[MSL] Nate MSL Grand Finals - Flash vs Jaedong - Page 227

On January 26 2010 14:20 danbel1005 wrote:


Agreed

On January 27 2010 10:56 StorrZerg wrote:
Eah, not sure if i agree with your statement. (about a regame being the best solution, but that may be my jaedong fan boy talking)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681

On February 01 2010 17:12 jblack wrote:
Let me start this off by saying I was cheering for Jaedong in the MSL finals, so nobody can accuse me of being a Flash fanboy... but even as a JD fan, that game 3 was complete crap.

I've heard a lot of people saying "yeah sure, Flash was behind but he could have come back... anything could have happened" ... I've even heard people say "Jaedong was way ahead he definitely won" ... and not just random people, but respected progamers have said that including NonY.

I did a detailed review of the VOD, to confirm that Jaedong won fair and square... and sadly the fact of the matter is Flash was ahead when the power went out. As I said I'm not basing that by any means on Flash fanboyism... I wanted JD to win. I actually spent about an hour and a half watching every aspect of the VOD and there is really no question about it... Flash won game 3.

I could be wrong... and I would appreciate it if a top level Zerg player, such as Day[9] could have a look at the VOD and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

Firstly, there are 3 main facts of life when it comes to late game TvZ as Zerg...
1) Firstly, since Terran is the most cost efficient race in the game, and Zerg is the least, the Zerg player needs at least 1 extra mining base than the Terran player to even be equal in terms of economy. Keep in mind, that it is important to emphasize "mining" base... having a hatchery next to a mineral field is all fine and well, but unless there are drones there mining it can't really be considered a mining base.
2) In order to have an effective Ultra/Ling with Defilers build the Zerg is going to want to be mining at least 4 gas geysers.
3) Since your hatcheries are the production buildings for both your worker and attack units, there are often times when you have to forgo building drones in order to keep an adequate sized army to fend off your opponent particularly if they are putting on a lot of pressure (which is a huge factor in this match).

Let's review a timeline of the game...
@ 8min 29sec in
Jaedong starts mining his 3rd gas at the 1 o'clock position.
@ 9min
Flash puts pressure on the 1 o'clock base and Jaedong takes his drones off gas.
@ 9min 25sec
Jaedong sends back his drones to the 1 o'clock, but puts them all on minerals.
@ 9min 45sec
The observer shows the 1 o'clock base and there are still no drones on gas.
@ 10min 24sec
The observer shows the 1 o'clock base and there is only 1 drone mining gas.
@ 10min 57sec
We finally see 3 drones on gas at the 1 o'clock base.
@ 13min 54sec
Flash takes out the 1 o'clock base.
@ 14min 31sec
The observer shows that despite the fact that Jaedong has had a hatchery at the 3 o'clock position for a while there is no drones mining, and no extractor built.
Note: During this entire time Jaedong only has a 3rd gas for about 3.5 - 4 minutes, and at this point is at 2 mining bases to Flash's 2 mining. Furthermore, if you look at the drone saturation at Jaedong's 2 mining bases he has 11 drones on minerals at his main, and 8-10 drones on minerals at his first expansion, whereas Flash's SCV saturation is huge.
@ 16min 20sec
Drones only begin to mine gas at the 8 o'clock base, however at 16min 35sec they get pulled off gas and are sent to attack Flash's units, and don't return to mining for at least another 10 seconds.
@ 18min 5sec
Flash's 3rd base is fully operations with at least 20 SCVs mining it
@ 18min 33sec
Jaedong's hatchery at 1 o'clock finishes being rebuilt.
@ 18min 43sec
Power goes out.

At this point Flash has 4 science vessels, 13 marines and 8 medics outside of Jaedong's bottom left expansion and at least 12-15 units at home (based on the unit movement on the minimap of units rallying from his cluster of barracks to his natural expo... watch Flash's base on the minimap at 18min 26sec onward)...and if you freaze frame the VOD the second before the power goes out you'll see that a group of units are just beginning to leave Flash's base.

Whereas Jaedong has 2 definlers, 4 scourge, 2 Ultralisks that have a combined total of about 35 HP... less than half a control group of lings and 1 reinforcing Ultralisk. Also keep in mind that throughout the course of the game Flash killed 22 Ultralisks, which is a total of 4400 worth of gas alone... and considering Jaedong was only up to 4 gas for the final 2 minutes of the game my guess is even if he got his 5th gas up at the top right... he would lose the bottom left base within a few minutes, and he'd be back down to 4. Either way he wasn't going to be pumping many more reinforcing Ultralisks any time soon.

On February 01 2010 17:36 DatTheMighty wrote:
I don't know much about the dynamics of tvz but watching the vod again gives me the same vibe that jaedongs economy wasn't that all ahead of flash. During the black out with so many people claimed that jaedong won the game i was convinced too but after rewatching the game i have a very different opinion.


Why didn't they just move on with the fourth and fifth set? See if one of them can win both if not then announce their decision afterword. At least we can get more games.

On February 01 2010 17:33 snapcrackle wrote:


J Black. I am really sorry i can't really go into detail with this but in NO way was Flash ahead. The main thing i can probably say is that just because Flash's scv saturation is huge he is NOT mining more than JD. JD still has the 7 o clock base with about 7-10 drones. And i'm sure the 3 o clock is getting saturated with drones as well as his natural which we know zerg runs out of later than terran. simply due to zerg mining at a slower speed (not too significant but a factor nonetheless).

Now flash is practically out of his natural with his main completely gone. This means that in a minute or less he will be only mining off his 9 clock. Which has NO gas and only 7 mineral patches.

The other details are at this link.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681

Anyways to conclude brief points on why flash isn't ahead.

1) you count all of flashes force... maybe a total of 20 marines and 10 medics although i think this is very generous of you to say this as i counted around 13 marines and 7 medics. Now you say that JD has 2 Ultra (granted they are low) 2 defilers and a handful of zerglings. I am sorry but this is NOT his total force. Sure you saw 1 ultralisk running to reinforce but most of the zerg army is near the nydus ready to reinforce 7 o clock which the observer NEVER in the last 10-20 seconds had a view of. Now lets just say JD off of his main/natural/3oclock/7 o clock is mining at a very slow rate... this would still mean he is making more money than JD who only has a 9 o clock and barely anything at his natural (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 look at the last image).


wow i was gonna make these brief points.. anyways lets make it brief then...
1) flash's force was not going to overpower jd's
Here is why: JD making more money.. simple as that... and flash has NO tanks.... with no tanks you need lots of SV's.. he doesn't have many SV's ... also they SV's are out of energy
2) JD has more bases
3) though flashes scv saturation is a lot.. he can only mine so much per second from 7 mineral spots. (keep in mind that have 80 scvs on 1 mineral spot does not mean you are mining faster than having 10 scv's on that 1 mineral spot)
4) JD is at full tech (although you could be whiney and say he has no lurkers but he skipped that step)
5) Flash was retreating... his attack at 7 o clock stopped. the longer he keeps zerg on that advantage the stronger JD's advantage

On January 27 2010 07:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:


I did read it, and yes, obviously anyone will be a little shaken up by the craziness that goes on, but my point was that compared to Flash, Jaedong really didn't have anything to worry about or work through. Things definitely went his way.

On February 01 2010 17:52 DatTheMighty wrote:


disagree with all 5 points

Point 1, 2 and 3 you're basicly saying jaedong was ahead due to a better economy which is debatable. Jaedong has 3 mining bases set up but the drone saturation was unclear on the other bases. And the pressured base at 7 o'clocl i am pretty sure was no more than 5 drone mining. Keep in mind he had to produce alot of units to defend and sunkens were set up as well.

4) Jd was at full tech but so was flash 3/3 armies and scienc vessel. Flash was missing tank but i think flash late game's tank was more for defending against a strong Late game lings/ultra back by strong "economy" ala flash vs zero. Keep in mind durign mid game jaedong's upgrades are ahead of flash but flash caught up toward the end.

5.this is probably ur worst point. flash at that point was just retreating from swarm as all good terran do. he was still on the onslaught like literally 5 seconds before blackout. i say the blackout was happening during his retreat.



I think the game could go either way, if jaedong swarm reaches flash's open third jaedong wins. his choice to xpand ther was really weird. it does have high ground and a choke though i think?



sorry for incoherent jibbering english not so good

On February 01 2010 18:13 Crt wrote:
Flash was ahead.

He's mined out at the main base, but had expanded (based on minimap) to his 3rd base. JD at that time had 4 bases, 1 (bottom right) is being shutdown by Flash. JD's main base was being mined out too. And within the next minute, he would only be running at 3 bases with the main natural being mined out.

There was no way JD could have pulled a win in that game if the power didn't go out.

The way Flash plays is that, he stays in his base most of the time until he feels safe enough to push. Once he pushes out, it's almost always a win.

On February 01 2010 17:33 snapcrackle wrote:
J Black. I am really sorry i can't really go into detail with this but in NO way was Flash ahead. The main thing i can probably say is that just because Flash's scv saturation is huge he is NOT mining more than JD. JD still has the 7 o clock base with about 7-10 drones. And i'm sure the 3 o clock is getting saturated with drones as well as his natural which we know zerg runs out of later than terran. simply due to zerg mining at a slower speed (not too significant but a factor nonetheless).

Now flash is practically out of his natural with his main completely gone. This means that in a minute or less he will be only mining off his 9 clock. Which has NO gas and only 7 mineral patches.

The other details are at this link.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681

Anyways to conclude brief points on why flash isn't ahead.

1) you count all of flashes force... maybe a total of 20 marines and 10 medics although i think this is very generous of you to say this as i counted around 13 marines and 7 medics. Now you say that JD has 2 Ultra (granted they are low) 2 defilers and a handful of zerglings. I am sorry but this is NOT his total force. Sure you saw 1 ultralisk running to reinforce but most of the zerg army is near the nydus ready to reinforce 7 o clock which the observer NEVER in the last 10-20 seconds had a view of. Now lets just say JD off of his main/natural/3oclock/7 o clock is mining at a very slow rate... this would still mean he is making more money than JD who only has a 9 o clock and barely anything at his natural (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 look at the last image).


wow i was gonna make these brief points.. anyways lets make it brief then...
1) flash's force was not going to overpower jd's
Here is why: JD making more money.. simple as that... and flash has NO tanks.... with no tanks you need lots of SV's.. he doesn't have many SV's ... also they SV's are out of energy
2) JD has more bases
3) though flashes scv saturation is a lot.. he can only mine so much per second from 7 mineral spots. (keep in mind that have 80 scvs on 1 mineral spot does not mean you are mining faster than having 10 scv's on that 1 mineral spot)
4) JD is at full tech (although you could be whiney and say he has no lurkers but he skipped that step)
5) Flash was retreating... his attack at 7 o clock stopped. the longer he keeps zerg on that advantage the stronger JD's advantage

Oh BTW: Flash was on 2 base the ENTIRE TIME.

JD was mining for several minutes from 2 o clock.. He then had 3 o clock for a LONG time And he started on 7. You say JD lost 22 ultra. Please do NOT forget how many vessels flash lost which i'm sure was a HEFTY bit and also that big attack that flash did on 3 o clock that got DEMOLISHED by around 10 ultras and 24 lings. WOW he lost a lot of his units all the while being ONLY 2 bases. He was running out... of minerals his 3 was going to die from swarm/lings only. No tanks.... no firebats... no way to handle swarm. If it wasn't going down it was not going to be mining.

(Sure the drone saturation wasn't high but please do not make that a big issue since it was good enough... if you watch enough zerg games you will see the drone saturation on each base is never that high... terrans and protoss make it high as they have to send a bunch of probes/scv's into their new expo to make the most out of i)

BTW #2: Flash was off on game 3.... though terran is suppose to be cost effective his attacks weren't really that cost effective... It seemed as though JD was the one taking advantage of micro while flash was really trying to force his way into 7 o clock... yes he had good micro with his units but did you see how a handful of links and 2-4 ultras kept blocking every single attack (with swarm )