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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 10.4: Live on Feb. 19. 2020
Team Fight Tactics Patch 10.4 Live on Feb. 19, 2020
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Did they just completely nuke Soraka's Q?
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Why do so many of their design decisions consist of bandaids upon bandaids?
Oh no, Sona top appears to be too strong. Okay, well umm, oh! We could make it so she randomly regains mana from using abilities next to allies!
???
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Can anyone explains the Clash tier system to me? Last time I was plat 3 and I was ranked tier 4, now I am gold 3 and tier 3, like what? Also while I was plat 3 tier 4, I had silver and gold friends also tier 4, then I had plat friends tier 3 and 2 and one of them was plat 1-tier 1 and there were some diamond players between tier 1 and 2, so I really cant get it, are the iron and bronze players also tier 4 or they just dont play competitively so no one care or what? How are silvers comparable to plats, not even plat 4. Also do the challenger players also play vs plats and low diamonds coz they are tier 1?
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Yeah, Idk,clash tier doesn't make sense to me either. It is.... "Fair."
Also, has anyone ever really dabbled with Ornn jungle?
I was kind of trolling around with some IRL friends in normals, and I think Ornn is actually super legit. Nice clearspeed for a tank and its healthy (I'd call it on par with Zac and Sejuani), Brittle proc percent damage and W percent damage are actually busted for skirmishing over crab and dueling. He takes crab super fast. With ult, percent damage and Ornn items (average 1500 gold of stats per upgrade, with the best items getting like 1900 gold! at level 14 hes giving his team 6k gold for free) he's useful even when he is not popping off, and IMO the most OP part is that you just straight dont have to base with passive, which is like a disgusting time saver. Instead of 0.5s cast, 8s channel, and 15s walking you get items in 4s.
Does this actually work against real opponents?
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- Sona change is so random, I really don't know...
- Raka change is... interesting, wonder if it will work out. I actually think this will bring back tank Soraka, because if you manage to hit a Q, all of a sudden your heals cost 0 health, like what???
- Riot once again refuses to touch Senna and Aphelios numbers, instead going to for micro nerfs which are not the problem
- Garen doesn't need to be even tankier, have you ever seen him on ARAM? He can tank 5 people with BC and Steraks alone, it's the rest of his kit that sucks.
- Gnar buff is actually secret Sylas buff
- Udyr buff is almost as stupid as the champ itself
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I don't really know if those Soraka nerfs will kill Raka top, it'll just mean she won't "win" most lanes, unless I really underestimate those Q changes. Sona top is probably killed though.
Also I understand their logic for the jungle changes, but why are we encouraging garbage jungle champions to be junglers? Outside of Talon and MAYBE Darius with Predator, do we really want any of those champions jungling? Ehh after looking at the list again I guess its just Zed/Garen/Gnar I'm talking about, the rest could be okay
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I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess.
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Zed/Talon really want to roam, so I don't really like them in the jungle. Besides, the fact that most of the champions listed in the patch notes are quite strong but have weaknesses in lane, just looks like a stupid way to create diversity. I don't really expect them to become meta, unless people realize the champ is broken, and it doesn't answer the Lee Sin/Elise problem.
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I cant see buffing Talon for jungling end well. He's either going to be the most oppressive jungler since forever or he's not going to be able to jungle and essentially the "buff" is just a waste of time for the devs.
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Jungle Zed I've done way back when. It's fun and trolly, but not good. He is a very odd pick.
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is the patch on? I really cant understand, its like on the client but not in the game?
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On February 20 2020 03:40 M2 wrote:
is the patch on? I really cant understand, its like on the client but not in the game?
It goes live tomorrow.
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On February 19 2020 21:33 iCanada wrote:
I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess.
But what's the point of teaching Jungle to new players with champions that are garbage junglers? I don't mean clearing wise which numbers buffs do, but actually having a kit conducive to jungling. If these players are losing because they don't know jungle, then when they "learn" jungle they're playing champions that don't have great gank assist anyway they'll still lose.
I respect their desire to solve the problem, I just don't know if making random champions get damage to monsters buffs is what does it
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On February 20 2020 07:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2020 21:33 iCanada wrote:
I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess. But what's the point of teaching Jungle to new players with champions that are garbage junglers? I don't mean clearing wise which numbers buffs do, but actually having a kit conducive to jungling. If these players are losing because they don't know jungle, then when they "learn" jungle they're playing champions that don't have great gank assist anyway they'll still lose. I respect their desire to solve the problem, I just don't know if making random champions get damage to monsters buffs is what does it
My read on this move is that these champions are desired, low elo kids want to play them, but at the same time they have so many hard counters who kills the joy of playing them, so the ones who feel that pain may go in jungle and avoid dealing with vayne top or other bullshit like this. I cant explain mordekaiser in the group though, perhaps he got there being similar to darius Also if they manage to move these champions in the forest then the champions who are hard countered by them will also have better times top/mid
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Generally speaking I agree that having players introduced on Champions that don't suit the role is less than ideal, but I don't think it's a terrible idea. I don't think putting desirable Champions with bag matchups on the jungle is that fix though; as miserable as playing say Garen into say Quinn or Teemo top for bronze level players, I don't think even that compares to a jungler whose having a bad game, although granted low level junglers won't punish you near as hard.
Idk, I don't think anyone starts playing ranked with their first champion main anyway, although I could be wrong. Getting a summoner level 10 newbie to pay Garen jungle isn't the worst thing in the world. When I started I played nunu jungle, and by the time I actually was playing ranked Nunu was the last champion I wanted to jungle, lol.
I think the biggest hurdle with the jungle is just the shear burden of knowledge needed to be effective. You need a working understanding of how to lane as a prerequisite. You need to understand the chinsy ham fisted smite and jungle item rules. Then by its very nature, the PvE is very optimizable and I think a lot of players try the jungle out and just can't clear properly and feel completely and utterly useless; this is less of a huge deal if your teammates leash for you, but your newbie teammates don't understand leashing, lol. The Champions are by and large different from the normal champ pool. You need to have some basis for map awareness. You need to understand 1v1 fighting. You need to understand how to skirmish. You need to understand vision. You need a basis for three lanes worth of matchups in addition to any jungle matchups you're playing. Your to do list isn't straight forward; you more or less need a plan and a set of guidelines and time efficacy to even keep up with the pace of the game even in low levels, where you have minion XP basically force fed to you even if you don't even know what CS means. You need to understand all the objectives in the game. And that isn't the "things you need to know to be a good jungler" list, that's the "bare minimum things you need to know to not unintentionally run it down in a semi competitive matchmaking game" list.
I think filling say a Garen in the role for new new junglers, while not close to a complete fix, is a good start as you're basically getting rid of the need to learn to fight monsters (lol press E) and the need to learn a new champion. That cuts that list down substantially, imo. In the very least, it lets you troll around in low level games and keep up in experience, if not have more gold as low level players aren't exactly CS gods. And that is a pretty sweet start compared to where we're at now. Even Amumu has weird toggles, Monster interactions, and requires blue to even clear nicely. If they have a noob jungler that just clears by pressing E that's a big boon, imo. Warwick and Nunu were those Champions at one point, but they aren't really any more as they both have a lot of bells and whistles in their kits Street the reworks. Like Warwick you have a toggle on E and Q, and then Wactive is probably your best spell and of you're not already a proficient LoL player you'll never use it right to gank, although W passive is I've of the best newbie jungler teaching kits in the game; the big "gank this" trail means nothing to a Challenger player as they already know which lanes are trading, but in iron that's almost just ridiculous. All of Nunu's damage is now skillshot based instead of point and click and auto attack steroids. I imagine the instances of new junglers sticking with the role after those two reworks went down quite a bit, despite the kits both being really well done in my opinion.
Case in point about burden of knowledge, the difference in clear between a Shyvana that knows how to properly kite camps and one that doesn't is ludicrous. A good example is something I even see plat players do wrong, take Red / blue buff camps, they have an AS of 0.625 attacks per second, and Shyvana (and all Champions aside from Graves, for that matter) has a base AS that is slightly higher than that (0.658 to be exact, differs on champion). You can abuse this by always attacking three times and moving away; with Shyvana 3 attacks / 0.658 attacks per second works out to 4.6 seconds, but in 4.6 seconds at 0.625 attacks per second the camp can only hit you 2.85 times, or just twice. One your auto attack is reset you can do this again, ensuring you always trade 3 aid for 2 autos with the camp. So instead of trading autos with the camp at 0.658/0.625 (1.053) by standing still and tanking the camp, you're trading autos at 3/2 (1.5), which is an improvement of over 40%! The math on how much HP you save; it takes you 14 autos to kill red buff level 1 with no leash no smite and with E start. If you stand and tank red buff, you're doing 14 autos in 21.3s, in which time red buff is hitting you 13.3 or 13 times for 60 damage (42.8 after mitigation). If you trade 3 for 2, in the first twelve autos you're getting hit 8 times, and the last two you're getting hit one. So instead of 13 autos taken, you're only taking 9, needing you effectively dodge 4*42.8 = 171.2 damage! That's huge! Now also consider that this kiting, while adding time to the total camp kill time (as you're adding 4 additional auto attack timers into your clear, or 6s), you're also able to kite the camp to start the next camp without any walking distance, and receiving an extra 6s of talisman heal, or 36 hp. So in total the difference between clearing the buff well and doing it poorly is no time difference and 207.6 HP. Gromp you can save about 50 HP by kiting out of its leash range when your abilities are on CD, and your second buff im not going to do the math but say you save half the HP of the first buff on this second buff. In three camps clearing correctly gives you an extra 362 HP. That's a ridiculous swing when level 3 Champions only have 700 to 750 HP! And it's not like we're talking about Nidalee here, we're talking about Shyvana, a relatively simple and brain-dead champ with a low learning curve.
Say me and a brand new player are both playing Shyvana and path Buff Gromp Buff (no shyv would do this path and even if they did they likely start Machete, but just for the sake of showing the absurd advantage; Shy likely full clears and tries to cheese a level 4 Drake, but I digress) to fight for top scuttle based off of a divine intervention telling both of us that that is the correct thing to do; I show up 3/4 HP with a smite charge available, a pot ticking and a second one available. Our newbie friend shows up with no pots, no smite, and only 1/2 HP. He's going to get crushed, probably killed, and I'm going to take half his jungle. Then divine intervention tells us to immediately path to the other crab, based on the advantages from before in items, I'm going to take the other crab, and kill him in his other half of the jungle and / or take those camps too, and suddenly I've opened up a 2 to 3 level lead before I've hit level six, and with the removal of catchup XP it's only going to get worse for our newbie Shyvana.
Idk, the old man jungle purist in me doesn't think they should change it, but of course new players don't pick jungle. Picking jungle as a newbie is like a cow walking to the front of the line in a slaughter house. They don't stand a chance.
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I feel like support Soraka is more nerfed than top Soraka. Top soraka dosn't give a fuck about mana as you go 2 mana items to start, like this will make her more fair in lane so it's fine, but now missing a Q as support soraka is going to feel really bad.
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https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blta20a2d5fe9717b4e/5e4dc239a1ec3554ae8c74c2/Full_List_Of_Eternals.pdf
honestly pick a champion you play and ask yourself if they consulted anyone who plays the champion or just mailed it in...
Irelia: Could be a lot better, if Q resets on minions count, that statistic is literally useless. W block damage, is uh, there isn't a good way to do it, like yes I've bragged about getting a 1v2 because I negated most of a Lee sin R>Q Combo damage, but lets be honest 99% of the time this skill is just about getting fast stacks or reducing minion health. R multi hit is kinda whatever
Fizz: E dodge is ok, probably on the better end tbh. I don't understand the ulti one? does it mean if they walk into it after you miss? I had predicted before reading they would have max size ults and I'm just thankful it's not that. Damage to champions with empowered W autos is kinda who gives a shit territory but I don't think the game can track flash E splash which would be the only really interesting one I could think of
Fiora: Vitals hit and full grand challenges are cool, convert W damage mitigated to champions stunned with W tho imo.
Nunu: Swap W and R achivements (kills set up by W, champs hit by full charge ult) imo and it would be good
Ivern: No shield damage blocked???????????? people somehow care about fiora w and irelia w but not ivern shield ok dude.
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Graves has "shells reloaded"?! Who would want to brag about that? Lol.
If they were going to mail it in, they could have atleast found something esoteric enough to sound like something brag worthy. Idk, like seconds spent with full grit stacks near an enemy or something.
"Number of times you used your auto attack reset" has got to be the lamest stat I can imagine... Likely hundreds every game just on jungle camps. It sounds more like something your team would poke fun at to prove how hardstuck you are than something any one would possibly want to brag about. "You're so hardstuck that you've reloaded more shells then the average zombie apocalypse prepper has in their lifetime, and you're still plat."
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I'm also kinda sad they didn't cash in on the 10 years of community lore, like giving Nunu "empire" for ulti achivement or not using Insec for Lee Sin. Like sure M5 is kinda a deep reference at this point but isn't something like paid stat tracking aimed at super fans?
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EPT
