[H] PvT @ Destination vs camper terrans? - Page 2

On August 10 2009 11:31 SkepTicAL wrote:
Play SKT1 Protoss style and you won't even have to get to late game. Infernal does it to me all the time ~_~

On August 10 2009 12:27 foppa wrote:
1) don't scout after your first pylon on a 2 player map; scout after the gateway there is nothing to see until than. don't try to kill scv's, you aren't playing for the msl finals here so its ok if your probe doesn't end up with 6 kills. you mention you don't play your standard BO but its your own fault for losing the scout.

2)start building obs as soon as your reaver is done. they do not cost many minerals so start producing 3 at same time.

3) you go shuttle reaver, you're micro is strong and you do damage. why is this a problem? well instead of taking a third at this point you add 4 gateways and a citadel. he can't push out until he kills your reaver. you already fall behind because of siege expo vs 2 gate robo build and now you take a late 3rd. your build is good against 2 fact granted but he didn't 2 fact.

4) 82/82 stuck on a pylon. nothing more to add.

5) @9 minutes - you have 800 gas. this means two things not enough obs, not enough tech. you're citadel should come soon after your third base.as soon as citadel is done start legs add a templar archives and a stargate. your arbiter tech is so late because you made units out of 6 gateways because taking your third. if you study korean vods you will notice standard BO is 1 gate expand than add robo and a second gateway. the timing to take a third is shortly after your reaver finishes. the next 300 minerals (without cutting probes, nor dragoons nor obs!) go to 2 more gates for a total of 4. and the next 150 go to Citadel. at this point there is 2 options based on scouting. you can delay arbiter tech if terran is doing a gay 6 factory and is getting really aggressive on you and get 4 more gateways for a total of 8 or if they are playing a passive game in which their goal is to take a 3rd you can get your archives and stargate before your 4 gateways and even before leg speed. start making zealots from your 8 gateways. you do not need to start producing zealots before this point except for the 2 going into your shuttle.

6) probe cut the hardest thing in Starcraft. stop making probes when you throw down your extra 4 gateways. you should actually only have about 70 when you cut. when you have 400 minerals take your 4th base and resume making probes until your 4th is done. throw down 4 more gateways for a total of 12.

general tip: always start gateways at the same time and right before a dragoon is about to finish. this maximized unit production and optimized macro. all your gates finish at the same time and finish right when you need to make another round of units. also do no make zealots until you need to because a zealot and a dragoon do not take the same amount of time to build. dragoons are also able to deal with dropship play and vulture harass unlike zealots.

7) you expanded to the wrong third. yes it protects your 4th but they can abuse the cliff near the 2o'clock to push your third. the 10 o'clock allows you to prevent that shit by allowing your pylon wall to take hits for you. also the koreans take that third so their is probably more strategic reasons that I do not fully understand YET.

8) you forgot to put guys on your third gas. you can start a second stargate when your first arbiter is about 2/3 of the way complete. you have enough gas for this because you are making pure zealot and arbiters take 3 years to build.

9) because of earlier arbiter tech you will not get to a point where you have 8k in the bank. strategic recalls will allow you to be aggressive as you should not be letting the terran max. it is a BAD thing to let a terran max on a 2 player map because you will mine out first.

gl hf

On August 10 2009 12:27 foppa wrote:
1) don't scout after your first pylon on a 2 player map; scout after the gateway there is nothing to see until than. don't try to kill scv's, you aren't playing for the msl finals here so its ok if your probe doesn't end up with 6 kills. you mention you don't play your standard BO but its your own fault for losing the scout.

2)start building obs as soon as your reaver is done. they do not cost many minerals so start producing 3 at same time.

3) you go shuttle reaver, you're micro is strong and you do damage. why is this a problem? well instead of taking a third at this point you add 4 gateways and a citadel. he can't push out until he kills your reaver. you already fall behind because of siege expo vs 2 gate robo build and now you take a late 3rd. your build is good against 2 fact granted but he didn't 2 fact.

4) 82/82 stuck on a pylon. nothing more to add.

5) @9 minutes - you have 800 gas. this means two things not enough obs, not enough tech. you're citadel should come soon after your third base.as soon as citadel is done start legs add a templar archives and a stargate. your arbiter tech is so late because you made units out of 6 gateways because taking your third. if you study korean vods you will notice standard BO is 1 gate expand than add robo and a second gateway. the timing to take a third is shortly after your reaver finishes. the next 300 minerals (without cutting probes, nor dragoons nor obs!) go to 2 more gates for a total of 4. and the next 150 go to Citadel. at this point there is 2 options based on scouting. you can delay arbiter tech if terran is doing a gay 6 factory and is getting really aggressive on you and get 4 more gateways for a total of 8 or if they are playing a passive game in which their goal is to take a 3rd you can get your archives and stargate before your 4 gateways and even before leg speed. start making zealots from your 8 gateways. you do not need to start producing zealots before this point except for the 2 going into your shuttle.

6) probe cut the hardest thing in Starcraft. stop making probes when you throw down your extra 4 gateways. you should actually only have about 70 when you cut. when you have 400 minerals take your 4th base and resume making probes until your 4th is done. throw down 4 more gateways for a total of 12.

general tip: always start gateways at the same time and right before a dragoon is about to finish. this maximized unit production and optimized macro. all your gates finish at the same time and finish right when you need to make another round of units. also do no make zealots until you need to because a zealot and a dragoon do not take the same amount of time to build. dragoons are also able to deal with dropship play and vulture harass unlike zealots.

7) you expanded to the wrong third. yes it protects your 4th but they can abuse the cliff near the 2o'clock to push your third. the 10 o'clock allows you to prevent that shit by allowing your pylon wall to take hits for you. also the koreans take that third so their is probably more strategic reasons that I do not fully understand YET.

8) you forgot to put guys on your third gas. you can start a second stargate when your first arbiter is about 2/3 of the way complete. you have enough gas for this because you are making pure zealot and arbiters take 3 years to build.

9) because of earlier arbiter tech you will not get to a point where you have 8k in the bank. strategic recalls will allow you to be aggressive as you should not be letting the terran max. it is a BAD thing to let a terran max on a 2 player map because you will mine out first.

gl hf

On August 10 2009 16:32 Shauni wrote:
I don't really like balancing between minimal amount of units/maximum amount of expansions.

On August 10 2009 19:51 Shauni wrote:
Unless I know I'm playing a progamer or very good amateur korean, I always try to play it as safe as possible, so that I have something to fall back on if he tries an allin or something unexpected. I suppose it is me underrating my opponents, by thinking 'once it gets to lategame, I'll win with my superior game management'. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to work, especially on maps favorable for terran such as destination. But if you always play on the edge of losing all the time, you won't last very long on a ladder... Despite what Louder says, I'm usually on the defending side of various allins in games, so my playstyle is very cautious, especially in PvT. Oystein always says I should take more risks in this matchup, but I always lose when I do that. This is why I don't do such things as 14 nex, 1 gate exp and similiar 'risky' strategies anymore.

On August 10 2009 11:51 Kwark wrote:

Willing to share any reps?

On August 10 2009 19:51 Shauni wrote:
Unless I know I'm playing a progamer or very good amateur korean, I always try to play it as safe as possible, so that I have something to fall back on if he tries an allin or something unexpected. I suppose it is me underrating my opponents, by thinking 'once it gets to lategame, I'll win with my superior game management'. Sometimes it just doesn't seem to work, especially on maps favorable for terran such as destination. But if you always play on the edge of losing all the time, you won't last very long on a ladder... Despite what Louder says, I'm usually on the defending side of various allins in games, so my playstyle is very cautious, especially in PvT. Oystein always says I should take more risks in this matchup, but I always lose when I do that. This is why I don't do such things as 14 nex, 1 gate exp and similiar 'risky' strategies anymore.

On August 10 2009 12:27 foppa wrote:
1) don't scout after your first pylon on a 2 player map; scout after the gateway there is nothing to see until than. don't try to kill scv's, you aren't playing for the msl finals here so its ok if your probe doesn't end up with 6 kills. you mention you don't play your standard BO but its your own fault for losing the scout.

2)start building obs as soon as your reaver is done. they do not cost many minerals so start producing 3 at same time.

3) you go shuttle reaver, you're micro is strong and you do damage. why is this a problem? well instead of taking a third at this point you add 4 gateways and a citadel. he can't push out until he kills your reaver. you already fall behind because of siege expo vs 2 gate robo build and now you take a late 3rd. your build is good against 2 fact granted but he didn't 2 fact.

4) 82/82 stuck on a pylon. nothing more to add.

5) @9 minutes - you have 800 gas. this means two things not enough obs, not enough tech. you're citadel should come soon after your third base.as soon as citadel is done start legs add a templar archives and a stargate. your arbiter tech is so late because you made units out of 6 gateways because taking your third. if you study korean vods you will notice standard BO is 1 gate expand than add robo and a second gateway. the timing to take a third is shortly after your reaver finishes. the next 300 minerals (without cutting probes, nor dragoons nor obs!) go to 2 more gates for a total of 4. and the next 150 go to Citadel. at this point there is 2 options based on scouting. you can delay arbiter tech if terran is doing a gay 6 factory and is getting really aggressive on you and get 4 more gateways for a total of 8 or if they are playing a passive game in which their goal is to take a 3rd you can get your archives and stargate before your 4 gateways and even before leg speed. start making zealots from your 8 gateways. you do not need to start producing zealots before this point except for the 2 going into your shuttle.

6) probe cut the hardest thing in Starcraft. stop making probes when you throw down your extra 4 gateways. you should actually only have about 70 when you cut. when you have 400 minerals take your 4th base and resume making probes until your 4th is done. throw down 4 more gateways for a total of 12.

general tip: always start gateways at the same time and right before a dragoon is about to finish. this maximized unit production and optimized macro. all your gates finish at the same time and finish right when you need to make another round of units. also do no make zealots until you need to because a zealot and a dragoon do not take the same amount of time to build. dragoons are also able to deal with dropship play and vulture harass unlike zealots.

7) you expanded to the wrong third. yes it protects your 4th but they can abuse the cliff near the 2o'clock to push your third. the 10 o'clock allows you to prevent that shit by allowing your pylon wall to take hits for you. also the koreans take that third so their is probably more strategic reasons that I do not fully understand YET.

8) you forgot to put guys on your third gas. you can start a second stargate when your first arbiter is about 2/3 of the way complete. you have enough gas for this because you are making pure zealot and arbiters take 3 years to build.

9) because of earlier arbiter tech you will not get to a point where you have 8k in the bank. strategic recalls will allow you to be aggressive as you should not be letting the terran max. it is a BAD thing to let a terran max on a 2 player map because you will mine out first.

gl hf

On August 10 2009 08:15 ColdLava wrote:
I wish more high level players like Shauni would openly ask for help in TLNet forums because I learn a lot even though it's way past my skill level. so thanks for this thread shauni :D a lot of subtle things in gameplay are revealed in these type of threads, and these threads help just about everyone

On August 11 2009 03:52 Shauni wrote:
After talking for a while with Rage and rewatching the replay again I realized that I should be a lot more careful on in which way to max out my army (the first time around). I was maxed out while he was still around 140 pop - even so I don't believe I could have attacked anything up front, since his tankline was well spread over his natural bridge and third.
Because I maxed out with mostly zealgoon and only two arbiters, I let him push to his 'highground' third very easily which also made me lose the game in the end. Later on, I gain a better army composition (even though it's not optimal) with storms and stasis yet it's too late since he's already at 200/200 and set up properly across his half while my expansions starts to run out.


Some people seem to mention that I should get my third up very early, especially after being put in such a disadvantageous build. I'm still not sure whether this is good or bad advice, but Rage said something interesting about how I should be using timing based builds to get superior economy (alike the one foppa talked about - with cutting probes and similiar) instead of the usual 'flowing' style I use in PvT - where I amass units and use my extra minerals to expand once I'm confident I won't get destroyed by a timing push or persistent vulture harass.
That is on such maps as Destination and against this type of play... But it's difficult to know how the terran will play, how aggressive he will be and when he will max out, especially when I couldn't get an obs inside his base.


I don't think you watched the replay at the time you posted those replies Louder (the first post wasn't very relevant since he barely vulture harassed at all and never moved past the bridges in the game), but I agree with you on most points, you corrected his advice post better than I did.
Hallucinating arbiters is such a desperate move though. I only see them being used in games where terran has an extremely well setup recall defense and has no real openings. It usually ends in failure anyway. I still have a lot of nightmares from the Blue Storm lategame days when I didn't realize you had to go carriers there else you died. I made a similiar help thread for that map and I believe Louder (not sure, might have been someone else) also posted a similiar desperate theorycrafting thread about that map, something about mind controlling scvs to get a double limit army.
In any case, I don't believe Destination is as bad as Blue Storm in lategame because of the better layout, but since terrans has gotten a lot better at using EMP (even though this terran was no monster in that regard) it can feel extremely hopeless in some longer games.