EPT[TSL] Opening Broadcast - Page 4
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
Streaming replays just kind of takes away the excitement. Live streams are so cool because it's _live_... even things like player comments, pauses, lags, "ggs" and so on improve this atmosphere. But if you know it's not live it takes this atmosphere away... ever watched a recorded soccer/basketball/baseball/whatever match? That sucks too. :/ And even if you don't release the replays before, some people will know it and spread the results (at least friends of the players). Even if this doesnt happen, YOU know the results and this will shine through in your commentary, believe me. (for example, if a match is tight you will see a player in advantage because you know he will win while otherwise you wouldn't see any advantage for him, this is a subconscious thing, I don't think you can do anything about). Well, to make things shorter: I think you have one guy doing the "camera". Just let observe him the game with no other observers and live stream his screen to your server. And all commentators will watch this secret/non-official/not delayed live stream and comment on the things they see. And the result of THIS will be streamed in a delayed official stream. So only 1 observer in the game itself, which should be fine, and an infinite number of commentators can cast the game. I know this can be done, it's just a question if your tech guy wants to do it (but it should not be too complicated). And to make things better, if a game supports even 2 observers without lag, one of the commentators could join directly. This is useful, for example when your camera guy misses an action or so. And if there are games which doesn't support ANY observers, then stream the replays. But in at least half of the ro16 games it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL. This is my suggestion, thx for reading and think about it. Gogo TSL! | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25954 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25954 Posts
On May 07 2008 23:40 Caladan wrote: Okay, I just registered to make this suggestion: Hi, Tl.net! Streaming replays just kind of takes away the excitement. Live streams are so cool because it's _live_... even things like player comments, pauses, lags, "ggs" and so on improve this atmosphere. But if you know it's not live it takes this atmosphere away... ever watched a recorded soccer/basketball/baseball/whatever match? That sucks too. :/ And even if you don't release the replays before, some people will know it and spread the results (at least friends of the players). Even if this doesnt happen, YOU know the results and this will shine through in your commentary, believe me. (for example, if a match is tight you will see a player in advantage because you know he will win while otherwise you wouldn't see any advantage for him, this is a subconscious thing, I don't think you can do anything about). The players will tell no one the results until the broadcast is over. Well, to make things shorter: I think you have one guy doing the "camera". Just let observe him the game with no other observers and live stream his screen to your server. And all commentators will watch this secret/non-official/not delayed live stream and comment on the things they see. And the result of THIS will be streamed in a delayed official stream. So only 1 observer in the game itself, which should be fine, and an infinite number of commentators can cast the game. I know this can be done, it's just a question if your tech guy wants to do it (but it should not be too complicated). We tried this, it isn't really possible. You need someone encoding and streaming the video to three people, who all must be in perfect sync. If there's any buffering with any of them, the whole thing goes out of sync (and can't be fixed on the fly). You also need a second person streaming and encoding the second "assembled" stream to the server. It's a technical nightmare, but I'm sure R1CH could do it. The big thing this doesn't solve is lag issues. We're going to be on the stream trying #LL, #L2, Hamachi, obs, no obs, etc. trying to solve people's lag issues, and it's impossible to know which ones going to work. You probably don't want to sit on a stream watching all this take place. What happens when the two players can't support an observer? Too bad? There's no solution. You can't stream the replay, because what do you do for two hours while the game is being played? Just shut the stream down and then start it back up? It hardly seems like a solution. Maybe my explanation isn't correct, but R1CH said we shouldn't do it and that's enough for me. And to make things better, if a game supports even 2 observers without lag, one of the commentators could join directly. This is useful, for example when your camera guy misses an action or so. And if there are games which doesn't support ANY observers, then stream the replays. But in at least half of the ro16 games it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL. This is my suggestion, thx for reading and think about it. Gogo TSL! How are we going to stream half live half replays? It's too complicated, what do we do in between? It needs to be one or the other, we can't be switching formats on the fly and make a coherent cast. Streaming replays is the best available option. The double stream possibly could work, if there was more than three days before the cast and R1CH wasn't already setting up nine thousand other things. Again, some people can support a stream with #LL, most people can't. It's great that you've seen many live streams with #LL, I'm telling you I've been in games with these people can't they can't support it. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
In at least half the ro16 it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. ... For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL. You must realize that we tested all this right? We didn't just say "hey, Mondi vs Dreiven probably won't work so we won't do it live." That's ridiculous. 80% of the players can barely play with one obs from a different country on LL. Secondly, I think you vastly underestimate the scheduling/testing/technical side of things. Your "solution" to this problem is basically a scheduling and technical nightmare. We have to get all the casters and all the players and test every means possible, and that's still not a guarantee because plenty of the players' connections are inconsistent. For example, we had several groups in the Ro32 where people lagged randomly for a few hours then stopped again. No amount of pre-testing was going to make it happen. On the technical side, we'd be trying something that we never did before and couldn't test for more than a few days. Add to this complicated issues with our obs and his need to inject video/images/intro etc, and you have a recipe for disaster. Live games would be ambitious to attempt and could be a possibility for future TSLs and possibly even later rounds of this TSL, but for right now it's impossible. Saying things like "Mondi and Dreiven surely can do it live!" or "I've seen so many #LL streams why can't you do it!?!" Is not really helpful, because you haven't tested the players--we have. You haven't tried to get live casting to work without a live studio, scheduling issues, and international laggy connections--we have. If it was feasible on our side to do it "full live" instead of "semi live" we'd have done it that way. Bottom line is, if you're whining about the post-match replay cast right now, you'd be whining way more about the hours of delay and laggy games if we didn't do it this way. Yes, you lose a bit of true "live" excitement, but we believe that's a choice you would make when faced with an unwatchable broadcast filled with technical delays and player lag. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
No need to be offended, ok? I just wanted to make a suggestion, this was no critique. I believe that you've done anything you could. I understand your reasoning, it's ok when the risk of having live problems is too high (and there is a high risk). Would be cool if you could "forbid" players to tell their friends the results until you streamed the games. gl hf and I'm looking forward to the streams! Keep the good work up!  (Btw, just a tech sidenote: I dont think you need a 2nd encoding server, it should be possible to just "copy" the original stream on the server to the 2nd delayed stream and then add the audio-only stream from the casters. The hard thing would be to get these both things synchronized perfectly, with latency, buffers, etc. But, as you said, maybe an option for a second TSL.) | ||
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Chill
Calgary25954 Posts
On May 08 2008 00:27 Caladan wrote: Would be cool if you could "forbid" players to tell their friends the results until you streamed the games. gl hf and I'm looking forward to the streams! Keep the good work up! Anyone leaking results will be immediately removed from the tournament. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
The lag is the only reason we are not casting this. If there wasn't any lag, we would have cast this live, but due to the lag (which is 100% unavoidable, we've even set up proxies to test connections etc), there is no way thatwe can get a smooth broadcast done for you guys, and have a smooth game for the players. The games will still be cast live. They will be cast as the games finish, and they will be the only source of results. No-one (except for the players and their managers) will know the results before you do. That includes those of us organizing the tournament, and even the commentators. We will be streaming this live to you as we receive the games, and if we didn't tell you guys that we were streaming replays, you wouldn't have known the difference :p That said, we hope you all really enjoy the casts. They will be great. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On May 08 2008 00:21 uNiGNoRe wrote: Very sad. I won't be able to dl the VOD's and I wont be able to watch the stream at that time... Apart from that, streaming replays is not worth watching it. Well, assuming you could download the VODs, if you'd rather watch it by yourself a few days later instead of watching right after games are played with a chatroom where everyone is watching it and commenting as well, I suppose that's your personal choice. To those that are suddenly deciding not to watch because "its not worth it" to watch replays that nobody has ever seen and are played right before, I hope you at least give the broadcasts a chance and take a look before just deciding you're not going to check it out at all. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
On May 08 2008 00:27 Caladan wrote: First, I don't "whine". No need to be offended, ok? I just wanted to make a suggestion, this was no critique. I believe that you've done anything you could. No. You basically suggested "you should do it live" and then stated things we've already covered, like "casters will spoil" (they won't, because they don't know the results or how many games there will be). You also said "Mondi and Dreiven should be able to be live" when we tested and they clearly couldn't. Then you said "half the Ro16 games should be able to be live" when we tested and basically all of them can't be. Your post is insinuating that we can do live cast but we're simply not trying hard enough, which is not the case. And I didn't specifically say you were whining. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
In regards to the replay issue, the critics here need to think of a couple points before further judgement. a) We have a sponsor involved and have to make it look good. This is just the start - our first season and its still going to blow your faces off with how good it is. b) While the viewers are very very important, there is 10k on the line. Several matches in the qualifiers were influenced by lag...can you imagine if that happened on air with thousands of people watching? Yeah not going to happen. If you don't like it thats fine, you dont think we'd rather have a live broadcast? Our debate on this has been going for weeks and has gotten very very heated but we are on the same page now - this is the right move to make. | ||
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berated-
United States1134 Posts
Replay, live, even knowing the results ( which they've put more effort into this than to allow for that ) - Stop bitching and be thankful for what you have -_- Better idea - would you people who are complaining like to front the money for 21 plane tickets ( 16 players, 4 casters, 1 ref ) - then we could assure live coverage. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36362 Posts
That said, I strongly believe our first broadcast will really impress you guys and be worth watching together with all of TL.net in chat and participating. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
On May 08 2008 00:38 Hot_Bid wrote: Well, assuming you could download the VODs, if you'd rather watch it by yourself a few days later instead of watching right after games are played with a chatroom where everyone is watching it and commenting as well, I suppose that's your personal choice. To those that are suddenly deciding not to watch because "its not worth it" to watch replays that nobody has ever seen and are played right before, I hope you at least give the broadcasts a chance and take a look before just deciding you're not going to check it out at all. I'm not able to dl them because my ISP fucked up my connection and I got a downstream of 15 kbyte/s maximum. I can't even watch youtube videos right now. So in this situation its most likely that the stream may lag too and this at (i believe) 0:30h when the streaming starts is imho not really worth it. Though I might tune in if the stream is working with my internet problems (ESL-TV stream did) and if the commentators are good enough it might not make a big difference to a real live stream. And I got a question: Will it be possible for us to choose different streaming qualities? I think that would help me and maybe some others, too. | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
1. Players side. People on a bit lower level can't understand how impossible to play even with some lag for high skill players. I can say you honestly - after lagging video streamed Accession and MYM Koth with Notforu i try to avoid any video cast i can, becasue the only absolutely non-lagging cast is CDS)Jump, also once my games vs Mondragon didn't lag... And when you practise hard to make rezult, lossing game cause of video cast... is not what i'm looking for. 2. Spectators side. Game without spectators, just for players is dead. What would be football without fans. Fans like watching live, cause it brings more dramatizm. But look, TSL tries to make good for both sides, noone else tried that before. May be it will work, may be not, but agree, it's just RO16, TSL admins can change system if it won't work. Let's give em chance  From me i can guarantee noone knows my rezults before cast ends... | ||
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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