Scans need separate energy

On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.

On March 13 2010 05:19 spinesheath wrote:
How about using an SCV/Marine (50 minerals) or a barracks (150 minerals)?

Works well enough for scouting army compositions and islands.

On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.

On March 13 2010 05:19 KinosJourney2 wrote:


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.

On March 13 2010 05:35 PokePill wrote:



Yeah and? All you did is recycle proposed solutions already. If there is no decision to make, there is no point for mules at all.

On March 13 2010 06:45 CharlieMurphy wrote:
wtf, how are you wasting all the energy on Scans and not get rolled by other races?
In my experience there is no other option than using a MULE. Use a barracks or air unit or scv is more efficient of a scout than a scan. There was a thread about this already, it cost about 210~ for a barracks to scout (and it's reusable). But even if it dies, it's still cheaper than wasting a scan which equals 270-348 in mule mining gains.

Terrans should just be making barracks all over the place and placing them around like zergs do with overlords. Scanning is very detrimental.


Aside from that, I agree. Scan either needs it's own 1 time use cooldown every 50 seconds or whatever, or just a reduction in energy cost.

On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.

On March 13 2010 06:57 spinesheath wrote:
Do you realize that neither of the other races has any method to safely scout tech switches? Terran can block overlords/observers with some turrets/marines, but there is nothing that can block scan.

Zerg can't scout army composition any better than terran could with SCVs or raxes.
Protoss has it a bit easier unless there is a raven or turrets near the terrans army.

Scan if you NEED information that you can't get otherwise.

On March 13 2010 07:05 0neder wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, you don't need mules as much as you've been brainwashed to think only of econ.

On March 13 2010 07:17 Scorch wrote:
I think the problem is that the macro mechanics are too powerful in comparison with scan. If a scan costs 270 minerals, something isn't quite right. Having to make a choice is great, but deciding against MULE puts you back too much.

Make scan cost only ~35 energy? Move scan to the sensor tower?

On March 13 2010 07:14 Juicyfruit wrote:
The problem is, right now scans cost you one MULE and thus 270minerals no matter what because by the time one MULE is done, you only have the energy to call in another one. Imo, if the energy regen of the terran`s CC were boosted by a little bit, such that it regens... say 70 energy every 90 seconds instead of the 55 or so that it does now, then things would work out. That way, after every 3 or so MULE calls, you`ll have the energy left to perform a free scan. Or, if you need additional scans before that, only then do you sacrifice econ.

On March 13 2010 07:33 Ryhn wrote:


While you have your heart in the right place, this solution just leads us straight back to the original problem.

With the extra energy everyone would just get one extra MULE to boost their economy instead of taking their "free scan" -- because it wouldn't actually be free.

Maybe if Terran had an arbitrary limit to how many MULEs they could call in a time frame your solution would work. But even then they might just wait for their timer to cooldown and call in multiple MULEs at once.

At this point the timer becomes the current problem spawned by my solution, so we could try making the calculation dynamic. Instead of [X] MULEs every [Y] Seconds, Blizzard could figure out a function that calculates how much additional income from MULEs you've gathered at any given point, and cap -that- number by denying a MULE drop when it's econ boost would push you over your income limit.

Unfortunately, from this solution we have yet another problem. The design is becoming too implicitly complicated. The solution is quickly spiraling into obscure hidden rules. This isn't very intuitive and would constitute poor game design.

It does not seem to be an easy problem to fix.

On March 13 2010 07:46 Slunk wrote:
Why should terran get free minerals AND free maphack?

On March 13 2010 07:42 Irrelevant wrote:
I like how it is, it's a tactical choice of either getting the eco boost from mule or saving it for a scan, having both would just remove another level of tactics.

On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:


You know, my thinking has been similar to your own.

What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally.

With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit.

If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan.

People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice isn't theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize.

If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.

On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:


Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map?

(just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)

On March 13 2010 07:51 Ryhn wrote:


You know, my thinking has been similar to your own.

What if Blizzard made this "problem" intentionally.

With the current state of affairs, the MULE mechanic is something a Terran's opponent can exploit.

If the Terran player has a timing attack that relies on the income boost of a MULE, then harassing with units that require detection could possibly delay or ruin the Terran's plans by making him spend energy on Scan.

People argue that there is no choice, I would argue that the choice possibly wasn't intended to be theirs in the first place. It may have been designed as a choice for the Terran's opponent to utilize.

If I force you to scan me, I've just attacked your economy.

On March 13 2010 08:02 Whalecore wrote:
Perfect the way it is.

Scan is really powerful, MULE is really powerful.. now you have to make a strategic decision on what will be most worth it.

On March 13 2010 07:59 Juicyfruit wrote:


Yeah, what you say makes sense, but that just handicaps the Terrans further instead of balancing things.

Besides, I'd rather play safe and allow myself the luxury of a MULE than to play greedy and be forced to scan for timing pushes.

On March 13 2010 08:18 imperator-xy wrote:

this is how the macro mechanics are supposed to work.

as a protoss you could also create a strategy that relies on building zealots faster because of chrono boost, but you loose in terms of eco then.

come on, this is a strategy game, of course you have to think and make wise decisions instead of just be the guy whos remembering his macro mechanics better

On March 13 2010 08:28 Gedrah wrote:
There are other scouting options if you're hurting for minerals and need to drop mules instead of scanning. I don't really understand what change you're looking for... Two mana pools on the command center? A separate building for scanning? An addon? I play Terran almost exclusively and I usually just suck it up and decide what's more important to me. Scan and skimp on units once I know what my enemy has, or make mules and pump units "just in case" because I didn't scan. I also scout with SCVs even in the midgame, it's cheaper than a scan to suicide one SCV toward enemy base to get an idea what type of units he's making, or even 1 dropship with 6 marines and a marauder--you get intel, damage econ or tech, and see what kind of units come to respond. SC2 Terran is the least mobile but benefits the most from map control (Zerg creeping at a close second, and Protoss with warp gates at third)

On March 13 2010 08:36 squ1d wrote:
Stop crying about being a Terran - it is possibly the strongest race right now. Once you have three CCs, you can mule and scan like a mineral and maphacker.

If you want to change scan to another building, please increase time of chronoboost back again and lower energy requirements because I also want my race buffed.

On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:


Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map?

(just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)

On March 13 2010 08:29 FictionJV wrote:
Dear god, how many times do I have to repeat this untill you get it.

It's is NOT the fact that we have to make the choice it is the thing we have to make choices between.

Protoss chooses between getting up his econ faster or producing tech/units faster
Zerg chooses between making more units or getting his econ going faster

Whatever you choose, you benefit from it, since you still have your core ability's of gathering intell (overlords/observers)

Terran chooses between having more econ and losing it's core ability of gathering intell, or using that ability that it already had

In the first case he's sacrificing his scan for keeping up with the protoss/Zerg , in the second case he hasn't gained a single thing from the new macro mechanic.

again:

Terran's are not complaining that we have to make a choice, terran's are complaing about the things they have to make a choice between.

On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:


Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map?

(just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)

Dear god, how many times do I have to repeat this untill you get it.

It's is NOT the fact that we have to make the choice it is the thing we have to make choices between.

Protoss chooses between getting up his econ faster or producing tech/units faster
Zerg chooses between making more units or getting his econ going faster

Whatever you choose, you benefit from it, since you still have your core ability's of gathering intell (overlords/observers)

Terran chooses between having more econ and losing it's core ability of gathering intell, or using that ability that it already had

In the first case he's sacrificing his scan for keeping up with the protoss/Zerg , in the second case he hasn't gained a single thing from the new macro mechanic.

again:

Terran's are not complaining that we have to make a choice, terran's are complaing about the things they have to make a choice between.

On March 13 2010 09:00 Eiii wrote:


And if protoss produces all these permanent maphack obs to cover the map, they can't build anything else out of their robo. Plus, they cost money! Just showing how stupid your point is...

On March 13 2010 09:05 Oddysay wrote:


that just stupid , obs dont cost alot , you can make only 3-4 obs and know everything you need to know , just get out of here protoss seriously . the terran scans cost way more and the scans only last for some time , so what ur point ? .

we should get something like 50 for scans and 100-150 for mule

On March 13 2010 09:08 FictionJV wrote:
But scan's are also tied to energy, you can't have unlimited scans, so it's also impossible to scan the complete map.

And if you really want to produce that many obs you can put down an extra robo bay (wich is much cheaper then an extra cc + orbital command)

So basicly what you are saying is

Observer = Trading money for scouting
Terran macro mechanic = trading in your scouting for extra minerals.
(so those are equal to eachother)

Oh wait, but on top of that Protoss can also chronoboost with no drawbacks...

You guys pretend like the scan was actually added in sc2, here is some news for you, it already existed in sc1 and it wasn't overpowered there.


My whole point of the terran macro-mechanic is that it's just not on par with the rest their mechanics, nerf scan if you really want to, nerf the regen of the energy of the orbital command, but please make the macro mechanic more interesting then scouting (wich we already had) and getting some extra minerals (while gas is actually the real bottleneck)

On March 13 2010 09:30 Oddysay wrote:
yes but the scout for protoss and zerg can stay alive the whole game .

scans for terran last for some sec .

On March 13 2010 06:47 StarsPride wrote:

lol. and when ur opp switches to mass zealot from stalker or adds more then 2 collos. tell me.
how do u manage. Do you simple call GG and said i should have magically scouted that with my scv that got killed before it got to see anything

On March 13 2010 09:37 FictionJV wrote:
I love how this suddenly turned into an observer vs scan thread :p

But anyway, since we obviously can't seem to agree.

My point is that the whole terran macro-mechanic is just a bit bland.

I don't think it's bad that the scan is on the mechanic, but atleast make the other 2 options more interesting.

At the moment there is just an illusion of choice, you scan when you really have to, and when you don't need it you just get some extra minerals since the fortified supply depot sucks anyway.

They could have done so much more with it, and if I see how much Z/P their mechanics change the race compared and make macro actually more interesting.. (in the way of more fun/interesting not in the way of better/op) I just kinda feel bad about the terran ones.

On March 13 2010 09:51 Manifesto7 wrote:
And you aren't losing minerals, you are just delaying the minerals for the time it takes to gather 50 energy. Sometimes those minerals are more important now than intel, sometimes you can wait for those minerals because you need intel. Part of being a good player is knowing when. It seems pretty simple to me.

hurr durr 270 minerals. I don't see Protoss and Zerg players fretting about the fact that their scouting implements cost vespene gas.

On March 13 2010 10:40 SoFFacet wrote:
I think the argument most Terran players would identify with is that the while the Zerg and Protoss mechanics (Inject, Chrono) have been added strictly in addition to what already existed in SC1, MULE has been implemented in competition with Scan, a core Terran ability. This discrepancy feels unfair.

On March 13 2010 11:14 Nuublet wrote:
I don't really see a problem with the current state of things, I think scan vs mule is an interesting choice to make.

On March 13 2010 05:16 PokePill wrote:
They want you to have to make a choice, much like how Zerg has to decide how to use larva, or Toss chrono boosting upgrades, units, or workers.

I think a better buff would be nerfing the energy cost of all three and finding a balance Where scanning isn't literally costing you 270 minerals, but maybe 100-200.


Yeah, and?

Protoss can choose between faster tech, units or workers/eco.
Zerg can choose between faster units or drones.
...And Terran? We get to choose between eco and scanning our opponents base, we don't get any faster tech or units. Either they should nerf the cost on scan or make it use a seperate energy bar.

On March 13 2010 05:52 StarsPride wrote:

The point is That terran is highly more inclined to be using Scans then mules thus making there macro mechanic Mute compared to the others. I have wiped a zergs base clean of drones 3x over and still lost the game because he was mining faster then me and got a bigger army.. its complete fucking bullshit.
in bw if i were to kill a fully saturated base of drones even once i can guarentee i can take a 3rd having no issue. and secure a fairly large advantadge keeping him in the dark but in this game i cant do that cause hes still going to be on a fucking even footing with me in terms of army power

On March 13 2010 07:50 FictionJV wrote:


Why should protoss get a free chronoboost with no drawbacks and permanent maphack obs all over the map?

(just showing how stupid your point is, since every race has his own way of gathering intell, but terran is the only race that can't use it if they use their macromechanic)

On March 13 2010 11:49 MeruFM wrote:
As a terran player, I feel like the different macro mechanics given to the 3 races benefit us the least.

We already had scan before, now it's practically taken away from us because we need the mule just to be even with the protoss/zerg and their macro mechanic. And I don't even think it's that even. Just look at the current poll about what would be the most IMBA if put into SC1 and mule is the god damn lowest BY A WIDE MARGIN.

On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Observers are hands down the best intel ability in the game, and I don't think that's going to be under discussion at all.

On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Zerg itself has immense ability to be aware of what is going on around the map, both with cheap ultra-fast zerglings and with overlord placement. Hell, in this way zerg also shuts down the potential scouting of SCVs and the such (which aren't nearly as numerous now, especially early on).

On March 13 2010 13:00 QibingZero wrote:
Both of those are far better than scanning, and I don't even see how it's a debate. You people act like scanning reveals the entire map or something. What happens when a player scans and doesn't even get the intel he needs?

On March 13 2010 14:33 Xeris wrote:
Obviously StarsPride is a lazy fucker. I wanted to say something but it seems like everything has already been said in this thread. If you want to think of it in terms of economics, every decision you make in SC2 is an opportunity cost.

It's not like scanning is a sunk cost of 270 minerals. It costs valuable vespene gas to make an observer. What if I want to go for a really fast colossus or immortal, but I also want an observer? If I make the obs, my fighting unit will be out later. It's a decision. If I chrono boost, I have to decide if I want more money, faster upgrades, etc.

With Terran it's exactly the same type of decision making, you're choosing to do 1 thing and forego the other, stop bitching.

On March 13 2010 14:14 -orb- wrote:
Heads up: you can do scouting the old fashioned way with a unit, you don't have to use scan every single time to see if he's expanded etc.