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Sirakor
Great Britain455 Posts
And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =) Thanks again guys for all the hard work, really looking forward to it! (esp to high qual vods ;-) | ||
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BlaCha
Poland743 Posts
Pity that all Poles will drop out in first round, except maybe for Paran0id who can pull out a win there. | ||
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HanN00b
Germany1441 Posts
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Kaoz
Poland48 Posts
On May 07 2008 17:52 Sirakor wrote: And hey - look at the bright side: in a Live game you might miss some of the action that goes on elsewhere, in the VOD you could make sure to capture most of it =) Thats assuming the caster watched the game earlier which sucks imo. Even knowing the outcome of the game takes out tension from commentary, emotions are slightly faked, theres no suprises, predictions are 100% accurate etc. Since you decide to stream the replays, at least make it live-ish. | ||
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Cesar2000
Sweden185 Posts
- The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game. I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway. | ||
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HanN00b
Germany1441 Posts
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game. I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway. I agree | ||
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Raiju
Australia235 Posts
So far i have luv'd the coverage of TSL, its been fucking amazing. I much rather watch a replay so i can analyse it compared 2 a VOD tho. Is there some reason replays can't be put out in a pack like they have in the previous roudns? | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On May 07 2008 17:37 Kaoz wrote: I'm not an expert here but watched tons of international tourneys with random players from around the world without any stream problems. And not only starcraft but CS or BF as well, where you have 10+ players, so I guess so called "experienced media" know how to deal with it. The difference is that if one player lags in a CS/BF game that one player will be the only one affected by lag issues. The server will not be affected. The other players won't feel it. The casters won't feel it... Starcraft is programmed in such a way that players have to be synced at all times (meaning if one person lags, everyone will lag just as much in order to keep the game in sync). This is to prevent any discrepancies in what the players view on the screen. So that a dragoon doesn't die for one player (due to lag), while for a different player it lives... making the game crash. Counterstrike and BF on the other hand, use a different model where the server approximates players' movements and positions based on the latest available data. If there is a discrepancy, it will be corrected as fresh data is sent to the server. That's why hitboxes exist in Counterstrike, and NOT in Starcraft. And this is why players with 500+ ping seem to be moving like characters out of the movie Jumper (i.e. blinking forward with delays). In order to keep the game moving smoothly the server will send you details about what location it thinks a certain player model will be moving towards in the next "update interval". Of course, players' actual movements don't fully correspond these "predictions". That's why you can aim straight at someone's head in Counterstrike and still miss the shot due to the hitboxes lagging behind. Basically you should've ended your post at "I'm not an expert..." | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
On May 07 2008 18:19 Kaoz wrote: Thats assuming the caster watched the game earlier which sucks imo. Even knowing the outcome of the game takes out tension from commentary, emotions are slightly faked, theres no suprises, predictions are 100% accurate etc. Since you decide to stream the replays, at least make it live-ish. Agreed. Whoever is commentating/casting on the replay should be watching it for the first time and should not know the outcome. | ||
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Kaoz
Poland48 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 07 2008 19:39 useLess wrote: Agreed. Whoever is commentating/casting on the replay should be watching it for the first time and should not know the outcome. werd | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: Yea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game. I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway. Yes, I think this sums it up pretty nicely. If all these points are covered, it will be fucking awesome! I am looking forward to it. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
There are further issues to contest with, such as games crashing. It's happened more than once during the qualifiers that one of the contestants had a game crash, and the match had to be restarted. This would look dreadful viewed live, and would just spark too much flaming. So in the end, we are still broadcasting live, but just from replays. None of the casters or even admin will know the results, and the games will basically be streamed as we get them, with a minor buffer to ensure that we don't have to wait too long for the next games. I hope you guys understand that this is not a decision made lightly, but a decision made in the interests of you guys watching it, and the players playing it. | ||
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indecision
Germany818 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 07 2008 18:31 Cesar2000 wrote: And all three of those criteria are things we're doing... essentially you are getting the games almost immediately after they are playedYea, I actually think doing it this way is a lot better, as long as: - The results are not revealed to ANYONE before the match has aired - The replay-o-meter is hidden - The casters don't know the results or anything about what'll happen in the game. I'd expect this is what'll happen (the replay-o-meter has already been confirmed, and the other 2 points seem fairly obvious), so basically if they hadn't said that they are casting the replays, noone would have been able to figure it out anyway. On May 07 2008 17:39 HanN00b wrote: I assure you, we have exhausted every possible option. The limiting facotr in most cases is geographical distance screwing things up. The sheer number of issues and incidents in the qualifiers gave us a good indication of what to expect in the tournament - and seeing as that was only 1 ref + 2 player (sometimes just the two players) the straight live is impossible if we want to maintain an enjoyable and uninterrupted cast. How disappointing would it be for lag to ruin an epic match and have us fiddle around until its fixed? We are using the method that is guaranteed to give good results to maintain a high end viewing experience. Not live is very disappointing (most of the games could be casted live without any problems). Make sure people dont see the replay progress bar. And make sure no one knows the result. NOT GG.net or anyone else. Play with 2 casters (dont know why 4 must be ingame) and set Latency Changer on high (almost no difference to lat changer with low) and it will work. WarNiX casted GSL Mondragon vs Gentleman without lag. Test it it would work. If not think hard of a way to fix the lag because casting replays is ridiculous. At the end of the day, this isn't ongamenet (yet). They have booths roughly 10m apart - we have players spanning continents - that affects the lag no matter how fast your internet is. These results won't leak, its nearly impossible for them to leak as they are being played in extremely close proximity to the actual casting - and the players have been warned about any breaches in this. The results stay between the ref of the game, hotbid and the players - no one else on the TSL staff or public gets to know. You can trust tl.net, we obviously want to give the best quality for this and we would not being doing reps without a bloody good reason. The reps should be indistinguishable from the real thing so there will be no quality loss. | ||
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Get.Midikem
Sweden312 Posts
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HanN00b
Germany1441 Posts
On May 07 2008 20:33 Plexa wrote: And all three of those criteria are things we're doing... essentially you are getting the games almost immediately after they are played These results won't leak, its nearly impossible for them to leak as they are being played in extremely close proximity to the actual casting - and the players have been warned about any breaches in this. The results stay between the ref of the game, hotbid and the players - no one else on the TSL staff or public gets to know. You can trust tl.net, we obviously want to give the best quality for this and we would not being doing reps without a bloody good reason. The reps should be indistinguishable from the real thing so there will be no quality loss. This molified me. PS: Good idea to provide kinda pregame coverage. | ||
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Xan
Norway257 Posts
On May 07 2008 17:39 HanN00b wrote: Not live is very disappointing (most of the games could be casted live without any problems). Make sure people dont see the replay progress bar. And make sure no one knows the result. NOT GG.net or anyone else. Play with 2 casters (dont know why 4 must be ingame) and set Latency Changer on high (almost no difference to lat changer with low) and it will work. WarNiX casted GSL Mondragon vs Gentleman without lag. Test it it would work. If not think hard of a way to fix the lag because casting replays is ridiculous. You get how horribly stupid you sound in your understanding of the issue when reciting a german sucessfully casting 2 germans without lag. if people actually get how latency works in bw which was nicely described earlier in this thread they'd get why it has to be done this way. Anyhow this will be a great event, and with the right interface on the stream you won't actually even be able to know it ain't live if not told so. | ||
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.kaz
1963 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
In the end, the fans are as important as the players. Forcing players to play on B.Net latency for the sake of the stream being live isn't an option. Trust me, I fought very hard for the cast to be of the live games, but at this point it just is not possible. I mean, you can make comments like "it's possible" but it isn't, because we've actually tried it. Casting live with good latency is not consistently possible. If you have suggestions, go for it, but don't cite things that aren't applicable. We had lag issues in many of the second day Ro32 games, and they couldn't be solved on B.Net, Chaos, ICC, Hamachi, or any other client. Yes, I'm sure you've seen live casts before, but were they on #LL? Were they with people from different countries with several observers from different countries as well? Probably not. The issue becomes very difficult when you make it an international one, especially when certain players do not always have reliable connections. There's money and sponsorship involved, so the cast can't fumble around while we solve latency and lag issues. We've considered several alternatives, from B.Net latency to making the casters cast from the stream. In the end, this is the best solution. I agree that in a perfect world it would be casted live, but you won't know the results, and I guarantee you won't know it's a replay. Plus everyone will be chatting live about the same games you are watching, which is all the fun of watching games live. | ||
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