[H] PvT @ Destination vs camper terrans? - Page 4

On August 12 2009 09:03 SkepTicAL wrote:
After reading this all, i suggest mass scouts.

On August 12 2009 09:13 Kwark wrote:

Bizarrely enough, that might have worked. The problem with a carrier switch is the build time lets him level you before they're done while getting goliaths up. If you had 12 stargates and 3-3 grades prepared a scout switch after a mass army suicide might actually be effective. Only because the Terran only had one working expo though. He was unable to rapidly replace units if he ever lost his army.

On August 12 2009 10:10 lazz wrote:

i hope youre not serious, lol

On August 12 2009 09:13 Kwark wrote:

Bizarrely enough, that might have worked. The problem with a carrier switch is the build time lets him level you before they're done while getting goliaths up. If you had 12 stargates and 3-3 grades prepared a scout switch after a mass army suicide might actually be effective. Only because the Terran only had one working expo though. He was unable to rapidly replace units if he ever lost his army.

On August 12 2009 11:32 Failsafe wrote:
There are three gaping defects in this PvT.

Two Kwark has already pointed out. Your initial strategy is counter productive. You create the illusion of some kind of hidden tech by delaying goon range and then after you've convinced your opponent to play defensively you opt for 2 gate reaver instead of expanding aggressively.

The second is that you built an arbiter tech but only made one Stargate despite having ample gas for more. You need at least 2, and this is a huge leak in your play.

The third problem is an even larger leak, and probably explains most if not all of your difficulty in PvT. You chose to get arbiters but you don't have an arbiter until the 15 minute mark (despite the fact that you haven't been harassed at all). Your arbiter tech was roughly on time but you didn't DO ANYTHING with it. You had a Stargate and an Arbiter Tribunal just sitting around doing nothing.

Arbiter timing is ABSOLUTELY crucial to modern PvT because you HAVE to push the pace of the game if the terran (like this one) likes to turtle.

On the use of Arbiters in PvT: Upgrade the energy upgrade as soon as you have the tribunal. Wait a couple moments and start an arbiter (preferably two). This ensures that your first arbiters all benefit from the energy upgrade upon being built (and start with 63 energy).

Your PvT is too passive. You put all the control of the game into the opponents' hands as you have no way to efficiently attack him at any point.

To correct your play: Create a consistent early game that forces your opponent to do what you want, aside from that you play fine until midgame. After that you must time your arbiters properly so that recall becomes an asset as early as possible. If you opt for Arbiters it's absolutely essential that you have at least 2 before initially maxing out, and in most situations you should have at least another 2 in production. As soon as you max out several things should happen. You should lay down more gateways, though never more than perhaps 20 even on macro maps. You should begin probing intently as to your opponents' weakest points (and there must inevitably be weak points as you will max out ahead of him and have recall). And finally, once you are maxed out, have 15-20 gateways, and roughly 2,000 minerals you must commit to an attack that will do as much damage as possible and discombobulate the Terran.

With these simple rules in mind your PvT will improve drastically.

Some notes on probe count: Consider some research published on TL.net about the marginal returns of additional probes. Namely, there is a huge gulf once you have a number of probes equal to one and a half times the number of mineral patches at your expansion until around two and a half times the number mineral patches where more mining probes really doesn't benefit you so much. This is important because in your replay there were like 15 probes mining at a 7 patch base. So you were something like in the middle of this gulf with several hundred minerals not really well spent. If you watch some FPVODs of bisu available on youtube you'll see that the TL.net research is corroborated there. Bisu makes roughly the amount of probes I'm suggesting and it seems evident that many Koreans are aware of this phenomenon.

On cutting probes: Probes cuts, aside from merely observing efficiency should be in response to your opponent's decisions. You should really only cut probes in an anticipation of an attack, timing the probe cut to maximize your army strength before the attack (but I guess this is largely obvious and depends on your ability to read your opponent's timings). Not specifically directed to Shauni: reactionary probe cutting is integral to properly executing double expos without leaving yourself incredibly vulnerable to Terran timing attacks. Reactionary probe cuts are less important for the type of build Shauni did.

And that's how straight up PvT with arbiters is played. I'm persuaded by evidence that this is perfect. Good luck fellow Protosses!

On August 12 2009 11:32 Failsafe wrote:
On the use of Arbiters in PvT: Upgrade the energy upgrade as soon as you have the tribunal. Wait a couple moments and start an arbiter (preferably two). This ensures that your first arbiters all benefit from the energy upgrade upon being built (and start with 63 energy).

On August 12 2009 12:48 Kwark wrote:

The rest of your post was all excellent advice but I'm afraid you're wrong here. The energy upgrade must be complete at the start of a building a unit for them to benefit from it upon completion. The correct way to do it is to start energy upgrade and arbiter as soon as you have tribunal and then wait a few seconds for the upgrade to complete before building the second one. Only the second round of arbiters will benefit from the extra energy.