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On August 01 2016 07:14 LetaBot wrote:
If you go 1 rax FE and spot a 4 pool, is it a good idea to place your bunker between your CC and the geyser?
Otherwise how do you determine the location of where to put your bunker?
Assuming your mineral line is on the right side and the gas on top, the ideal choice is probably to build the bunker right above the CC and having your first depot right below the CC. Then almost the entire mineral line is covered and also your supply depot is safe. If you build your Barracks right above the geyser, you don't even have to lift it with some marine micro.
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On August 01 2016 19:06 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 07:14 LetaBot wrote:
If you go 1 rax FE and spot a 4 pool, is it a good idea to place your bunker between your CC and the geyser?
Otherwise how do you determine the location of where to put your bunker? Then almost the entire mineral line is covered
nope, about 2-3 patches will be unavailable to you.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ICH3m3Z.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QvQRbf3.png)
pushing the bunker a bit to the right will cover more area but mess up gas pathing+depot not covered.
pushing it further and your depot is not covered
you can build your depot to the right of the gas instead (and give up that scv "push") but even still 1 mineral patch is completely open.
if you are talking strictly about "best mineral line coverage" then nothing is better than putting the bunker at the bottom
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BaT7N1B.png)
you can put depot at the bottom of bunker (of course you have to know to do that first)
however scv has to go a little longer way around and this does not cover gas
but if zerg does 0 dmg with 4pool, its basically gg for him anyway.
so if letabot is talking about playing against a 4/5pool bot, this position of bunker is the best.
for regular purposes, bunker on top of CC is optimum.
(everytime i answer letabot i will always try to frame the discussion with the strength/capability of the AI in mind. others should do the same)
On August 01 2016 19:06 Cryoc wrote:
If you build your Barracks right above the geyser,
unfortunately most terrans don't build near CC or geyser, for 1v1. ideally to reduce traveling distance to ramp/nat.
its much more common for hunters actually, where rushes are aplenty
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When you go for a FD but you spot protoss going for a 2 gate, how do you change your BO and strategy?
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United States1434 Posts
You just play defensively at first. Y ou mine up your natural while taking your natural command center. Your strategy is game-wide, so it shouldn't be confined to just the early game. You don't really change BO that much, I'd say just play as you normally would. I guess you can't exploit early map control as much. What is your strategy if Protoss were to go a normal 1 gate goon expand build? I can give you more insight if I know that. In Sea's educational broadcast he shows the proper reaction against 2 gate with FD: www.youtube.com. Skip to the 16 minute mark.
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On August 02 2016 22:07 LetaBot wrote:
When you go for a FD but you spot protoss going for a 2 gate, how do you change your BO and strategy?
i think you mean tactical here? the strategy isn't affected that much by it, as pointed out by ty2.
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On August 01 2016 20:57 Probemicro wrote:
(everytime i answer letabot i will always try to frame the discussion with the strength/capability of the AI in mind. others should do the same)
could you elaborate this? im not quite sure what your trying to say with this.
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On August 03 2016 07:33 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 20:57 Probemicro wrote:
(everytime i answer letabot i will always try to frame the discussion with the strength/capability of the AI in mind. others should do the same) could you elaborate this? im not quite sure what your trying to say with this.
Check this out for example:
What is Letabot?
I just want to answer him like a normal guy tho ^^, here goes:
Generally you shift into a defensive mindset, but you really want to know what exactly Protoss is doing with the 2 gates.
Is it all-goons, zealots+goons, all-goons with range, few goons and something else, does he DT, does he get a robo for obs or drops... I'm sure s.o.knows the exactly proper reaction to all those possibilities (I don't).
Generally speaking you want to know if Protoss just wants to pressure you or if he's preparing an attack to end the game.
I try to find that out first. If your scout gets killed try to sneak out another one as you might get soft-contained. In hindsight, there's almost always something that gives away that Protoss is cheesing (lack of goons, goons not rushing right to your natural, etc.).
If it's just pressure on the ground (aka I see the right number of goons) I build a few more marines, push down the ramp and push him back really carefully and make sure I can plant my mines to zone him out of the natural for a while and build my CC. If I can, I send a scout to check for a fast 3rd or his natural. Then siege-mode (asap actually), and don't siege to far forward. If I think he'll charge in, bunker and SCVs ready. If I'm not sure or think I need anti-air/detection: ebay and turrets.
Sometimes the goons are to many too fast to push him back (in case of proxy-gate/s), or I can't plant my mines and have to retreat, then hold ramp at all cost, CC on highground and siege, second factory and ebay.
If I don't see enough goons but cannot scout him, I mine the natural properly and get turrets asap, maybe a bunker.
If you can survive whatever he's doing with minimum losses, and don't miss that he's going for a greedy 3rd base (by skipping production-cycles or delaying tech), you can keep going with whatever your strategy was.
(I don't really know what a bot is capable of, but as I guess it has to follow some kind of prescribed reaction, maybe a delayed CC would be the best allround-reaction, with more than 4 marines, a bunker in the natural for the rines right as the bot does the FD-push, and then siege before CC, then ebay and second factory... dunno)
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On August 03 2016 07:45 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2016 07:33 Bakuryu wrote:On August 01 2016 20:57 Probemicro wrote:
(everytime i answer letabot i will always try to frame the discussion with the strength/capability of the AI in mind. others should do the same) could you elaborate this? im not quite sure what your trying to say with this. Check this out for example: What is Letabot?
T_T how should this help in any way...... its only a replay... not really an explanation
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On August 03 2016 08:02 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2016 07:45 Highgamer wrote:On August 03 2016 07:33 Bakuryu wrote:On August 01 2016 20:57 Probemicro wrote:
(everytime i answer letabot i will always try to frame the discussion with the strength/capability of the AI in mind. others should do the same) could you elaborate this? im not quite sure what your trying to say with this. Check this out for example: What is Letabot? T_T how should this help in any way...... its only a replay... not really an explanation
I thought you might not know that Letabot is programming a bot (called Letabot) and that you could take Probemicro's post for a joke, and didn't expect you wanted an elaboration on the strength/capacity of an AI ^^. I've only seen a few AI-games myself, they have high apm but cannot use it efficiently, they can somewhat perform reactions to things they scout, but cannot metagame basically, or expect the not-scouted... I think...
Maybe Letabot should prepare some kind of standard-message for his posts here ("I'm making a bot, it can do/not do XYZ, please consider this in your answer")
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but what is there to consider, we all do play the same game, no?
why should i give a bot a different (read: very often worse) advice than a human?
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On August 03 2016 08:06 Highgamer wrote:
I thought you might not know that Letabot is programming a bot (called Letabot) and that you could take Probemicro's post for a joke, and didn't expect you wanted an elaboration on the strength/capacity of an AI ^^. I've only seen a few AI-games myself, they have high apm but cannot use it efficiently, they can somewhat perform reactions to things they scout, but cannot metagame basically, or expect the not-scouted... I think...
Maybe Letabot should prepare some kind of standard-message for his posts here ("I'm making a bot, it can do/not do XYZ, please consider this in your answer")
how many years have AI have been developed...5-6 years? yet for all their supposed apm and macro prowess they are still stuck at basically D rank, don't you think thats the actual joke? there are way too many things the AI is not able to do that human players can do easily and intuitively.
basic shit like how to make a wall, how to mineral walk to help defend rushes, making makeshift walls, using workers to deny runbys, knowing when/where to push/siege/unsiege and not be distracted etc.. all the little things even human players take for granted. i understand they represent big technical challenges, but imo these fundamentals should be fixed before you even think about bigger things. but stuff like these cannot be fixed asap, so if you want results for now, short term proposals (which may be weaker than regular strats humans used) might be more optimal.
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As Letabot asked about a tactical (not strategical, as others pointed out) twist you could give to an FD when scouting a 2gate, I assumed that by now a) the bot can somewhat do the FD-push to take the natural and b) the bot actually reacts when the scout gains vision of 2 gates...
I don't know if in bot vs bot games the protoss just rallies all the goons to the natural for a while... but generally speaking, 2 gate means more units, and can mean a strong (cheesy) attack is about to happen. So if one could programm that the bot lets-off the plan of a fast CC and opts for more marines, a bunker, siegemode, turrets and maybe even a second factory before CC, that might be a relatively simple proposal?
I think, when I listened to Tasteless'/Wolf's cast of ASL the other day with one ear, they talked about how that google-AI or what was picking up BW as the next challenge (after Go?)... so sooner or later we should know what a BW-Bot is capable of (if they don't ask Blizzard for strategical/tactical advice...)
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On August 03 2016 16:07 Highgamer wrote:
As Letabot asked about a tactical (not strategical, as others pointed out) twist you could give to an FD when scouting a 2gate, I assumed that by now a) the bot can somewhat do the FD-push to take the natural and b) the bot actually reacts when the scout gains vision of 2 gates...
I don't know if in bot vs bot games the protoss just rallies all the goons to the natural for a while... but generally speaking, 2 gate means more units, and can mean a strong (cheesy) attack is about to happen. So if one could programm that the bot lets-off the plan of a fast CC and opts for more marines, a bunker, siegemode, turrets and maybe even a second factory before CC, that might be a relatively simple proposal?
I think, when I listened to Tasteless'/Wolf's cast of ASL the other day with one ear, they talked about how that google-AI or what was picking up BW as the next challenge (after Go?)... so sooner or later we should know what a BW-Bot is capable of (if they don't ask Blizzard for strategical/tactical advice...)
No, that was StarCraft 2 they wanted to pick up:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4cfhaa/googles_deepmind_team_in_talks_with_blizzard_to/
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My bad, seems they want to keep it simple for now 
(I think the casters said "Starcraft"... I'm not even hating on SC2 really, but I dislike how SC and SC2 are perceived as one game by probably everyone who doesn't play either of them...)
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obvious its gonna be sc2. blizzard think its good marketing for a product line whose intended expiry date is still quite a while away. huge pity since BW has more potential.
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On July 31 2016 23:08 Cryoc wrote:
Strange, do you have a FPVOD of this?
Eon is correct and it's quite easy to reproduce.
Play a game with zerg.
Select your initial 6 lings and attack move on the opponents scouting worker.
Soon enough a few of the lings will stop attacking the target.
Since those zerglings that stopped attacking now are idle, they may target something else.
I do not know why this happens...
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On August 03 2016 09:08 Bakuryu wrote:
but what is there to consider, we all do play the same game, no?
why should i give a bot a different (read: very often worse) advice than a human?
They will rise up and destroy us all if you give them too much knowledge.
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On August 07 2016 15:55 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2016 09:08 Bakuryu wrote:
but what is there to consider, we all do play the same game, no?
why should i give a bot a different (read: very often worse) advice than a human? They will rise up and destroy us all if you give them too much knowledge.
funnily this isn't really a joke reply, its quite true in a sense
one of the things i feel that is holding the AI back is the programmers themselves are poor players with inadequate understanding of competitive play. no offence but i keep seeing letabot asking basic questions of game tactics/strats that any half-decent C rank player will know well. not asking them to hit Olympic, but at least they should have a decent PRACTICAL grasp of knowing what to do in many common ingame situations
even the programmers tuning deep blue (chess)/ deep mind are decent amateurs with some experience. they also hire top players (akin to hiring korean progamers) for advice.
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On August 06 2016 23:42 Atom[Bomb] wrote:Eon is correct and it's quite easy to reproduce. Play a game with zerg. Select your initial 6 lings and attack move on the opponents scouting worker. Soon enough a few of the lings will stop attacking the target. Since those zerglings that stopped attacking now are idle, they may target something else. I do not know why this happens...
Incredibly annoying way to lose track of a scouting scv or probe. It's a very frequent bug.
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Is trying to 1 rax expand vs protoss too ambitious for a newer player ? I try to copy flash but my friend just destroys me. Anyone got some good fpvods or replays of good players doing a FD or something thats a bit easier so I can copy their building placement at the same time as the build. Building placement is still really difficult for me for whatever reason.
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EPT
