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Croatia9454 Posts
On July 18 2015 22:11 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Is scan going to be allowed to play in the TLS championship? Afaik he was not living in korea/china as a semi pro or whatever he is now, back during the TSL, and as such was treated differently. He was not allowed to play in any of the 3 previous TLS leagues so why change it now? Or are you treating admittance standards for legacy cups as completely different from the TLS?
As Cele said, Scan wasn't allowed to play in previous TLS leagues because he was banned on TL, not because he was Korean. He has been unbanned since then on TL, so there's nothing stopping him now from playing.
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On July 18 2015 22:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote:
No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency.
As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours.
From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned.
Foreigner scene for foreigners. i think it's a good thing  Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was  Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErG trutaCz Julia Marwin  LancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think. If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean.
we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase...
not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
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On July 18 2015 22:14 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 22:11 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Is scan going to be allowed to play in the TLS championship? Afaik he was not living in korea/china as a semi pro or whatever he is now, back during the TSL, and as such was treated differently. He was not allowed to play in any of the 3 previous TLS leagues so why change it now? Or are you treating admittance standards for legacy cups as completely different from the TLS? As Cele said, Scan wasn't allowed to play in previous TLS leagues because he was banned on TL, not because he was Korean. He has been unbanned since then on TL, so there's nothing stopping him now from playing.
ic, I thought it was cuz hes living in korea/china playing in their leagues and such
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I don't think it's bad for Scan to be able to play in tournament given the regulations on who can join. The only suggestion that I would make is that the tournament be double elimination because everyone else is playing for second place. It'd be unfortunate if the person who would otherwise win is on the same side of the bracket as Scan.
As dragon said above, no one is going to beat Scan. Or at least, it's incredibly unlikely.
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On July 18 2015 22:20 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 22:08 Cele wrote:On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote:
No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency.
As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours.
From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned.
Foreigner scene for foreigners. i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErG trutaCz Julia Marwin LancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think. If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean. we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase... not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
agreed he plays on a very high level.
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On July 18 2015 20:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote:
ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea. He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament. If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
impossible  (see actually top foreign never win vs scan only me) Always scan: D but ya difficult im one player(foreign) who can win scan if i motivated and lot of play but im not play bw 1-2 mounths and idk back lot play again .
and good too see again u 2pac:D and tour gl hf.
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TLADT24920 Posts
The main purpose of TLC is to help the foreign scene grow and for players to practice for TLS. While it's true that Scan is Korean, he has been actively participating on TL and streaming as well. To us, participating in this community is the most important thing.
Yes, Scan is good and usually tops the list unless he's up against Sziky then it's close, but, banning someone from TLC etc... due to their skill level is never a good idea.
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Croatia9454 Posts
On July 18 2015 22:20 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 22:08 Cele wrote:On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote:
No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency.
As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours.
From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned.
Foreigner scene for foreigners. i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErG trutaCz Julia Marwin LancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think. If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean. we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase... not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
On July 18 2015 22:38 Eywa- wrote:
I don't think it's bad for Scan to be able to play in tournament given the regulations on who can join. The only suggestion that I would make is that the tournament be double elimination because everyone else is playing for second place. It'd be unfortunate if the person who would otherwise win is on the same side of the bracket as Scan.
As dragon said above, no one is going to beat Scan. Or at least, it's incredibly unlikely.
Yeah, the initial plan was to have it double elimination, but TL's tournament system doesn't support double elimination tournament type so we went with single-elimination. We might change it to double elimination after a few tours after we see how it goes. Also, the prize difference between 1st and 2nd place was lowered to compensate for this.
Yes, and Scan was allowed to play in TSL1/2 under those rules.
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I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
From a "helping the foreign scene" standpoint, allowing scan to participate is a detriment because it not only creates less entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result, it lessens motivation for foreigners such as myself to come back out of inactivity and practice if they can only realistically get as far in the bracket as they avoid facing scan. If growing the foreign scene is the main priority here then having a korean semi pro/practice partner participate is probably counter productive.
I dont have anything against scan and its good that he streams and posts on TL, but he moved to korea for a reason, to participate in their scene over ours. The first 3 TLS were great tournaments that embodied the spirit of foreign bw to me, so having the championship suddenly include korean sospa players just doesnt make sense
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i feel bad for scan but it's true that he's already in the korean scene
Maybe you can solve the problem with a more even split of the prize money
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I saw Naugrim playing the other day, it would be awesome to see him practice and do well in this tour.
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Croatia9454 Posts
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
From a "helping the foreign scene" standpoint, allowing scan to participate is a detriment because it not only creates less entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result, it lessens motivation for foreigners such as myself to come back out of inactivity and practice if they can only realistically get as far in the bracket as they avoid facing scan. If growing the foreign scene is the main priority here then having a korean semi pro/practice partner participate is probably counter productive.
I dont have anything against scan and its good that he streams and posts on TL, but he moved to korea for a reason, to participate in their scene over ours. The first 3 TLS were great tournaments that embodied the spirit of foreign bw to me, so having the championship suddenly include korean sospa players just doesnt make sense
The point is, even if we were to ban Scan for being "too good", we'd still have Sziky and be left with the same problem. Please re-watch the TLS1/2/3 finals and tell me if those have solved the "entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result" problem.
We tried to make it very clear that this is a foreign BW tournament and it's very unreasonable to say that Scan doesn't fit the spirit of the tournament after he has been a member of the foreign BW scene for years, and contributing one at that (despite his shaky past).
This whole argument you're trying to present is very reminiscent of the one we had during TSL when people argued that IdrA shouldn't be allowed to play because he was in a pro team and practicing with best players in the world. This is what Rekrul had to say about that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/111160-should-idra-b-allowed-to-play-in-tsl
On July 18 2015 23:42 JieXian wrote:
i feel bad for scan but isn't he already in the korean scene
Maybe you can solve the problem with a more even split of the prize money
Yes, but he is also in the foreign BW scene. We did go with a more even split of the prize money in Legacy Cups and likely will do the same for TLS Championship as well.
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On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
2) As for one sided goes - there has been a year or so without Scan around. It was still very one sided thanks to Sziky. If it wasn't for Sziky, it prolly would be another rather unbeatable player or duo, e.g. eOn vs. trutaCz, we had about half a year of that in Defiler et al. as well.
3) Unlike Scan, Sziky [insert many other foreigners] rarely posts here, on Defiler, netwars, reps.ru or bw.de, no idea about psistorm either. He doesn't nearly participate as much. Granted, the younger Scan of 2011 was a childish moron, nowadays he's really helpful in many ways, e.g. by sharing replays, linking and translating sources and helping with the wiki in parts. I don't mean to talk Sziky down or make him look bad, but you shouldn't forget that Scan is definitely a part of this scene, other than the hundreds of SOSPA guys, who barely manage to speak one word, or show any sign that they care for TL/foreigners.
In the end you simply have to accept that Scan might play, it's not like he confirmed his participations. The only valid reason to tell him to not sign up would be if he caused severe lag conflicts with other players, so that games are literally impossible. Everything else is just odd, because you can't really disguise the fact it'd be an arbitrary (yet understandable) decision.
It might be that I'm biased, because Scan's progress as person has impressed me. I usually hold grudges for a very long time and that boy gave me plenty of reason to support you just for the sake of having him out. But he really did work on it, so that might distort my point of view heavily.
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We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
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On July 19 2015 00:17 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat. Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account. Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
I definitely don't think you're overestimating Scan's skill, but I do think you're underestimating Sziky's skill. I don't remember the last time Sziky lost an event that he actually practiced for.
I mean, either way you have a situation where 1st place is nearly pre-determined. Maybe 1 person can beat Sziky when he's practicing, maybe Sziky can beat Scan... Both scenarios improbable.
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Gonna be clear like water,Scan in means everyone is playing for second place,it doesnt help us in anything,players that are inactive right now there is no way they could be in beast form to even take a game from him unless he kills two scvs in the start.sziky is till beatable.Scan is not.I also think some players gonna watch oh this guy playing the tourney no even worth train.. just my opinion.Imo just add some semipros too then we could have a very high level tourney :smart:
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imo let scan play, hes contributed enough to foreign bw and isn't he technically considered a american-korean? he was also allowed to play in the other TLS, why deny him entry now? anyways thats just my 2 cents
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Is Paranoid Android still imbalanced with mining time where the top base mines faster, or was that fixed at some point?
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On July 19 2015 00:17 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat. Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account. Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
tell me exactly in which professional tournament Scan played in which Sziky didnt play? Granted, Scan
trains with SOSPA Stars like Zero, but to my knowledge he doesnt play in Sospa events? Or am i missing something here? As for the Chinese scene: Sziky, Eon and tacz participated in the last C-OSL, Sziky did go pretty far putting up good results and had to forfeit a number of games due to lag issues. So where exactly is the difference?
To clarify my point: I don't see why Scan should be treated as "Semi-pro", given the events he plays, coz he doesnt play high caliber events that sziky doesnt and he doesn't belong to a team sziky doesn't belong to. They both play for Minus) if im correct as Minus)little and Minus)tmzos or somerthing.
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