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http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18489
I feel like yoon vs flash here if anyone seen that game. It's not a matter of overall skill, I get totally demolished in lategame by most terrans past B- (this was a typical B- terran) and I seriously don't know what to do anymore, so I decided to ask TLnet for help! My PvT has always been my weakest matchup, but it's extra evident on maps where it's hard to play past 20 minutes (because I prefer long games in PvT).
I didn't play my usual build because I was extremely paranoid of a 2 factory push - which made my arbiters late - which in turn made me unable to attempt recall. Yes yes, if you're going arbiters you have to recall vs camper terrans... or maybe go carriers? I thought since I had relatively early upgrades I could match him in a ground army fight, but I was WRONG. Yeah, I know I might have made a few bad attacks, but to my defense it is really difficult to know where his army is after he has science vessels. Yeah, I was ahead the first half, but it always looks like this where he slowly crawls back into the game after I suicide army after army and takes his highground exp after his third and I have nowhere else to expand. Should I expand at his highground early to avoid this type of situation?
A few questions:
Did I make too many probes? I'm always unsure of how many probes to make in this matchup. If I want a big army, my expansions won't be saturated and there is no point in mass expanding and I won't be able to replenish my army. If I play with a lot of probes on the other hand, my main army gets smashed over and over again because it just consists of 4 control groups... Where is the ideal balance?
What do I do with my surplus economy once I'm 200/200? Did I add too few gates? Should I have made 10 stargates instead and carriers once my army dies? If so, what about air upgrades?
If I am staying with ground army, how do I know where the ideal place to attack is in lategame? I feel like a scared little rabbit who sits at limit and then when terran finally moves out I try to make a surprise attack which usually fails... I think my main weakness is that because I get scared and stressed, I feel like I don't have time to organize my attacks better and flank well.
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United States41645 Posts
I feel the exact same way about PvT, especially on Destination. I've not found the carrier switch effective because the Terran can so easily suicide his army to kill your expansions before the carriers reach a critical mass and then play defensively with 3-3 goliaths until he has enough to win. I try it anyway because when they camp the islands and have depots and ebays all over the middle I just don't know what else to do but it rarely works.
If I can't get an early advantage I like to expand to 3 and 9 before 2 and 11 (if I'm 12) because these are the game deciding expos and 4 gas is sexy. When the Terran does his inevitable push, generally with emp and blocking buildings and other lameness towards them I just abandon them and pull back to the other expansions which I've been undermining. Just trying to steal his minerals. If I hit 200/200 and can't do anything I like to start suiciding probes to get arbiters.
The best thing I've found against this is having a LOT of arbiters and waiting for them to make the first move. It's not unreasonable to have 12 arbiters, it's enough to keep a large portion of his army in constant stasis once he tries moving out or to do a recall + stasis on ramp while holding his inevitable allin response by some blocking stasis in key locations. Just whatever you do don't put them in the same control group because they will stack and EMP GGs you.
Going to watch your rep now.
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United States41645 Posts
And I'd say about 80 probes midgame and 50 late game.
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United States41645 Posts
Firstly, I know you're better than me so please don't take offence to my critique. I do it with respect.
You can't afford to send your scout probe on 8 and then lose it. All you really need to know is how many scvs on gas for how long, you can get away with a later scout and still check that. For stuff like rax flashing the first dragoon can check. Your late range upgrade I'm assuming was just to mindfuck with him as well as your hidden pylon but I don't get the transition. You mindfuck him into thinking proxy robo rush or proxy dark rush and then go 2 gateways and a robo. He's most likely going to be going ultrasafe many turret FE against the build you're representing and instead of rushing your own expansion you opt for an opening which is really hard to pressure him with on Destination (bridges vs tanks are -_-). I don't disagree with mindfucking but if you mindfuck them into playing scared and defensive then your follow up should be to expand.
Once you have 2 dragoons put one on each bridge. Your mindfuck worked and he wasted a load of time scouting around the map for the proxies before checking to see if you'd expanded. He shouldn't have been able to see, it doesn't cost you anything to at the nat wall early game, especially with well placed pylons to scout drops. By letting him see you not only didn't have some proxy thing going on but also hadn't expanded you let him narrow you down to about 2 builds. Dark drop rush and some kind of mass goon attack on his natural. One of them is easy to block if you know it's coming, the other is lolDestination EZ. I just don't see any kind of 2 fac here because he shouldn't be using that against what you're representing.
At 7:30 you're already considerably behind. 2 well placed tanks have neutered your 7 dragoon aggression and he's been on 2 base for some time while you're still on 1 with a second coming. Your reaver attack wasn't bad but it didn't work with your army or do enough damage. Remember you've still got those useless dragoons sitting there. Your reaver micro is good enough to deal with the tanks holding the high ground and let your dragoons attack/move/attack micro their way into the nat. It's really difficult for a terran to redeploy his tanks from the back of his base to the ramp to hold that off with an active reaver and shuttle because you can get so many free tank kills as they attempt to move into position. That attack would have been the only working transition from your opening and you didn't use it. Your build was disjointed and didn't go anywhere.
You macroed up well, sufficiently to stop him attempting to tornado up to your third although 1 stargate arbiters isn't enough off 3 gas if you're not going for ht as well. Even worse that you stayed on 1 stargate after taking your 4th gas, arbiters are cheap but have a considerable build time, you need to make more stargates.
Whenever you check to see if they've taken 7 and 8 you should always go behind the nat and storm. It's just free kills for Protoss. I get that storm wasn't a part of your build but when you're nearing being maxed and have a load of money you should start diversifying because you pretty much can't waste minerals when you're 200/200.
18:53, he's maxed, he's at 2-2 and he's finally moving out. This is when you HAVE to hit him with the recall (and ideally have 5 more arbiters behind to hold up his counter). Yeah, he had a lot of turrets. Suicide a corsair or send 2 arbiters. Also there were routes in if you use an ob to scout them out. You cannot fight that army in the open ground. You especially cannot fight it without storm and with only 3 arbiters. Not really sure what you were thinking tbh but Protoss can only beat a maxed upgraded terran army with magic and you didn't have it. Failing that you avoid the terran and run away and try and counter, and you didn't do that either.
You did a nice job vs it anyway but you need to stasis further back. Against an army that size you're not going to be able to roll it up, the best you can hope for is to give them a bloody nose. Stasis half a screen back from the front and then kill everything in front of that stasis. Anything behind that you're not going after, you just wanna kill the front stuff. Stasising at the front and then trying to kill the units in the middle creates walls for your units to get through and means there is no natural point for you to disengage. After you disengage he just moves forwards up to the stasis and he's exactly where he was when it wears off.
Maynard all your probes to 9. If you're desperately trying to hold him up and buy time, which you were, then use the time. You were suicidng arbiters and dragoons to keep him from taking that part of the map but you knew he would inevitably. Dry it up before he gets there or your sacrifices are wasted.
MAKE MORE STARGATES. You're sitting there on 200/200 with 10k minerals and he's sitting there on 200/200 with 600 minerals and you can't do anything because you can't break his army. Go round it. You're a mile ahead, you can afford to send 10 arbiters and recall everything you have, probes and all, into his main then rebuild it all if you lose them. The single decisive factor that lost you this game was the lack of arbiters.
Once he took the bottom left it was a done deal if he could hold it. All game your only advantage was that you could replace your army if you lose it whereas he couldn't. The bottom left changed that and it was over.
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My initial build was to prevent 2 fac vultures or some kind of early drop. You say that terrans will get paranoid and turret up their main when they scout no goon range, but some good terrans think further than that and do something unexpected just for the sake of it. I'd probably have chosen a build that left me with better economy if I didn't lose my first probe. The thing is, I'm not confident with things like 1 gate obs exp on desti since most 2 fac builds rape that easily. I just did this build to get to mid/lategame and I wouldn't see it as a failure not being able to break his nat. It was never my intention anyway. I sometimes do that nat break using my reaver, but it felt like I'd lose the shuttle to turrets that way. I believe he had two turrets blocking the path to his tanks.
I've never walked behind his nat to storm in PvT, I suppose it could be useful. 1 stargate is enough when you're on 3 gas and get storm + upgrades. But yeah, my second stargate should have been earlier, I didn't want to emphasis on the arbiter tech so much this game since it was so late and I feared his push would come before I even had 2 stasis.
Also, I believe it is very difficult to stasis in the back of his army due to vessels. I always try to get my stasis off as quick as possible or my arbiter will be nullified by EMP instantly...
I really hate those stalled 200/200 games, how do I play my PvT aggressively in lategame?
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Ah Shauni, not much of Teamliquid is above A-, so I'm not sure exactly how much help you can get here. Maybe you can ask Idra about how progamers play late game PvT or what he thinks is really hard to play against in TvP. Maybe some tips from like movie or some other CJ Protoss can help you here.
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Canada1673 Posts
I wish more high level players like Shauni would openly ask for help in TLNet forums because I learn a lot even though it's way past my skill level. so thanks for this thread shauni :D a lot of subtle things in gameplay are revealed in these type of threads, and these threads help just about everyone
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I would recommend talking to Mana, JF and other high level gamers ( and i think you are just as good btw) im sure they have had this problem with this type of Terran or maybe other types that you know how to counter. I really couldnt give you advise and if i tried you would probably know it already, the only thing i could have said was to mass arbiters and mass stasis half or more of his army and camp until they unstasis. But Kwark already said that.
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On August 10 2009 08:09 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
Ah Shauni, not much of Teamliquid is above A-, so I'm not sure exactly how much help you can get here. Maybe you can ask Idra about how progamers play late game PvT or what he thinks is really hard to play against in TvP. Maybe some tips from like movie or some other CJ Protoss can help you here.
Well people can still be good at the theoretical part of the game even if they cant play at that level so making help threads can still be useful.
As for the question itself its something I also would really like to get an answer to because I am suffering from the exact same problems and so often I end up losing games vs Terrans I feel I would beat on other maps but loose pretty much only because of the layout of the map.
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On August 10 2009 07:28 Kwark wrote:
Firstly, I know you're better than me so please don't take offence to my critique. I do it with respect.
You can't afford to send your scout probe on 8 and then lose it. All you really need to know is how many scvs on gas for how long, you can get away with a later scout and still check that. For stuff like rax flashing the first dragoon can check. Your late range upgrade I'm assuming was just to mindfuck with him as well as your hidden pylon but I don't get the transition. You mindfuck him into thinking proxy robo rush or proxy dark rush and then go 2 gateways and a robo. He's most likely going to be going ultrasafe many turret FE against the build you're representing and instead of rushing your own expansion you opt for an opening which is really hard to pressure him with on Destination (bridges vs tanks are -_-). I don't disagree with mindfucking but if you mindfuck them into playing scared and defensive then your follow up should be to expand.
Once you have 2 dragoons put one on each bridge. Your mindfuck worked and he wasted a load of time scouting around the map for the proxies before checking to see if you'd expanded. He shouldn't have been able to see, it doesn't cost you anything to at the nat wall early game, especially with well placed pylons to scout drops. By letting him see you not only didn't have some proxy thing going on but also hadn't expanded you let him narrow you down to about 2 builds. Dark drop rush and some kind of mass goon attack on his natural. One of them is easy to block if you know it's coming, the other is lolDestination EZ. I just don't see any kind of 2 fac here because he shouldn't be using that against what you're representing.
At 7:30 you're already considerably behind. 2 well placed tanks have neutered your 7 dragoon aggression and he's been on 2 base for some time while you're still on 1 with a second coming. Your reaver attack wasn't bad but it didn't work with your army or do enough damage. Remember you've still got those useless dragoons sitting there. Your reaver micro is good enough to deal with the tanks holding the high ground and let your dragoons attack/move/attack micro their way into the nat. It's really difficult for a terran to redeploy his tanks from the back of his base to the ramp to hold that off with an active reaver and shuttle because you can get so many free tank kills as they attempt to move into position. That attack would have been the only working transition from your opening and you didn't use it. Your build was disjointed and didn't go anywhere.
You macroed up well, sufficiently to stop him attempting to tornado up to your third although 1 stargate arbiters isn't enough off 3 gas if you're not going for ht as well. Even worse that you stayed on 1 stargate after taking your 4th gas, arbiters are cheap but have a considerable build time, you need to make more stargates.
Whenever you check to see if they've taken 7 and 8 you should always go behind the nat and storm. It's just free kills for Protoss. I get that storm wasn't a part of your build but when you're nearing being maxed and have a load of money you should start diversifying because you pretty much can't waste minerals when you're 200/200.
18:53, he's maxed, he's at 2-2 and he's finally moving out. This is when you HAVE to hit him with the recall (and ideally have 5 more arbiters behind to hold up his counter). Yeah, he had a lot of turrets. Suicide a corsair or send 2 arbiters. Also there were routes in if you use an ob to scout them out. You cannot fight that army in the open ground. You especially cannot fight it without storm and with only 3 arbiters. Not really sure what you were thinking tbh but Protoss can only beat a maxed upgraded terran army with magic and you didn't have it. Failing that you avoid the terran and run away and try and counter, and you didn't do that either.
You did a nice job vs it anyway but you need to stasis further back. Against an army that size you're not going to be able to roll it up, the best you can hope for is to give them a bloody nose. Stasis half a screen back from the front and then kill everything in front of that stasis. Anything behind that you're not going after, you just wanna kill the front stuff. Stasising at the front and then trying to kill the units in the middle creates walls for your units to get through and means there is no natural point for you to disengage. After you disengage he just moves forwards up to the stasis and he's exactly where he was when it wears off.
Maynard all your probes to 9. If you're desperately trying to hold him up and buy time, which you were, then use the time. You were suicidng arbiters and dragoons to keep him from taking that part of the map but you knew he would inevitably. Dry it up before he gets there or your sacrifices are wasted.
MAKE MORE STARGATES. You're sitting there on 200/200 with 10k minerals and he's sitting there on 200/200 with 600 minerals and you can't do anything because you can't break his army. Go round it. You're a mile ahead, you can afford to send 10 arbiters and recall everything you have, probes and all, into his main then rebuild it all if you lose them. The single decisive factor that lost you this game was the lack of arbiters.
Once he took the bottom left it was a done deal if he could hold it. All game your only advantage was that you could replace your army if you lose it whereas he couldn't. The bottom left changed that and it was over.
you are a good teacher! whats your rank?
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United States41645 Posts
On August 10 2009 08:32 LuisMl8 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 07:28 Kwark wrote:
Firstly, I know you're better than me so please don't take offence to my critique. I do it with respect.
You can't afford to send your scout probe on 8 and then lose it. All you really need to know is how many scvs on gas for how long, you can get away with a later scout and still check that. For stuff like rax flashing the first dragoon can check. Your late range upgrade I'm assuming was just to mindfuck with him as well as your hidden pylon but I don't get the transition. You mindfuck him into thinking proxy robo rush or proxy dark rush and then go 2 gateways and a robo. He's most likely going to be going ultrasafe many turret FE against the build you're representing and instead of rushing your own expansion you opt for an opening which is really hard to pressure him with on Destination (bridges vs tanks are -_-). I don't disagree with mindfucking but if you mindfuck them into playing scared and defensive then your follow up should be to expand.
Once you have 2 dragoons put one on each bridge. Your mindfuck worked and he wasted a load of time scouting around the map for the proxies before checking to see if you'd expanded. He shouldn't have been able to see, it doesn't cost you anything to at the nat wall early game, especially with well placed pylons to scout drops. By letting him see you not only didn't have some proxy thing going on but also hadn't expanded you let him narrow you down to about 2 builds. Dark drop rush and some kind of mass goon attack on his natural. One of them is easy to block if you know it's coming, the other is lolDestination EZ. I just don't see any kind of 2 fac here because he shouldn't be using that against what you're representing.
At 7:30 you're already considerably behind. 2 well placed tanks have neutered your 7 dragoon aggression and he's been on 2 base for some time while you're still on 1 with a second coming. Your reaver attack wasn't bad but it didn't work with your army or do enough damage. Remember you've still got those useless dragoons sitting there. Your reaver micro is good enough to deal with the tanks holding the high ground and let your dragoons attack/move/attack micro their way into the nat. It's really difficult for a terran to redeploy his tanks from the back of his base to the ramp to hold that off with an active reaver and shuttle because you can get so many free tank kills as they attempt to move into position. That attack would have been the only working transition from your opening and you didn't use it. Your build was disjointed and didn't go anywhere.
You macroed up well, sufficiently to stop him attempting to tornado up to your third although 1 stargate arbiters isn't enough off 3 gas if you're not going for ht as well. Even worse that you stayed on 1 stargate after taking your 4th gas, arbiters are cheap but have a considerable build time, you need to make more stargates.
Whenever you check to see if they've taken 7 and 8 you should always go behind the nat and storm. It's just free kills for Protoss. I get that storm wasn't a part of your build but when you're nearing being maxed and have a load of money you should start diversifying because you pretty much can't waste minerals when you're 200/200.
18:53, he's maxed, he's at 2-2 and he's finally moving out. This is when you HAVE to hit him with the recall (and ideally have 5 more arbiters behind to hold up his counter). Yeah, he had a lot of turrets. Suicide a corsair or send 2 arbiters. Also there were routes in if you use an ob to scout them out. You cannot fight that army in the open ground. You especially cannot fight it without storm and with only 3 arbiters. Not really sure what you were thinking tbh but Protoss can only beat a maxed upgraded terran army with magic and you didn't have it. Failing that you avoid the terran and run away and try and counter, and you didn't do that either.
You did a nice job vs it anyway but you need to stasis further back. Against an army that size you're not going to be able to roll it up, the best you can hope for is to give them a bloody nose. Stasis half a screen back from the front and then kill everything in front of that stasis. Anything behind that you're not going after, you just wanna kill the front stuff. Stasising at the front and then trying to kill the units in the middle creates walls for your units to get through and means there is no natural point for you to disengage. After you disengage he just moves forwards up to the stasis and he's exactly where he was when it wears off.
Maynard all your probes to 9. If you're desperately trying to hold him up and buy time, which you were, then use the time. You were suicidng arbiters and dragoons to keep him from taking that part of the map but you knew he would inevitably. Dry it up before he gets there or your sacrifices are wasted.
MAKE MORE STARGATES. You're sitting there on 200/200 with 10k minerals and he's sitting there on 200/200 with 600 minerals and you can't do anything because you can't break his army. Go round it. You're a mile ahead, you can afford to send 10 arbiters and recall everything you have, probes and all, into his main then rebuild it all if you lose them. The single decisive factor that lost you this game was the lack of arbiters.
Once he took the bottom left it was a done deal if he could hold it. All game your only advantage was that you could replace your army if you lose it whereas he couldn't. The bottom left changed that and it was over.
you are a good teacher! whats your rank?
Only B so there's a big gap between Shauni and I but our playstyles are sufficiently different (I'd love to be able to macro up like him) that I felt I could contribute something.
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What about a good old fashioned reaver opening? It sounds like your trying to take your third without pressuring and the terran is able to move out freely. A reaver opening would hopefully keep the terran from crossing his bridges early on then you could use that to your advantage and keep him contained. The bridges are a bitch to cross for terran when you have goons + a shuttle reaver combo waiting on the other side.
I'm just basing this off jainfei vs brat_ok from highlander, you can DL the reps in the newspost.
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PvT is like White vs Black chess. you need to control the flow.
Even my noob SC knowledge can tell that you weren't playing with proper attitude for PvT.
It seemed like you played according to what terran wanted.
When he turtles, arent you supposed to strech him with recalls / overexpanding?
Yet you attacked where he was strongest and when it was hopeless to attack.
EDIT:
meh, we don't need to tell you anything.
You're lucky there are people who smash terrans for a living.
seriously, just watch some jangbi vods or any other uber PvTer.
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On August 10 2009 08:53 jimminy_kriket wrote:
What about a good old fashioned reaver opening? It sounds like your trying to take your third without pressuring and the terran is able to move out freely. A reaver opening would hopefully keep the terran from crossing his bridges early on then you could use that to your advantage and keep him contained. The bridges are a bitch to cross for terran when you have goons + a shuttle reaver combo waiting on the other side.
I'm just basing this off jainfei vs brat_ok from highlander, you can DL the reps in the newspost.
I'm not sure if there is any good way of denying a terran his third expo on destination. He can take it from his main without moving out with just 2 fac if he'd like to... And since the high ground from your main is so close to the bridges you can just slowly creep out with siege.
On August 10 2009 08:58 niteReloaded wrote:
PvT is like White vs Black chess. you need to control the flow.
Even my noob SC knowledge can tell that you weren't playing with proper attitude for PvT.
It seemed like you played according to what terran wanted.
When he turtles, arent you supposed to strech him with recalls / overexpanding?
Yet you attacked where he was strongest and when it was hopeless to attack.
EDIT:
meh, we don't need to tell you anything.
You're lucky there are people who smash terrans for a living.
seriously, just watch some jangbi vods or any other uber PvTer.
lol...
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On August 10 2009 09:03 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 08:53 jimminy_kriket wrote:
What about a good old fashioned reaver opening? It sounds like your trying to take your third without pressuring and the terran is able to move out freely. A reaver opening would hopefully keep the terran from crossing his bridges early on then you could use that to your advantage and keep him contained. The bridges are a bitch to cross for terran when you have goons + a shuttle reaver combo waiting on the other side.
I'm just basing this off jainfei vs brat_ok from highlander, you can DL the reps in the newspost. I'm not sure if there is any good way of denying a terran his third expo on destination. He can take it from his main without moving out with just 2 fac if he'd like to... And since the high ground from your main is so close to the bridges you can just slowly creep out with siege. Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 08:58 niteReloaded wrote:
PvT is like White vs Black chess. you need to control the flow.
Even my noob SC knowledge can tell that you weren't playing with proper attitude for PvT.
It seemed like you played according to what terran wanted.
When he turtles, arent you supposed to strech him with recalls / overexpanding?
Yet you attacked where he was strongest and when it was hopeless to attack.
EDIT:
meh, we don't need to tell you anything.
You're lucky there are people who smash terrans for a living.
seriously, just watch some jangbi vods or any other uber PvTer. lol...
does the lol mean my post is humorous or too noob to take seriously? ^^
..
anyway, you speak like terran getting the 3rd is the end.
If fighting the Terran with 3rd expo is so hard, perhaps you should tailor some builds that are designed to not fall into the same story that suits the terran.
Some protosses have successfuly went for earlier recalls(again, I think Jangbi?) specifically on Destination, probably because of the similar problems you are facing.
EDIT:
here, PvTs on Desti:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/188_Destination/games/TvP
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United States41645 Posts
nite, watch the rep. Shauni did the standard PvT thing of mass exping while the Terran camped. His problem was that he mined out the map except for the exps on the T side while the T just kept camping and without attacking and just took all his side.
And yeah, the T can take his 3rd and wall it in so easily with tanks on his cliff. Although if you see when he's trying to take it and put 8 dragoons in the edge of that base they're out of tank range while within range of the cc. He then needs to put tanks on low ground and if your shuttle and reaver are still around you can make that a bitch for him. Reavers have enough range that a tank on the cliff can't cover one sieging below it so he needs to actually push along the ground too to take his 3rd. Eventually he will take it but you can buy a lot of time and make him pay heavily for it.
Also you should start walling one of your bridges with buildings. You can hold 2 fac vults so easily with a few dragoons on the other bridge.
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On August 10 2009 09:11 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 09:03 Shauni wrote:On August 10 2009 08:53 jimminy_kriket wrote:
What about a good old fashioned reaver opening? It sounds like your trying to take your third without pressuring and the terran is able to move out freely. A reaver opening would hopefully keep the terran from crossing his bridges early on then you could use that to your advantage and keep him contained. The bridges are a bitch to cross for terran when you have goons + a shuttle reaver combo waiting on the other side.
I'm just basing this off jainfei vs brat_ok from highlander, you can DL the reps in the newspost. I'm not sure if there is any good way of denying a terran his third expo on destination. He can take it from his main without moving out with just 2 fac if he'd like to... And since the high ground from your main is so close to the bridges you can just slowly creep out with siege. On August 10 2009 08:58 niteReloaded wrote:
PvT is like White vs Black chess. you need to control the flow.
Even my noob SC knowledge can tell that you weren't playing with proper attitude for PvT.
It seemed like you played according to what terran wanted.
When he turtles, arent you supposed to strech him with recalls / overexpanding?
Yet you attacked where he was strongest and when it was hopeless to attack.
EDIT:
meh, we don't need to tell you anything.
You're lucky there are people who smash terrans for a living.
seriously, just watch some jangbi vods or any other uber PvTer. lol... does the lol mean my post is humorous or too noob to take seriously? ^^ .. anyway, you speak like terran getting the 3rd is the end. If fighting the Terran with 3rd expo is so hard, perhaps you should tailor some builds that are designed to not fall into the same story that suits the terran. Some protosses have successfuly went for earlier recalls(again, I think Jangbi?) specifically on Destination, probably because of the similar problems you are facing. EDIT: here, PvTs on Desti: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/188_Destination/games/TvP
I have done a lot of 2 base arb with fast recalls on this map too, but it still loses to this type of terran play most of the time. The terran can leave most of his army in his main to defend against recalls (even while taking his 3rd faster than you) and you have to rely on the terran to EMP badly for that build to work at all. I'm not really sure what type of builds you'd like me to tailor against this kind of play, are you saying that I have to play extremely aggressive 1 base/2 base builds so the game won't get past 20 minutes? I have watched a lot of progames on this map, and the best way I can see to get an advantage in lategame (with my playstyle) is to force him to push at your (extremely early) 3rd while rushing arbiters. But it's very easy to lose to a well controlled 5 fac timing push over the bridge if you're not careful.
I still took my third relatively early this game and his 5 fac push failed completely, so I'd say he was behind. It's just that it is difficult to find any opening in lategame. You said my attacks sucked, and it might be true, but I still believe the game would turn out the same even if I was more passive.
A good game of reference where the protoss actually wins is http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12305_Horang2_vs_Shine/vod
Shine gets a fourth base but Horang2 fights an endless amount of battles to keep Shine from getting his 2 left bases. Pretty similiar to my game in that it didn't contain many recalls, but horang2 used a lot of stasis and storm to fend off Shine even though the push distance was a lot shorter for him than for Horang2's reinforcements. Pretty impressive game actually.
Also, good luck trying gas rush on iccup =P
90% of the terrans leave instantly.
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United States41645 Posts
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United States10774 Posts
ah pvt on destination. ahhhhhhhhhhh
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most pro PvTs on desti involve proxy. for good reason, the terrain is pretty imba in favor of terran. i recommend using proxy robo or proxy dts, that's what bisu does so it's obviously the best way of playing on that map. or 2 base arbiter or maybe 2 base carrier occasionally to spice or up. i remember stork or jangbi (one of them) went 3 base carrier against flash once on desti and won quite handily too
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EPT
