.
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On March 13 2010 07:59 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics. You know, my thinking has been similar to your own. What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally. With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit. If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan. People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice possibly wasn't intended to be theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize. If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.
Yeah, what you say makes sense, but that just handicaps the Terrans further instead of balancing things. Besides, I'd rather play safe and allow myself the luxury of a MULE than to play greedy and be forced to scan for timing pushes.
this is how the macro mechanics are supposed to work.
as a protoss you could also create a strategy that relies on building zealots faster because of chrono boost, but you loose in terms of eco then.
come on, this is a strategy game, of course you have to think and make wise decisions instead of just being the guy whos remembering his macro mechanics better
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On March 13 2010 08:18 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:59 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics. You know, my thinking has been similar to your own. What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally. With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit. If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan. People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice possibly wasn't intended to be theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize. If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.
Yeah, what you say makes sense, but that just handicaps the Terrans further instead of balancing things. Besides, I'd rather play safe and allow myself the luxury of a MULE than to play greedy and be forced to scan for timing pushes. this is how the macro mechanics are supposed to work. as a protoss you could also create a strategy that relies on building zealots faster because of chrono boost, but you loose in terms of eco then. come on, this is a strategy game, of course you have to think and make wise decisions instead of just be the guy whos remembering his macro mechanics better
They fully saturate so much faster. We dont. And the mule cant make up for that early on because of how nessecarry scan is and how ineffective any other scout really is.
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There are other scouting options if you're hurting for minerals and need to drop mules instead of scanning. I don't really understand what change you're looking for... Two mana pools on the command center? A separate building for scanning? An addon? I play Terran almost exclusively and I usually just suck it up and decide what's more important to me. Scan and skimp on units once I know what my enemy has, or make mules and pump units "just in case" because I didn't scan. I also scout with SCVs even in the midgame, it's cheaper than a scan to suicide one SCV toward enemy base to get an idea what type of units he's making, or even 1 dropship with 6 marines and a marauder--you get intel, damage econ or tech, and see what kind of units come to respond. SC2 Terran is the least mobile but benefits the most from map control (Zerg creeping at a close second, and Protoss with warp gates at third)
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Dear god, how many times do I have to repeat this untill you get it.
It's is NOT the fact that we have to make the choice it is the thing we have to make choices between.
Protoss chooses between getting up his econ faster or producing tech/units faster
Zerg chooses between making more units or getting his econ going faster
Whatever you choose, you benefit from it, since you still have your core ability's of gathering intell (overlords/observers)
Terran chooses between having more econ and losing it's core ability of gathering intell, or using that ability that it already had
In the first case he's sacrificing his scan for keeping up with the protoss/Zerg , in the second case he hasn't gained a single thing from the new macro mechanic.
again:
Terran's are not complaining that we have to make a choice, terran's are complaing about the things they have to make a choice between.
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On March 13 2010 08:28 Gedrah wrote:
There are other scouting options if you're hurting for minerals and need to drop mules instead of scanning. I don't really understand what change you're looking for... Two mana pools on the command center? A separate building for scanning? An addon? I play Terran almost exclusively and I usually just suck it up and decide what's more important to me. Scan and skimp on units once I know what my enemy has, or make mules and pump units "just in case" because I didn't scan. I also scout with SCVs even in the midgame, it's cheaper than a scan to suicide one SCV toward enemy base to get an idea what type of units he's making, or even 1 dropship with 6 marines and a marauder--you get intel, damage econ or tech, and see what kind of units come to respond. SC2 Terran is the least mobile but benefits the most from map control (Zerg creeping at a close second, and Protoss with warp gates at third)
Playing and practicing vs people like kiwikaki and oversky. Trust me you need to scan Any other scout doesnt cut it. THEY WILL SEE THE SCOUT COME. and they will kill it before itdoes anything.
Observers Xel naga watch towers... Very easy for zerg to have map control early on along with toss. Terran can have the middle for a small period but when it comes to mid game i have to be very cautious about how i move out with my units. Which is why i need the info on his unit composition. this isn't like BW where i know exactly what im making. if my opp has 8 or so more zealots in his army comp i need to know. There isn't a perfect army composition for terran that makes my opponents try to counter me. Im trying to counter them.. If i want to make my opponent counter me my only real option is opting for banshees or some wierd hellion shit if he goes 2 gate zealot with no cyber core. i mean these are the fundamentals.. this is what it comes down to.
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Stop crying about being a Terran - it is possibly the strongest race right now. Once you have three CCs, you can mule and scan like a mineral and maphacker.
If you want to change scan to another building, please increase time of chronoboost back again and lower energy requirements because I also want my race buffed.
Oh, and also give me a harassing unit early in the game like the hellions, one which I can kill an economy in 30 seconds. And please allow me to float my buildings away when I'm losing so that I can build again on an island.
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I'd love for scans to cost less or be separate from MULES, but realize that a change like that might make Terran overpowered.
Definitely hate the idea of it being on the sensor tower or being on a separate part of the Command Center (like SC1) because it was too easy to kill buildings like that with such low health. I love the change in SC2 how it's part of the entire CC so that it's much harder to kill.
Part of the problem is that too many Terrans - yes even the top ones - use scans to search for expansions. That's a complete waste of a scan, unless it's an island and you have no vikings or something for patrol. Use scvs, marines, floating buildings, a helion on patrol, or even make missle turrets at future expansion areas to keep track of how your opponent is expanding. If he kills your units it means he's either going to make a move there soon to expand or he has vastly better map control than you do.
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On March 13 2010 08:36 squ1d wrote:
Stop crying about being a Terran - it is possibly the strongest race right now. Once you have three CCs, you can mule and scan like a mineral and maphacker.
If you want to change scan to another building, please increase time of chronoboost back again and lower energy requirements because I also want my race buffed.
The nerfs to protoss and zerg aren't meant to make terran strongest, Blizzard is just trying to balance the game, you know?
Your race was already buffed from BW. Even the results of the pool here on TL indicate that people believe Mule is the worst new macro addition.
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lol terrans want longer siege and free scans so that they can turtle in for another 12 years and build perfect counter to enemy.
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User was warned for this post
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On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 07:46 Slunk wrote:
Why should terran get free minerals AND free maphack? Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map? (just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)
If you really don't like obs, why don't you kill them? It's not like you can kill a scan.
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On March 13 2010 08:29 FictionJV wrote:
Dear god, how many times do I have to repeat this untill you get it.
It's is NOT the fact that we have to make the choice it is the thing we have to make choices between.
Protoss chooses between getting up his econ faster or producing tech/units faster
Zerg chooses between making more units or getting his econ going faster
Whatever you choose, you benefit from it, since you still have your core ability's of gathering intell (overlords/observers)
Terran chooses between having more econ and losing it's core ability of gathering intell, or using that ability that it already had
In the first case he's sacrificing his scan for keeping up with the protoss/Zerg , in the second case he hasn't gained a single thing from the new macro mechanic.
again:
Terran's are not complaining that we have to make a choice, terran's are complaing about the things they have to make a choice between.
So basically the choice for Terran is maphack or mineral hack?
If Terran chooses maphack then they don't mineral hack but they also don't have to waste as much minerals on building unnecessary units and can just build the correct units to counter.
If Terran chooses mineral hack then they have more minerals to waste on unnecessary units so that when they do have to counter they have some resources for it.
Really, I don't see a problem. Make scan cost less energy or something, but definitely do not move it to another building. That would be ridiculously OP.
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EPT
