The first weekend of TSL video broadcasts will be: Saturday, May 10 - 16:30 EST / 22:30 CET Sunday, May 11 - 16:30 EST / 22:30 CET The stream link will be posted closer to the broadcast time. Casters include Artosis, Chill, Manifesto7 and Yannis.
Due to lag and player scheduling issues, games will be played immediately before the broadcast, and the broadcast will show the replays of the games right after the games finish. The casters will not know the results or how many games were played. The players will be forbidden to leak results until the end of broadcast. Thus, while it is not "truly live," it is the first time anyone will have seen the replays of the games. We have exhaustively tested all live broadcast possibilities and this semi-live solution is closest thing to a live experience that we can accomplish while being fair to both the viewers and players.
After the broadcasts are over, we will not be releasing replays but rather VODs of the games. TeamLiquid StarLeague Round of 16 Day 1 Saturday, May 10 - 16:30 EST / 22:30 CET
Tell your parents, tell your friends, tell everyone you know. Get some chips get some drinks and settle in, because the TSL is coming straight to your monitor in all its glory. The broadcast is going to blow you away!
In the meantime, feel free to check out all the TSL related stuff going on right now:
If you are using replays, can you make sure to somehow obscure the green bar at the bottom right of the screen. E.g. what psyonic_reaver has done here . (He has a nice little custom infobar at the top left as well <3)
On May 07 2008 07:35 Elric_ wrote: Woo, can't wait
If you are using replays, can you make sure to somehow obscure the green bar at the bottom right of the screen. E.g. what psyonic_reaver has done here . (He has a nice little custom infobar at the top left as well)
Man, I'm so thankful to all of the TL.net guys and others who made this possible. I'm really keeping track of this and so far, it's just been near perfect. I sure hope you'll continue this tournament for a long time.
I don't think theres a single match I'm not looking forward to, with maybe the exception of White-Ra's boring PvT vs IdrAs progamer TvP. Ra's PvT reps always strike me as boring, but his PvZ is always nice so it balances out :O
On May 07 2008 09:24 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: I don't think theres a single match I'm not looking forward to, with maybe the exception of White-Ra's boring PvT vs IdrAs progamer TvP. Ra's PvT reps always strike me as boring, but his PvZ is always nice so it balances out :O
Wow you must be really hard to please then... BRAT_OK vs Haypro should be good but I think BRAT will win it.
I'm also hope Mondragon vs Dreiven is good and that mondi doesn't win it too easily.
On May 07 2008 11:08 AkzenT wrote: ah man, watching live replays.... thats kinda weak.
we are all dying to hear your brilliant solution on how to have lagfree live games using lan latency plugin, with 2 players +3-4 casters ingame, who are spread all over the world and of which some have anything but a good internet connection.
On May 07 2008 11:08 AkzenT wrote: ah man, watching live replays.... thats kinda weak.
somebody has provided you with a freebee. DON'T COMPLAIN!
what have YOU contributed?
And for your information... NOTHING IS LIVE... for the very reason the mods have explained. Even the "live" football games you watch on TV are not live, but are delayed by half an hour... it's pretty much the same here.
On May 07 2008 12:24 useLess wrote: how are you gonna fill that gap between replays? for example, the first replay just finished but the second game is still going on.
I'll assume that they just talk about the games so far, the games to come and turning points in the game that they just replayed...
On May 07 2008 12:24 useLess wrote: how are you gonna fill that gap between replays? for example, the first replay just finished but the second game is still going on.
On May 07 2008 12:24 useLess wrote: how are you gonna fill that gap between replays? for example, the first replay just finished but the second game is still going on.
We are going to start the games well ahead of time so that doesn't happen, but close enough to the broadcast that it will still feel close enough to be "exclusive."
I'm fine with casting replays.. but cover the replay progress... so we cannot see how long the game will last. Also.. the broadcast is going to start 22:30 PM ... not the games they play, right :o?
So far the whole event was super intense and breathtaking for me. And I really apreciate all the work done, extra features like radio stream, contests, interviews etc.
But I agree with AkzenT here - watching live replays is kinda lame and is taking away a lot of thrill imo. If you guys had technical issues why didn't you cooperate with some more experienced media. I think giga or hstv would be happy to participate in such huge event.
Anyway I hope casters wouldn't know the result before commenting the replays.
Sorry I don't know if this question has ben answered before, couldn't find it. Anyhow, will you only have live broadcast and replays or will you post vods from the TSL r16 on youtube?
On May 07 2008 16:11 Kaoz wrote: So far the whole event was super intense and breathtaking for me. And I really apreciate all the work done, extra features like radio stream, contests, interviews etc.
But I agree with AkzenT here - watching live replays is kinda lame and is taking away a lot of thrill imo. If you guys had technical issues why didn't you cooperate with some more experienced media. I think giga or hstv would be happy to participate in such huge event.
Anyway I hope casters wouldn't know the result before commenting the replays.
Can't you read? The problem is with the players not the streaming server. Even if you get one of the "experienced media" you will still get this problem since the players are spread worlds apart. Im sure if they can get these players and casters in the same room then this won't be a problem.
Well the only solution to be able to comment live in a lag-free environment for the players would be to use a streaming tool like ggclient. This is what they use in warcraft, were there is a lot of international online play: the game is hosted by an observer who runs ggclient, the actions in the game are streamed to the ggclient platform, and then everyone can connect to the server to see the action live. Unfortunately i don't know if starcraft streaming is implemented. It's no big deal anyway, but i really hope that in sc2 they will have a system like this and not force us to use third party client to watch game live.
On May 07 2008 16:11 Kaoz wrote: So far the whole event was super intense and breathtaking for me. And I really apreciate all the work done, extra features like radio stream, contests, interviews etc.
But I agree with AkzenT here - watching live replays is kinda lame and is taking away a lot of thrill imo. If you guys had technical issues why didn't you cooperate with some more experienced media. I think giga or hstv would be happy to participate in such huge event.
Anyway I hope casters wouldn't know the result before commenting the replays.
Can't you read? The problem is with the players not the streaming server. Even if you get one of the "experienced media" you will still get this problem since the players are spread worlds apart. Im sure if they can get these players and casters in the same room then this won't be a problem.
I'm not an expert here but watched tons of international tourneys with random players from around the world without any stream problems. And not only starcraft but CS or BF as well, where you have 10+ players, so I guess so called "experienced media" know how to deal with it.
Not live is very disappointing (most of the games could be casted live without any problems). Make sure people dont see the replay progress bar. And make sure no one knows the result. NOT GG.net or anyone else.
Play with 2 casters (dont know why 4 must be ingame) and set Latency Changer on high (almost no difference to lat changer with low) and it will work. WarNiX casted GSL Mondragon vs Gentleman without lag.
Test it it would work. If not think hard of a way to fix the lag because casting replays is ridiculous.
I think VODs are fine, but I'd REALLY appreciate it if they were hi-def (sort of) VODs. If you could make this work somehow that'd be awesome, because youtube quality sucks.
And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =)
Thanks again guys for all the hard work, really looking forward to it! (esp to high qual vods ;-)
[Q] Are all games played together or each game after the other. Because if they all played together its obvious that the result at least of the last game to broadcast wont be a secret anymore.
On May 07 2008 17:52 Sirakor wrote: And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =)
Thats assuming the caster watched the game earlier which sucks imo. Even knowing the outcome of the game takes out tension from commentary, emotions are slightly faked, theres no suprises, predictions are 100% accurate etc.
Since you decide to stream the replays, at least make it live-ish.
Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game.
I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway.
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game.
I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway.
I'm not an expert here but watched tons of international tourneys with random players from around the world without any stream problems. And not only starcraft but CS or BF as well, where you have 10+ players, so I guess so called "experienced media" know how to deal with it.
The difference is that if one player lags in a CS/BF game that one player will be the only one affected by lag issues. The server will not be affected. The other players won't feel it. The casters won't feel it...
Starcraft is programmed in such a way that players have to be synced at all times (meaning if one person lags, everyone will lag just as much in order to keep the game in sync). This is to prevent any discrepancies in what the players view on the screen. So that a dragoon doesn't die for one player (due to lag), while for a different player it lives... making the game crash.
Counterstrike and BF on the other hand, use a different model where the server approximates players' movements and positions based on the latest available data. If there is a discrepancy, it will be corrected as fresh data is sent to the server. That's why hitboxes exist in Counterstrike, and NOT in Starcraft. And this is why players with 500+ ping seem to be moving like characters out of the movie Jumper (i.e. blinking forward with delays).
In order to keep the game moving smoothly the server will send you details about what location it thinks a certain player model will be moving towards in the next "update interval". Of course, players' actual movements don't fully correspond these "predictions". That's why you can aim straight at someone's head in Counterstrike and still miss the shot due to the hitboxes lagging behind.
Basically you should've ended your post at "I'm not an expert..."
On May 07 2008 17:52 Sirakor wrote: And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =)
Thats assuming the caster watched the game earlier which sucks imo. Even knowing the outcome of the game takes out tension from commentary, emotions are slightly faked, theres no suprises, predictions are 100% accurate etc.
Since you decide to stream the replays, at least make it live-ish.
Agreed. Whoever is commentating/casting on the replay should be watching it for the first time and should not know the outcome.
On May 07 2008 17:52 Sirakor wrote: And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =)
Thats assuming the caster watched the game earlier which sucks imo. Even knowing the outcome of the game takes out tension from commentary, emotions are slightly faked, theres no suprises, predictions are 100% accurate etc.
Since you decide to stream the replays, at least make it live-ish.
Agreed. Whoever is commentating/casting on the replay should be watching it for the first time and should not know the outcome.
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game.
I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway.
Yes, I think this sums it up pretty nicely. If all these points are covered, it will be fucking awesome! I am looking forward to it.
As to all those commenting about the Live Issues, please understand that of all the things we've discussed about the TSL so far, this issue has been the most hotly debated one. In the end, we pretty much all decided that it would be better for the fans to view games that are lagfree, and that are played on lan latency, rather than high latency which is the smoothest we could play it 90% of the time, even with just one obs in it.
There are further issues to contest with, such as games crashing. It's happened more than once during the qualifiers that one of the contestants had a game crash, and the match had to be restarted. This would look dreadful viewed live, and would just spark too much flaming. So in the end, we are still broadcasting live, but just from replays. None of the casters or even admin will know the results, and the games will basically be streamed as we get them, with a minor buffer to ensure that we don't have to wait too long for the next games.
I hope you guys understand that this is not a decision made lightly, but a decision made in the interests of you guys watching it, and the players playing it.
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game.
I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway.
And all three of those criteria are things we're doing... essentially you are getting the games almost immediately after they are played
On May 07 2008 17:39 HanN00b wrote: Not live is very disappointing (most of the games could be casted live without any problems). Make sure people dont see the replay progress bar. And make sure no one knows the result. NOT GG.net or anyone else.
Play with 2 casters (dont know why 4 must be ingame) and set Latency Changer on high (almost no difference to lat changer with low) and it will work. WarNiX casted GSL Mondragon vs Gentleman without lag.
Test it it would work. If not think hard of a way to fix the lag because casting replays is ridiculous.
I assure you, we have exhausted every possible option. The limiting facotr in most cases is geographical distance screwing things up. The sheer number of issues and incidents in the qualifiers gave us a good indication of what to expect in the tournament - and seeing as that was only 1 ref + 2 player (sometimes just the two players) the straight live is impossible if we want to maintain an enjoyable and uninterrupted cast. How disappointing would it be for lag to ruin an epic match and have us fiddle around until its fixed? We are using the method that is guaranteed to give good results to maintain a high end viewing experience. At the end of the day, this isn't ongamenet (yet). They have booths roughly 10m apart - we have players spanning continents - that affects the lag no matter how fast your internet is.
These results won't leak, its nearly impossible for them to leak as they are being played in extremely close proximity to the actual casting - and the players have been warned about any breaches in this. The results stay between the ref of the game, hotbid and the players - no one else on the TSL staff or public gets to know. You can trust tl.net, we obviously want to give the best quality for this and we would not being doing reps without a bloody good reason. The reps should be indistinguishable from the real thing so there will be no quality loss.
Would be nice with a video before the games started where "Artosis, Chill, Manifesto7 and Yannis." talks little about who they think will go to next round and what games the people are most exited about and witch games they are most exited about and so on. That would be awesome
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game.
I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway.
And all three of those criteria are things we're doing... essentially you are getting the games almost immediately after they are played
These results won't leak, its nearly impossible for them to leak as they are being played in extremely close proximity to the actual casting - and the players have been warned about any breaches in this. The results stay between the ref of the game, hotbid and the players - no one else on the TSL staff or public gets to know. You can trust tl.net, we obviously want to give the best quality for this and we would not being doing reps without a bloody good reason. The reps should be indistinguishable from the real thing so there will be no quality loss.
On May 07 2008 17:39 HanN00b wrote: Not live is very disappointing (most of the games could be casted live without any problems). Make sure people dont see the replay progress bar. And make sure no one knows the result. NOT GG.net or anyone else.
Play with 2 casters (dont know why 4 must be ingame) and set Latency Changer on high (almost no difference to lat changer with low) and it will work. WarNiX casted GSL Mondragon vs Gentleman without lag.
Test it it would work. If not think hard of a way to fix the lag because casting replays is ridiculous.
You get how horribly stupid you sound in your understanding of the issue when reciting a german sucessfully casting 2 germans without lag. if people actually get how latency works in bw which was nicely described earlier in this thread they'd get why it has to be done this way. Anyhow this will be a great event, and with the right interface on the stream you won't actually even be able to know it ain't live if not told so.
I think its pretty amazing that they've be able to do this much with what they have, and everyone should stop bitching. They have all bases covered and if they wouldn't have told you, you probably wouldn't have even noticed. Either way you get to see the games full length with no spoilers and live commentary by people who have no idea who wins or what happens, so why are you mad its perfect quality > laggy?
Casting live isn't an option. Several of the players can't even have observers. We tested it. The only way would be to have a laggy game on B.Net latency.
In the end, the fans are as important as the players. Forcing players to play on B.Net latency for the sake of the stream being live isn't an option. Trust me, I fought very hard for the cast to be of the live games, but at this point it just is not possible.
I mean, you can make comments like "it's possible" but it isn't, because we've actually tried it. Casting live with good latency is not consistently possible. If you have suggestions, go for it, but don't cite things that aren't applicable. We had lag issues in many of the second day Ro32 games, and they couldn't be solved on B.Net, Chaos, ICC, Hamachi, or any other client. Yes, I'm sure you've seen live casts before, but were they on #LL? Were they with people from different countries with several observers from different countries as well? Probably not. The issue becomes very difficult when you make it an international one, especially when certain players do not always have reliable connections. There's money and sponsorship involved, so the cast can't fumble around while we solve latency and lag issues.
We've considered several alternatives, from B.Net latency to making the casters cast from the stream. In the end, this is the best solution. I agree that in a perfect world it would be casted live, but you won't know the results, and I guarantee you won't know it's a replay. Plus everyone will be chatting live about the same games you are watching, which is all the fun of watching games live.
Chill said everything perfectly, every single person on the team tried to make it a live broadcast but ultimately we had to make the decision that was best for the viewer and the tournament.
Okay, I just registered to make this suggestion: Hi, Tl.net!
Streaming replays just kind of takes away the excitement. Live streams are so cool because it's _live_... even things like player comments, pauses, lags, "ggs" and so on improve this atmosphere. But if you know it's not live it takes this atmosphere away... ever watched a recorded soccer/basketball/baseball/whatever match? That sucks too. :/ And even if you don't release the replays before, some people will know it and spread the results (at least friends of the players). Even if this doesnt happen, YOU know the results and this will shine through in your commentary, believe me. (for example, if a match is tight you will see a player in advantage because you know he will win while otherwise you wouldn't see any advantage for him, this is a subconscious thing, I don't think you can do anything about).
Well, to make things shorter: I think you have one guy doing the "camera". Just let observe him the game with no other observers and live stream his screen to your server. And all commentators will watch this secret/non-official/not delayed live stream and comment on the things they see. And the result of THIS will be streamed in a delayed official stream. So only 1 observer in the game itself, which should be fine, and an infinite number of commentators can cast the game. I know this can be done, it's just a question if your tech guy wants to do it (but it should not be too complicated).
And to make things better, if a game supports even 2 observers without lag, one of the commentators could join directly. This is useful, for example when your camera guy misses an action or so.
And if there are games which doesn't support ANY observers, then stream the replays. But in at least half of the ro16 games it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL.
This is my suggestion, thx for reading and think about it. Gogo TSL!
I'm fine with how it is now, aslong as the commentators don't spoil anything and atleast TRY to act like they don't know the results, its going to be good.
On May 07 2008 23:40 Caladan wrote: Okay, I just registered to make this suggestion: Hi, Tl.net!
Streaming replays just kind of takes away the excitement. Live streams are so cool because it's _live_... even things like player comments, pauses, lags, "ggs" and so on improve this atmosphere. But if you know it's not live it takes this atmosphere away... ever watched a recorded soccer/basketball/baseball/whatever match? That sucks too. :/ And even if you don't release the replays before, some people will know it and spread the results (at least friends of the players). Even if this doesnt happen, YOU know the results and this will shine through in your commentary, believe me. (for example, if a match is tight you will see a player in advantage because you know he will win while otherwise you wouldn't see any advantage for him, this is a subconscious thing, I don't think you can do anything about).
The players will tell no one the results until the broadcast is over.
Well, to make things shorter: I think you have one guy doing the "camera". Just let observe him the game with no other observers and live stream his screen to your server. And all commentators will watch this secret/non-official/not delayed live stream and comment on the things they see. And the result of THIS will be streamed in a delayed official stream. So only 1 observer in the game itself, which should be fine, and an infinite number of commentators can cast the game. I know this can be done, it's just a question if your tech guy wants to do it (but it should not be too complicated).
We tried this, it isn't really possible. You need someone encoding and streaming the video to three people, who all must be in perfect sync. If there's any buffering with any of them, the whole thing goes out of sync (and can't be fixed on the fly). You also need a second person streaming and encoding the second "assembled" stream to the server. It's a technical nightmare, but I'm sure R1CH could do it.
The big thing this doesn't solve is lag issues. We're going to be on the stream trying #LL, #L2, Hamachi, obs, no obs, etc. trying to solve people's lag issues, and it's impossible to know which ones going to work. You probably don't want to sit on a stream watching all this take place. What happens when the two players can't support an observer? Too bad? There's no solution. You can't stream the replay, because what do you do for two hours while the game is being played? Just shut the stream down and then start it back up? It hardly seems like a solution.
Maybe my explanation isn't correct, but R1CH said we shouldn't do it and that's enough for me.
And to make things better, if a game supports even 2 observers without lag, one of the commentators could join directly. This is useful, for example when your camera guy misses an action or so.
And if there are games which doesn't support ANY observers, then stream the replays. But in at least half of the ro16 games it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL.
This is my suggestion, thx for reading and think about it. Gogo TSL!
How are we going to stream half live half replays? It's too complicated, what do we do in between? It needs to be one or the other, we can't be switching formats on the fly and make a coherent cast. Streaming replays is the best available option. The double stream possibly could work, if there was more than three days before the cast and R1CH wasn't already setting up nine thousand other things.
Again, some people can support a stream with #LL, most people can't. It's great that you've seen many live streams with #LL, I'm telling you I've been in games with these people can't they can't support it.
Caladan, first read the opening post because a lot of your information is wrong. The casters won't know the results. Second, you don't have to convince us on why live is better. You don't think we know why live is better? Come on, we're not stupid.
In at least half the ro16 it should be possible for at least one observer to watch. ... For example Mondi vs Dreiven, I don't think there will be any lag issues. I've seen many live streams with #LL.
You must realize that we tested all this right? We didn't just say "hey, Mondi vs Dreiven probably won't work so we won't do it live." That's ridiculous. 80% of the players can barely play with one obs from a different country on LL.
Secondly, I think you vastly underestimate the scheduling/testing/technical side of things. Your "solution" to this problem is basically a scheduling and technical nightmare. We have to get all the casters and all the players and test every means possible, and that's still not a guarantee because plenty of the players' connections are inconsistent. For example, we had several groups in the Ro32 where people lagged randomly for a few hours then stopped again. No amount of pre-testing was going to make it happen. On the technical side, we'd be trying something that we never did before and couldn't test for more than a few days. Add to this complicated issues with our obs and his need to inject video/images/intro etc, and you have a recipe for disaster.
Live games would be ambitious to attempt and could be a possibility for future TSLs and possibly even later rounds of this TSL, but for right now it's impossible. Saying things like "Mondi and Dreiven surely can do it live!" or "I've seen so many #LL streams why can't you do it!?!" Is not really helpful, because you haven't tested the players--we have. You haven't tried to get live casting to work without a live studio, scheduling issues, and international laggy connections--we have. If it was feasible on our side to do it "full live" instead of "semi live" we'd have done it that way.
Bottom line is, if you're whining about the post-match replay cast right now, you'd be whining way more about the hours of delay and laggy games if we didn't do it this way. Yes, you lose a bit of true "live" excitement, but we believe that's a choice you would make when faced with an unwatchable broadcast filled with technical delays and player lag.
Very sad. I won't be able to dl the VOD's and I wont be able to watch the stream at that time... Apart from that, streaming replays is not worth watching it.
First, I don't "whine". No need to be offended, ok? I just wanted to make a suggestion, this was no critique. I believe that you've done anything you could. I understand your reasoning, it's ok when the risk of having live problems is too high (and there is a high risk).
Would be cool if you could "forbid" players to tell their friends the results until you streamed the games.
gl hf and I'm looking forward to the streams! Keep the good work up!
(Btw, just a tech sidenote: I dont think you need a 2nd encoding server, it should be possible to just "copy" the original stream on the server to the 2nd delayed stream and then add the audio-only stream from the casters. The hard thing would be to get these both things synchronized perfectly, with latency, buffers, etc. But, as you said, maybe an option for a second TSL.)
Haha, the vehemence with which the mods reply here should be an indication of how hotly this topic has been debated in the last few days. But in the end, it all comes down to the fact that this is not a live tournament from a physical location, but an online tournament that depends on people from chile/russia/wherever to connect to each other using very fallible internet lines.
The lag is the only reason we are not casting this. If there wasn't any lag, we would have cast this live, but due to the lag (which is 100% unavoidable, we've even set up proxies to test connections etc), there is no way thatwe can get a smooth broadcast done for you guys, and have a smooth game for the players.
The games will still be cast live. They will be cast as the games finish, and they will be the only source of results. No-one (except for the players and their managers) will know the results before you do. That includes those of us organizing the tournament, and even the commentators. We will be streaming this live to you as we receive the games, and if we didn't tell you guys that we were streaming replays, you wouldn't have known the difference :p
That said, we hope you all really enjoy the casts. They will be great.
On May 08 2008 00:21 uNiGNoRe wrote: Very sad. I won't be able to dl the VOD's and I wont be able to watch the stream at that time... Apart from that, streaming replays is not worth watching it.
Well, assuming you could download the VODs, if you'd rather watch it by yourself a few days later instead of watching right after games are played with a chatroom where everyone is watching it and commenting as well, I suppose that's your personal choice.
To those that are suddenly deciding not to watch because "its not worth it" to watch replays that nobody has ever seen and are played right before, I hope you at least give the broadcasts a chance and take a look before just deciding you're not going to check it out at all.
On May 08 2008 00:27 Caladan wrote: First, I don't "whine". No need to be offended, ok? I just wanted to make a suggestion, this was no critique. I believe that you've done anything you could.
No. You basically suggested "you should do it live" and then stated things we've already covered, like "casters will spoil" (they won't, because they don't know the results or how many games there will be). You also said "Mondi and Dreiven should be able to be live" when we tested and they clearly couldn't. Then you said "half the Ro16 games should be able to be live" when we tested and basically all of them can't be. Your post is insinuating that we can do live cast but we're simply not trying hard enough, which is not the case.
Rest of staff basically said everything i could think of. Staff have put months of work non stop to make this work and it will.
In regards to the replay issue, the critics here need to think of a couple points before further judgement.
a) We have a sponsor involved and have to make it look good. This is just the start - our first season and its still going to blow your faces off with how good it is. b) While the viewers are very very important, there is 10k on the line. Several matches in the qualifiers were influenced by lag...can you imagine if that happened on air with thousands of people watching? Yeah not going to happen. If you don't like it thats fine, you dont think we'd rather have a live broadcast? Our debate on this has been going for weeks and has gotten very very heated but we are on the same page now - this is the right move to make.
Wow, when did so many people become unappreciative assholes. The fact that the mods are even taking the time to explain this to you guys just goes to show how much they care about this. These guys have put a lot of time and effort in to trying to make this perfect. They don't have unlimited funds and lan connections between every person. Is that really so hard to understand?
Replay, live, even knowing the results ( which they've put more effort into this than to allow for that ) - Stop bitching and be thankful for what you have -_-
Better idea - would you people who are complaining like to front the money for 21 plane tickets ( 16 players, 4 casters, 1 ref ) - then we could assure live coverage.
To clarify, we aren't expecting everyone to kiss our feet and accept anything we put out. We're just saying have a little perspective on the situation. If you are expecting OGN quality broadcast production and want to be watching a Korean StarLeague with foreigners, that's not going to happen here. It's our first season and we're largely amateurs who have never attempted something like this.
That said, I strongly believe our first broadcast will really impress you guys and be worth watching together with all of TL.net in chat and participating.
On May 08 2008 00:21 uNiGNoRe wrote: Very sad. I won't be able to dl the VOD's and I wont be able to watch the stream at that time... Apart from that, streaming replays is not worth watching it.
Well, assuming you could download the VODs, if you'd rather watch it by yourself a few days later instead of watching right after games are played with a chatroom where everyone is watching it and commenting as well, I suppose that's your personal choice.
To those that are suddenly deciding not to watch because "its not worth it" to watch replays that nobody has ever seen and are played right before, I hope you at least give the broadcasts a chance and take a look before just deciding you're not going to check it out at all.
I'm not able to dl them because my ISP fucked up my connection and I got a downstream of 15 kbyte/s maximum. I can't even watch youtube videos right now. So in this situation its most likely that the stream may lag too and this at (i believe) 0:30h when the streaming starts is imho not really worth it. Though I might tune in if the stream is working with my internet problems (ESL-TV stream did) and if the commentators are good enough it might not make a big difference to a real live stream.
And I got a question: Will it be possible for us to choose different streaming qualities? I think that would help me and maybe some others, too.
There are 2 points of view: 1. Players side. People on a bit lower level can't understand how impossible to play even with some lag for high skill players. I can say you honestly - after lagging video streamed Accession and MYM Koth with Notforu i try to avoid any video cast i can, becasue the only absolutely non-lagging cast is CDS)Jump, also once my games vs Mondragon didn't lag... And when you practise hard to make rezult, lossing game cause of video cast... is not what i'm looking for. 2. Spectators side. Game without spectators, just for players is dead. What would be football without fans. Fans like watching live, cause it brings more dramatizm.
But look, TSL tries to make good for both sides, noone else tried that before. May be it will work, may be not, but agree, it's just RO16, TSL admins can change system if it won't work. Let's give em chance From me i can guarantee noone knows my rezults before cast ends...
Will there be sick TSL-intro vids ala Yubees TL-attack material? :o --- The only problem i've ever had with this entire TSL is the waiting!, there's too much time in between matches and what not, hoping for a more compact version next time
Maybe cut the ladder-stage with a week or so. Beacuse i understand that since everything is done online in the actual tournament stages, weekends are the only good choice. Since people do have jobs and other things they have to do, despite the fact that 5k is on the line ^^
This is where it really begins though, i haven't heard Artosis yet but the rumour says he's a real star commentator!
Holy shit people. TSL is providing you something free. FREE. NO CHARGE. Give some appreciation for fuck sake. I don't think a lot of you (complainers) understand how much effort it takes to do this. I think there should be an auto-ban rule for complainers who don't read the OP. Fuck. You guys (everyone helping TSL) are awesome. Don't let shit like this get to you.
For those who want my opinion, there is absolutely no advantage to casting things live, unless you think Bnet latency is a benefit.
Basically, all the other staff members have said everything necessary. For the record, even I was initially against the idea of it not being a "real live" broadcast as I'm pretty anal about watching something live. But when everything was tested and done, it was an impossible task with only several days to prepare. So the choice was between extreme lag, possible technical difficulties, etc or a lag-free, perfect broadcast that's slightly delayed. The latter is the obvious choice.
Remember guys, this is our first TSL. Even though we've tried to account for every possibility months in advance, issues surface at the last minute that nobody could have predicted. That's natural of any project like this. And we are adjusting, we are learning, and we are making it better and better. Just imagine how much better and smoother the next TSL and the one after that will go based on what we've learned here.
Anyways, so many on staff (I haven't done jack) have spent months preparing for it, and they deserve the utmost gratitude, even though Hot_Bid said that's not why they're doing it. But be sure to let them know how much you love them anyways. Those boys really deserve it.
I think when everything works out well with the broadcasts on saturday, nobody will ever even remember about any complaints... Always the same stuff at the beginning.
Btw, you can watch right now PG24 Germany-A vs Russia-A with a czech caster and in the last games 4 random bnet observers, playing on ICCup low LAN latency without lag every game. So the problem is at least no European one as you can see, Ger-Rus is almost the longest possible way in Europe.
So it has to be a problem with the connections over the Atlantic Ocean.
I think everything about the live broadcast has been clearly explained by the mods except the decision not to release the replays. I'm just wondering why you guys aren't releasing them. If it's to preserve the strategies of the players then why have you been releasing every replay up until now? Surely their strategies can't differ that much in ro16. If it's to encourage fans to watch it live, for sponsors and what not, then it's understandable. I just hope you guys continue to release the replays of preliminary matches. Just wondering. Thanks.
On May 08 2008 04:04 Caladan wrote: Btw, you can watch right now PG24 Germany-A vs Russia-A with a czech caster and in the last games 4 random bnet observers, playing on ICCup low LAN latency without lag every game. So the problem is at least no European one as you can see, Ger-Rus is almost the longest possible way in Europe.
So it has to be a problem with the connections over the Atlantic Ocean.
Awesome, when you have 4 plane tickets to Europe booked for Artosis, Hot_Bid, Kennigit, and myself, let me know.
On May 08 2008 04:09 Warrior Madness wrote: I think everything about the live broadcast has been clearly explained by the mods except the decision not to release the replays. I'm just wondering why you guys aren't releasing them. If it's to preserve the strategies of the players then why have you been releasing every replay up until now? Surely their strategies can't differ that much in ro16. If it's to encourage fans to watch it live, for sponsors and what not, then it's understandable. I just hope you guys continue to release the replays of preliminary matches. Just wondering. Thanks.
The VODs-only decision is related to the sponsorship, as they can have branding attached to them, which isn't possible in replays (Other than using a name SPONSOR_Chill).
On May 08 2008 04:09 Warrior Madness wrote: If it's to preserve the strategies of the players then why have you been releasing every replay up until now? Surely their strategies can't differ that much in ro16. If it's to encourage fans to watch it live, for sponsors and what not, then it's understandable. I just hope you guys continue to release the replays of preliminary matches. Just wondering. Thanks.
The idea of sponsorship is that you want people to see the company name etc. You can't do that with a replay. Once we announce the sponsor (next few days) more specific details will be revealed. Yeah its not about strategies because any of these players you can search up and find thousands of reps for. Its not for watching live as much as it is the VODs.
People why don't you just enjoy what you get? I don't see any freaking problem with casting replays. Actually Teamliquid did one mistake which was to tell you guys they are going to cast replays instead of the live games. Thats the only mistake... I bet you wouldn't have noticed..
On May 08 2008 06:06 G.s)NarutO wrote: People why don't you just enjoy what you get? I don't see any freaking problem with casting replays. Actually Teamliquid did one mistake which was to tell you guys they are going to cast replays instead of the live games. Thats the only mistake... I bet you wouldn't have noticed..
lol thats not how we roll. We try to keep you guys as informed with the process as we can so that you understand our reasoning. Teamliquid has built credibility by being straight up so theres nothing to gain by faking it :p
ive got no problems with the replay cast and the VODS only release its just that il miss out on this great event without replays since i cant watch VODS or stream , couldnt they be released a week later or something like that ?
On May 08 2008 05:38 slemmigfot wrote: can't people just be happy that we will have some nice games to watch
Apparently not, lol
I for one, am. I hope the TL staff knows how many people appreciate the efforts they are making to make this a successful event. I also hope there is another one in the future ~
On May 08 2008 06:27 besiger.cry wrote: ive got no problems with the replay cast and the VODS only release its just that il miss out on this great event without replays since i cant watch VODS or stream , couldnt they be released a week later or something like that ?
what about youtube? you must watch youtube. everyone watches youtube O_O im sure someone will be able to upload them afterwards ..
well i watch youtube but the problem is i have a limited amount of MBs i can download each month without paying more, and its not a lot so i try not to hang around youtube too much, i might be able to catch 3-4 games but not the whole thing.
Btw how much MBs does youtube take up per minute ?
I have no problems with casting the replays. I think probably the best decision was made. I do regret that replays will not be released. I prefer to watch replays. But that doesn't take away that this is going to be one awesome tourney.
One of the great things about reps is the 640x480 resolution. I don't expect the live stream to be this good, but will there be downloadable VODs in a high resolution? The reason I ask now is that if there isn't then I'd make time to watch the live stream, but if there will be higher res VODs then I'd rather watch them later.
I will be on a cycling tour this weekend . It's a pity I won't get to watch the first ever live video broadcast of TSL, but I'm sure it will be amazing and I'll definitely catch the VOD's as soon as I have a chance.
Team Liquid fighting! Also Idra, Nony, White-Ra, Dreiven, IefNaij fighting (I realize they cannot all be successful, but fighting nonetheless)!
On May 08 2008 06:06 G.s)NarutO wrote: People why don't you just enjoy what you get? I don't see any freaking problem with casting replays. Actually Teamliquid did one mistake which was to tell you guys they are going to cast replays instead of the live games. Thats the only mistake... I bet you wouldn't have noticed..
lol thats not how we roll. We try to keep you guys as informed with the process as we can so that you understand our reasoning. Teamliquid has built credibility by being straight up so theres nothing to gain by faking it :p
I know.. but still bugs me that so many are complaining. Its not like they paid for something..-_-
I believe the player is embedded into your browser along with an IRC client so you can chat live with the action. There will probably be an alternate direct URL provided in case you have issues connecting to the embedded stream.
On May 07 2008 09:24 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: I don't think theres a single match I'm not looking forward to, with maybe the exception of White-Ra's boring PvT vs IdrAs progamer TvP. Ra's PvT reps always strike me as boring, but his PvZ is always nice so it balances out :O
Wow you must be really hard to please then... BRAT_OK vs Haypro should be good but I think BRAT will win it.
I'm also hope Mondragon vs Dreiven is good and that mondi doesn't win it too easily.
I think you msread somethng, i said they are all good and i like them all, just IDrA and white ra not so much :O
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TSL_Launch/TSLworld_banner.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.gif)
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/pl.png)
Retired_Draco vs. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.gif)
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ua.png)
MYM.Strelok![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ca.png)
Excello.IefNaij vs. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/it.png)
ToT)ClouD(![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/lt.png)
T.SQD)Kr vs. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.gif)
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/us.png)
Idra[Media]![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/ru.png)
RoX.BRAT_OK vs. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/se.png)
HayprO![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/nl.png)
ret[Media] vs. ![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/cl.png)
![[image loading]](http://teamliquid.net/images/flags2/de.png)
ToT)Mondragon( vs. 
![[image loading]](http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9943/24383brokebackmountainpqt2.png)
