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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 10.4: Live on Feb. 19. 2020
Team Fight Tactics Patch 10.4 Live on Feb. 19, 2020
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Did they just completely nuke Soraka's Q?
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Why do so many of their design decisions consist of bandaids upon bandaids?
Oh no, Sona top appears to be too strong. Okay, well umm, oh! We could make it so she randomly regains mana from using abilities next to allies!
???
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Can anyone explains the Clash tier system to me? Last time I was plat 3 and I was ranked tier 4, now I am gold 3 and tier 3, like what? Also while I was plat 3 tier 4, I had silver and gold friends also tier 4, then I had plat friends tier 3 and 2 and one of them was plat 1-tier 1 and there were some diamond players between tier 1 and 2, so I really cant get it, are the iron and bronze players also tier 4 or they just dont play competitively so no one care or what? How are silvers comparable to plats, not even plat 4. Also do the challenger players also play vs plats and low diamonds coz they are tier 1?
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Yeah, Idk,clash tier doesn't make sense to me either. It is.... "Fair."
Also, has anyone ever really dabbled with Ornn jungle?
I was kind of trolling around with some IRL friends in normals, and I think Ornn is actually super legit. Nice clearspeed for a tank and its healthy (I'd call it on par with Zac and Sejuani), Brittle proc percent damage and W percent damage are actually busted for skirmishing over crab and dueling. He takes crab super fast. With ult, percent damage and Ornn items (average 1500 gold of stats per upgrade, with the best items getting like 1900 gold! at level 14 hes giving his team 6k gold for free) he's useful even when he is not popping off, and IMO the most OP part is that you just straight dont have to base with passive, which is like a disgusting time saver. Instead of 0.5s cast, 8s channel, and 15s walking you get items in 4s.
Does this actually work against real opponents?
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- Sona change is so random, I really don't know...
- Raka change is... interesting, wonder if it will work out. I actually think this will bring back tank Soraka, because if you manage to hit a Q, all of a sudden your heals cost 0 health, like what???
- Riot once again refuses to touch Senna and Aphelios numbers, instead going to for micro nerfs which are not the problem
- Garen doesn't need to be even tankier, have you ever seen him on ARAM? He can tank 5 people with BC and Steraks alone, it's the rest of his kit that sucks.
- Gnar buff is actually secret Sylas buff
- Udyr buff is almost as stupid as the champ itself
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I don't really know if those Soraka nerfs will kill Raka top, it'll just mean she won't "win" most lanes, unless I really underestimate those Q changes. Sona top is probably killed though.
Also I understand their logic for the jungle changes, but why are we encouraging garbage jungle champions to be junglers? Outside of Talon and MAYBE Darius with Predator, do we really want any of those champions jungling? Ehh after looking at the list again I guess its just Zed/Garen/Gnar I'm talking about, the rest could be okay
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I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess.
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Zed/Talon really want to roam, so I don't really like them in the jungle. Besides, the fact that most of the champions listed in the patch notes are quite strong but have weaknesses in lane, just looks like a stupid way to create diversity. I don't really expect them to become meta, unless people realize the champ is broken, and it doesn't answer the Lee Sin/Elise problem.
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I cant see buffing Talon for jungling end well. He's either going to be the most oppressive jungler since forever or he's not going to be able to jungle and essentially the "buff" is just a waste of time for the devs.
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Jungle Zed I've done way back when. It's fun and trolly, but not good. He is a very odd pick.
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is the patch on? I really cant understand, its like on the client but not in the game?
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On February 20 2020 03:40 M2 wrote:
is the patch on? I really cant understand, its like on the client but not in the game?
It goes live tomorrow.
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On February 19 2020 21:33 iCanada wrote:
I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess.
But what's the point of teaching Jungle to new players with champions that are garbage junglers? I don't mean clearing wise which numbers buffs do, but actually having a kit conducive to jungling. If these players are losing because they don't know jungle, then when they "learn" jungle they're playing champions that don't have great gank assist anyway they'll still lose.
I respect their desire to solve the problem, I just don't know if making random champions get damage to monsters buffs is what does it
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On February 20 2020 07:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2020 21:33 iCanada wrote:
I think the random champion jungle buffs are mostly pointed towards teaching Jungle to new players because new players only pick up Jungle at a rate of 3 to 5% IIRC. I think they just picked champions that are popular with newer players.
But really, I think they should be introducing more to teach players about the jungle. There is just so much to know and people feel largely intimidated by the jungle as such due to the high learning curve. Feels pretty band-aid-y to me, personally. They ought to have a good jungle tutorial or like WoW style trials or something. Idk, that would take effort I guess. But what's the point of teaching Jungle to new players with champions that are garbage junglers? I don't mean clearing wise which numbers buffs do, but actually having a kit conducive to jungling. If these players are losing because they don't know jungle, then when they "learn" jungle they're playing champions that don't have great gank assist anyway they'll still lose. I respect their desire to solve the problem, I just don't know if making random champions get damage to monsters buffs is what does it
My read on this move is that these champions are desired, low elo kids want to play them, but at the same time they have so many hard counters who kills the joy of playing them, so the ones who feel that pain may go in jungle and avoid dealing with vayne top or other bullshit like this. I cant explain mordekaiser in the group though, perhaps he got there being similar to darius Also if they manage to move these champions in the forest then the champions who are hard countered by them will also have better times top/mid
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Generally speaking I agree that having players introduced on Champions that don't suit the role is less than ideal, but I don't think it's a terrible idea. I don't think putting desirable Champions with bag matchups on the jungle is that fix though; as miserable as playing say Garen into say Quinn or Teemo top for bronze level players, I don't think even that compares to a jungler whose having a bad game, although granted low level junglers won't punish you near as hard.
Idk, I don't think anyone starts playing ranked with their first champion main anyway, although I could be wrong. Getting a summoner level 10 newbie to pay Garen jungle isn't the worst thing in the world. When I started I played nunu jungle, and by the time I actually was playing ranked Nunu was the last champion I wanted to jungle, lol.
I think the biggest hurdle with the jungle is just the shear burden of knowledge needed to be effective. You need a working understanding of how to lane as a prerequisite. You need to understand the chinsy ham fisted smite and jungle item rules. Then by its very nature, the PvE is very optimizable and I think a lot of players try the jungle out and just can't clear properly and feel completely and utterly useless; this is less of a huge deal if your teammates leash for you, but your newbie teammates don't understand leashing, lol. The Champions are by and large different from the normal champ pool. You need to have some basis for map awareness. You need to understand 1v1 fighting. You need to understand how to skirmish. You need to understand vision. You need a basis for three lanes worth of matchups in addition to any jungle matchups you're playing. Your to do list isn't straight forward; you more or less need a plan and a set of guidelines and time efficacy to even keep up with the pace of the game even in low levels, where you have minion XP basically force fed to you even if you don't even know what CS means. You need to understand all the objectives in the game. And that isn't the "things you need to know to be a good jungler" list, that's the "bare minimum things you need to know to not unintentionally run it down in a semi competitive matchmaking game" list.
I think filling say a Garen in the role for new new junglers, while not close to a complete fix, is a good start as you're basically getting rid of the need to learn to fight monsters (lol press E) and the need to learn a new champion. That cuts that list down substantially, imo. In the very least, it lets you troll around in low level games and keep up in experience, if not have more gold as low level players aren't exactly CS gods. And that is a pretty sweet start compared to where we're at now. Even Amumu has weird toggles, Monster interactions, and requires blue to even clear nicely. If they have a noob jungler that just clears by pressing E that's a big boon, imo. Warwick and Nunu were those Champions at one point, but they aren't really any more as they both have a lot of bells and whistles in their kits Street the reworks. Like Warwick you have a toggle on E and Q, and then Wactive is probably your best spell and of you're not already a proficient LoL player you'll never use it right to gank, although W passive is I've of the best newbie jungler teaching kits in the game; the big "gank this" trail means nothing to a Challenger player as they already know which lanes are trading, but in iron that's almost just ridiculous. All of Nunu's damage is now skillshot based instead of point and click and auto attack steroids. I imagine the instances of new junglers sticking with the role after those two reworks went down quite a bit, despite the kits both being really well done in my opinion.
Case in point about burden of knowledge, the difference in clear between a Shyvana that knows how to properly kite camps and one that doesn't is ludicrous. A good example is something I even see plat players do wrong, take Red / blue buff camps, they have an AS of 0.625 attacks per second, and Shyvana (and all Champions aside from Graves, for that matter) has a base AS that is slightly higher than that (0.658 to be exact, differs on champion). You can abuse this by always attacking three times and moving away; with Shyvana 3 attacks / 0.658 attacks per second works out to 4.6 seconds, but in 4.6 seconds at 0.625 attacks per second the camp can only hit you 2.85 times, or just twice. One your auto attack is reset you can do this again, ensuring you always trade 3 aid for 2 autos with the camp. So instead of trading autos with the camp at 0.658/0.625 (1.053) by standing still and tanking the camp, you're trading autos at 3/2 (1.5), which is an improvement of over 40%! The math on how much HP you save; it takes you 14 autos to kill red buff level 1 with no leash no smite and with E start. If you stand and tank red buff, you're doing 14 autos in 21.3s, in which time red buff is hitting you 13.3 or 13 times for 60 damage (42.8 after mitigation). If you trade 3 for 2, in the first twelve autos you're getting hit 8 times, and the last two you're getting hit one. So instead of 13 autos taken, you're only taking 9, needing you effectively dodge 4*42.8 = 171.2 damage! That's huge! Now also consider that this kiting, while adding time to the total camp kill time (as you're adding 4 additional auto attack timers into your clear, or 6s), you're also able to kite the camp to start the next camp without any walking distance, and receiving an extra 6s of talisman heal, or 36 hp. So in total the difference between clearing the buff well and doing it poorly is no time difference and 207.6 HP. Gromp you can save about 50 HP by kiting out of its leash range when your abilities are on CD, and your second buff im not going to do the math but say you save half the HP of the first buff on this second buff. In three camps clearing correctly gives you an extra 362 HP. That's a ridiculous swing when level 3 Champions only have 700 to 750 HP! And it's not like we're talking about Nidalee here, we're talking about Shyvana, a relatively simple and brain-dead champ with a low learning curve.
Say me and a brand new player are both playing Shyvana and path Buff Gromp Buff (no shyv would do this path and even if they did they likely start Machete, but just for the sake of showing the absurd advantage; Shy likely full clears and tries to cheese a level 4 Drake, but I digress) to fight for top scuttle based off of a divine intervention telling both of us that that is the correct thing to do; I show up 3/4 HP with a smite charge available, a pot ticking and a second one available. Our newbie friend shows up with no pots, no smite, and only 1/2 HP. He's going to get crushed, probably killed, and I'm going to take half his jungle. Then divine intervention tells us to immediately path to the other crab, based on the advantages from before in items, I'm going to take the other crab, and kill him in his other half of the jungle and / or take those camps too, and suddenly I've opened up a 2 to 3 level lead before I've hit level six, and with the removal of catchup XP it's only going to get worse for our newbie Shyvana.
Idk, the old man jungle purist in me doesn't think they should change it, but of course new players don't pick jungle. Picking jungle as a newbie is like a cow walking to the front of the line in a slaughter house. They don't stand a chance.
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I feel like support Soraka is more nerfed than top Soraka. Top soraka dosn't give a fuck about mana as you go 2 mana items to start, like this will make her more fair in lane so it's fine, but now missing a Q as support soraka is going to feel really bad.
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https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blta20a2d5fe9717b4e/5e4dc239a1ec3554ae8c74c2/Full_List_Of_Eternals.pdf
honestly pick a champion you play and ask yourself if they consulted anyone who plays the champion or just mailed it in...
Irelia: Could be a lot better, if Q resets on minions count, that statistic is literally useless. W block damage, is uh, there isn't a good way to do it, like yes I've bragged about getting a 1v2 because I negated most of a Lee sin R>Q Combo damage, but lets be honest 99% of the time this skill is just about getting fast stacks or reducing minion health. R multi hit is kinda whatever
Fizz: E dodge is ok, probably on the better end tbh. I don't understand the ulti one? does it mean if they walk into it after you miss? I had predicted before reading they would have max size ults and I'm just thankful it's not that. Damage to champions with empowered W autos is kinda who gives a shit territory but I don't think the game can track flash E splash which would be the only really interesting one I could think of
Fiora: Vitals hit and full grand challenges are cool, convert W damage mitigated to champions stunned with W tho imo.
Nunu: Swap W and R achivements (kills set up by W, champs hit by full charge ult) imo and it would be good
Ivern: No shield damage blocked???????????? people somehow care about fiora w and irelia w but not ivern shield ok dude.
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Graves has "shells reloaded"?! Who would want to brag about that? Lol.
If they were going to mail it in, they could have atleast found something esoteric enough to sound like something brag worthy. Idk, like seconds spent with full grit stacks near an enemy or something.
"Number of times you used your auto attack reset" has got to be the lamest stat I can imagine... Likely hundreds every game just on jungle camps. It sounds more like something your team would poke fun at to prove how hardstuck you are than something any one would possibly want to brag about. "You're so hardstuck that you've reloaded more shells then the average zombie apocalypse prepper has in their lifetime, and you're still plat."
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I'm also kinda sad they didn't cash in on the 10 years of community lore, like giving Nunu "empire" for ulti achivement or not using Insec for Lee Sin. Like sure M5 is kinda a deep reference at this point but isn't something like paid stat tracking aimed at super fans?
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they should just dumpster the entire jungle "role" and go dota style.
use a designated jungler out of a handful of champs if you want or just to a 2nd support and let the jungle just be extra farm and xp for laners. in the pro scene thats practically what the jg is after the mid game anyway.
no need to hassle with balancing the jg role cause riot sucks at is anyway and it probably makes the game easier to play for noobs who like icanada said, dont have the knowledge to play a full time jg role
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On February 20 2020 22:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
they should just dumpster the entire jungle "role" and go dota style.
use a designated jungler out of a handful of champs if you want or just to a 2nd support and let the jungle just be extra farm and xp for laners. in the pro scene thats practically what the jg is after the mid game anyway.
no need to hassle with balancing the jg role cause riot sucks at is anyway and it probably makes the game easier to play for noobs who like icanada said, dont have the knowledge to play a full time jg role
Yeah I personally dislike and despise the jungle role, its like something from another game that is forcefully integrated in LoL and I'll be happy if they remove it, however, how do you think they are going to fix the issue with top becoming duo support/adc as well which will practically remove some champion classes for good ?
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I think I prefer the game with the jungle included, but that's coming from someone whose been a jungle main for over half a decade. Idk.
I do think before 10.3 honestly, top support would have been better than a jungler in the right comp. Experience was about the same, gold difference was very minor if not in favor of the support item. Only thing is smite is huge and not having the third / fourth member to be at Baron would majorly suck.
That being said, if you had a Juggernaut top with Yuumi or Ivern support, or even Soraka / Sona support with scaling jungler who played funnel style around top (say a Yi, Graves, Rengar, Volibear, Mundo, Kayn, Ekko etc) without a jungle item and then a botlane with an engage support I think it'd be viable even right now with how good support items are. Imagine a funnel style Rango with a support Ivern 2v1 top, lol.
That being said, it would be kind of like picking non-adcs as the bot laner (Yasuo, Vlad, Ziggs, Heimer, Kayle, Cass, etc) before it was popularized in pro and streams. People would assume you were trolling and hard int. Double Bruiser bot lanes always hard wrecked ADC+support lanes bottom unless the ADC support lane could not interested, and honestly until like the top 1% of play they would always int. I couldn't tell you how many times I played 4v5s out in ranked prior to role select for picking a botlane like Pantheon+Leona into some shit like Zyra Ashe and nearly hard carried a game while pooping all over my lane, but my top laner thought I was trolling and left the game before minions spawned. But if you queue bottom today, people are all for that, no one would say a thing.
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On February 20 2020 23:37 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2020 22:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
they should just dumpster the entire jungle "role" and go dota style.
use a designated jungler out of a handful of champs if you want or just to a 2nd support and let the jungle just be extra farm and xp for laners. in the pro scene thats practically what the jg is after the mid game anyway.
no need to hassle with balancing the jg role cause riot sucks at is anyway and it probably makes the game easier to play for noobs who like icanada said, dont have the knowledge to play a full time jg role Yeah I personally dislike and despise the jungle role, its like something from another game that is forcefully integrated in LoL and I'll be happy if they remove it, however, how do you think they are going to fix the issue with top becoming duo support/adc as well which will practically remove some champion classes for good ?
the thing is i dont think top would become another adc/support lane. aside from obvious compositional issues a double adc draft would have, adc/sup lanes arent actually THAT strong. there are plenty of duo comps that include bruisers or tanks that could win the lane. you dont want to have a 2 adc comp but have one of your adcs dumpstered.
also i dont think a removal of jungle automatically means the jungler becomes a top support. depending on how the jungle creeps stats are adjusted, we could see dual roaming supports, we could see a top baby sitting support, a permanent jungler even despite the changes and overall a complete overhaul of how teams distribute farm amongst the team.
the one thing that would be for certain is that lane matchups and compositions would see more variety. some drafts in pro games might be boring because an execution mistake in a draft could lead to even bigger 1 sided losses but id rather that than have 5 games in a row of the same sequence of drafts because the op champs in every role are set and you cant deviate from that
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Jungle is my worst role by a mile, it requires a different point of view of the game from the lanes. You could argue that you don't really understand the game if you don't know timers and jungle paths, but I've always hated how niche it all is.
Don't think duo top will happen either, my guess is that we'd see roaming supports. Bruisers/tanks scale with levels, that is why they want to be a level or more above the ADC, duo bot often beats a bruiser+jungler if they're the same level.
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I think top and jungler would best duo not with equal levels and equal gold. But usually if to and jungle are equal level to the duo bot, the bot lane is fed and/or the jungle and top are uselessly poor.
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Soraka support rocking the 47% winrate so far this patch. Ooof.
Also, Amumu is a positive winrate champion right now in Diamond + games. He is also rocking a 56% winrate in Iron with 27% pickrate. Lol. Only 55.5% with a 8.4% pickrate in bronze though, got to pump those numbers. Never thought I'd see him be a pickable champion at that level.
Edit: they hotpatching some stuff. Nerfing Sona again, buffing Raja, nerfing immolate.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkYetter/status/1230653813905711104
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Holy shit let me get home from work first I didn’t even get to play Poppy yet
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On February 20 2020 22:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
they should just dumpster the entire jungle "role" and go dota style.
use a designated jungler out of a handful of champs if you want or just to a 2nd support and let the jungle just be extra farm and xp for laners. in the pro scene thats practically what the jg is after the mid game anyway.
no need to hassle with balancing the jg role cause riot sucks at is anyway and it probably makes the game easier to play for noobs who like icanada said, dont have the knowledge to play a full time jg role
I think it's too late to scrap the jungle role within League's design space. We already have had patches without junglers - the funnel meta and it was absolutely horrible.
The Rengar/Hydra bug linked later in the tweet is hilarious. :D
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Funnel wasn't a non-jungler meta, it was a special type of jungle meta. Also, I thought it was fun at the pro level, just that soloQ didn't have enought ways to deal with it. Ironically, that is because of the Riot-Enforced 2-1-1-1 meta. It would be easy to flexibly punish funnel with a 1-2-2 comp that pushes mid very hard with something like Ashe Janna, but they ritualistically killed Janna's clear way back when.
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On February 21 2020 14:18 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2020 22:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
they should just dumpster the entire jungle "role" and go dota style.
use a designated jungler out of a handful of champs if you want or just to a 2nd support and let the jungle just be extra farm and xp for laners. in the pro scene thats practically what the jg is after the mid game anyway.
no need to hassle with balancing the jg role cause riot sucks at is anyway and it probably makes the game easier to play for noobs who like icanada said, dont have the knowledge to play a full time jg role I think it's too late to scrap the jungle role within League's design space. We already have had patches without junglers - the funnel meta and it was absolutely horrible. The Rengar/Hydra bug linked later in the tweet is hilarious. :D
I... What?! Jesus.
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Wow, that Rengar bug is super spaghetti.
LoL meta is entirely artificial and depends on the whims of Riot. And the game isn't designed to allow multiple general game plans, there's always one or two very strong comps. That's why we get patches with significant buffs/nerfs/changes every few months, otherwise people would figure out the best drafts and they'd be rotated around forever. Look at LCK right now, everyone's picking Aatrox/Orrn top, and Aphelios/MF bot, with a sprinkle of Morde/Xayah/Ezreal, and Akali is almost always banned despite being nerfed so hard.
And that matters here because when funnel was viable, it was also the only viable jungle strat, at least at the highest level of play. Even if you were ahead, the enemy jungle Karthus/Xayah would outlevel your mid and jungle, and do more damage than both combined. Conventional jungling became less and less viable as people became more comfortable with funneling.
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Speaking of people being bad at basic PvE and having shit Jungle mechanics and understanding... Err I mean the jungle being hard...
I've seen three different Darius Jungle players come out of the Jungle at level 3 and a half to contest crab at half HP, and it's kind of mind blowing to me. I'm the same Elo as all these brain dead monkeys that couldn't spend even 5 minutes in practice tool trying out a clear. Mind blowing.
Then you look at the u.gg's, the op.gg's platinum plus statistics and you see he has a higher winrate taking 3 health pots level 1 instead of refillable pot. The only Champions I can find where pots have a higher winrate than refillable are Qiyana and Nidalee at gold or lower. Suddenly it becomes clear the vast majority of these players don't have anything remotely close to an optimized clear that lets the rundown sustain bully Darius is in lane be a threat to rundown and bully an opposing jungler that is further from a tower then a top laner ever will be. Level 3 should be his time to shine... No jungler can win that 1v1 unless they have a major vision advantage and are able to start the fight for free or there is uneven lane be priority.
Then you see that 45% of these players are taking Predator which isn't even online for these scuttle fights as well. So you have a low health Darius without a combat keystone fighting another jungler with Conqueror, PtA, DH, Electrocute, or Aftershock... Lol. I'm not even sure what the thought behind predator is, that if he zooms into lanes suddenly he'll have good ganks? Nah, Darius is only ever going to get the kind of free kill ganks that you'd expect a Shyvana or a Yi to land. With poor clear optimization and suboptimal runes trying to fix an unfixable weakness suddenly you've turned what should be the locks greatest strength into its greatest weakness. No way low health Darius without a combat keystone can contest a scuttle vs Conqueror Olaf or even something weak early game Aftershock Zac / Amumu. Yet the whole point of the pick is that no jungler without mobility should even be able to walk into that river without inting.
You even have 15% of players building machete on Darius. Lol.
His buff gromp buff clear is quite good if you Q raptors on the way through. He should have full HP, a pot, and a smite charge even starting without a leash because he's literally the best talisman heal abuser in the game. With his passive ticking for 5s it means of you proc passive on a monster you're getting 10s of 6 HP/s heal from talisman. On Raptors, that's 360 HP. Plus if you're actually killing a camp you get 60 damage burn from Talisman and 78 damage from passive... So you can walk away from a camp as long as it's below 200HP and you're not being contested. You should be able to walk out of the jungle level 3 and looking to gank at 230 at full HP, two potions up, and a smite charge. If you didn't get a pull maybe 245 and 80% HP with two pots left. It's not the fastest, Nidalee / Olaf / Karthus etc all do it faster by atleast 15 seconds.
But it is fast and healthy enough that if you predicted the enemy clear you can create a situation where you're creating pressure and priority on the contested side and winning scuttle, then you can reset or pass through gank mid and take the other scuttle.
Instead we have the equivalent of people picking Nidalee and not being able to create an early game pressure head because they can't mechanically do the first clear. Or people picking Qiyana jungle and not being able to get the free firstblood mid because they can't do the first clear. Unlucky.
Then you have 80% of jungle Darius players are opting into Cinderhulk despite Darius having some of the highest AD ratios in the game after the pantheon rework. (0.3 AD x 5 on passive, 1.0 to 1.4 on Q based on level, 0.5 to 0.7 on W based on skill level, 0.75 to 1.5 AD on ult pending number of passive stacks... Or up to 5.1 damage per bonus AD... for reference Zed with a perfect ultimate runs 6.4 ability damage per AD, and Darius has true damage and free 40% armor pen). How you have those ratios and don't buy 60 AD and 10% CDR for 1500 gold, I don't know. Then his most common second item from the Jungle at the moment is Black Cleaver (which does nothing for him offensively as his only offensive item while behind, provides little utility as shred is multiplicative with pen, and is suboptimal defensively, and then his second most common second item is Trinity force, that people are buying on a shoestring jungle budget from an average gold differential at 15 minutes of -350, and a below average gold per minute of 325 through the first 20 minutes of the game. That means dudes be completing Trinity Force, when amounting 3600 gold for boots / Jungle item / pinks, at around the 27 minute mark on average. Rofl.
That's mind boggling to me. Just the entire thing. Looking at these stats makes me feel like I'm a raid leader again. And it hurts my soul. Just stop standing in the fire. -_-
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At the end of the day, 95% of people who play LoL are astonishingly shit at this game, me included. Like unable to consistently perform the basics of the game. Poor csing, poor map awareness, poor positioning, poor damage control (people int in Diamond like monkeys too). I play very little ranked these days, but from looking at my peak rank, watching so many streams and the random teams I've gotten in normal games, it really feels like people only start playing the game as it was intended in mid Diamond. D3 is the top 1% of ranked, let that sink in. People say that LoL is a less complex game than Dota, but LoL is just too big of a game to fully grasp if you're not willing to play it like a job.
Case in point, you shouldn't be surprised that people don't know how to itemize Darius. That would require sitting down and actually thinking about the game.
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It’s a bit off topic but iCanada’s post reminds me of a time raiding Icecrown. I myself was not the raid leader but I was in charge of assignments and callouts for dps in vent. If you don’t recall the precious fight on heroic, Professor putricide would throw flasks of poison on the raid at intervals that could be completely negated by stacking dps and rotating locations. It really wasn’t a difficult fight for that reason but to help learn it I would literally call out move now on vent despite the fact that dbm existed and did the same thing. Then one week at least a month after ICC was on farm I had to fly to New York in the morning so I was playing on my laptop from my parents house so they could drop me off the next day. For this reason I didn’t have my mic turned on, and I proceeded to watch a guild that finished Icecrown top 150 NA wipe to this boss 3 times before I reluctantly turned on my built in mic to do the call outs.
When I hear people call Diamond players bad I always am reminded of this moment
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Idk, I know it's not surprising, I just expect the average player to be sightly more intelligent. Who the hell is scared of a Darius with Cinderhulk, a phage, and a Kindlegem? I can't imagine being less intimidated of a champion than I would be of Darius with 15 AD at 23 minutes. I don't really see why you'd pick that over literally anything else in the game. Talk about a wet noodle with no CC, no tankiness, and no gap closer. Basically at 23 minutes Darius with Cinderhulk and a nearly completed cleaver is a pylon unless you can time the half second windup on your 300 damage ult to last hit something off of your ADC with ER, IE, and PD so you can proc Noxian Might.
Also....
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/AT1WbAOj-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-21
Introducing a new early game homeguards when you respawn after a death
Wat.
On February 22 2020 06:45 Slusher wrote:
It’s a bit off topic but iCanada’s post reminds me of a time raiding Icecrown. I myself was not the raid leader but I was in charge of assignments and callouts for dps in vent. If you don’t recall the precious fight on heroic, Professor putricide would throw flasks of poison on the raid at intervals that could be completely negated by stacking dps and rotating locations. It really wasn’t a difficult fight for that reason but to help learn it I would literally call out move now on vent despite the fact that dbm existed and did the same thing. Then one week at least a month after ICC was on farm I had to fly to New York in the morning so I was playing on my laptop from my parents house so they could drop me off the next day. For this reason I didn’t have my mic turned on, and I proceeded to watch a guild that finished Icecrown top 150 NA wipe to this boss 3 times before I reluctantly turned on my built in mic to do the call outs.
When I hear people call Diamond players bad I always am reminded of this moment
Yeah... I don't even think I was a good WoW player, but I guess when you look at my achievements I'm probably in the top few percentile and always have played with / at that level... but some players inability to just complete basic mechanics tilted the shit out of me. Usually wasn't too bad, I've always played a rogue so I historically was able to pick up a lot of slack mechanics wise.
I'll never forget trying to do Heroic Iskar day 1 of HFC prior to the "Iskar assist" add ons. And after Iskar assist for that matter. Ugh.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2020/02/221-pbe-update-skin-bios-chroma-tweaks.html?m=1
Wtf is that deaths dance change... One stop shop perfect item, I guess.
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Oh shit. If that Death's Dance goes live I might just play again.
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That's just too much though, lol. 15% DR plus Lifesteal, plus damage, plus CDR, plus armor, plus MR?
It's already one of the most gold efficient items in the game and you're trading 700 gold worth of AD for 600 gold in senor, and 540 gold worth of MR? That's 4480 gold in stats for 3500 gold and that's not even considering the burst reduction passive. A solid 128% gold efficient on its own, putting it in the Crucible / Censor / Redemption / Ornn / Jungle tier of gold efficiency.
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Also, DD's damage delay is all post mitigation, so the built in resists make the passive even strong - especially at a 1 item timing.
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I do believe DD damage delay is true damage, so that's not true. It looks to me like Riot is trying to discourage it for ranged AAers, who have been slowly abusing it as an alternative mini PD+BT. Thus turns it into more of a tanky item, which Aatrox is going to build first into every matchup because it gives 30+30 resistances (that's super dumb).
The buff to BotRK is massive, wouldn't be surprised if we suddenly saw Zed build it again. That buff combined with DD and Hydra buffs looks like Riot wants sustain bruisers to be the meta again. Like nobody is going to be able to even stand in a lane with Fiora/Aatrox because they can fully heal off a wave and have so much LS they can outheal the turret damage while being fairly tanky. That could be solved by making the abilities unique, or allowing only one item to be built (like Tear upgrades).
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The item strongest side imo is that its too universal, champions who can build it will want it every game, however, I am not sure that it will make them crazy op or something like that.
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It's not DD alone, they're buffing a bunch of melee LS items. It might not all get through, but it implies Riot is looking to shift the top lane meta. The good news is that Orrn doesn't build this stuff, and I think Sett doesn't really want anything except for DD either, so we might see a bit more variety in the top lane.
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funny how I queue for top/support and never had a single support game this season, unless I was switching for autofilled people. Which is a different question, why I am not assigned one of the roles I consciously selected, but its given to people who dont want to play it
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On February 22 2020 18:03 DarkCore wrote:
I do believe DD damage delay is true damage, so that's not true. It looks to me like Riot is trying to discourage it for ranged AAers, who have been slowly abusing it as an alternative mini PD+BT. Thus turns it into more of a tanky item, which Aatrox is going to build first into every matchup because it gives 30+30 resistances (that's super dumb).
The buff to BotRK is massive, wouldn't be surprised if we suddenly saw Zed build it again. That buff combined with DD and Hydra buffs looks like Riot wants sustain bruisers to be the meta again. Like nobody is going to be able to even stand in a lane with Fiora/Aatrox because they can fully heal off a wave and have so much LS they can outheal the turret damage while being fairly tanky. That could be solved by making the abilities unique, or allowing only one item to be built (like Tear upgrades).
The true damage dot is taken as a % of damage you would have taken normally after Armor/MR is taken into account, so yes, it does.
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Huh, that's true, I never thought of it like that.
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They need to put a negatron in hex/maw or it’s a dead item the second this DD goes live
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My question is why does Riot think Aatrox is interesting? Personally I consider the new iteration trash to watch in pro play and not fun to play as a soloQ player. I'd rather watch Maokai-Malphite 10x than Aatrox-anything once. The only thing remotely interesting about Aatrox was his totally OP trololol ability to walk die in the middle of a fight and then come back, wasting the opponent's everything. A skill fit for DOTA for sure.
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Aatrox was interesting, it's just seeing him played almost every pro game for months has ruined him for you. He's also been reworked a ton and still won't go away, adding more frustration. Him and Akali are two of the most poorly designed champions from a balance perspective to ever join the game, and Riot refuses to nerf them into oblivion, instead they tinker with little parts of their kit while 'but mah core design aspects' are kept unchanged:
- Aatrox big, tanky boi with crazy healing and comes back from the dead (latter is only part that's seen real change)
- Super fast, sneaky ninja that can hide and jumps around to assassinate, also Gunblade must be viable on her
Their kits are not niche, hence whenever they are viable, they will be meta. Same story as Lee Sin, but he has a lot of games where he does poorly, and also doesn't scale well into the late game.
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On February 23 2020 20:29 DarkCore wrote:
Aatrox was interesting, it's just seeing him played almost every pro game for months has ruined him for you. He's also been reworked a ton and still won't go away, adding more frustration. Him and Akali are two of the most poorly designed champions from a balance perspective to ever join the game, and Riot refuses to nerf them into oblivion, instead they tinker with little parts of their kit while 'but mah core design aspects' are kept unchanged:
- Aatrox big, tanky boi with crazy healing and comes back from the dead (latter is only part that's seen real change)
- Super fast, sneaky ninja that can hide and jumps around to assassinate, also Gunblade must be viable on her
Their kits are not niche, hence whenever they are viable, they will be meta. Same story as Lee Sin, but he has a lot of games where he does poorly, and also doesn't scale well into the late game.
Eh, like I said, the only interesting thing about him was his OP revive. His playstyle has always been, "Bronze Riven, but can't be punished."
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What solo laner is closest to old pantheon? Like I'm terms of just raw being able to built most matchups and take over a game through roaming. Qiyana? Taliyah? Talon? Akali? New pantheon?
Ideally I'd like if they could assassinate a carry like old pantheon could. New pantheon can't kill anything with less than two spell rotations regardless of what items he has. New pantheon's ability to feign threat and absorb damage makes him a much stronger champion, obviously, but it comes at a cost.
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Problem with old Panth is you bullied people till you all inned them. I dont think there's a champ that's as succesful at it as him.. man I miss that spear chucking mofo.
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Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking too; you can either get the harassment from old Pantheon (say Teemo, Quinn, Urgot, etc) or get the all in (Darius, Volibear, Fiora, etc) but not both.
Aside from maybe Sett, but that champion is just not balanced. Lol. Maybe Diana?
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On February 26 2020 02:39 iCanada wrote:
What solo laner is closest to old pantheon? Like I'm terms of just raw being able to built most matchups and take over a game through roaming. Qiyana? Taliyah? Talon? Akali? New pantheon?
Ideally I'd like if they could assassinate a carry like old pantheon could. New pantheon can't kill anything with less than two spell rotations regardless of what items he has. New pantheon's ability to feign threat and absorb damage makes him a much stronger champion, obviously, but it comes at a cost.
Talon would be my guess. He want to roam 24/7 and can completely take over the game if he get just a slight lead and has deceptively high kill threat on most squishies from level 2 and onwards. If a decent Talon gets any sort of significant lead nobody on the enemy team is allowed to have fun until Nexus explode.
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my input would be a predator annie
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Yeah, Talon is super oppressive when ahead, good example of a champion for soloQ climbing.
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The Death's Dance changes on the PBE were reverted today. Kind of nice, i wasn't looking forward to seeing 6 of them in every game. lol.
As for laners, I have to sit down and look at a few. I like the idea of Talon. Ryze feels too late game heavy. All worth a go though, I'd say. I also think Sylas might be a good option. That champion when ahead is the dirtiest thing I have ever seen. That healing... Self Raka ult with twice the AP ratio., dafuq.
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Jungle monsters should honestly just disappear in a while if no one kills them, then reappear again after some time, so when the junglers chain gank, the camps will not wait for them to come back. When laners gank , they are punished if they dont manage the waves properly, especially when the gank fails and I dont see why the junglers should not be punished for that if they dont manage camps properly.
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Because it would make jungle paths very predictable, also what about counter jungling.
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On February 28 2020 23:18 DarkCore wrote:
Because it would make jungle paths very predictable, also what about counter jungling.
You are obviously right, its just that this role doesnt have any natural consequences for leaving their lane. Of course the other jungler can take couple of camps, but it wont happen every time and it requires an action from the other side, while every other lane is punished automatically when they leave, regardless if their roam is successful or not, the punishment is always there
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Jungle gives less gold and experience than lane though, right? So if you gank a lot instead of farming, and don't get kills, you will fall behind. Also, you can't say that you'll be punished if you leave lane, but then ignore counter jungling: if you correctly set up the wave, you will lose few creeps during a roam or recall. The enemy has to proactively counter that in the lane, even if most people don't realize it. The same goes for counter jungling, except that people often don't do it or deny camps incorrectly.
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I think junglers inherently lose the most from leaving their lane, the question is whether they get punished for it or not.
In any other lane if you leave, you lose your creeps. In the jungle you lose creeps and your opponent is gaining creeps. Particularly right now, being up 2 camps on the other jungler is more or less a free win. You have a huge XP lead and full vision of what the jungler wants to do from deep warding. Pending on the matchup you should be able to avoid all of his pressure or contest every single thing he tries to do. IWD over said in LCS a single Jungle camp is enough to make the game feel unplayable in LCS, although he's always been a bit dramatic.
I also think that at lower levels lane roams get punished at about the same frequency jungle roams do.
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EPT
