[H] PvT @ Destination vs camper terrans? - Page 5

On August 12 2009 13:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:
Yeah, so I'm just a d+ protoss, but I can see your problem...
Your build is all wrong, you need to start out with the stove.

On August 12 2009 11:32 Failsafe wrote:
There are three gaping defects in this PvT.

Two Kwark has already pointed out. Your initial strategy is counter productive. You create the illusion of some kind of hidden tech by delaying goon range and then after you've convinced your opponent to play defensively you opt for 2 gate reaver instead of expanding aggressively.

The second is that you built an arbiter tech but only made one Stargate despite having ample gas for more. You need at least 2, and this is a huge leak in your play.

The third problem is an even larger leak, and probably explains most if not all of your difficulty in PvT. You chose to get arbiters but you don't have an arbiter until the 15 minute mark (despite the fact that you haven't been harassed at all). Your arbiter tech was roughly on time but you didn't DO ANYTHING with it. You had a Stargate and an Arbiter Tribunal just sitting around doing nothing.

Arbiter timing is ABSOLUTELY crucial to modern PvT because you HAVE to push the pace of the game if the terran (like this one) likes to turtle.

On the use of Arbiters in PvT: Upgrade the energy upgrade as soon as you have the tribunal. Wait a couple moments and start an arbiter (preferably two). This ensures that your first arbiters all benefit from the energy upgrade upon being built (and start with 63 energy).

Your PvT is too passive. You put all the control of the game into the opponents' hands as you have no way to efficiently attack him at any point.

To correct your play: Create a consistent early game that forces your opponent to do what you want, aside from that you play fine until midgame. After that you must time your arbiters properly so that recall becomes an asset as early as possible. If you opt for Arbiters it's absolutely essential that you have at least 2 before initially maxing out, and in most situations you should have at least another 2 in production. As soon as you max out several things should happen. You should lay down more gateways, though never more than perhaps 20 even on macro maps. You should begin probing intently as to your opponents' weakest points (and there must inevitably be weak points as you will max out ahead of him and have recall). And finally, once you are maxed out, have 15-20 gateways, and roughly 2,000 minerals you must commit to an attack that will do as much damage as possible and discombobulate the Terran.

With these simple rules in mind your PvT will improve drastically.

On August 12 2009 23:47 Failsafe wrote:
I'd include a replay or two but I have no idea how to upload / post them. Are there instructions anywhere?

On August 13 2009 01:59 Failsafe wrote:
I'd say both games are between B- and A- level and feature better Terran than the one in the OP

On August 13 2009 06:21 Failsafe wrote:
Alright, my bad. I'll remove them.

While I do think I am pretty good at PvT, I genuinely thought the replays were good examples of a meaningful difference in strategy. On the one hand, your late game was very passive and illustrated how an intelligent turtling Terran could effectively prevent Protoss from making a sufficient dent unless the Protoss had a cohesive, aggressive late game strategy. On the other hand I thought the replays offered some indication of what I thought that strategy to be, not that I executed it perfectly nor that my opponents were capable of the same level defense as Koreans. You can understand my surprise, though, to see a strong Protoss player losing a game with two armies worth of resources in the bank and no clear indication of any strategy for what to do with them.

On August 13 2009 10:19 Kwark wrote:
On a related note, Shauni, I saw you use shuttle storms effectively in that rep. How do you micro that exactly? I find if I leave the shuttle stationary I don't have the clicking accuracy to select ht and if I drop them on the move I have to either drop them one at a time and storm before returning to the shuttle and dropping the next or risk losing them all to vultures. In early game battles I can use them fairly well but as the scale of the battle goes up the amount of micro involved increases too (for the Protoss at least).

On August 13 2009 10:19 Kwark wrote:
On a related note, Shauni, I saw you use shuttle storms effectively in that rep. How do you micro that exactly? I find if I leave the shuttle stationary I don't have the clicking accuracy to select ht and if I drop them on the move I have to either drop them one at a time and storm before returning to the shuttle and dropping the next or risk losing them all to vultures. In early game battles I can use them fairly well but as the scale of the battle goes up the amount of micro involved increases too (for the Protoss at least).

On August 13 2009 10:19 Kwark wrote:
On a related note, Shauni, I saw you use shuttle storms effectively in that rep. How do you micro that exactly? I find if I leave the shuttle stationary I don't have the clicking accuracy to select ht and if I drop them on the move I have to either drop them one at a time and storm before returning to the shuttle and dropping the next or risk losing them all to vultures. In early game battles I can use them fairly well but as the scale of the battle goes up the amount of micro involved increases too (for the Protoss at least).

On August 13 2009 09:58 Nevuk wrote:

I saw the replays and am curious about why you so rarely used storm - in the one vs game, I think, you never made templar despite having an archives and his tanks being clumped much of the time, and in both you rarely used it to engage the push. Just a stylistic prefrence or is there something deeper than that?

On August 13 2009 10:19 Kwark wrote:
On a related note, Shauni, I saw you use shuttle storms effectively in that rep. How do you micro that exactly? I find if I leave the shuttle stationary I don't have the clicking accuracy to select ht and if I drop them on the move I have to either drop them one at a time and storm before returning to the shuttle and dropping the next or risk losing them all to vultures. In early game battles I can use them fairly well but as the scale of the battle goes up the amount of micro involved increases too (for the Protoss at least).