Since the last OSL aired, the BW community has been getting smaller with time. Though our numbers have been greatly reduced from yesteryear, the remaining members still embody passion that is only rivaled by few other communities. The Legacy Cup Series, sponsored by Rus_Brain, will be held weekly for the sole purpose of fostering a more active foreign scene as well as help players prepare and practice for the TLS Championship which will be held on January 9, 2016.
Each tournament will be a one day event played on a Saturday, with the first Legacy Cup being scheduled for July 25th. A Live Report thread will be created in the BW Tournaments forum where you'll be able find a registration link, among other information, for every Legacy Cup. Each Legacy Cup will have a prize pool of $100 in the single-elimination format, but that is subject to change in later iterations after we receive valuable information and feedback from community.
Legacy Cups are played every Saturday at 17:00 GMT (+00:00). Broadcast will start an hour later, at 18:00 GMT (+00:00)http://www.twitch.tv/teamliquidnet
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Exceptions to the above rule will be provided to individual cases based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
How many Legacy Cups will there be? We're planning on having around twenty of them. But that is subject to change depending on the feedback we get as we go along.
How many Legacy Cups I can participate in? You can play in any number of Legacy Cups.
What is the map order for Bo3 and Bo5 games? In Bo3 and Bo5 games the loser picks the map from the provided map pool. Each map from that map pool can only be played once.
Will all Legacy Cups have the same format and/or maps? Maybe. Maybe not. Based on the feedback from the community and the things we learn while organizing these tournaments, we'll be willing to adjust the future tournaments to provide the best possible experience.
What about banned or previously disqualified users? Banned users (for any reason) cannot enter these tournaments. Do not try to circumvent by creating smurf accounts. We will find you, and you will be disqualified from the TLS and future TL events.
What about hackers / cheaters / abusers? Any sort of cheating may result in disqualification from the TLS and from future TL events. We take cheating very seriously, and we will hand out harsh punishments.
Tournament will be held on the iCCup Server. Do not register unless you have an iCCup Account (you can get one for free right here) and can play on the iCCup server.
Official iCCup Channel: op Legacy. You're not required to join this channel to find your opponent, but referees will be in this channel if you need to ask any questions.
iCCup Name Changes: If you have changed your iCCup name you need to let the system know! Be sure to check your account details as people have been disqualified from previous TL events due to incorrect information.
iCCup Chat Commands: A short list of useful commands to aid those who are new to iCCup navigate and communicate with players/staff/refs:
/Whois [name] This command allows you look up if the person is online/offline, which channel or game they are in. E.g. /Whois Elegant
/W [name] [text] If you need to privately message or get in direct contact with someone simply type in /W followed by their name and then the message. E.g. /w TLSPlayer15 Are you ready to play?
/R [text] This command allows you to quickly reply to the last person who directly messaged you. E.g. /R Yes I am ready to play
/Join [channel] Allows you to join a channel. E.g. /Join op TSL
/DND [text] As you may have figured, this command prevents anyone from contacting you. Simply type in /DND followed by your quick note. E.g. /DND trying to qualify for TLS. To turn off DND, simply type /DND again.
Note: Spoilers: Remember, due to the nature of this tournament, games will be cast from replays. As a result, there is a potential for spoilers.
Note: In game observers: No observers outside of designated TL casters. Their IDs will be listed in the rules here. If your opponent tries to have observers, you must stop the game and contact a referee. This means you can leave if he invites his friends or just starts the game. It is your responsibility not to allow it.
Format
Single-Elimination Tournament
Bracket will be displayed on TeamLiquid. Participants must log in to view opponent IDs to contact their opponents for matches.
Players must contact each other through iCCup chat and arrange a host.
Winners will report results and upload replays after each round.
If a game's results are disputed (both players report win), Tournament Referees will check replays and determine who advances.
Best of 1 until Round of 8.
Best of 3 in Ro8, Ro4.
Best of 5 in Finals.
TLC Rules
Players are permitted to stream or cast games up to the semifinals, streaming or spoiling the semifinals or final series will result in disqualification.
Players may not have any stream open in the background when playing.
Any violation of TLC Rules may result in game forfeit and future suspension from TLC and other TL events.
No cheating in any way. This includes any sort of hack or illegal program and receiving messages from friends watching the stream. This also includes account sharing or playing under an ID that you did not register under.
Players must set status to /dnd during tournament matches.
Players must arrive within 10 minutes of the end of the previous round. After 10 minutes, every 10 minutes is a game loss for the player who is not present. Ex: with one player present for 20 minutes, 1-0, 30 minutes, 2-0.
If your opponent is not present for 20 minutes, please message a referee.
Players may change race between games.
Players may not play in another tournament that conflicts with TLC play time. Referees may disqualify players that delay the TLC due to scheduling conflicts.
Referees may warn and disqualify players for chat violations, including excessive or abusive insults toward players, observers, or referees.
Maps and Host Rules
Games will be hosted on one of the approved maps from the iCCup map pack.
In a Bo1 games, host must create on designated map for that round.
In a Bo3 and Bo5 games, the loser picks the next map from the provided map pool.
Maps cannot be played twice in a series.
It is the player's responsibility to check the map pool. If a player protests an incorrect map after playing a game on it, the game will not be replayed.
If neither of the players can host, contact the referee who will host the game for you.
Map Pool: TeamLiquid Legacy Cups will use five maps that will be interchanged each round: Fighting Spirit, Match Point, Tau Cross, Paranoid Android and Circuit Breaker. Map order for each round is given below:
Round 1 - Ro128 (Bo1) - Fighting Spirit Round 2 - Ro64 (Bo1) - Match Point Round 3 - Ro32 (Bo1) - Tau Cross Round 4 - Ro16 (Bo1) - Paranoid Android Round 5 - Ro8 (Bo3) - Circuit Breaker (Loser picks next map) Round 6 - Ro4 (Bo3) - Fighting Spirit (Loser picks next map) Round 7 - 3rd Place Match (Bo3) - Tau Cross (Loser picks next map) Round 8 - Finals (Bo5) - Match Point (Loser picks next map)
Download: The maps used in this tournament are from the iCCup map pool, and are available to download here
Disconnects and Lag
If your opponent is disconnecting, players should take a screenshot of the lag screen and contact the tournament referee.
If a disconnect happens in the first five minutes and there has been no player-opponent contact, game will be replayed.
In a Bo1, if a disconnect happens after player-opponent contact, disconnecting player may receive a loss. The Referee will make the final decision after reviewing the screenshot and replay.
In a Bo3, if a disconnect happens after player-contact, player must contact Referee immediately and Referee will decide how to proceed after reviewing the evidence.
Referees and Tournament Administrators reserve the right to overturn results or award wins based on evidence they see.
In a disconnecting situation, both players can agree to a regame.
If there is persistent unplayable lag (lag screen comes up more than once in a short time), players must contact a Referee who will decide how to proceed.
Coverage and Observer Rules
TL will officially cast both semifinals and the finals.
No observers are allowed in games other than those designated by TL.
TL will designate "approved" observers who will be allowed to observe and broadcast games.
TL referees are also allowed to be in game.
There will only be a maximum of one observer in each match.
If game lags with an approved observer in game, that observer must leave at the request of a player. If a TL referee is in game, he will make this decision.
Observers and broadcasters are subject to the same rules for cheating and abuse as players. TL may suspend observers from future TL events if violations occur.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
please let me know if i am qualified to play. THX.
On July 18 2015 07:39 yellowsmile wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
please let me know if i am qualified to play. THX.
On July 18 2015 08:07 GeckoXp wrote: if any chinese/korean pro reads this, this account right here is for rent. only 10% of each of your wins to me, keke
edit: comes with liquipedia reviewer status as well, so you can technically claim win by edit, even if you sleep over.
Are you telling us you could pass as a pro after we see "your" replay? ^^
On July 18 2015 08:07 GeckoXp wrote: if any chinese/korean pro reads this, this account right here is for rent. only 10% of each of your wins to me, keke
edit: comes with liquipedia reviewer status as well, so you can technically claim win by edit, even if you sleep over.
Are you telling us you could pass as a pro after we see "your" replay? ^^
well maybe gecko has been sandbagging this entire time and is a S class player
On July 18 2015 08:07 GeckoXp wrote: if any chinese/korean pro reads this, this account right here is for rent. only 10% of each of your wins to me, keke
edit: comes with liquipedia reviewer status as well, so you can technically claim win by edit, even if you sleep over.
Are you telling us you could pass as a pro after we see "your" replay? ^^
well maybe gecko has been sandbagging this entire time and is a S class player
Gecko > World in case you didnt know Very hyped for this, finally the long awaited TLS follow up tournament is here! Im gonna play in a couple cups and never reach round two. yeah!
My iccup account contains brackets ( [ ] ) - but it seems the tournament registration where it says "tl server account name" won't allow brackets. Does it even matter? (e.g. During the start of the tournament when it says ProtossGG is up against whomever, I would obviously say it's me... for the interim I've just put my same account name just without the brackets).
On July 18 2015 08:07 GeckoXp wrote: if any chinese/korean pro reads this, this account right here is for rent. only 10% of each of your wins to me, keke
edit: comes with liquipedia reviewer status as well, so you can technically claim win by edit, even if you sleep over.
Are you telling us you could pass as a pro after we see "your" replay? ^^
Dude, after only 14 days of BW I 5 Pooled ToT)Norti( on B-net Ladder with success.
On July 18 2015 13:55 ProtossGG wrote: My iccup account contains brackets ( [ ] ) - but it seems the tournament registration where it says "tl server account name" won't allow brackets. Does it even matter? (e.g. During the start of the tournament when it says ProtossGG is up against whomever, I would obviously say it's me... for the interim I've just put my same account name just without the brackets).
I changed the format of the BWAPI mini Tour #2 so that it will end before this tournament starts. If you want some practise before this tour starts, you can sign up for the BWAPI mini Tour #2. Open to all ranks (open to Koreans/Chinese as well).
On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote: ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea.
He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament.
If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The cut who is allowed to play and who is not should be clearer. If Scan plays, i would love to see Sea and some others participate as well.
On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote: ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea.
He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament.
If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The cut who is allowed to play and who is not should be clearer. If Scan plays, i would love to see Sea and some others participate as well.
Why did you left out the the most important part of the eligibility rule in Scan case? How is it not clear enough that those who are a part of the foreign BW scene are allowed to play?
No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErGtrutaCzJuliaMarwinLancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think.
If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean.
Is scan going to be allowed to play in the TLS championship? Afaik he was not living in korea/china as a semi pro or whatever he is now, back during the TSL, and as such was treated differently. He was not allowed to play in any of the 3 previous TLS leagues so why change it now? Or are you treating admittance standards for legacy cups as completely different from the TLS?
On July 18 2015 22:11 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Is scan going to be allowed to play in the TLS championship? Afaik he was not living in korea/china as a semi pro or whatever he is now, back during the TSL, and as such was treated differently. He was not allowed to play in any of the 3 previous TLS leagues so why change it now? Or are you treating admittance standards for legacy cups as completely different from the TLS?
As Cele said, Scan wasn't allowed to play in previous TLS leagues because he was banned on TL, not because he was Korean. He has been unbanned since then on TL, so there's nothing stopping him now from playing.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErGtrutaCzJuliaMarwinLancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think.
If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean.
we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase...
not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
On July 18 2015 22:11 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Is scan going to be allowed to play in the TLS championship? Afaik he was not living in korea/china as a semi pro or whatever he is now, back during the TSL, and as such was treated differently. He was not allowed to play in any of the 3 previous TLS leagues so why change it now? Or are you treating admittance standards for legacy cups as completely different from the TLS?
As Cele said, Scan wasn't allowed to play in previous TLS leagues because he was banned on TL, not because he was Korean. He has been unbanned since then on TL, so there's nothing stopping him now from playing.
ic, I thought it was cuz hes living in korea/china playing in their leagues and such
I don't think it's bad for Scan to be able to play in tournament given the regulations on who can join. The only suggestion that I would make is that the tournament be double elimination because everyone else is playing for second place. It'd be unfortunate if the person who would otherwise win is on the same side of the bracket as Scan.
As dragon said above, no one is going to beat Scan. Or at least, it's incredibly unlikely.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErGtrutaCzJuliaMarwinLancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think.
If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean.
we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase...
not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote: ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea.
He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament.
If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
impossible (see actually top foreign never win vs scan only me) Always scan: D but ya difficult im one player(foreign) who can win scan if i motivated and lot of play but im not play bw 1-2 mounths and idk back lot play again .
The main purpose of TLC is to help the foreign scene grow and for players to practice for TLS. While it's true that Scan is Korean, he has been actively participating on TL and streaming as well. To us, participating in this community is the most important thing.
Yes, Scan is good and usually tops the list unless he's up against Sziky then it's close, but, banning someone from TLC etc... due to their skill level is never a good idea.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
i think it's a good thing Scan can play in this. Look back at the original TLS 1-3 and at the results. It was Sziky, Sziky and Sziky and it was never really close, except in the showmatches that he all lost and those weren't close either. With Sziky/Scan playing, we have a chance to see strong finals and great games, I don't wanna take the credit away from other strong players like eOnzErGtrutaCzJuliaMarwinLancerX you name them, but we are going to see a lot of Sziky/Scan i think.
If you look at their history in defiler tours, those games are gonna be interesting. Also Scan didnt play in TLS precisly because he was still banned from TSL and not coz he was korean.
we cant really help that sziky is a level above most foreigners, however I think scan is probably several levels above most foreigners and if you want exciting close games, including scan is not going to achieve that. hes a practice partner with the best players in the world, vs players who regularly take breaks from bw of months or even years. I havent paid attention to recent results in defiler tours or whatever, but I would assume that since scan keeps playing and most foreigners are inactive, the skill gap continues to increase...
not that im saying thats sole cause to ban him from playing in any tournament just because hes "too good", but we had rules in place in the original TLS tournaments that dont make sense to change now in the biggest culminating one
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
On July 18 2015 22:38 Eywa- wrote: I don't think it's bad for Scan to be able to play in tournament given the regulations on who can join. The only suggestion that I would make is that the tournament be double elimination because everyone else is playing for second place. It'd be unfortunate if the person who would otherwise win is on the same side of the bracket as Scan.
As dragon said above, no one is going to beat Scan. Or at least, it's incredibly unlikely.
Yeah, the initial plan was to have it double elimination, but TL's tournament system doesn't support double elimination tournament type so we went with single-elimination. We might change it to double elimination after a few tours after we see how it goes. Also, the prize difference between 1st and 2nd place was lowered to compensate for this.
I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
From a "helping the foreign scene" standpoint, allowing scan to participate is a detriment because it not only creates less entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result, it lessens motivation for foreigners such as myself to come back out of inactivity and practice if they can only realistically get as far in the bracket as they avoid facing scan. If growing the foreign scene is the main priority here then having a korean semi pro/practice partner participate is probably counter productive.
I dont have anything against scan and its good that he streams and posts on TL, but he moved to korea for a reason, to participate in their scene over ours. The first 3 TLS were great tournaments that embodied the spirit of foreign bw to me, so having the championship suddenly include korean sospa players just doesnt make sense
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
From a "helping the foreign scene" standpoint, allowing scan to participate is a detriment because it not only creates less entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result, it lessens motivation for foreigners such as myself to come back out of inactivity and practice if they can only realistically get as far in the bracket as they avoid facing scan. If growing the foreign scene is the main priority here then having a korean semi pro/practice partner participate is probably counter productive.
I dont have anything against scan and its good that he streams and posts on TL, but he moved to korea for a reason, to participate in their scene over ours. The first 3 TLS were great tournaments that embodied the spirit of foreign bw to me, so having the championship suddenly include korean sospa players just doesnt make sense
The point is, even if we were to ban Scan for being "too good", we'd still have Sziky and be left with the same problem. Please re-watch the TLS1/2/3 finals and tell me if those have solved the "entertainment value in one-sided games and a predictable final result" problem.
We tried to make it very clear that this is a foreign BW tournament and it's very unreasonable to say that Scan doesn't fit the spirit of the tournament after he has been a member of the foreign BW scene for years, and contributing one at that (despite his shaky past).
This whole argument you're trying to present is very reminiscent of the one we had during TSL when people argued that IdrA shouldn't be allowed to play because he was in a pro team and practicing with best players in the world. This is what Rekrul had to say about that: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/111160-should-idra-b-allowed-to-play-in-tsl
On July 18 2015 23:42 JieXian wrote: i feel bad for scan but isn't he already in the korean scene
Maybe you can solve the problem with a more even split of the prize money
Yes, but he is also in the foreign BW scene. We did go with a more even split of the prize money in Legacy Cups and likely will do the same for TLS Championship as well.
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
2) As for one sided goes - there has been a year or so without Scan around. It was still very one sided thanks to Sziky. If it wasn't for Sziky, it prolly would be another rather unbeatable player or duo, e.g. eOn vs. trutaCz, we had about half a year of that in Defiler et al. as well.
3) Unlike Scan, Sziky [insert many other foreigners] rarely posts here, on Defiler, netwars, reps.ru or bw.de, no idea about psistorm either. He doesn't nearly participate as much. Granted, the younger Scan of 2011 was a childish moron, nowadays he's really helpful in many ways, e.g. by sharing replays, linking and translating sources and helping with the wiki in parts. I don't mean to talk Sziky down or make him look bad, but you shouldn't forget that Scan is definitely a part of this scene, other than the hundreds of SOSPA guys, who barely manage to speak one word, or show any sign that they care for TL/foreigners.
In the end you simply have to accept that Scan might play, it's not like he confirmed his participations. The only valid reason to tell him to not sign up would be if he caused severe lag conflicts with other players, so that games are literally impossible. Everything else is just odd, because you can't really disguise the fact it'd be an arbitrary (yet understandable) decision.
It might be that I'm biased, because Scan's progress as person has impressed me. I usually hold grudges for a very long time and that boy gave me plenty of reason to support you just for the sake of having him out. But he really did work on it, so that might distort my point of view heavily.
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
I definitely don't think you're overestimating Scan's skill, but I do think you're underestimating Sziky's skill. I don't remember the last time Sziky lost an event that he actually practiced for.
I mean, either way you have a situation where 1st place is nearly pre-determined. Maybe 1 person can beat Sziky when he's practicing, maybe Sziky can beat Scan... Both scenarios improbable.
Gonna be clear like water,Scan in means everyone is playing for second place,it doesnt help us in anything,players that are inactive right now there is no way they could be in beast form to even take a game from him unless he kills two scvs in the start.sziky is till beatable.Scan is not.I also think some players gonna watch oh this guy playing the tourney no even worth train.. just my opinion.Imo just add some semipros too then we could have a very high level tourney :smart:
imo let scan play, hes contributed enough to foreign bw and isn't he technically considered a american-korean? he was also allowed to play in the other TLS, why deny him entry now? anyways thats just my 2 cents
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
tell me exactly in which professional tournament Scan played in which Sziky didnt play? Granted, Scan trains with SOSPA Stars like Zero, but to my knowledge he doesnt play in Sospa events? Or am i missing something here? As for the Chinese scene: Sziky, Eon and tacz participated in the last C-OSL, Sziky did go pretty far putting up good results and had to forfeit a number of games due to lag issues. So where exactly is the difference?
To clarify my point: I don't see why Scan should be treated as "Semi-pro", given the events he plays, coz he doesnt play high caliber events that sziky doesnt and he doesn't belong to a team sziky doesn't belong to. They both play for Minus) if im correct as Minus)little and Minus)tmzos or somerthing.
On July 19 2015 00:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Gonna be clear like water,Scan in means everyone is playing for second place,it doesnt help us in anything,players that are inactive right now there is no way they could be in beast form to even take a game from him unless he kills two scvs in the start.sziky is till beatable.Scan is not.I also think some players gonna watch oh this guy playing the tourney no even worth train.. just my opinion.Imo just add some semipros too then we could have a very high level tourney :smart:
It's Bo1 until the Ro8 in Legacy Cups, anything can happen
Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty ridiculous and it's only happening because everyone seems to think that Scan has some kind of superpowers and is "too good". If Bisu played in foreign BW events for years, participated in the community, made guides for us and translated things for us, we would allow him to play as well. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise.
Exactly, 2pac. It should be motivation to play and practice harder to win. Just seems like the lazy way out to try to get a win by disqualifying him. Just do it the old fashioned way. Good old DT drops and proxy robos.
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
2) As for one sided goes - there has been a year or so without Scan around. It was still very one sided thanks to Sziky. If it wasn't for Sziky, it prolly would be another rather unbeatable player or duo, e.g. eOn vs. trutaCz, we had about half a year of that in Defiler et al. as well.
3) Unlike Scan, Sziky [insert many other foreigners] rarely posts here, on Defiler, netwars, reps.ru or bw.de, no idea about psistorm either. He doesn't nearly participate as much. Granted, the younger Scan of 2011 was a childish moron, nowadays he's really helpful in many ways, e.g. by sharing replays, linking and translating sources and helping with the wiki in parts. I don't mean to talk Sziky down or make him look bad, but you shouldn't forget that Scan is definitely a part of this scene, other than the hundreds of SOSPA guys, who barely manage to speak one word, or show any sign that they care for TL/foreigners.
I think this post sums things up well. Also, as 2pac mentioned, it's BO1 until Ro8. You can try all kinds of possible cheese to try and knock Scan out so it's not like its guaranteed that he makes it to Ro8+.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
I think scan deserves to play, BUT it will not affect the tournaments and scene in a good way. If i was a player it would only kill my passion knowing il not be able to reach not only first place, but also second. If im spectator it will be not very funny to know who are the first two also. One Flash is enough if u know what i mean, even tho Flash got destroyed many times, unlike Sziky. And as i said in the tls announcement thread, if foreign scene was kept alive and these tournaments were held not long after the last tls, things would be very different and scan wouldnt be so much pain in everyone's asses. Players wouldve been on a better level and it was about to go more smooth. Now its like bringing dead man back to life and take him on the ring against one of the current best athletes in the world.
If you make the thournament with double elimination like eywa said, it can make things more interesting. If not, again anything can happen, but it will be harder for the players.
Also if tournaments are held continually it can be set a rule like 3 times winner to miss one tournament, that will add alot interest for the players to continue practicing knowing they will have their big time, also will make the scene more alive and thrilling to watch.
Remember one of the reasons Kespa made proleague best of 5 was the flash dominance, and eventual ace match wouldve guaranteed 2 wins for KT rolster. We should think for that kind of solution, instead of baning Scan from the tournaments forever.
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
tell me exactly in which professional tournament Scan played in which Sziky didnt play? Granted, Scan trains with SOSPA Stars like Zero, but to my knowledge he doesnt play in Sospa events? Or am i missing something here? As for the Chinese scene: Sziky, Eon and tacz participated in the last C-OSL, Sziky did go pretty far putting up good results and had to forfeit a number of games due to lag issues. So where exactly is the difference?
To clarify my point: I don't see why Scan should be treated as "Semi-pro", given the events he plays, coz he doesnt play high caliber events that sziky doesnt and he doesn't belong to a team sziky doesn't belong to. They both play for Minus) if im correct as Minus)little and Minus)tmzos or somerthing.
He moved to korea specifically to play starcraft. Sziky still has a regular life outside of bw and takes breaks from bw occasionally. Scan also participated in at least one of the ssl qualifiers earlier, which sziky didnt because hes not living in korea practicing for korean events. I think he was in a group with guemchi or olympus or something, it was a while ago. So yeah, hes a semi pro.
It's Bo1 until the Ro8 in Legacy Cups, anything can happen
Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty ridiculous and it's only happening because everyone seems to think that Scan has some kind of superpowers and is "too good". If Bisu played in foreign BW events for years, participated in the community, made guides for us and translated things for us, we would allow him to play as well. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise.
Ok, well then I guess the tournament prioritizes the TL part a lot more than the foreign bw part, I thought it was the other way around. I cant really do anything to change it and I respect your point, even though I believe it will harm the tournament(s) in the long run.
I think it absolutely would make sense to ban bisu from playing, because hes not a foreigner and has plenty of high level korean leagues to play in, and by him playing would make the event a bisu vs world event instead of the premier foreigner tournament, which is what the TLS championship will be too if scan plays, it will be less about the top foreigners and more about if anyone can take a game off of the one korean. I dont think I have a right to play in [C+] cap tournaments or [D/D-] team leagues just because I post in the same forums as they do and make helpful strategy posts for the D players who post help threads, the levels are segregated for good reason. I also dont think letting c.ronaldo play in high school or college football/soccer leagues makes sense, whether hes a friend of the school or not.
It appears that the TLS however is not a [foreign bw] cap tournament but a [whoever posts on TL, even pro gamers] cap tournament, despite being advertised as the former. Thats disappointing, but I still hope it succeeds because foreign bw doesnt have much else. I personally am much less excited about it now than I was originally and much less motivated to return to activity and practice hard, now that I know I can only realistically ever get 2nd place, and only if Im on the opposite side of the bracket as scan or any other korean pro who chooses to play. I dont have time to practice 24/7 and neither does any other foreigner, but scan (or bisu etc) does because thats his life. Obviously I cant speak for them, but im fairly certain that many other currently inactive or even active top foreigners will feel the same way, and will also be less inclined to take this tournament seriously anymore.
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
tell me exactly in which professional tournament Scan played in which Sziky didnt play? Granted, Scan trains with SOSPA Stars like Zero, but to my knowledge he doesnt play in Sospa events? Or am i missing something here? As for the Chinese scene: Sziky, Eon and tacz participated in the last C-OSL, Sziky did go pretty far putting up good results and had to forfeit a number of games due to lag issues. So where exactly is the difference?
To clarify my point: I don't see why Scan should be treated as "Semi-pro", given the events he plays, coz he doesnt play high caliber events that sziky doesnt and he doesn't belong to a team sziky doesn't belong to. They both play for Minus) if im correct as Minus)little and Minus)tmzos or somerthing.
He moved to korea specifically to play starcraft. Sziky still has a regular life outside of bw and takes breaks from bw occasionally. Scan also participated in at least one of the ssl qualifiers earlier, which sziky didnt because hes not living in korea practicing for korean events. I think he was in a group with guemchi or olympus or something, it was a while ago. So yeah, hes a semi pro.
It's Bo1 until the Ro8 in Legacy Cups, anything can happen
Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty ridiculous and it's only happening because everyone seems to think that Scan has some kind of superpowers and is "too good". If Bisu played in foreign BW events for years, participated in the community, made guides for us and translated things for us, we would allow him to play as well. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise.
Ok, well then I guess the tournament prioritizes the TL part a lot more than the foreign bw part, I thought it was the other way around. I cant really do anything to change it and I respect your point, even though I believe it will harm the tournament(s) in the long run.
I think it absolutely would make sense to ban bisu from playing, because hes not a foreigner and has plenty of high level korean leagues to play in, and by him playing would make the event a bisu vs world event instead of the premier foreigner tournament, which is what the TLS championship will be too if scan plays, it will be less about the top foreigners and more about if anyone can take a game off of the one korean. I dont think I have a right to play in [C+] cap tournaments or [D/D-] team leagues just because I post in the same forums as they do and make helpful strategy posts for the D players who post help threads, the levels are segregated for good reason. I also dont think letting c.ronaldo play in high school or college football/soccer leagues makes sense, whether hes a friend of the school or not.
It appears that the TLS however is not a [foreign bw] cap tournament but a [whoever posts on TL, even pro gamers] cap tournament, despite being advertised as the former. Thats disappointing, but I still hope it succeeds because foreign bw doesnt have much else. I personally am much less excited about it now than I was originally and much less motivated to return to activity and practice hard, now that I know I can only realistically ever get 2nd place, and only if Im on the opposite side of the bracket as scan or any other korean pro who chooses to play. I dont have time to practice 24/7 and neither does any other foreigner, but scan (or bisu etc) does because thats his life. Obviously I cant speak for them, but im fairly certain that many other currently inactive or even active top foreigners will feel the same way, and will also be less inclined to take this tournament seriously anymore.
You're being overly dramatic and purposefully misrepresenting our rules. Don't do that.
TL has a lot of korean members that have been part of the foreign BW scene for years (even though most of them are inactive now) and no one has batted an eye at them playing because they're not as good as Scan.
Seriously, just reread this thread and replace IdrA with Scan (focus on the Rekruls posts).
Also, you keep repeating how Scan is playing korean pro leagues and whatnot when that is completely not true (at least yet). If he becomes a regular player in Korean leagues we might revise our rule. Until then, I would suggest you start practicing instead of posting here how it's not fair to allow too good players.
We can't help that Sziky is a level above most foreigners, but we can help that Scan is by banning him? Doesn't really make sense.
However, I understand your (and others) concerns, but that's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Get people motivated enough to practice seriously for this (something that was lacking in TLS1/2/3 imo), so the consequence of that is to increase both the skill level of the foreigners and the activity of the foreign BW scene in general. If we just start banning players for arbitrary reasons, I feel it will diminish quality of the tournament. We have plans to continue supporting the foreign BW scene long after the TLS Championship, so this point about increasing the activity and motivation of foreign BW players is very important for us.
Also, some people might prefer that Scan is in the tournament, because they get extra motivated when they know there's a "big boss" at the end to beat.
Im not suggesting to ban anyone for arbitrary reasons, im suggesting ban a korean playing in the korean and chinese professional scenes from playing in a foreigner tournament. If we allow scan to play we might as well allow every other korean if they can make a TL account.
Also its not really relevant to the discussion of applicable rules, but the "big boss" gives more motivation if you know you might actually have a chance of competing with said boss after putting in the practice, rather than just losing anyway to someone who plays 24/7 with the best players in the world. For me at least, and i presume many other foreigners, Sziky was the final boss which was good because hes really good but not unbeatable, and having an unbeatable player just makes things boring. Maybe im overestimating scans skill level, having being inactive, but I think after choosing to move to korea and participate in professional leagues there as well as in china, scan demonstrated that he was definitely no longer a recreational player, he crossed the line to professional or semi pro bw or whatever you call it these days. Since the TLS is a tournament that is distinctly separated from the korean and chinese scenes, and scan is participating in both of those scenes, then he must no longer be eligible as far as I can tell.
tell me exactly in which professional tournament Scan played in which Sziky didnt play? Granted, Scan trains with SOSPA Stars like Zero, but to my knowledge he doesnt play in Sospa events? Or am i missing something here? As for the Chinese scene: Sziky, Eon and tacz participated in the last C-OSL, Sziky did go pretty far putting up good results and had to forfeit a number of games due to lag issues. So where exactly is the difference?
To clarify my point: I don't see why Scan should be treated as "Semi-pro", given the events he plays, coz he doesnt play high caliber events that sziky doesnt and he doesn't belong to a team sziky doesn't belong to. They both play for Minus) if im correct as Minus)little and Minus)tmzos or somerthing.
He moved to korea specifically to play starcraft. Sziky still has a regular life outside of bw and takes breaks from bw occasionally. Scan also participated in at least one of the ssl qualifiers earlier, which sziky didnt because hes not living in korea practicing for korean events. I think he was in a group with guemchi or olympus or something, it was a while ago. So yeah, hes a semi pro.
It's Bo1 until the Ro8 in Legacy Cups, anything can happen
Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty ridiculous and it's only happening because everyone seems to think that Scan has some kind of superpowers and is "too good". If Bisu played in foreign BW events for years, participated in the community, made guides for us and translated things for us, we would allow him to play as well. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise.
Ok, well then I guess the tournament prioritizes the TL part a lot more than the foreign bw part, I thought it was the other way around. I cant really do anything to change it and I respect your point, even though I believe it will harm the tournament(s) in the long run.
I think it absolutely would make sense to ban bisu from playing, because hes not a foreigner and has plenty of high level korean leagues to play in, and by him playing would make the event a bisu vs world event instead of the premier foreigner tournament, which is what the TLS championship will be too if scan plays, it will be less about the top foreigners and more about if anyone can take a game off of the one korean. I dont think I have a right to play in [C+] cap tournaments or [D/D-] team leagues just because I post in the same forums as they do and make helpful strategy posts for the D players who post help threads, the levels are segregated for good reason. I also dont think letting c.ronaldo play in high school or college football/soccer leagues makes sense, whether hes a friend of the school or not.
It appears that the TLS however is not a [foreign bw] cap tournament but a [whoever posts on TL, even pro gamers] cap tournament, despite being advertised as the former. Thats disappointing, but I still hope it succeeds because foreign bw doesnt have much else. I personally am much less excited about it now than I was originally and much less motivated to return to activity and practice hard, now that I know I can only realistically ever get 2nd place, and only if Im on the opposite side of the bracket as scan or any other korean pro who chooses to play. I dont have time to practice 24/7 and neither does any other foreigner, but scan (or bisu etc) does because thats his life. Obviously I cant speak for them, but im fairly certain that many other currently inactive or even active top foreigners will feel the same way, and will also be less inclined to take this tournament seriously anymore.
You talk like you know about my life. For you to know, I'm still attending the school in the U.S. with my F-1 visa status. Even i'm in Korea, I'm still taking online class during the summer which is 2 times faster pace compare to regular season. Do you really think I play 24/7? What a weird prejudice and racist to Korean..
=========================== "He moved to korea specifically to play starcraft. Sziky still has a regular life outside of bw and takes breaks from bw occasionally. Scan also participated in at least one of the ssl qualifiers earlier, which sziky didnt because hes not living in korea practicing for korean events. I think he was in a group with guemchi or olympus or something, it was a while ago. So yeah, hes a semi pro."
when you mentioned, "He moved to korea specifically to play starcraft." I just stopped reading.. You really don't know anything.. You really don't..
@FyRe_DragOn Believe me, we thought long and hard on the rules for TLC. We've been preparing to reveal everything for months now and this was something that we constantly discussed before deciding on the current status quo.
@ scan, tell me how it is then? You move to korea, play in pro leagues and stream bw all the time, practicing with pro gamers. Seems that way to me. Im sorry if ive made some false assumptions. Telling me that im racist however is a bit much lol. I said you play 24/7 because I see your stream up every time I visit TL, and you obviously have a high level of skill that requires a lot of practice time to achieve and maintain.
If you arnt attempting to go fulltime bw in korea thats my mistake then, and I guess I have no objection to you participating in the TLC and TLS if you choose to do so. GL
On July 19 2015 11:43 amazingxkcd wrote: all i just want to say is just man up and get good kids
you can man up all what u want the result will be the same. no long ago Scan was asking money to allow you to watch his practise games vs zero,i doubt zero will waste a time with some low level terran to train for SSL,yah
Scan already played in sonic leagues,someone forgot he won movie and some others ?
the last sonic event scan joined was srt17 which is 2 years ago (advance out of a group but forfeited). he did not join any recent ssl qualifiers.
Other than fish ladder Scan is mostly active in the foreign and chinese scene (got kicked out of chinese osl for "lag" like eon and played some 2v2 events also)
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
I love the map, but as I posted earlier (which got lost in the argument about Scan playing which sounds eerily familiar to the argument about Idra playing in TSL2), it has a pretty big positional advantage. The top base mines faster than the right base, and I don't think this has ever been fixed, since workers mine minerals faster horizontally rather than vertically. There were some great games in WCG on this map, but it was always understood that the map wasn't exactly fair. I'm just curious as to if this was known about and already discussed. I'm all for seeing older maps as they allow for completely different playstyles, but when you play a game on Paranoid Android and spawn at 1 and know you're already behind, it kinda sucks.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
map issue
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that little people discuss Scan and not other issues with this tournament. Since this is going to be weekly, I don't quite get why you need a Bo1 for a SE tournament only. It'll take some time to organize, sure, but it'll be quick enough. I seriously doubt that in the long run more than 40 people will sign up in total.
As for old map goes, PA seems like a questionable pick, not only because of the minerals, but also because it seems really awkward to play with modern strategies. There are other maps you could try, for example R-Point, Arcadia 2 or something really wacky like Bifrost.
Lets not make the players quit because of the scan skill, it will kill the foreign bw even more. Practicing with the current best players is a huge advantage. Being stubborn over something that most of the participants doesnt want, will end up ruining the whole thing. I think players should have the final word, because no players means no event, or you can make a poll and see what the community thinks first.
On July 19 2015 11:43 amazingxkcd wrote: all i just want to say is just man up and get good kids
you can man up all what u want the result will be the same. no long ago Scan was asking money to allow you to watch his practise games vs zero,i doubt zero will waste a time with some low level terran to train for SSL,yah
Scan already played in sonic leagues,someone forgot he won movie and some others ?
Why are you lying to make my image ugly? "Scan was asking money..." Skype chatlog with other person asked.
[2015-07-10 오전 4:04:51] Celetuiw: i read on TL you are a practice partner for some quite good ex pro's. Like Zero for example? [2015-07-10 오전 4:19:18] Celetuiw: any chance you can share some of those replays with ICCup? :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:35] BJ스캔: uh [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:50] BJ스캔: when SSL is over, maybe. [2015-07-10 오전 4:54:51] Celetuiw: okay. contact me then :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:55:20] Celetuiw: those would be some very sweet replays. The ICC team would be very thankful. But i understand if you can't do it
This is why I decided to delete you on Skype contact list.
On July 19 2015 11:43 amazingxkcd wrote: all i just want to say is just man up and get good kids
you can man up all what u want the result will be the same. no long ago Scan was asking money to allow you to watch his practise games vs zero,i doubt zero will waste a time with some low level terran to train for SSL,yah
Scan already played in sonic leagues,someone forgot he won movie and some others ?
Why are you lying to make my image ugly? "Scan was asking money..." Skype chatlog with other person asked.
[2015-07-10 오전 4:04:51] Celetuiw: i read on TL you are a practice partner for some quite good ex pro's. Like Zero for example? [2015-07-10 오전 4:19:18] Celetuiw: any chance you can share some of those replays with ICCup? :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:35] BJ스캔: uh [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:50] BJ스캔: when SSL is over, maybe. [2015-07-10 오전 4:54:51] Celetuiw: okay. contact me then :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:55:20] Celetuiw: those would be some very sweet replays. The ICC team would be very thankful. But i understand if you can't do it
This is why I decided to delete you on Skype contact list.
dont try to lie bro,u come to defiler.ru and asked for money to allow us to watch ur games vs zero YES OR NO ?,and u better start to say yes cuz i have more than 15 people that can confirm this,we laugh at you cuz we can watch pro vs pros for free,useless to pay you vs zero...
and u deleted me from skype cuz i told you to stop making higher ranks on fish playing foreigners and play some good koreans,:smart: but is natural in you to lie i think ^_^
ur image is already damaged when u cheated in TSL 2 ,dont u remember ?well im here to remember you dont worry.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
I love the map, but as I posted earlier (which got lost in the argument about Scan playing which sounds eerily familiar to the argument about Idra playing in TSL2), it has a pretty big positional advantage. The top base mines faster than the right base, and I don't think this has ever been fixed, since workers mine minerals faster horizontally rather than vertically. There were some great games in WCG on this map, but it was always understood that the map wasn't exactly fair. I'm just curious as to if this was known about and already discussed. I'm all for seeing older maps as they allow for completely different playstyles, but when you play a game on Paranoid Android and spawn at 1 and know you're already behind, it kinda sucks.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
map issue
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that little people discuss Scan and not other issues with this tournament. Since this is going to be weekly, I don't quite get why you need a Bo1 for a SE tournament only. It'll take some time to organize, sure, but it'll be quick enough. I seriously doubt that in the long run more than 40 people will sign up in total.
As for old map goes, PA seems like a questionable pick, not only because of the minerals, but also because it seems really awkward to play with modern strategies. There are other maps you could try, for example R-Point, Arcadia 2 or something really wacky like Bifrost.
These are good suggestions and something that we're willing to change as we go along.
@2pac Race stats have nothing to do with positional imbalance. @scan You tried to sell your replays and bm eon for telling facts? Your image is self owned by your behaviour and the abuse in the previous TLS.
Guess thats the necessary contribution to the community which compensate the other facts.
On July 19 2015 11:43 amazingxkcd wrote: all i just want to say is just man up and get good kids
you can man up all what u want the result will be the same. no long ago Scan was asking money to allow you to watch his practise games vs zero,i doubt zero will waste a time with some low level terran to train for SSL,yah
Scan already played in sonic leagues,someone forgot he won movie and some others ?
Why are you lying to make my image ugly? "Scan was asking money..." Skype chatlog with other person asked.
[2015-07-10 오전 4:04:51] Celetuiw: i read on TL you are a practice partner for some quite good ex pro's. Like Zero for example? [2015-07-10 오전 4:19:18] Celetuiw: any chance you can share some of those replays with ICCup? :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:35] BJ스캔: uh [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:50] BJ스캔: when SSL is over, maybe. [2015-07-10 오전 4:54:51] Celetuiw: okay. contact me then :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:55:20] Celetuiw: those would be some very sweet replays. The ICC team would be very thankful. But i understand if you can't do it
This is why I decided to delete you on Skype contact list.
dont try to lie bro,u come to defiler.ru and asked for money to allow us to watch ur games vs zero YES OR NO ?,and u better start to say yes cuz i have more than 15 people that can confirm this,we laugh at you cuz we can watch pro vs pros for free,useless to pay you vs zero...
and u deleted me from skype cuz i told you to stop making higher ranks on fish playing foreigners and play some good koreans,:smart: but is natural in you to lie i think ^_^
ur image is already damaged when u cheated in TSL 2 ,dont u remember ?well im here to remember you dont worry.
You only know how to annoy and insult me. Zero called and searched me where I was because he wanted to practice with me. Majority side of defiler chatting users are troll. If I've asked money, it's joke anyways. Why? Zero and I wouldn't play and let random to observe his practice games. I also cannot stream the practice games. I've found some Russians record my stream and then post on YouTube. What kind of thoughts do you have in your brain? Who would want to let observer slots that we do not know? If trutacz, marwin or any other users who are close and showed good manner to me asked to watch, then I would let them. However, I cannot stream for you guys. You guys spread things everywhere. Ask anyone a general question about this. Who would let random users to watch his practice match that is quite important and big money is involved?
Btw, you always acted like a child in iFU skype group chat also. Talking trash to me all the time. I also can assume that I've earned more credits (trust) than you, eonzerg. Your image is pretty sneaky bm user to me. Oh yeah, you probably would like to edit, but too late. You said you told me to stop playing against newbs to get higher rank. So you are indirectly mentioning that I am bad.
Bring facts if you would like to argue. Brush your prejudice on the other side like a man and talk.
On July 19 2015 11:43 amazingxkcd wrote: all i just want to say is just man up and get good kids
you can man up all what u want the result will be the same. no long ago Scan was asking money to allow you to watch his practise games vs zero,i doubt zero will waste a time with some low level terran to train for SSL,yah
Scan already played in sonic leagues,someone forgot he won movie and some others ?
Why are you lying to make my image ugly? "Scan was asking money..." Skype chatlog with other person asked.
[2015-07-10 오전 4:04:51] Celetuiw: i read on TL you are a practice partner for some quite good ex pro's. Like Zero for example? [2015-07-10 오전 4:19:18] Celetuiw: any chance you can share some of those replays with ICCup? :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:35] BJ스캔: uh [2015-07-10 오전 4:53:50] BJ스캔: when SSL is over, maybe. [2015-07-10 오전 4:54:51] Celetuiw: okay. contact me then :> [2015-07-10 오전 4:55:20] Celetuiw: those would be some very sweet replays. The ICC team would be very thankful. But i understand if you can't do it
This is why I decided to delete you on Skype contact list.
dont try to lie bro,u come to defiler.ru and asked for money to allow us to watch ur games vs zero YES OR NO ?,and u better start to say yes cuz i have more than 15 people that can confirm this,we laugh at you cuz we can watch pro vs pros for free,useless to pay you vs zero...
and u deleted me from skype cuz i told you to stop making higher ranks on fish playing foreigners and play some good koreans,:smart: but is natural in you to lie i think ^_^
ur image is already damaged when u cheated in TSL 2 ,dont u remember ?well im here to remember you dont worry.
You only know insulting me. Simple as that. Majority side of defiler chatting users are troll. If I've asked money, it's joke anyways. Why? Zero and I wouldn't play and let random to observe his practice games. I also cannot stream the practice games. I've found some Russians record my stream and then post on YouTube. What kind of thoughts do you have in your brain? Who would want to let observer slots that we do not know? If trutacz, marwin or any other users who are close and showed good manner to me asked to watch, then I would let them. However, I cannot stream for you guys. You guys spread things everywhere. Ask anyone a general question about this. Who would let random users to watch his practice match that is quite important and big money is involved?
Btw, you always acted like a child in iFU skype group chat also. Talking trash to me all the time. I also can assume that I've earned more credits (trust) than you, eonzerg. Your image is pretty sneaky bm user to me.
Btw scan u didnt get the point,i dont care what you do, i pointed it to people see with who u train and the level you re compared to ours,u shouldnt be playing in this class of level but sonic qualifiers or fish leagues.But is all about the money and is free money to you i guess
On July 19 2015 19:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Btw scan u didnt get the point,i dont care what you do, i pointed it to people see with who u train and the level you re compared to ours,u shouldnt be playing in this class of level but sonic qualifiers or fish leagues.But is all about the money and is free money to you i guess
Last reply to your words, fish leagues are for the channel list (showing how strong their teams are) and team clan's icon. Sonic's starleagues are offline competition. I don't have time, and time does not match to my life. You should stick with your words. "Stop playing foreigners to get higher rank..." I play with anyone who messages me in ladder. "We watch pro vs pro for free" Nope. Someone pays them to play most of the time on Afreeca. You clearly do not know the Korean culture well including afreeca community's flow.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
I love the map, but as I posted earlier (which got lost in the argument about Scan playing which sounds eerily familiar to the argument about Idra playing in TSL2), it has a pretty big positional advantage. The top base mines faster than the right base, and I don't think this has ever been fixed, since workers mine minerals faster horizontally rather than vertically. There were some great games in WCG on this map, but it was always understood that the map wasn't exactly fair. I'm just curious as to if this was known about and already discussed. I'm all for seeing older maps as they allow for completely different playstyles, but when you play a game on Paranoid Android and spawn at 1 and know you're already behind, it kinda sucks.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
map issue
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that little people discuss Scan and not other issues with this tournament. Since this is going to be weekly, I don't quite get why you need a Bo1 for a SE tournament only. It'll take some time to organize, sure, but it'll be quick enough. I seriously doubt that in the long run more than 40 people will sign up in total.
As for old map goes, PA seems like a questionable pick, not only because of the minerals, but also because it seems really awkward to play with modern strategies. There are other maps you could try, for example R-Point, Arcadia 2 or something really wacky like Bifrost.
These are good suggestions and something that we're willing to change as we go along.
However, we'll investigate if the mineral difference is enough to make a difference and either fix the map or change it altogether.
Yeah, these numbers are like eight years old. Eon mentioned the awkward Natural Expansion, which seems to favour Z over any race on this map, since it's rather hard to Fast Expand there. I'm not a top level player, but that's the feature that catches the eye. Also, keep in mind that the WCG numbers do not neccessarily say much for such a small observation. Half of the games were played between really good players and rather weak players. There's not much knowledge to be gained if you see Stork walking over Westside for instance.
i have others ideas in my head about paranoid how to fix it a bit,and i was thinking in the case of zvt the mains are two close that 2hatch muta is very strong it will be nice to change the mineral location a bit far maybe ? .
im in for Bifrost but the new version that ex progamers are playing right now with gaz in the back and the hole blocked by some generator,otherwise this map is really bad in my eyes.
i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate. personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever.
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency. As you said scan was "part of foreigner bw" only because yoda dont give a f.. and let korean play DT tours. From other tours like TSL "ALL" koreans were banned. Foreigner scene for foreigners.
Scan played in the original TSL.
He actually played in both TSLs and has a thread open in the TL strategy section.
On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote: i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate. personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever.
Yeah, huge break was letdown for us as well; we're trying to make it right now.
And I appreciate your post. That's exactly the kind of discussion we had in the staff forums and came to the very similar conclusion.
On July 19 2015 18:51 vanatir wrote: @2pac Race stats have nothing to do with positional imbalance. @scan You tried to sell your replays and bm eon for telling facts? Your image is self owned by your behaviour and the abuse in the previous TLS.
Guess thats the necessary contribution to the community which compensate the other facts.
If you still think my behavior stays the same as before, then I'll work on myself more.
It is very common to sell replays. Ask other Korean streamers. Do you really think top sc streamers on afreeca would give replays easily when some random people that they had rarely contacted each other?
No. They at least sent some balloons to streamers to get it. I am not a afreeca streamer, but I do this way because I think it is right that not giving away replays for free due to the fact that players are revealing their playstyles, specific build orders, army units positioning, and etc. People wanted the whole reppack. Then my reppack has a value. A lot of mechanical skills and build orders are in it.
On July 19 2015 19:46 Rekrul wrote: the fear of scan in this thread is impressive
im rooting for him :D
He can't really lose, I'm pretty sure the skill gap between Scan and the rest today is far bigger than Idra vs the rest from TSL. Also, the scene is far less active and probably far less exciting and motivating for players (as has been brought to light by many top level players in this thread).
You should probably hope for something less likely and more encompassing. Like:
"I am rooting for Scan to win by a small margin"
~ Therefore you're still rooting for him, but you're also rooting for the outraged players to be proved wrong.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
I love the map, but as I posted earlier (which got lost in the argument about Scan playing which sounds eerily familiar to the argument about Idra playing in TSL2), it has a pretty big positional advantage. The top base mines faster than the right base, and I don't think this has ever been fixed, since workers mine minerals faster horizontally rather than vertically. There were some great games in WCG on this map, but it was always understood that the map wasn't exactly fair. I'm just curious as to if this was known about and already discussed. I'm all for seeing older maps as they allow for completely different playstyles, but when you play a game on Paranoid Android and spawn at 1 and know you're already behind, it kinda sucks.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
map issue
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that little people discuss Scan and not other issues with this tournament. Since this is going to be weekly, I don't quite get why you need a Bo1 for a SE tournament only. It'll take some time to organize, sure, but it'll be quick enough. I seriously doubt that in the long run more than 40 people will sign up in total.
As for old map goes, PA seems like a questionable pick, not only because of the minerals, but also because it seems really awkward to play with modern strategies. There are other maps you could try, for example R-Point, Arcadia 2 or something really wacky like Bifrost.
These are good suggestions and something that we're willing to change as we go along.
However, we'll investigate if the mineral difference is enough to make a difference and either fix the map or change it altogether.
Race stats are irrelevant as this is a positional advantage issue. I could easily be overestimating the advantage, but any advantage that a player gets from spawning in a certain position, regardless how big, is a bad thing. It could probably easily be fixed by changing the layout of the 1 o'clock base so that the minerals are on the left side, so that each player still has easy access to the other player's mineral line via air.
Eonzerg mentioned changing the natural, but honestly I'd love for the rest of the map to stay as it is. Current playstyles don't work too well on older maps, and I think it'd be better to throw in different maps like Paranoid Android where a Protoss can't easily FE but a 1 Gate tech or 2 Gate build work perfectly fine. Or where a Zerg can't easily grab a natural that has a main right behind it, basically grabbing two bases at once. Sometimes I like to go back and watch some of those old WCG games, and there were some crazy scenarios (example: + Show Spoiler +
) that occurred, and IMO those make for the best games. Fighting Spirit, Match Point, and Circuit Breaker are all very standard maps, it's cool to throw in a curve ball, in my opinion at least. The positional advantage is the only thing I worry about.
Edit: Also I haven't actually said it but thanks to everyone involved for hosting this tournament. I thought I had completely quit PC gaming but seeing this makes me wanna start playing BW again, and the temptation is quite big.
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
I love the map, but as I posted earlier (which got lost in the argument about Scan playing which sounds eerily familiar to the argument about Idra playing in TSL2), it has a pretty big positional advantage. The top base mines faster than the right base, and I don't think this has ever been fixed, since workers mine minerals faster horizontally rather than vertically. There were some great games in WCG on this map, but it was always understood that the map wasn't exactly fair. I'm just curious as to if this was known about and already discussed. I'm all for seeing older maps as they allow for completely different playstyles, but when you play a game on Paranoid Android and spawn at 1 and know you're already behind, it kinda sucks.
On July 19 2015 17:41 GeckoXp wrote:
On July 19 2015 16:55 GoShox wrote:
On July 19 2015 13:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Paranoid Android in the map pool? I approve
map issue
Yeah, I'm kinda surprised that little people discuss Scan and not other issues with this tournament. Since this is going to be weekly, I don't quite get why you need a Bo1 for a SE tournament only. It'll take some time to organize, sure, but it'll be quick enough. I seriously doubt that in the long run more than 40 people will sign up in total.
As for old map goes, PA seems like a questionable pick, not only because of the minerals, but also because it seems really awkward to play with modern strategies. There are other maps you could try, for example R-Point, Arcadia 2 or something really wacky like Bifrost.
These are good suggestions and something that we're willing to change as we go along.
However, we'll investigate if the mineral difference is enough to make a difference and either fix the map or change it altogether.
Race stats are irrelevant as this is a positional advantage issue. I could easily be overestimating the advantage, but any advantage that a player gets from spawning in a certain position, regardless how big, is a bad thing. It could probably easily be fixed by changing the layout of the 1 o'clock base so that the minerals are on the left side, so that each player still has easy access to the other player's mineral line via air.
Eonzerg mentioned changing the natural, but honestly I'd love for the rest of the map to stay as it is. Current playstyles don't work too well on older maps, and I think it'd be better to throw in different maps like Paranoid Android where a Protoss can't easily FE but a 1 Gate tech or 2 Gate build work perfectly fine. Or where a Zerg can't easily grab a natural that has a main right behind it, basically grabbing two bases at once. Sometimes I like to go back and watch some of those old WCG games, and there were some crazy scenarios (example: + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40XQGVV2df4
) that occurred, and IMO those make for the best games. Fighting Spirit, Match Point, and Circuit Breaker are all very standard maps, it's cool to throw in a curve ball, in my opinion at least. The positional advantage is the only thing I worry about.
Edit: Also I haven't actually said it but thanks to everyone involved for hosting this tournament. I thought I had completely quit PC gaming but seeing this makes me wanna start playing BW again, and the temptation is quite big.
Thanks for the post. That's exactly the reason why we included PA in the map pool (besides the sponsor expressing his wishes to see a WCG map in it ^^). I think it's great to have a one or two maps that requires different playstyles instead of always the same standard builds. Paranoid Android was probably my favorite WCG map, so I'm curious to see what kind of games we get on it nowadays.
And yeah, positional advantage will get investigated and fixed if necessary.
Looking forward to the sick games on all the maps, I hope the cups inspire some preparation!
On July 19 2015 19:46 Rekrul wrote: the fear of scan in this thread is impressive
im rooting for him :D
Definitely impressive, but who knows the outcome :D , like with Nony in TLS2 my bracket will be one of the top 3 (yes)
As for Paranoid Android, please work on the positional balance, if you can get Freakling to take a look at it for you, you'll get positional balance beyond anything the koreans ever provided even with a paid group of mapmakers!
Also Draw is going to beat Sziky, called it first (bandit)
Very good news! I might come around for those from time to time and the beginning of 2016 should bring some of that foreign BW epicness that was kind of lost lately
On July 21 2015 03:46 GGzerG wrote: I was told by a little bird that Telecom the almighty will be practicing BW again to play in this.
Although he thinks the rules make no sense. "No Korean / chinese players" , "BW Foreign Scene"
*A wild scan has appeared*
gg
Firstly, ROFL!!! And second, i actually took the time to read most of the comments below this thread and i completely side with all the arguments that are against Scan playing in the big tournament. I hold nothing personal against him nor i disrespect his flawless skill in this game, but what i do know is that he is probably the top semi-pro korean player in the scene for a good time now. I understand that he has been helping and he has been active in TL and overall the foreigner scene, but not for one second i have ever considered him a foreigner player. From what i know he grew up in Korea, he grew up with the Korean scene and THEN he moved outside of it for a while and has managed to learn english on a decent level hence started participating in foreign events. But none one bit anyone of you can convince me to believe that he can pass for a foreigner just because he learned the global language and lived a few years in another country. If that is so, then the term "foreigner" loses its meaning and value in our community.
PS I just want to add that the organisers and all involved in these tournaments have the full right to do whatever they want, but if they want to truly satisfy the community it will be good if we are given the option to have a vote on controversies as this one. Peace and love ^_^
Rus_Brain is the king BW sponsor here, so we must be all thankful to him and have that in mind
My opinion on the korean/foreigner issue is that however anyone tries to slice it, Scan is a korean. In my eyes, this makes him and any other korean/chinese unsuitable for any bw event/league or anything that pretends to be for the so called foreigners. Skill level is relevant. However the more important thing for me is basically this:
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency.
and most importantly - especially against a terran. This handicaps all zergs against him in a TvZ match severely. I hope readers are competent enough and I don't have to reason the content of the last sentence. Zergs happen to have ranked the highest in the last TLS events so far and this, at least in my eyes, is anything but a support for the foreign bw scene. I believe that is the case in PvT as well, but I don't feel competent enough to be as sure for PvT as I am for ZvT.
In reality, playing in fish for practice is the best practice a foreigner player can nowadays get given how inactive the scene is. IMO The practice in slight lag on high latency is worth when a foreigner player prepares for a foreigner tournament as many more players become inactive again in the later stages of the tournament. However I refuse to suffer against korean terrans in a tournament that pretends to be for foreigners. To the naked eye slight lag on high latency is nothing, but in reality I think is more than enough to change the odds of the players significantly. Just don't call it a "foreigner" tournament and allow all koreans to play. Call it Rus_Brain Cup or something.
In the end Rus_brain is the king and he can have large influence over the decision at least for the first 1-2 cups. Imho: allow all koreans to play or make it a true foreigner event/series.
Scan was a participant in previous TL starleague events. Nobody had a problem with him being Korean back then. Maybe because everyone was training hard and Scan wasn't as good as he is now, but who's fault is that? Scan kept playing and improving his skills while everyone else got lazy or tired of the game. You guys should've known there was gonna be more tournaments to play in, you just decided there was more important things in life. That's fine, but you shouldn't be punishing the people who still find time to play some games every week and stay in shape.
On July 21 2015 05:45 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Zergs happen to have ranked the highest in the last TLS events so far and this, at least in my eyes, is anything but a support for the foreign bw scene.
technics u are right but scan not have lag. I'm still not decided but I am inclined in that direction ''However I refuse to suffer against korean terrans in a tournament'' One thing is a fact last 2 years or more not have tournament this is maybe start again and again 2 years nothing :D(hope no) whos said go practice and other cleverness can said too for scan ( whos can play ssl, afrreeca stream and all korean events if It would be good. Foreigners ? :D impossible t.t .
shinrei and others people add we 1000 dollar one mounth and we not tired and lazy for practice.(my Opinion :D ) Why do I say this? see scan how much money take or see me and all others foreign (and understand why he ..) or go see u how can take my level. I'll wait :D not only say. i can say too scan go practice for ssl u have chance(ukorean) I write stupid again although this is my opinion(just honest)
On July 21 2015 06:48 sas.Sziky wrote: technics u are right but scan not have lag. I'm still not decided but I am inclined in that direction ''However I refuse to suffer against korean terrans in a tournament'' One thing is a fact last 2 years or more not have tournament this is maybe start again and again 2 years nothing :D(hope no) whos said go practice and other cleverness can said too for scan ( whos can play ssl, afrreeca stream and all korean events if It would be good. Foreigners ? :D impossible t.t .
shinrei and others people add we 1000 dollar one mounth and we not tired and lazy for practice.(my Opinion :D ) Why do I say this? see scan how much money take or see me and all others foreign (and understand why he ..) or go see u how can take my level. I'll wait :D not only say. i can say too scan go practice for ssl u have chance(ukorean) I write stupid again although this is my opinion(just honest)
This is honestly the best post in the thread, even with the broken English. Thank you for posting it Sziky!
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
And yeah, 1000 dollars a month would be a good motivation, but $100 a week is not that bad either imo. We really hope and there's a good chance that we won't stop with BW events after TLS Championship again for 2 years as you say ^^.
Also Technics, your concerns about lagg issues are valid, but that goes the same for all the players, not just one particular player...
On July 21 2015 05:45 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Rus_Brain is the king BW sponsor here, so we must be all thankful to him and have that in mind
My opinion on the korean/foreigner issue is that however anyone tries to slice it, Scan is a korean. In my eyes, this makes him and any other korean/chinese unsuitable for any bw event/league or anything that pretends to be for the so called foreigners. Skill level is relevant. However the more important thing for me is basically this:
On July 18 2015 21:39 1sh2sh3sh wrote: No one wants to play vs korean with extra/high latency.
and most importantly - especially against a terran. This handicaps all zergs against him in a TvZ match severely. I hope readers are competent enough and I don't have to reason the content of the last sentence. Zergs happen to have ranked the highest in the last TLS events so far and this, at least in my eyes, is anything but a support for the foreign bw scene. I believe that is the case in PvT as well, but I don't feel competent enough to be as sure for PvT as I am for ZvT.
In reality, playing in fish for practice is the best practice a foreigner player can nowadays get given how inactive the scene is. IMO The practice in slight lag on high latency is worth when a foreigner player prepares for a foreigner tournament as many more players become inactive again in the later stages of the tournament. However I refuse to suffer against korean terrans in a tournament that pretends to be for foreigners. To the naked eye slight lag on high latency is nothing, but in reality I think is more than enough to change the odds of the players significantly. Just don't call it a "foreigner" tournament and allow all koreans to play. Call it Rus_Brain Cup or something.
In the end Rus_brain is the king and he can have large influence over the decision at least for the first 1-2 cups. Imho: allow all koreans to play or make it a true foreigner event/series.
Speaking of lag and latency changes, I am able to play on low lat with most of the foreigners(No Peru, TY!).
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
That was two years ago and he played it from the US. But point taken.
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You forgot ZhanHun and Fengzi. They also played.
ok? I dont think they should be playing in foreigner events either, as they are playing in both chinese and korean pro scenes. And also live in China
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You forgot ZhanHun and Fengzi. They also played.
ok? I dont think they should be playing in foreigner events either, as they are playing in both chinese and korean pro scenes. And also live in China
sziky eon and tacz played in C-OSL too. exclude them too? if you call the chinese scene a "pro scene" and thus infer the chinese are pro's you would have to argue that those three shouldn't play too. I don't think that's what you're trying to argue here, so explain to me where the difference is.
€: Sziky got knocked out in the quarterfinals, so he went pretty deep. Oh and by no other that Modesty, a progamer.
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You forgot ZhanHun and Fengzi. They also played.
ok? I dont think they should be playing in foreigner events either, as they are playing in both chinese and korean pro scenes. And also live in China
sziky eon and tacz played in C-OSL too. exclude them too? if you call the chinese scene a "pro scene" and thus infer the chinese are pro's you would have to argue that those three shouldn't play too. I don't think that's what you're trying to argue here, so explain to me where the difference is.
€: Sziky got knocked out in the quarterfinals, so he went pretty deep. Oh and by no other that Modesty, a progamer.
The difference is the C-OSL accepts foreigners because they dont care, and invites koreans afaik. Foreigners they probably dont consider a threat, but I dont think they want every korean pro joining and stomping all over their tournaments, but they allow some to join for publicity. I could be wrong but thats how they do it to my knowledge. Also they have a way bigger scene and can afford to do stuff like that.
Foreigner events have traditionally banned koreans and chinese and Im saying id rather keep it that way. We only have on average like one big tournament a year so having koreans and chinese play is a blow to the foreign scene, inactive as it is.
lol the chinese arent any much better than the foreigners. their best players are not as good as top koreans and they have lives outside too. in fact they have mostly been concentrating on 2v2 these days. so dont spew misconceptions plzz
and btw they set handicaps on korean players in their tournaments (offrace every odd/even sets) just to give their chinese players a fairer chance.
You're right Sziky that Scan has opportunities in the Korea like playing in the Korean events, that foreigners don't have. And as I already said in this thread, if he starts participating in those Korean events, we'll revise our rules if necessary.
looks like he did pretty good too, he advanced first out of his group, beating mong and 2-0ing cola. The fact that hes even listed in the TLPD as part of the sospa scene is already evidence enough that he doesnt belong in the TLS imo. but do as you wish
You forgot ZhanHun and Fengzi. They also played.
ok? I dont think they should be playing in foreigner events either, as they are playing in both chinese and korean pro scenes. And also live in China
sziky eon and tacz played in C-OSL too. exclude them too? if you call the chinese scene a "pro scene" and thus infer the chinese are pro's you would have to argue that those three shouldn't play too. I don't think that's what you're trying to argue here, so explain to me where the difference is.
€: Sziky got knocked out in the quarterfinals, so he went pretty deep. Oh and by no other that Modesty, a progamer.
The difference is the C-OSL accepts foreigners because they dont care, and invites koreans afaik. Foreigners they probably dont consider a threat, but I dont think they want every korean pro joining and stomping all over their tournaments, but they allow some to join for publicity. I could be wrong but thats how they do it to my knowledge. Also they have a way bigger scene and can afford to do stuff like that.
Foreigner events have traditionally banned koreans and chinese and Im saying id rather keep it that way. We only have on average like one big tournament a year so having koreans and chinese play is a blow to the foreign scene, inactive as it is.
well i see what you mean, but technically the chinese have mostly be considered foreigners in the past. - They are listed as those for instance Foreigners
Granted, there are not a lot of occasions where Chinese played in foreign events, but they did: Gambit& had a chinese team participating, Zhanhun and JayStar played for them, both of which are considered as pro's in your book i think. Pj and Legend played in the GosuGamers Star League Season I. So no, Chinese haven't been excluded from foreign events strictly.
What is true, that the two TSL's and the three TLS tournaments didn't let them play, but thats also due to lag issues.
and btw they set handicaps on korean players in their tournaments (offrace every odd/even sets) just to give their chinese players a fairer chance.
that's also an interesting point, i could be wrong but to my knowledge the "progamer rule" (they had to offrace every second game vs chinese) was not applied to Scan in the last C-OSL. WHich would tell us, that the Chinese in fact do care if their players have to face Pro's but didn't consider Scan as progamer.
and btw they set handicaps on korean players in their tournaments (offrace every odd/even sets) just to give their chinese players a fairer chance.
that's also an interesting point, i could be wrong but to my knowledge the "progamer rule" (they had to offrace every second game vs chinese) was not applied to Scan in the last C-OSL. WHich would tell us, that the Chinese in fact do care if their players have to face Pro's but didn't consider Scan as progamer.
yup, if the chinese (whom calibre wise are equivalent to foreigners) do not treat Scan as a korean progamer, why is the foreign scene treating scan as such? just reeks of phobia
btw in a later tournament they change it to "offrace every EVEN game vs chinese" and Zero still won the event. Thats another reason I said the chinese are not any better than the foreigners atm. but i guess they wont even think about TLS anymore because of lag.
On July 21 2015 09:27 Shinrei wrote: The real threat you need to worry about is lancerx anyway. Scan won't even have a chance if he meets him in the tournaments.
Not sure if trolling or serious Shinrei lol
EDIT : To clarify, I don't think that Lancerx could take a game off of scan in a tournament setting to be honest.
On July 21 2015 11:38 TheRavensName wrote: Question about the casting setup. is it a 4 way caste, two seperate streams, a rotating schedule or just hey whichever 4 of these are avialable?
it's only one stream with Sayle and Elegant casting (or at least Sayle is confirmed, will have to double check for Elegant).
I have just seen this topic now. It's great that there are going to be new tournaments.
I must comment on the Scan issue though. The rules say:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
= "read non-Korean/Chinese" So we must investigate. Is Scan korean?
He has korean flag in TLPD. He has a korean name. He was raised in korea. He speaks korean (better than anything else). He knows the korean culture. He has korean genes as far as i know. He knows the korean bw culture. He is in korean clans. He understands korean commentators. He can chat with his korean friends about new builds.
Therefore i can conclude, he IS korean.
Now there is an additional rule to the rule above:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Let me quote Scan here.
On July 19 2015 10:50 LaStScan wrote: (...) i'm in Korea (...)
So he is a korean who is currently living in Korea, therefore, according to your own rules, he should not be allowed to participate.
Whenever he moves back to the U.S., his case should be reconsidered based on his participation in the foreign BW scene. However this rule doesn't mention how to decide based on his participation. So all i can do is summarize his participation (or at least what i found on tlnet).
Major tournaments 2008 Razer TSL - Scan played but he was banned due to cheating. 2011 AoV iCCup StarLeague - Scan won it. 2011 Reality-Defined.com Winners Tournament - Scan won it. 2013 ICCup Ladder Main Event 1 - Scan won it
Defiler tournaments 2011-2012: at least 9x won, 5x second 2014-2015: Scan won all the 5 defiler tourneys that were held recently.
Other -Scan won the iccup ladder several times -Scan occasionally posts on TLnet -Scan released some of his replays recently
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
at least commission someone to make a neo version of it with balanced spawns and updated aesthetics or something. also seems to be made before the era of SCMDraft so might change the ramps to make it more mirrored.
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer?
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
Ok, if thats the case i remember a guy called Minus Eagle who was the first korean as i know who streamed for foreign community before the snipealot streams got up, it was real treasure for the time. Why not Invite him also, so we can guarantee first two spots to korean foreigneers? Seems cool enough.
On July 21 2015 15:08 SynC[gm] wrote: "I studied abroad, but I came to watch the starleague SO I CAN DESTROY EVERYONE IN THE TEAMLIQUID.NET TOURNAMENT AS SCAN. Sbenu Fighting!"
Since I speak the language, guess I can't play. Sucks, I was hoping to beat literally everyone.
I'm sure if Eagle or In_Dove were interested in signing up, they'd at least be discussed and their contributions to the foreign scene would be considered. As much as I love both of these guy I feel like much more speaks in Scan's favor than theirs (his stay abroad, strategy thread, more frequent posting). I'm unaware of either being at all active though. And you know, being a TLer you'd be kind of expected to find out about the tour on your own from browsing the site.
zimp post pretty spot on... just allow all koreans to play. maybe i haven't been around enough and the connection europe-koreans is significantly better and the decision to allow all koreans will be better. otherwise TL will be giving to a single korean the sweet opportunity of angling the foreigner bw players while having virtually no other korean competition.
Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
Seriously i like you but this is to much,did u even watched scan games vs most of us ? no even close,sziky in a good day win Scan ? nah i dont think so more like Scan careless playing offraces then in a bad game of Scan with terran he loss the tourney,but i can tell you from 15 games that scan will play serious maybe sziky can take one,most of games sziky won scan on stream was 9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push,anyway as i said before u can train study all what u want but you dont gonna be even close,cuz while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers .
im not saying is something bad for him to do,is fucking great,wish i had same luck,and play in SSL and korean leagues. I played in the chinese league and sadly they dq for lag they said,the most funny is the same players i was playing in this league later asked me for games in Fish server like nothing,kind of ironic,and if Scan is living in Korea right now lag will be a problem,in the last tourney that the community of hunters organized( never received the prize) i played vs Scan and he made 7 barracks bo and i couldnt micro my mutas cuz latency...and yeah for us zergs this is important..
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
Seriosuly i like you but this is to much,did u even watched scan games vs most of us ? no even close,sziky in a good day win Scan ? nah i dont think so more like Scan careless playing offraces then in a bad game of Scan with terran he loss the tourney,but i can tell you from 15 games that scan will play serious maybe sziky can take one,most of games sziky won scan on stream was 9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push,anyway as i said before u can train study all what u want but you dont gonna be even close,cuz while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers .
im not saying is something bad for him to do,is fucking great,wish i had same luck,and play in SSL and korean leagues. I played in the chinese league and sadly they dq for lag they said,the most funny is the same players i was playing in this league later asked me for games in Fish server like nothing,kind of ironic,and if Scan is living in Korea right now lag will be a problem,in the last tourney that the community of hunters organized( never received the prize) i played vs Scan and he made 7 barracks bo and i couldnt micro my mutas cuz latency...and yeah for us zergs this is important..
"i played vs Scan and he made 7 barracks bo and i couldnt micro my mutas cuz latency...and yeah for us zergs this is important.."
When was this? I feel like there's no proof from you. Just only words. I streamed many games with foreigners(1v1 and 2v2), some countries(EX) Peru) could not afford to play on low lat. However, I can play on low lat with most of the countries.
I can name the players. Flisk, Trutacz, Zerotalent, DireStraits(aka: Canovas), SgT.FaT, and more.
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
Seriosuly i like you but this is to much,did u even watched scan games vs most of us ? no even close,sziky in a good day win Scan ? nah i dont think so more like Scan careless playing offraces then in a bad game of Scan with terran he loss the tourney,but i can tell you from 15 games that scan will play serious maybe sziky can take one,most of games sziky won scan on stream was 9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push,anyway as i said before u can train study all what u want but you dont gonna be even close,cuz while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers .
im not saying is something bad for him to do,is fucking great,wish i had same luck,and play in SSL and korean leagues. I played in the chinese league and sadly they dq for lag they said,the most funny is the same players i was playing in this league later asked me for games in Fish server like nothing,kind of ironic,and if Scan is living in Korea right now lag will be a problem,in the last tourney that the community of hunters organized( never received the prize) i played vs Scan and he made 7 barracks bo and i couldnt micro my mutas cuz latency...and yeah for us zergs this is important..
"i played vs Scan and he made 7 barracks bo and i couldnt micro my mutas cuz latency...and yeah for us zergs this is important.."
When was this? I feel like there's no proof from you. Just only words. I streamed many games with foreigners(1v1 and 2v2), some countries(EX) Peru) could not afford to play on low lat. However, I can play on low lat with most of the countries.
I can name the players. Flisk, Trutacz, Zerotalent, DireStraits(aka: Canovas), SgT.FaT, and more.
Andromeda game in some summer tourney that we never got prize money,and u were in Korea with some mac copmputer that uses windows ? -_- .
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
TLS is like the golden foreigneer tournament and its normal people to be more sensitive on this.
Look i dont remember which league was, but sayle cast it, and scan destroyed sziky in the finals. If i remember correctly lots of people including me were happy that Sziky dominance was stopped and i havent seen people talk that scan shouldnt participate. Now the things are very different, there were no foreign events to keep the scene alive, while scan is playing with the top koreans. The gap became far too big and its not feeling like a challenge, scan is in another league really. My oppinion is the foreigneers have no guilt for not practicing about one event that nobody knows if its going to happen or not, the normal thing after so much time passed is to think its dead and focus on something else. Now when u say "gogo u can do it" is like to do something out of nothing. Plus there is already a boss - Sziky. He was the main target and nobody was ever able to beat him in the tls, now if you add scan it becomes too much i guess.
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
Seriously i like you but this is to much,did u even watched scan games vs most of us ? no even close
On July 21 2015 17:40 Stratos wrote: Wasn't there another Korean TLer already signing up? Anyway I'm pretty shocked at how many top foreigners take Scan as an excuse rather than a challenge. That's pretty sad actually, regardless of how the tourney turns out. I think Sziky is capable of beating Scan on a good day so why is it impossible for anyone else to do it? And even if it was impossible, shouldn't your main aim be to give the sponsor and the fans some entertaining, high level games to enjoy and to get your name out there? When I take a look at a random foreigner tour, I usually see about 50 viewers. Don't you want to change that? And let's not fool ourselves thinking that Scan's participation will be a turn off for the average fan. After all, we just want to see some fun brood war and while Sziky's domination was pretty much undisputed it generated some fanboyism, great storylines (sziky vs doty anyone) and fun games. Scan can serve that very purpose but not if everyone's attitude is just 'oh well he's korean'. Study his game. Prepare builds that specifically target him. Learn from him. Then cheese the fuck out of him. Do whatever it takes and who knows? If you do make it you just may become another legend of foreign BW. It's still a more thrilling prospect than 'Let's see who actually gave a fuck to practice for this season', and that's not just for the viewers but I think the players as well. Here's your boss for this game. Can you beat him? #nevergiveupneversurrender
Seriously i like you but this is to much,did u even watched scan games vs most of us ? no even close
You need to re-watch Sziky's games in TLS1/2/3.
gonna be honest only watched season 1 with dewalt and g5 fighting him very close games.... ok f*ck this sh*t,guys lets ban sziky too LOL
There's only one major issue I see with banning Scan and that's that it's not fair. He's good, but he's been a prominent member of the TL community for a very long time and banning him because he's good is stupid.
Did players stop signing up to OGN/MBC leagues when Flash was like 100 times better than everyone else? No. They trained hard and eventually overcame him as an obstacle.
Eon, even Flash loses to dumb (clever) shit on a bad day. Think of the stuff Michael tried against Sziky with a drone/ovie block. Did it work? No, he fucked up. But it was amazing that he tried and it earned him tons of fan love. He became a part of the folklore with that for years to come. Maybe noone can take Scan down this season. Maybe not in the next three seasons. Maybe he'll get busy with life too much to play then. Or maybe some will just outplay him then. But if you as a player don't strive to be the best you can regardless of your opponents then don't expect me as a fan to cheer you on. It's one thing to cheer on an unsuccessful player but another to cheer on one that isn't trying.
On July 21 2015 18:59 Stratos wrote: Eon, even Flash loses to dumb (clever) shit on a bad day. Think of the stuff Michael tried against Sziky with a drone/ovie block. Did it work? No, he fucked up. But it was amazing that he tried and it earned him tons of fan love. He became a part of the folklore with that for years to come. Maybe noone can take Scan down this season. Maybe not in the next three seasons. Maybe he'll get busy with life too much to play then. Or maybe some will just outplay him then. But if you as a player don't strive to be the best you can regardless of your opponents then don't expect me as a fan to cheer you on. It's one thing to cheer on an unsuccessful player but another to cheer on one that isn't trying.
give me pros to train then we talk,as i said discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito dont gonna put me in semiprogamer level ^^ just from time to time take games from them,and is good cuz is the max level one can aspire us the foreigners..
9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push :D ya x30 ya 50 loss you're wrong again. stratos study this game i really like this damage that can not be f...........ck. ya eon right while scan speak korea (live korean) and can practice fish(NoLaG we all time high LAT so scan can speak korean pro canplayKoreanpro More like me(he dodge more (lag). and bw=korean '''while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers'''' . And while korean play 15 hours one day continue?..Where is the equality? so how i make new bw legenda? '''It's still a more thrilling prospect'''' great Chance(omg) What will you give for it? man while korean played 100thousand game foreign 20thousand, but i go student how can call jaedong to me and i send working and im playing bw. ya but i need first student korean ok np take 2 3 mounht me english already high level. and other time scan destroyed bw not build. now ya restrain yourself. and stop f.cki said student! can you beat him? f....ck ok ? and stop ban or no then 2pac and sponsor decide. yeah one more thing when i dont remember perfectly here korean tour ur mr stratos said only (sorry u no sziky and not agre any email if korean can provide an opportunity for me or other foreign play kor tournament we why add? ya its bad korean have 500thousand dollar one year we have 3000 dollar share with Koreans sure stratos go eat kimchi im not like u :D)
On July 21 2015 19:21 sas.Sziky wrote: 9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push :D ya x30 ya 50 loss you're wrong again. stratos study this game i really like this damage that can not be f...........ck. ya eon right while scan speak korea (live korean) and can practice fish(NoLaG we all time high LAT so scan can speak korean pro canplayKoreanpro More like me(he dodge more (lag). and bw=korean '''while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers'''' . And while korean play 15 hours one day continue?..Where is the equality? so how i make new bw legenda? '''It's still a more thrilling prospect'''' great Chance(omg) What will you give for it? man while korean played 100thousand game foreign 20thousand, but i go student how can call jaedong to me and i send working and im playing bw. ya but i need first student korean ok np take 2 3 mounht me english already high level. and other time scan destroyed bw not build. now ya restrain yourself. and stop f.cki said student! can you beat him? f....ck ok ? and stop ban or no then 2pac and sponsor decide. yeah one more thing when i dont remember perfectly here korean tour ur mr stratos said only (sorry u no sziky and not agre any email if korean can provide an opportunity for me or other foreign play kor tournament we why add? ya its bad korean have 500thousand dollar one year we have 3000 dollar share with Koreans sure stratos go eat kimchi im not like u :D)
I rarely can understand his words... someone rephrase this?
I'll just pick up some words that he's talking about. Even if I am not in Korea, I still don't lag with Koreans in the U.S..
Also, you have mentioned 15 hours a day and equality. Do you really think that every single Korean live like that? You are not the only person super busy in life. It's just you that you did not manage your time well to practice.
I have my own life, busy with school classes. I even take summer course classes which are 2 times faster than regular courses while I am in Korea. I rarely play games without stream on because I would like to perform great games and talk with the viewers. If you have been following me when I stream, sometimes I don't stream for days.
Speaking of Koreans play 15 hours a day (you said it), what about Mong? What about Movie, HyuK, HiyA, Piano, and more? They do other jobs beside playing games. Mong runs snack business. Hyuk runs PC bang. HiyA and other streamers advertise gaming PCs. Movie runs cellphone business.
On July 21 2015 11:38 TheRavensName wrote: Question about the casting setup. is it a 4 way caste, two seperate streams, a rotating schedule or just hey whichever 4 of these are avialable?
The casting team will rotate based on their availability. The only fixture will be Sayle as long as he's available. We might do both two and three way casts to keep it interesting.
''I rarely can understand his words... someone rephrase this?'' why do you answer? if not understand u can write any whos have what but i see fish how many games played any (know accounts ladder) ya mong bad movie too hyuk where? hiya when actic 1 years ago said larva bisu effort hero. and u no said more pls u 'busy' now may but i remember when u have 100 accounts fish 1v1 2v2 iccup 1v1 2v2 play man. and someone said how many games u one day. what about mong i about this is x10 played games compared to me.
On July 21 2015 20:04 sas.Sziky wrote: ''I rarely can understand his words... someone rephrase this?'' why do you answer? if not understand u can write any whos have what but i see fish how many games played any (know accounts ladder) ya mong bad movie too hyuk where? hiya when actic 1 years ago said larva bisu effort hero. and u no said more pls u 'busy' now may but i remember when u have 100 accounts fish 1v1 2v2 iccup 1v1 2v2 play man. and someone said how many games u one day. what about mong i about this is x10 played games compared to me.
Now you are speaking with more unmannered tone. Please work on your English. I only picked some words and talked about it.
Instead of pushing me towards "you have 100 accs in fish and iccup," bring some evidence. I don't have 100 accounts. Bisu is in Kongdoo Company. I do not know what they do, but I am sure bisu has a job in their company. Ssak is also advertising PCs for sure. I can look it up.
Speaking of English, I am not asking you to have a perfect English. At least you should know how to deliver your thoughts to people.
In addition, why are you talking with that tone to me now? you act normal(kind tone) when you wanted to register to play C-OSL. Even if you acted the same as now when you wanted to participate C-OSL, I wouldn't act dirty not to accept you. I do not mind if you hate me or not, but you need to work on communication skill.
I am more than happy to play against gosu players from korea and anywhere else in no/slight lag on low latency. If nowadays most koreans indeed have close to no lag with Europe for instance- allow them all to join the tournament/series. Just please don't name it a "foreigner" tournament because it will certainly be not a foreigner tournament while having korean/s in it. However, i think that the connection will not be good enough, and allowing all koreans will create two problems: many and various connection/lag issues + opening the gate wide for korean flagged* abusing/cheating of all kind.
*please note that korean flagged does not necessarily mean that a korean is doing it
Jesus, I know you guys don't like all of the top players complaining that they can't beat Scan, but trying to convince everyone that they can and they're just cowards makes it worse. I'll give you guys 1:1 odds with me betting for Scan to win the entire event ~ barring anyone paying him off... I bet none of you will take it. You probably aren't willing to do 2:1 odds, if that's the case... You shouldn't be arguing anything based on skill or saying anything about how the other players are scared and just need practice and "man up". Any practice most foreigners can get, Scan can get more and in better quality. On top of that, the starting level is not even comparable.
The rules of the tournament are set by the organizers, and you can argue Scan both ways based on his nationality, you can argue it both ways based on his past and you can argue it both ways for what actually benefits the scene... In the end, I do think letting Scan play is the more respectable decision, it's tough to say if it's the better decision for the scene in general ~ I don't think anyone can confirm either way.
Every organization makes mistakes, every organization makes good decisions which fans/players consider to be mistakes and every organization makes bad decisions which are largely considered good by fans/players.
~ This is just fan opinion, but I guess my initial thought going into this post was just to say that everyone should look at how their posting contributes to the drama as opposed to just pointing at the players making drama over the issue.
I sympathize with the players, and the organization.
On July 21 2015 19:21 sas.Sziky wrote: 9p vs 14 cc,and sometimes a macro game where scan suicide his first push :D ya x30 ya 50 loss you're wrong again. stratos study this game i really like this damage that can not be f...........ck. ya eon right while scan speak korea (live korean) and can practice fish(NoLaG we all time high LAT so scan can speak korean pro canplayKoreanpro More like me(he dodge more (lag). and bw=korean '''while im training and discussing strategies with cryoc lancerx and fenito,scan is training with zero and progamers'''' . And while korean play 15 hours one day continue?..Where is the equality? so how i make new bw legenda? '''It's still a more thrilling prospect'''' great Chance(omg) What will you give for it? man while korean played 100thousand game foreign 20thousand, but i go student how can call jaedong to me and i send working and im playing bw. ya but i need first student korean ok np take 2 3 mounht me english already high level. and other time scan destroyed bw not build. now ya restrain yourself. and stop f.cki said student! can you beat him? f....ck ok ? and stop ban or no then 2pac and sponsor decide. yeah one more thing when i dont remember perfectly here korean tour ur mr stratos said only (sorry u no sziky and not agre any email if korean can provide an opportunity for me or other foreign play kor tournament we why add? ya its bad korean have 500thousand dollar one year we have 3000 dollar share with Koreans sure stratos go eat kimchi im not like u :D)
I rarely can understand his words... someone rephrase this?
I'll just pick up some words that he's talking about. Even if I am not in Korea, I still don't lag with Koreans in the U.S..
Also, you have mentioned 15 hours a day and equality. Do you really think that every single Korean live like that? You are not the only person super busy in life. It's just you that you did not manage your time well to practice.
I have my own life, busy with school classes. I even take summer course classes which are 2 times faster than regular courses while I am in Korea. I rarely play games without stream on because I would like to perform great games and talk with the viewers. If you have been following me when I stream, sometimes I don't stream for days.
Speaking of Koreans play 15 hours a day (you said it), what about Mong? What about Movie, HyuK, HiyA, Piano, and more? They do other jobs beside playing games. Mong runs snack business. Hyuk runs PC bang. HiyA and other streamers advertise gaming PCs. Movie runs cellphone business.
Wallace to the rescue! So basically what Sziky is trying to say is - Scan is Korean, part of the Korean scene, has always been and he has key advantages compared to us "foreigners". Mainly because Scan knows the language which the Korean pro's speak and he actually has Korean IP and internet connection and is able to practice a ton of games with them without any real problem. Also Scan is part of the Korean culture and has no problem getting accepted inside of it. Meanwhile as many of the foreigners have experienced this playing on fish, we are usually getting banned, trash talked and treated as a lower class players by the Korean scene(pros included) because we don't know the Korean language and have "worse" internet connection than the Koreans and in some cases we are no different than "yankees" to them (please don't take that as a generalisation, just pointing out some problems we have all faced on fish).
So what Sziky is trying to say and is actually 100% accurate about is - Scan is as legitimate participant of the Korean scene as all of the Korean professional players, he grew up with that scene, he was 100% adapted to it and has never been considered a foreigner by the scene itself.
As of the determination to play the games hours/day etc etc, it is clear for all of us that Koreans work much harder than us and it is the main reason why Starcraft has reached the level it has throughout the years. Without Korea, Starcraft would've never had the pro scene we know and admire today. Probably none of us would've been playing the game still nowadays. Scan grew up inside of this scene and i don't want to take away anything from him and his achievements, but he will never be a foreigner in the sense we were and still are. So i personally think Sziky is right about this and he is the person that knows best how things are on the fish server. Also i think Sziky was talking about the lag and latency issues during games in fish, for foreigners its almost impossible to play on low lat without lag, not to mention that on high/extra high there are usually still problems, but it is more bearable. That can also lead to less games, less chances to play with top Korean players. It is another thing to keep in mind in terms of practice. This is my take on Sziky's thoughts .
First and foremost, kimchi is delicious and healthy and you should all get your daily dose.
Second, I was merely voicing my concerns as a fan of foreign BW, trying to motivate the players to try their best no matter what. Is it all about first place and the money? Isn't it also about much more? If you're convinced Scan is unbeatable, does that mean there's little reason to practise? Would you just go into the game with him, type gg and leave, or would you try to at least make it hard on him, put on a nice show for the fans and learn from the experience?
If it's not worth it for you guys, then as your fan I'm somewhat troubled about the future of foreign BW. What happens when guys like Rus_Brain are not around anymore? If this league ends up being a one-man show because all the top players said 'meh', then it'll be a real shame.
One of the things often brought up is the lack of Koreans to talk strategy and practise with. So why not let some helpful Korean players like Scan into our communities? Isn't that a possible way forward, this being the first big step? We're losing talented players left and right as they get busy with their lives and fresh players are few and far between. At this rate I feel like we'll be soon moving backwards. Will foreign BW just slowly fade into the abyss?
Of course I'm not trying to demand, order or judge anyone. To sum up my message in a single sentence: If you're a top foreigner and you're not going to practise as hard as you would or even participate in this starleague for whatever reason, then that makes me sad and I hope you can find whatever reasons necessary to reconsider.
As always this league will only be what y'all make it.
Would you just go into the game with him, type gg and leave, or would you try to at least make it hard on him, put on a nice show for the fans and learn from the experience?
many times i also think to do this,well lets just give wo wathever,then join in the game cuz the viewers and at the end get destroyed like some A- vs C and feel more terrible.but i guess is something that only us can feel maybe ? cuz no offense to any but people defending speaking here doesnt looks like skill players,otherwise the thing would have been different.Rus_Brain knows a bit and propose that scan start the games with one loss,no sure if he was kidding or no but atleast looks more interesting,and even that it just will motivated him to train hard with his pros friends and us to prepare some cheap rushes with comrades of our same lvl.
On July 21 2015 05:45 LRM)TechnicS wrote: In the end Rus_brain is the king and he can have large influence over the decision at least for the first 1-2 cups. Imho: allow all koreans to play or make it a true foreigner event/series.
I don't interfere BW 20th anniversary soon, so I still have a job to do.
(kind tone) what u said? '''hi i no have skype i want play, if can but here few question: this server same latency than fish? i ask because lag and when play?''' weekend play only or may weekdays? ''' what did you expect? hi f....ck you?. now what kind tone? ---- why do you answer? if not understand. or 100 accounts? u still a kid . especially that you do not understand the analogy never. and never respect little unless of the interests. You always said me english bad no need tell again. and dont said what i need work(comunications skill). and I did not want you ban (although it would be fair somewhere if u play) ............just I told the facts only........ glhf
As a small aside from the highly entertaining back and forth,
How about setting up Scan as a final boss in the next TLS similar to how we had Sea, except that its much entertaining to see Sziky actually take games off Scan than have to deal with Seas impossible level.
The fans win cause everyone actually does want to see how good everyone else will do vs Scan. The other top foreign players win because they can play a tournament without feeling cheated if they run into scan in the bracket. Scan wins because he can still get a special prize pool and play vs the best players in the tourney with less time consumption.
On July 22 2015 05:59 sas.Sziky wrote: (kind tone) what u said? '''hi i no have skype i want play, if can but here few question: this server same latency than fish? i ask because lag and when play?''' weekend play only or may weekdays? ''' what did you expect? hi f....ck you?. now what kind tone? ---- why do you answer? if not understand. or 100 accounts? u still a kid . especially that you do not understand the analogy never. and never respect little unless of the interests. You always said me english bad no need tell again. and dont said what i need work(comunications skill). and I did not want you ban (although it would be fair somewhere if u play) ............just I told the facts only........ glhf
You are simply just being biased and even more racist. Keep up that attitude. I've changed through times, but looks like you did not. Talking about age, is Hungary classified society? If so, stop acting like that in this arguments. You really do not know how to use facts. Probably have not written essays much, right? Not here to brag who's better, and who's not better, but hey, listen.
I've gone through shitload of visa and non-immigrant issues all of the time to study and stay in the U.S.. Even through phone call speaking in English that I really do not like. To prove, you must have evidence. What I see from your words, you just throwing random shit to people that what I've done. Sure, I'll respect your right, I'll not say or give you an advice, and I will not help you in the future.
Speaking of latency and lag problem between KR and HU, that is not my fault. Try finding a new way to fix it such as having a new and better Internet. Players like Flisk, eOnzErG, trutacz, and probably more out there play in fish. Ask their help. I played against flisk yesterday, the game did not lag. Also trutacz did not lag with me. Even in 2v2 in iccup. I do understand the fact that there are some players lag with you. Then avoid them.
By the way, we are both grown up men. I am not a kid anymore or that kind of kid as you've been thinking in your mind. You still have not provided evidence where I have 100 accounts. You said you heard it from someone, right? It will be a fact when you credit that person because that person said it. However, can that person prove it? I'm sure he cannot. So the statement is still an opinion.
On July 22 2015 07:49 DarkNetHunter wrote: As a small aside from the highly entertaining back and forth,
How about setting up Scan as a final boss in the next TLS similar to how we had Sea, except that its much entertaining to see Sziky actually take games off Scan than have to deal with Seas impossible level.
The fans win cause everyone actually does want to see how good everyone else will do vs Scan. The other top foreign players win because they can play a tournament without feeling cheated if they run into scan in the bracket. Scan wins because he can still get a special prize pool and play vs the best players in the tourney with less time consumption.
just my two cents.
took that right out of the ICCUP Skype Group when i was talking to Cele
On July 22 2015 07:49 DarkNetHunter wrote: As a small aside from the highly entertaining back and forth,
How about setting up Scan as a final boss in the next TLS similar to how we had Sea, except that its much entertaining to see Sziky actually take games off Scan than have to deal with Seas impossible level.
The fans win cause everyone actually does want to see how good everyone else will do vs Scan. The other top foreign players win because they can play a tournament without feeling cheated if they run into scan in the bracket. Scan wins because he can still get a special prize pool and play vs the best players in the tourney with less time consumption.
just my two cents.
took that right out of the ICCUP Skype Group when i was talking to Cele
your idea was basically the same yes. Im still no huge fan of it, but oh well (;
Guys, while I think it's great that you are trying to reach an understanding, please, let's try to stay civil. Nothing wrong with arguing so long as neither individual is hurling any kind of insult at the other
On July 22 2015 08:57 BigFan wrote: Guys, while I think it's great that you are trying to reach an understanding, please, let's try to stay civil. Nothing wrong with arguing so long as neither individual is hurling any kind of insult at the other
i think we are a bit past that given the above statements.
On July 22 2015 08:57 BigFan wrote: Guys, while I think it's great that you are trying to reach an understanding, please, let's try to stay civil. Nothing wrong with arguing so long as neither individual is hurling any kind of insult at the other
i think we are a bit past that given the above statements.
It's more of a preventive measure; to prevent it from accelerating since I'd rather not see some random poster who strolls by (lol) report them for player insult etc... Also, I've watched both players over the years and know that they are both skilled at starcraft so I figure they can learn from each other if they get along.
5 years we have struggled since SC2 release. Brood war staff and brood war casters work many hours behind the scenes and live for all of you. There is no prize money at the end for what we do. Yet we pour hours upon hours for half a decade into maintaining a community. We also spent these past 4-6 months planning out something amazing. We will sacrifice weekends for hosting this tournament. Weekdays covering and hyping the ones to follow. Yet you guys complain about something small like this? One player will make you so bitter while no one considers the effort non players must put forward to even make this happen. What if we gave up after all these years? We didn't! And now it's your turn to buck up and play the best damn game out there. It's not about money, it's about playing your best game. Please sign up, practice, and enjoy this because that is the greatest gift you can give us after all these years.
On December 09 2013 03:43 sas.Sziky wrote: yes eon can play 10 hours/ day not everyone. and what u think why cant see this format another tours?(1000years) only this and defiler(GJ) and defiler not problem?good joke all time problem its a long(very bad) I gave up, I can not give yours Estonian good start this tour how much wo heres up to now? idk but here +1 take w.o ace im cant play this is gl.
Man up and let him play. If he lags like crazy, ban him (like you would anyone else). It's that simple. When any other foreigner was in Korea they were allowed to participate in foreign tournaments. I don't know much about Scan but from what I've gathered from reading here, I would consider Scan as much of a foreigner as a Korean can get... something along the lines of a SC1 version of Polt.
The majority of people who seem to actually care about this are the ones who think they can win some $ and see him as a threat. It's only $50 people... this is just a fun event and should be treated as such. Let the guy play and have fun like everyone else. If he takes the $50... who really cares..? If $50 is going to make or brake you, you probably should be focused on getting a job rather than Starcraft.
On July 22 2015 13:39 G5 wrote: Man up and let him play. If he lags like crazy, ban him (like you would anyone else). It's that simple. When any other foreigner was in Korea they were allowed to participate in foreign tournaments. I don't know much about Scan but from what I've gathered from reading here, I would consider Scan as much of a foreigner as a Korean can get... something along the lines of a SC1 version of Polt.
The majority of people who seem to actually care about this are the ones who think they can win some $ and see him as a threat. It's only $50 people... this is just a fun event and should be treated as such. Let the guy play and have fun like everyone else. If he takes the $50... who really cares..? If $50 is going to make or brake you, you probably should be focused on getting a job rather than Starcraft.
I suggest you award the winner with 2nd place and see what Scan has to say about it. Because that's how foreigners feel when going into a tournament against Scan - they can't beat him realistically. Basically what Wallce said is what it's about. As regards Scan's remarks, they're cute and all (especially comparing his classes with Sziky busting his ass off as a woodcutter), but what's with this then? http://maxgosu.blogspot.de/2011/05/interwiev-with-lastscan-by-iccupcom.html Of course he's korean when it comes to playing Starcraft and of course it pisses many people off, seeing as how he collects ez money from all foreigner tournaments. Like this one: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Defiler_Tour_70 Yeah that's real exciting to watch, 2-0 everyone. Sometimes he would lose a game or two choosing non-main race. Which is considered bm by the tournament admin because Scan usually rapes everyone regardless of that.
Again, it shouldn't be about what the viewers want. They don't play. Even if it was, what makes you think that a somewhat one sided TvZ is "more" boring than a series of ZvZ starting with the Semis? Because that's what you usally get if you have Bo1 until Ro8 and with the current scene - see most of the tournaments so far.
Pissing me off would be a class of players who can only be lured into playing due to money, see G5's post. I'd love more people with the attitude of a Lancerx, who play w/e the circumstances are. It's not like half of the players complaining in here wouldn't sign up either way, it's very few who just don't want to post: "I got old and moved on". That happens, it's not bad at all, but save yourself some dignity and say it. Making it sound as if it's either Scan's, Brain's or the organizer's fault you're not that motivated anymore is just ridiculous and at some level insulting the work these put into this project. I wonder if 2pac et al. already regret trying to come up with that series. Stop being a negative nancy and start having fun. I mean seriously, this thread became a joke, we even get Eywa giving lectures of organizing. This. has. to. stop.
On July 22 2015 12:34 BisuDagger wrote: 5 years we have struggled since SC2 release. Brood war staff and brood war casters work many hours behind the scenes and live for all of you. There is no prize money at the end for what we do. Yet we pour hours upon hours for half a decade into maintaining a community. We also spent these past 4-6 months planning out something amazing. We will sacrifice weekends for hosting this tournament. Weekdays covering and hyping the ones to follow. Yet you guys complain about something small like this? One player will make you so bitter while no one considers the effort non players must put forward to even make this happen. What if we gave up after all these years? We didn't! And now it's your turn to buck up and play the best damn game out there. It's not about money, it's about playing your best game. Please sign up, practice, and enjoy this because that is the greatest gift you can give us after all these years.
I get what you're saying GeckoXp. Is it Scan's fault? Of course not. He should just say "you're all easy mode but I don't care, let me win anyway", instead of pretending to be a legit foreigner. While owning Savior in 2v2 tournaments and being a sparring partner for active progamers to help them out with SSL.
On July 22 2015 17:58 GeckoXp wrote: Yoda considers off racing as BM?
Again, it shouldn't be about what the viewers want. They don't play. Even if it was, what makes you think that a somewhat one sided TvZ is "more" boring than a series of ZvZ starting with the Semis? Because that's what you usally get if you have Bo1 until Ro8 and with the current scene - see most of the tournaments so far.
Pissing me off would be a class of players who can only be lured into playing due to money, see G5's post. I'd love more people with the attitude of a Lancerx, who play w/e the circumstances are. It's not like half of the players complaining in here wouldn't sign up either way, it's very few who just don't want to post: "I got old and moved on". That happens, it's not bad at all, but save yourself some dignity and say it. Making it sound as if it's either Scan's, Brain's or the organizer's fault you're not that motivated anymore is just ridiculous and at some level insulting the work these put into this project. I wonder if 2pac et al. already regret trying to come up with that series. Stop being a negative nancy and start having fun. I mean seriously, this thread became a joke, we even get Eywa giving lectures of organizing. This. has. to. stop.
Start a poll and let the community vote, it will become clear in one day what the viewers want. If this conflict continues it will push away both players and viewers.
On July 22 2015 17:58 GeckoXp wrote: Yoda considers off racing as BM?
Again, it shouldn't be about what the viewers want. They don't play. Even if it was, what makes you think that a somewhat one sided TvZ is "more" boring than a series of ZvZ starting with the Semis? Because that's what you usally get if you have Bo1 until Ro8 and with the current scene - see most of the tournaments so far.
Pissing me off would be a class of players who can only be lured into playing due to money, see G5's post. I'd love more people with the attitude of a Lancerx, who play w/e the circumstances are. It's not like half of the players complaining in here wouldn't sign up either way, it's very few who just don't want to post: "I got old and moved on". That happens, it's not bad at all, but save yourself some dignity and say it. Making it sound as if it's either Scan's, Brain's or the organizer's fault you're not that motivated anymore is just ridiculous and at some level insulting the work these put into this project. I wonder if 2pac et al. already regret trying to come up with that series. Stop being a negative nancy and start having fun. I mean seriously, this thread became a joke, we even get Eywa giving lectures of organizing. This. has. to. stop.
Start a poll and let the community vote, it will become clear in one day what the viewers want. If this conflict continues it will push away both players and viewers.
The bottom line is we discussed this as tournament organizers and made a decision. If this turns out to be a bad decision then is something we will have re-evaluate in the future. If we take a poll for this, then I guess we should have a poll for maps in the tournament to make that more fair or a poll for the tournament format or maybe a poll for what day the tournaments should be played on.
Personally dislike his participation because of the lags. You're looking at zvt (since there are no good terran and protoss now), where zerg can't micro. Add maps like pa, mp - you choose a winner before the tournament started.
His daily amount of games is 30+, which he streams like everyday for the last year. You sure this amateur tournament? 30+ daily seems like full-time work, with overtime hours added. Let other koreans play, and some random kr that makes 40+ games a day will simply rape him. What you're doing is discouraging ppl from participating - none will match that no-life amount of games.
This will be a tournament for 3rd place - who want's to play for 3rd place? Sziky will probably take 2nd, so the rest plays for 3rd spot.
This looks like FIFA commitee, all top places fixed already, you sure you need a tournament for that? xd
On July 22 2015 22:11 13Julia wrote: There is a point to that.
Personally dislike his participation because of the lags. You're looking at zvt (since there are no good terran and protoss now), where zerg can't micro. Add maps like pa, mp - you choose a winner before the tournament started.
His daily amount of games is 30+, which he streams like everyday for the last year. You sure this amateur tournament? 30+ daily seems like full-time work, with overtime hours added. Let other koreans play, and some random kr that makes 40+ games a day will simply rape him. What you're doing is discouraging ppl from participating - none will match that no-life amount of games.
This will be a tournament for 3rd place - who want's to play for 3rd place? Sziky will probably take 2nd, so the rest plays for 3rd spot.
This looks like FIFA commitee, all top places fixed already, you sure you need a tournament for that? xd
I don't play every day. I'm very surprised that most of the people are just saying "oh, Scan just plays 24/7" or "30 ++ games daily."
Prove to people with an evidence where I play 30 ++ games per day instead of shouting out random stuff to make it into real and pushing me towards to accept and say, "Yes, I play 30 ++ games every day." I'm almost done getting school, I managed my time well to practice also. Stop looking for a way or ways to bullshit something about me and saying "Scan no life user" or "Scan 30 ++ games every day."
People who've been following and talking to me nicely on my stream channel or through Skype chat, they know it well. You guys can search up my DoB. You can make a prediction that I'm in school in the U.S., and I've also said nicely that I'm taking summer classes also while I'm in Korea earlier.
By the way, random Korean that makes 40 ++ games a day will not able to rape me that simply as you think. Why? Everyone has different talents. I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to understand my meaning without any explanation.
I still get to see how some people are still posting false story to become true. Hmm. Not sure what to say about this problem.
On July 22 2015 17:58 GeckoXp wrote: Yoda considers off racing as BM?
Again, it shouldn't be about what the viewers want. They don't play. Even if it was, what makes you think that a somewhat one sided TvZ is "more" boring than a series of ZvZ starting with the Semis? Because that's what you usally get if you have Bo1 until Ro8 and with the current scene - see most of the tournaments so far.
Pissing me off would be a class of players who can only be lured into playing due to money, see G5's post. I'd love more people with the attitude of a Lancerx, who play w/e the circumstances are. It's not like half of the players complaining in here wouldn't sign up either way, it's very few who just don't want to post: "I got old and moved on". That happens, it's not bad at all, but save yourself some dignity and say it. Making it sound as if it's either Scan's, Brain's or the organizer's fault you're not that motivated anymore is just ridiculous and at some level insulting the work these put into this project. I wonder if 2pac et al. already regret trying to come up with that series. Stop being a negative nancy and start having fun. I mean seriously, this thread became a joke, we even get Eywa giving lectures of organizing. This. has. to. stop.
Sorry for trying to be a well mannered contributor to the discussion ~ my posts were less about organization and more about people criticizing the players for what is a natural reaction.
I still get to see how some people are still posting false story to become true. Hmm. Not sure what to say about this problem.
Nice try. Maybe start with yourself there.
I'll just start ignoring these kinds of people. Pointless to argue.
Believe what you guys would like to and have fun with it. You are just simply troll user to me after your reply. No evidence still shown, just typing all day.
You are just keyboard-warrior. Good luck in living with those prejudice in the future.
TL administration has made a decision and will stick to it. They put in a lot of hard work to make this tournament possible. Show some respect and accept their decision and move on, either play or don't. The tournament admins are not going to change the rules regarding scan because of this shitstorm, so there is actually no point to his drama at all, but for the sake of the drama itself. Of course arguments about this topic can be exchanged in a civil manner, but we are way past this point.
On July 22 2015 23:56 Cele wrote: This thread is becoming very depressing.
TL administration has made a decision and will stick to it. They put in a lot of hard work to make this tournament possible. Show some respect and accept their decision and move on, either play or don't. The tournament admins are not going to change the rules regarding scan because of this shitstorm, so there is actually no point to his drama at all, but for the sake of the drama itself. Of course arguments about this topic can be exchanged in a civil manner, but we are way past this point.
Yup. Trying to bully Scan out of this tournament is just flat out depressing. Both sides need to stop nit picking at what each other is saying. If you guys keep this up I'm going to have KadaverBB start bringing some of his yoshi hammer love into this thread.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
He is Korean. Lives in Korea. Plays 90% of games on Korean servers. Yet he is an 'edge-case'.
-> Don't make rules which you don't follow yourself. Simply call it foreginers + scan tournament.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
He is Korean. Lives in Korea. Plays 90% of games on Korean servers. Yet he is an 'edge-case'.
-> Don't make rules which you don't follow yourself. Simply call it foreginers + scan tournament.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
He is Korean. Lives in Korea. Plays 90% of games on Korean servers. Yet he is an 'edge-case'.
-> Don't make rules which you don't follow yourself. Simply call it foreginers + scan tournament.
Wait, if you allow one korean who plays 24/7, and ban other koreans from the tour, isn't this simply fixing the tour?
I'm sorry to say this, but Olympic Zerg is right. We are going to get our asses kicked by the only Korean in the tour that is the closest to semi-pro player there has ever been in the Korean scene. That is 0 chance to fight for first place ;(
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
He is Korean. Lives in Korea. Plays 90% of games on Korean servers. Yet he is an 'edge-case'.
-> Don't make rules which you don't follow yourself. Simply call it foreginers + scan tournament.
Wait, if you allow one korean who plays 24/7, and ban other koreans from the tour, isn't this simply fixing the tour?
I'm sorry to say this, but Olympic Zerg is right. We are going to get our asses kicked by the only Korean in the tour that is the closest to semi-pro player there has ever been in the Korean scene. That is 0 chance to fight for first place ;(
What is the difference between getting your asses kicked by Korean or by Hungarian like it happened in TLS1/2/3?
Why it has to be their fault that foreigners suck while they practiced a lot and got better?
On July 22 2015 12:34 BisuDagger wrote: 5 years we have struggled since SC2 release. Brood war staff and brood war casters work many hours behind the scenes and live for all of you. There is no prize money at the end for what we do. Yet we pour hours upon hours for half a decade into maintaining a community. We also spent these past 4-6 months planning out something amazing. We will sacrifice weekends for hosting this tournament. Weekdays covering and hyping the ones to follow. Yet you guys complain about something small like this? One player will make you so bitter while no one considers the effort non players must put forward to even make this happen. What if we gave up after all these years? We didn't! And now it's your turn to buck up and play the best damn game out there. It's not about money, it's about playing your best game. Please sign up, practice, and enjoy this because that is the greatest gift you can give us after all these years.
I understand this Scan business is dumb and I think he should be able to play anyways, but I think you should be happy that your tournament has so much hype surrounding it even without the scan business.
It seems you're sort of peeved people have a problem with what you're doing, but you guys are the TOs and you've said Scan can play so if people want to complain let them. Be happy that you even have the amount of people interested to play in the first place!
Qikz, even though the wording is iffy, I'm pretty sure that BD meant to include you and anyone else doing anything for the community under those titles in his post.
On July 23 2015 01:08 BigFan wrote: Qikz, even though the wording is iffy, I'm pretty sure that BD meant to include you and anyone else doing anything for the community under those titles in his post.
I'm gonna remove the vast majority of it, doesn't really seem necessary.Although I will keep this line:
"It'd be nice if TL could more to promote smaller tournaments not created by the official "BW Team" through a weekly news post or something as it'd help give those other tournaments a boost in interest."
On July 23 2015 01:08 BigFan wrote: Qikz, even though the wording is iffy, I'm pretty sure that BD meant to include you and anyone else doing anything for the community under those titles in his post.
Much better put then my angry response to that lol.
People cry about Scan that he is allowed to participate in this tournament. He is a part of active users in Defiler Tours for many years, and no one had problems with it, ever. It looks mainly like people desperately want to win any money in video game, i recommend go to the job if you play video game for money. Nobody was crying about Sziky though he is still unbeatable for foreigners when he practices, now Scan joins the league and everyone starts to cry Scan does not lag. There are users who played even more games or +/- the same amount on FISH, when Scan was practicing hard there, and WE are still not close to him.If you are just afraid of him, do not participate.
Scan does not lag even if he is in Korea. Even if Scan is korean i dont care, it would be even better when more D-C-B koreans players participate. Some of you guys are talking like you ever had a chance to win TLS, Sziky showed, so guys please...
On July 23 2015 01:08 BigFan wrote: Qikz, even though the wording is iffy, I'm pretty sure that BD meant to include you and anyone else doing anything for the community under those titles in his post.
Much better put then my angry response to that lol.
Yeah sorry I kinda didn't think that post through too much. My bad.
On July 23 2015 01:21 trutaCz wrote: People cry about Scan that he is allowed to participate in this tournament. He is a part of active users in Defiler Tours for many years, and no one had problems with it, ever. It looks mainly like people desperately want to win any money in video game, i recommend go to the job if you play video game for money. Nobody was crying about Sziky though he is still unbeatable for foreigners when he practices, now Scan joins the league and everyone starts to cry Scan does not lag. There are users who played even more games or +/- the same amount on FISH, when Scan was practicing hard there, and WE are still not close to him.If you are just afraid of him, do not participate.
Scan does not lag even if he is in Korea. Even if Scan is korean i dont care, it would be even better when more D-C-B koreans players participate. Some of you guys are talking like you ever had a chance to win TLS, Sziky showed, so guys please...
how about invite Bisu and apply your logic? The koreans/non-koreans separation is somewhat stupid to begin with, but if you decided to play by the rules, well, do it. Scan is korean: his iccup stats are ridiculous, he's playing regularly with active progamers, he's even ethnically korean, it doesn't get any closer.
On July 23 2015 01:21 trutaCz wrote: People cry about Scan that he is allowed to participate in this tournament. He is a part of active users in Defiler Tours for many years, and no one had problems with it, ever. It looks mainly like people desperately want to win any money in video game, i recommend go to the job if you play video game for money. Nobody was crying about Sziky though he is still unbeatable for foreigners when he practices, now Scan joins the league and everyone starts to cry Scan does not lag. There are users who played even more games or +/- the same amount on FISH, when Scan was practicing hard there, and WE are still not close to him.If you are just afraid of him, do not participate.
Scan does not lag even if he is in Korea. Even if Scan is korean i dont care, it would be even better when more D-C-B koreans players participate. Some of you guys are talking like you ever had a chance to win TLS, Sziky showed, so guys please...
Well Sziky did manage sweeping victories over you and Michael, but his final with TechnicS in TLS2 was far from one-sided. I like how people here totally ignore that fact.
Juvenal, yeah, Wallace's post translating Sziky's post is pretty spot on. Everyone should read his comment carefully imo.
BisuDagger, something small as this? If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys: if you allow a korean, allow all koreans to play, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. I am not even convinced scan has this good of a connection but lets assume he does have it. But please take out the phrase "cups for foreigners" to something else. You could go and negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge. I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example. If koreans are allowed, why don't you actually allow all koreans to play in it? (not a rhetorical question, I will try to follow if I get some sort of an answer for this by organizers in the comments here)
G5's post is so off I don't know where to start from. Does anyone imagine Scan being allowed now after this discussion in order to be later banned for a slight to moderate lag on high latency? To you as a protoss, I don't know what you consider "lag like crazy", but to the good zerg foreigner, given a strong korean terran opponent, moderate lag on high latency is something that makes the korean have significantly bigger advantage on the top of the one he already has. " It's only $50 people..." ... I cannot imagine a more demeaning way of describing Rus_Brain's generous willingness to put $2000+ up for grabs. Not to mention the direspect for the series as a whole - 5-6 month period full of Cups before the TLS championship which is going to have slightly bigger prizepool than the "main event" itself and will probably be played out in the span of the same 5-6 month period. Also Rus_Brain said like a boss he wants to have no say in the issue.
I am saying allow all koreans if you are going to allow Scan. Is he the biggest korean contributor to the foreigner scene to give him this kind of privileges? The better question - could a single korean alone be the best contributor to the foreigner scene ever? Consider Sonic - he is the mother of all contributors to BW in the last years, yet he wouldn't be able to do it without the actual passion and dedication of specific players - the early and later joining BJs - at least to me there are no totally new faces in korean BW to prove me wrong here.
I basically refuse to attend in a logical non-sense of a "foreigner tournament for foreigners to support the foreigner scene with this special korean that has never existed in the history of BW". Just allow koreans to play.
On July 23 2015 01:21 trutaCz wrote: People cry about Scan that he is allowed to participate in this tournament. He is a part of active users in Defiler Tours for many years, and no one had problems with it, ever. It looks mainly like people desperately want to win any money in video game, i recommend go to the job if you play video game for money. Nobody was crying about Sziky though he is still unbeatable for foreigners when he practices, now Scan joins the league and everyone starts to cry Scan does not lag. There are users who played even more games or +/- the same amount on FISH, when Scan was practicing hard there, and WE are still not close to him.If you are just afraid of him, do not participate.
Scan does not lag even if he is in Korea. Even if Scan is korean i dont care, it would be even better when more D-C-B koreans players participate. Some of you guys are talking like you ever had a chance to win TLS, Sziky showed, so guys please...
how about invite Bisu and apply your logic? The koreans/non-koreans separation is somewhat stupid to begin with, but if you decided to play by the rules, well, do it. Scan is korean: his iccup stats are ridiculous, he's playing regularly with active progamers, he's even ethnically korean, it doesn't get any closer.
Please contact TL admins, and make it happen, i believe most of us would like to play Bisu in TLS.
BulgarianToss, i do not ignore the fact that TechnicS took 2 games of 4 and lost the series.What exactly does it change? Because for me it only shows that TechnicS was a very very good player back in the time.
Sziky has won more tournaments than Me,Michael,Technics,EonZerg,Marwin,Bizzy,Bibiane, all of top foreigners grouped.
On July 23 2015 01:21 trutaCz wrote: People cry about Scan that he is allowed to participate in this tournament. He is a part of active users in Defiler Tours for many years, and no one had problems with it, ever. It looks mainly like people desperately want to win any money in video game, i recommend go to the job if you play video game for money. Nobody was crying about Sziky though he is still unbeatable for foreigners when he practices, now Scan joins the league and everyone starts to cry Scan does not lag. There are users who played even more games or +/- the same amount on FISH, when Scan was practicing hard there, and WE are still not close to him.If you are just afraid of him, do not participate.
Scan does not lag even if he is in Korea. Even if Scan is korean i dont care, it would be even better when more D-C-B koreans players participate. Some of you guys are talking like you ever had a chance to win TLS, Sziky showed, so guys please...
how about invite Bisu and apply your logic? The koreans/non-koreans separation is somewhat stupid to begin with, but if you decided to play by the rules, well, do it. Scan is korean: his iccup stats are ridiculous, he's playing regularly with active progamers, he's even ethnically korean, it doesn't get any closer.
Please contact TL admins, and make it happen, i believe most of us would like to play Bisu in TLS.
BulgarianToss, i do not ignore the fact that TechnicS took 2 games of 4 and lost the series.What exactly does it change? Because for me it only shows that TechnicS was a very very good player back in the time.
Sziky has won more tournaments than Me,Michael,Technics,EonZerg,Marwin,Bizzy,Bibiane, all of top foreigners grouped.
Yes, but Sziky is a chogosu foreigner that has not grown up in korean culture, having the opportunity to practice LAN/no lag games with chogosu koreans. Not an actual korean. It's up to us - foreigners to step our game up and challenge his foreigner title.
It's only personal. It doesn't matter Sziky is from Hungary, Scan from Korea, both are very high skilled players. Until there is no lag i don't see any problems.
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
I've read stratos' comment and he has a point but I agree with technics too.
Just change the damn wording if that's your intention and you'll solve most of the problem since atm the organisers appear bad, like how someone raising money for a cancer would look bad if he's actually giving the raised money for polio.
Scan being allowed due to "and others" sneakily sneaked in is just bad communication after all the previous emphasis on foreigners as nonKorean/Chinese (which he definitely is not).
Redefine it as something like that below and it'll be better. Technics (who I agree with) might be satisfied and people who object can only talk about him being too good instead of arguing about how he's korean or a foreigner because it's undeniable that he participates and contributes.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Non-foreigners will be considered separately based on their participation and contribution to the foreign BW scene.
In the end " strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene " still reads funny if all the money is going to a korean (assuming he wins) and you could still improve on the wording.
ATM you just sound hypocritical despite all the hard and sincere work put in.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
He is Korean. Lives in Korea. Plays 90% of games on Korean servers. Yet he is an 'edge-case'.
-> Don't make rules which you don't follow yourself. Simply call it foreginers + scan tournament.
Wait, if you allow one korean who plays 24/7, and ban other koreans from the tour, isn't this simply fixing the tour?
I'm sorry to say this, but Olympic Zerg is right. We are going to get our asses kicked by the only Korean in the tour that is the closest to semi-pro player there has ever been in the Korean scene. That is 0 chance to fight for first place ;(
Olympic zerg? Sc is dead now officially if Julia has olympic.
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
I've read stratos' comment and he has a point but I agree with technics too.
Just change the damn wording if that's your intention and you'll solve most of the problem since atm the organisers appear bad, like how someone raising money for a cancer would look bad if he's actually giving the raised money for polio.
Scan being allowed due to "and others" sneakily sneaked in is just bad communication after all the previous emphasis on foreigners as nonKorean/Chinese (which he definitely is not).
Redefine it as something like that below and it'll be better. Technics (who I agree with) might be satisfied and people who object can only talk about him being too good instead of arguing about how he's korean or a foreigner because it's undeniable that he participates and contributes.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Non-foreigners will be considered separately based on their participation and contribution to the foreign BW scene.
In the end " strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene " still reads funny if all the money is going to a korean (assuming he wins) and you could still improve on the wording.
ATM you just sound hypocritical despite all the hard and sincere work put in.
Agreed. If scan can play, lets invite all of SOSPA players and make this interesting.
if yoda was prime admin here, he'd just say "admin is lazy and admin want's it" or something along those lines and everybody would shut up and play. Funny. why do you guys feel so entitled to lawyer and argue about this? It's not your decision to make.
On July 23 2015 05:48 sas.Sziky wrote: i have good idea !! : D if i win scan add extra money?:D (because facts ''ex korean pro'' still korean) because then I come back : )
But you get $15 more if you beat Scan since you get first place lol
On July 23 2015 05:48 sas.Sziky wrote: i have good idea !! : D if i win scan add extra money?:D (because facts ''ex korean pro'' still korean) because then I come back : )
If you win Scan in finals you already get extra money :D
so many preparing for this tournament its insane actually, saw so many on fish lately. And the smurf accs running around everywhere. Awesome to see the amount of activity on iccup right now.
And the new system makes it MUCH easier to reach a-/a/a+/olympic
Scan actually doesn't give a fuck about TLS, he accepts and participates what he can. He has gone into SC2, now hitting 21 GM rank in NA. So, if he reached it that fast (month or 40 days?), he is just talented Foreign Korean who is better than every foreigner who like to whine here at every line.
Examples of whiners:
I work no time to play as Scan (c) Sziky Scan plays 40 games a day, I don't (c) Julia Scan is Korean so he shouldn't be here or let's invite all koreans (c) Technics ................. LOL
If this will make people happy. I'll put a 10$ bounty on anyone who beats/knocks scan out of a tournament. If scan loses no tournament between now and December 15th I will give him $100. I will take $10 away from the hundred dollar scan pool for every tournament he loses. I call this profit.
there are obviously people that are not paying attention to simple facts. how can someone qualify an actual korean as a "Foreign Korean" ?
What I propose is pretty simple and logical and I don't really have a problem as I probably won't be able to attend a good amount of the cups. It's a matter of principle.
BisuDagger, did you read my suggestion for the TLS cups organisation and do you plan on answering on that at some point?
On July 23 2015 07:06 BisuDagger wrote: If this will make people happy. I'll put a 10$ bounty on anyone who beats/knocks scan out of a tournament. If scan loses no tournament between now and December 15th I will give him $100. I will take $10 away from the hundred dollar scan pool for every tournament he loses. I call this profit.
very nice idea,thanks so much for do all this for foreigners stimulate koreans is always welcome to help our scene,oh wait actually there are few who keep playing the game after all this years of TLS,but not reward at all when big tournament back just put one korean imba to win us all ^_^ Fantastic.
still remember the old stars tournaments organized by artanis,at the end sziky was right,so much hype for old players but the new ones just got shit,i didnt played this koth giving my place to non zerg players since the line was full of zergs,but wathever.. all this just looks unfair to me.
im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Seriously, all of you who are saying we should open it to all koreans or whatever; why is it so hard to understand the rules which were very clearly written. The point of the tournament is to have people who are part of the foreign BW scene playing in it.
Can you seriously, with clear conscience, say that Scan is not part of the foreign BW scene?
i want note since some people saying Scan was allowed to play in defiler tournaments,Yoda allowed everyone to play and progamers were more than welcome,sometimes it turned bad cuz there were some koreans hackers,and terror[fou] that ruined the tourney ^^ .
On July 23 2015 07:29 2Pacalypse- wrote: Seriously, all of you who are saying we should open it to all koreans or whatever; why is it so hard to understand the rules which were very clearly written. The point of the tournament is to have people who are part of the foreign BW scene playing in it.
Can you seriously, with clear conscience, say that Scan is not part of the foreign BW scene?
zimp's comment sums it up pretty well in regards to rules
On July 21 2015 12:33 zimp wrote: I have just seen this topic now. It's great that there are going to be new tournaments.
I must comment on the Scan issue though. The rules say:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
= "read non-Korean/Chinese" So we must investigate. Is Scan korean?
He has korean flag in TLPD. He has a korean name. He was raised in korea. He speaks korean (better than anything else). He knows the korean culture. He has korean genes as far as i know. He knows the korean bw culture. He is in korean clans. He understands korean commentators. He can chat with his korean friends about new builds.
Therefore i can conclude, he IS korean.
Now there is an additional rule to the rule above:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
On July 19 2015 10:50 LaStScan wrote: (...) i'm in Korea (...)
So he is a korean who is currently living in Korea, therefore, according to your own rules, he should not be allowed to participate.
Whenever he moves back to the U.S., his case should be reconsidered based on his participation in the foreign BW scene. However this rule doesn't mention how to decide based on his participation. So all i can do is summarize his participation (or at least what i found on tlnet).
Major tournaments 2008 Razer TSL - Scan played but he was banned due to cheating. 2011 AoV iCCup StarLeague - Scan won it. 2011 Reality-Defined.com Winners Tournament - Scan won it. 2013 ICCup Ladder Main Event 1 - Scan won it
Defiler tournaments 2011-2012: at least 9x won, 5x second 2014-2015: Scan won all the 5 defiler tourneys that were held recently.
Other -Scan won the iccup ladder several times -Scan occasionally posts on TLnet -Scan released some of his replays recently
I just wrote down some facts
in relation to the 'he is a part of foreign bw scene' please define this as lenghty and as carefully as possible please
I came up with some specific uncommon but pleasant idea for foreigner players. What If we arrange some hardcore handicap for our lovely "edge case" Korean?
In order to start bo3/5 without a loss with default score at elimination bracket Scan needs to win extra 1 game first then he needs to proceed to his bo3/5 series. If he fails to win 1st game the opponent will take 1-0 lead. We can call it HANDICAP ROUND. I photoshopped my way:
I mean if ro8/semifinals are all bo3 - and if Scan loses a game at HR then his opponent needs to win just a game to eliminate him.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
i didnt pass the limit to receive this type of insult ,i want you apology, and i think you deserve a ban.
idk really how should answer this type of thing lol..if this was real life atleast and tell me this in my face,you are pathetic...
I my self donate for defiler tours and mini tours,casted for the community streamed for them ,i really have no words...
On July 23 2015 07:29 2Pacalypse- wrote: Seriously, all of you who are saying we should open it to all koreans or whatever; why is it so hard to understand the rules which were very clearly written. The point of the tournament is to have people who are part of the foreign BW scene playing in it.
Can you seriously, with clear conscience, say that Scan is not part of the foreign BW scene?
zimp's comment sums it up pretty well in regards to rules
On July 21 2015 12:33 zimp wrote: I have just seen this topic now. It's great that there are going to be new tournaments.
I must comment on the Scan issue though. The rules say:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
= "read non-Korean/Chinese" So we must investigate. Is Scan korean?
He has korean flag in TLPD. He has a korean name. He was raised in korea. He speaks korean (better than anything else). He knows the korean culture. He has korean genes as far as i know. He knows the korean bw culture. He is in korean clans. He understands korean commentators. He can chat with his korean friends about new builds.
Therefore i can conclude, he IS korean.
Now there is an additional rule to the rule above:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Let me quote Scan here.
On July 19 2015 10:50 LaStScan wrote: (...) i'm in Korea (...)
So he is a korean who is currently living in Korea, therefore, according to your own rules, he should not be allowed to participate.
Whenever he moves back to the U.S., his case should be reconsidered based on his participation in the foreign BW scene. However this rule doesn't mention how to decide based on his participation. So all i can do is summarize his participation (or at least what i found on tlnet).
Major tournaments 2008 Razer TSL - Scan played but he was banned due to cheating. 2011 AoV iCCup StarLeague - Scan won it. 2011 Reality-Defined.com Winners Tournament - Scan won it. 2013 ICCup Ladder Main Event 1 - Scan won it
Defiler tournaments 2011-2012: at least 9x won, 5x second 2014-2015: Scan won all the 5 defiler tourneys that were held recently.
Other -Scan won the iccup ladder several times -Scan occasionally posts on TLnet -Scan released some of his replays recently
I just wrote down some facts
Except that zimp ignored the only relevant part to Scan's case. Stratos already refuted it:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
On July 23 2015 07:37 LRM)TechnicS wrote: in relation to the 'he is a part of foreign bw scene' please define this as lenghty and as carefully as possible please
This was also already done in this thread; but seeing how you pick and choose what you want to read, here's one relevant post about it:
On July 19 2015 00:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Gonna be clear like water,Scan in means everyone is playing for second place,it doesnt help us in anything,players that are inactive right now there is no way they could be in beast form to even take a game from him unless he kills two scvs in the start.sziky is till beatable.Scan is not.I also think some players gonna watch oh this guy playing the tourney no even worth train.. just my opinion.Imo just add some semipros too then we could have a very high level tourney :smart:
It's Bo1 until the Ro8 in Legacy Cups, anything can happen
Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty ridiculous and it's only happening because everyone seems to think that Scan has some kind of superpowers and is "too good". If Bisu played in foreign BW events for years, participated in the community, made guides for us and translated things for us, we would allow him to play as well. It just doesn't make sense to do otherwise.
To clarify this quoted post, I'll say the strongest argument you can have against Scan's participation is if his being in Korea at the moment, has unfair advantage of participating in the offline Korean events which foreigners are not privy to. If he starts to participate in those, as I said before, we'll revise our rule.
Also, it's pretty ridiculous that all of your arguments fall apart as soon as Scan comes back to US next month or whenever.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys to organize: if you allow a korean, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. You could go and try to negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example.
It's disappointing we as players/viewers of this event can't simply respect the organizers' decisions. Just move on everyone. It's simple, don't watch/participate if you disagree with the rules. If you want a perfect tour with perfect rules, then you can go sponsor and organize it yourself. glhf
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys to organize: if you allow a korean, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. You could go and try to negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example.
I don't have the time or energy to pull that together. To not speak for everyone, but we are certainly busy enough right now and do not have the resources to pull of something that big. I understand what you are asking, but we are working with what's realistic and ultimately what we want.
As I am not aware of Scan's so valueable contributions to the foreign BW scene, could you please link me to some of his major contributions: 1. to the community; 2. his guides; 3. his translations.
2pac- my arguments do not fall apart when an actual korean goes anywhere after he has lived significant amount of time in Korea and is currently living there. All other things equal if I go to Korea now i will suddenly become an edge case and will be reconsidered separately? This is laughable.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys to organize: if you allow a korean, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. You could go and try to negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example.
I don't have the time or energy to pull that together. To not speak for everyone, but we are certainly busy enough right now and do not have the resources to pull of something that big. I understand what you are asking, but we are working with what's realistic and ultimately what we want.
Really? Is it that time and energy consuming? So you say 10 organizers are not having the resources to go over in fish freqently and chat with koreans for like a month to spread the word? Yet you want from 20-30+players to work their ass off for a year to beat scan maybe about 60% of the time?
On July 23 2015 08:02 fearthequeen wrote: It's disappointing we as players/viewers of this event can't simply respect the organizers' decisions. Just move on everyone. It's simple, don't watch/participate if you disagree with the rules. If you want a perfect tour with perfect rules, then you can go sponsor and organize it yourself. glhf
On July 23 2015 08:07 LRM)TechnicS wrote: As I am not aware of Scan's so valueable contributions to the foreign BW scene, could you please link me to some of his major contributions: 1. to the community; 2. his guides; 3. his translations.
On July 23 2015 08:07 LRM)TechnicS wrote: 2pac- my arguments do not fall apart when an actual korean goes anywhere after he has lived significant amount of time in Korea and is currently living there. All other things equal if I go to Korea now i will suddenly become an edge case and will be reconsidered separately? This is laughable.
To be honest, I don't even know what's your argument (I was addressing those who were arguing that he shouldn't be allowed to play because he's in Korea, or those who wanted us to stick with the old TSL1/2 and TLS1/2/3 rules).
Why is that laughable though? We wrote the main rule first (no people from Korea/China), but then had to clarify them so we can allow some of our members who live in Korea, like CaucasianAsian, Scan etc or Koreans who live in US, like yellowsmile (I think) etc.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys to organize: if you allow a korean, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. You could go and try to negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example.
I don't have the time or energy to pull that together. To not speak for everyone, but we are certainly busy enough right now and do not have the resources to pull of something that big. I understand what you are asking, but we are working with what's realistic and ultimately what we want.
Really? Is it that time and energy consuming? So you say 10 organizers are not having the resources to go over in fish freqently and chat with koreans for like a month to spread the word? Yet you want from 20-30+players to work their ass off for a year to beat scan maybe about 60% of the time?
Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
On July 23 2015 07:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im not best technics supporter but i agree with him,just invite good koreans players and make this tourney interesting,atleast this way you guys arent spiting right in the face of us.
Dude. If you think we are spitting in our face just gtfo. A fan donated a ton of money. The TL team steps up and makes tournaments happen. We have been excited for this for months. Then unappreciative people like you just say shit and ruin the fun for everyone else. Please, oh please don't play. I won't cast your games. I won't cheer for you. I want people who want to be grateful and play. I've never been this disappointed with posters here.
@Technics, I am unclear what your suggestion was please re explain. Thank you.
If you demand foreigners to take up the challenge and work their ways, consider this challenge for you guys to organize: if you allow a korean, go over fish (preferably with Scan), find chogosu/pro koreans and invite those that have good kor-eu/americas connection and let them play too. You could go and try to negotiate movie, firebathero, sea, nada and some not as known korean chogosus with good connection by telling them the purpose is to support and hopefully revive the foreigner bw scene for a good amount of time. Why give 1 time opportunities to play korean chogosus to winners of 3-4 month long tournaments when you can involve many more and make them pretty available to play to anyone that decides to play in the World BW Brain Cups? I would more than frickin' happilly accept to play not as known korean chogosus with good connection and I will happily accept lag on extra high latency a la bw-in-2003 vs pros/legends. If you accept this challenge I could try to negotiate ChRh to come and join the cups for example.
I don't have the time or energy to pull that together. To not speak for everyone, but we are certainly busy enough right now and do not have the resources to pull of something that big. I understand what you are asking, but we are working with what's realistic and ultimately what we want.
Really? Is it that time and energy consuming? So you say 10 organizers are not having the resources to go over in fish freqently and chat with koreans for like a month to spread the word? Yet you want from 20-30+players to work their ass off for a year to beat scan maybe about 60% of the time?
I'm planning a wedding, have to travel from Florida to Seattle for work trips, travel to see my dad 2 hrs always barely surviving pancreatic cancer, travel 6 hrs to North Carolina to see my mother who is only back for China for one month before leaving another year. I do work full time+ among all this. Yeah life is pretty god damn busy for me. Sorry neither I or any one on staff shoves their life problems on the rest of you to show how busy we are. I don't give a damn if you know how little time I truly have to squeeze in Brood War while keeping it together. Nope. I smile and whistle because amongst all this I'm a truly happy person and feel blessed for the moments I have here. Even these ones where we have the luxury of arguing over the greatest foreign news in two years.
Is the people that was banned from TLS allowed to participate that abused in TLS before? I got 2 friends that got banned and is curious if they can participate?
On July 23 2015 08:49 neteX wrote: Is the people that was banned from TSL allowed to participate that abused in TSL before? I got 2 friends that got banned and is curious if they can participate?
We didn't discuss an official policy on this yet, but we're willing to do so. Can you tell us who they are so we can take a look at their case more closely?
On July 23 2015 08:49 neteX wrote: Is the people that was banned from TSL allowed to participate that abused in TSL before? I got 2 friends that got banned and is curious if they can participate?
We didn't discuss an official policy on this yet, but we're willing to do so. Can you tell us who they are so we can take a look at their case more closely?
Its the same tournament when Scan got banned It's the exact same case when he got banned.. They are just curious and they don't want to say if they're gonna participate or not. Since they don't know if they are allowed to play.
I understand the foreigners in this thread etc, but scan is different from other koreans. Hes been in the foreign scene playing with foreigners a lot for so many years now.
On July 23 2015 08:49 neteX wrote: Is the people that was banned from TSL allowed to participate that abused in TSL before? I got 2 friends that got banned and is curious if they can participate?
We didn't discuss an official policy on this yet, but we're willing to do so. Can you tell us who they are so we can take a look at their case more closely?
Its the same tournament when Scan got banned It's the exact same case when he got banned.. They are just curious and they don't want to say if they're gonna participate or not. Since they don't know if they are allowed to play.
I understand the foreigners in this thread etc, but scan is different from other koreans. Hes been in the foreign scene playing with foreigners a lot for so many years now.
On July 23 2015 08:49 neteX wrote: Is the people that was banned from TSL allowed to participate that abused in TSL before? I got 2 friends that got banned and is curious if they can participate?
We didn't discuss an official policy on this yet, but we're willing to do so. Can you tell us who they are so we can take a look at their case more closely?
Its the same tournament when Scan got banned It's the exact same case when he got banned.. They are just curious and they don't want to say if they're gonna participate or not. Since they don't know if they are allowed to play.
I understand the foreigners in this thread etc, but scan is different from other koreans. Hes been in the foreign scene playing with foreigners a lot for so many years now.
12 months have long passed since then ^^. So yes, they would be allowed to participate.
Oh thank you i totally missed that one, ty again for linking that. 12 months and TSL3 aiit got it I'll tell them . Hope they'll join just to make the tournament more interesting.
BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
The point that is being raised here is that Scan has had the Chance to engage, train and participate in post KeSpa SOSPA events- the closest we know to old progaming standards. He has different and better pratice partners, like ZerO, speaks fluent korean and is able to play with a low ping and little lag on fish. That all is true.
Let's take a look back at 2009 Pokerstrategy.com TSL, shall we? This tournament explicitly addressed foreigners, is remembered by most of us as one of the all time best foreigner tournaments and as a successful and interesting tournament. And the TSL is obviously, by intention, design, tournament format and even layout the predecessor and forefather of TLS
The rules stated that
Korean and Chinese IP addresses are prohibited (unless granted exemption by TSL Administration)
What's the intention of the law? It serves two purposes, it provides games with little lag and excludes korean Gosu's.
Yet, the TLS Final Bracket had 3 players with experience with professional korean broodwar in it.IdrA, who was notorious and famous for training very hard and grinding a ton of games in the CJ_Entus House, Ret who nearly made in a courage tournament (there's a vid of this with Artosis, i can't find it right now) and switched from TvZ to ZvZ for that, and NonY who made second place in a courage.
Those players had the same advantages in some time of their career, for Idra right then, as Scan has now. They had acess to the best training partners. They played them with no lag. (LAN obviously.) THey didn't speak korean, but then they didn't attend summer class, but trained all day in the best environment possible.
Yet, to me in TSL 2 their advantage was not a problem. IdrA, who was the huge favorite before the tournament to many, didn't win it. He lost to NonY in the Semifinals, as we know. You might argue Nony had progaming experience too, but his stay in Korea was much shorter, he came back after an extended break and he trained in the US for the event, while Idra trained in part in Korea. In the finals he won a close nailbiter vs Mondragon, a Zerg Superstar, but without korean pro gaming background whatsoever.
In short, players with a back ground or at least some experience in professional korean BW ddin't overshadow the TSL 2, at least the way i see it.
What's the difference
THe foreign scene before the TSL 2 was in a much better place than it is today. Players didn't live from BW, but they could make a decent amount on the side, with sponsor contracts and prize money. There were plenty opportunity to play, where we have been lacking opportunities and tournaments in the past. The issue here is NOT that Scan has acesss to very good training conditions, the issue is that nobody kept up with him. Place the Scan of today in the Ro16 of TSL 2 and it would be fine.
Conclusion
I understand the frsutration top players feel to catch up to a player who seems to have a insurmountable advantage. But first, people thought the same way about IdrA and we know how that turned out. Secondly, Scan shouldn't be punished for thriving for the best training conditions.
On July 23 2015 09:50 Cele wrote: The point that is being raised here is that Scan has had the Chance to engage, train and participate in post KeSpa SOSPA events- the closest we know to old progaming standards. He has different and better pratice partners, like ZerO, speaks fluent korean and is able to play with a low ping and little lag on fish. That all is true.
Let's take a look back at 2009 Pokerstrategy.com TSL, shall we? This tournament explicitly addressed foreigners, is remembered by most of us as one of the all time best foreigner tournaments and as a successful and interesting tournament. And the TSL is obviously, by intention, design, tournament format and even layout the predecessor and forefather of TLS
Korean and Chinese IP addresses are prohibited (unless granted exemption by TSL Administration)
What's the intention of the law? It serves two purposes, it provides games with little lag and excludes korean Gosu's.
Yet, the TLS Final Bracket had 3 players with experience with professional korean broodwar in it.IdrA, who was notorious and famous for training very hard and grinding a ton of games in the CJ_Entus House, Ret who nearly made in a courage tournament (there's a vid of this with Artosis, i can't find it right now) and switched from TvZ to ZvZ for that, and NonY who made second place in a courage.
Those players had the same advantages in some time of their career, for Idra right then, as Scan has now. They had acess to the best training partners. They played them with no lag. (LAN obviously.) THey didn't speak korean, but then they didn't attend summer class, but trained all day in the best environment possible.
Yet, to me in TSL 2 their advantage was not a problem. IdrA, who was the huge favorite before the tournament to many, didn't win it. He lost to NonY in the Semifinals, as we know. You might argue Nony had progaming experience too, but his stay in Korea was much shorter, he came back after an extended break and he trained in the US for the event, while Idra trained in part in Korea. In the finals he won a close nailbiter vs Mondragon, a Zerg Superstar, but without korean pro gaming background whatsoever.
In short, players with a back ground or at least some experience in professional korean BW ddin't overshadow the TSL 2, at least the way i see it.
What's the difference
THe foreign scene before the TSL 2 was in a much better place than it is today. Players didn't live from BW, but they could make a decent amount on the side, with sponsor contracts and prize money. There were plenty opportunity to play, where we have been lacking opportunities and tournaments in the past. The issue here is NOT that Scan has acesss to very good training conditions, the issue is that nobody kept up with him. Place the Scan of today in the Ro16 of TSL 2 and it would be fine.
Conclusion
I understand the frsutration top players feel to catch up to a player who seems to have a insurmountable advantage. But first, people thought the same way about IdrA and we know how that turned out. Secondly, Scan shouldn't be punished for thriving for the best training conditions.
You do realize that Mondragon knew so many koreans and practiced vs them even had clanwars vs extremely good korean teams. Mondragon has been training and practicing vs the very best koreans also. So saying that he didn't have any practice or any type of progaming practice is false.
I knew dizzy back then and i also know that he had a lot of korean friends/contacts. Even Testie knew most of the koreans that were good back then. What happens behind the scene isn't easy to know about but saying stuff without knowing is meh.
On July 23 2015 09:50 Cele wrote: The point that is being raised here is that Scan has had the Chance to engage, train and participate in post KeSpa SOSPA events- the closest we know to old progaming standards. He has different and better pratice partners, like ZerO, speaks fluent korean and is able to play with a low ping and little lag on fish. That all is true.
Let's take a look back at 2009 Pokerstrategy.com TSL, shall we? This tournament explicitly addressed foreigners, is remembered by most of us as one of the all time best foreigner tournaments and as a successful and interesting tournament. And the TSL is obviously, by intention, design, tournament format and even layout the predecessor and forefather of TLS
The rules stated that
Korean and Chinese IP addresses are prohibited (unless granted exemption by TSL Administration)
What's the intention of the law? It serves two purposes, it provides games with little lag and excludes korean Gosu's.
Yet, the TLS Final Bracket had 3 players with experience with professional korean broodwar in it.IdrA, who was notorious and famous for training very hard and grinding a ton of games in the CJ_Entus House, Ret who nearly made in a courage tournament (there's a vid of this with Artosis, i can't find it right now) and switched from TvZ to ZvZ for that, and NonY who made second place in a courage.
Those players had the same advantages in some time of their career, for Idra right then, as Scan has now. They had acess to the best training partners. They played them with no lag. (LAN obviously.) THey didn't speak korean, but then they didn't attend summer class, but trained all day in the best environment possible.
Yet, to me in TSL 2 their advantage was not a problem. IdrA, who was the huge favorite before the tournament to many, didn't win it. He lost to NonY in the Semifinals, as we know. You might argue Nony had progaming experience too, but his stay in Korea was much shorter, he came back after an extended break and he trained in the US for the event, while Idra trained in part in Korea. In the finals he won a close nailbiter vs Mondragon, a Zerg Superstar, but without korean pro gaming background whatsoever.
In short, players with a back ground or at least some experience in professional korean BW ddin't overshadow the TSL 2, at least the way i see it.
What's the difference
THe foreign scene before the TSL 2 was in a much better place than it is today. Players didn't live from BW, but they could make a decent amount on the side, with sponsor contracts and prize money. There were plenty opportunity to play, where we have been lacking opportunities and tournaments in the past. The issue here is NOT that Scan has acesss to very good training conditions, the issue is that nobody kept up with him. Place the Scan of today in the Ro16 of TSL 2 and it would be fine.
Conclusion
I understand the frsutration top players feel to catch up to a player who seems to have a insurmountable advantage. But first, people thought the same way about IdrA and we know how that turned out. Secondly, Scan shouldn't be punished for thriving for the best training conditions.
You do realize that Mondragon knew so many koreans and practiced vs them even had clanwars vs extremely good korean teams. Mondragon has been training and practicing vs the very best koreans also. So saying that he didn't have any practice or any type of progaming practice is false.
I knew dizzy back then and i also know that he had a lot of korean friends/contacts. Even Testie knew most of the koreans that were good back then. What happens behind the scene isn't easy to know about but saying stuff without knowing is meh.
i realize and i talk to him now and then still. So yes i know what i talk about. But point is: He didnt't speak korean, he had the same lag issues players face today, he never played in pro kor BW. Players today still can get in contact and play with korean gosu's. They can also befriend them, there is no difference to the possibilities dissy had
2pac- thank you for the links. I really admit I am not familiar with Scan's contributions to the foreign scene. I cannot really speak of him. My best take is this: I've seen him play a lot of 2v2s on iccup with foreigners and probably exchanged info with foreigners about builds and tactics... Maybe they even practiced 1v1 a bit and theorycrafted. Maybe.
The bigger contribution of the two links, to me - the three-paged thread is a good start for a major contribution and I welcome the efforts. However I am more impressed with zimp's one here for instance: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/310883-replays . Perhaps I spent more time and was more diligent doing the "Under the Radar" thread in a shorter time span than scan's one but anyways... Perhaps i was better off writing a Zerg guide instead of placing responses here. But hey if an organizer has decided this thread is enough of a contribution to allow him play in the face of such a stiff opposition who am I to disagree? That was harsh and unneeded though, perhaps he really does contribute - as I said not sure about that.
To answer your question - if I were to go to Korea right now, having not played seriously for a whole lot of time, it will be laughable to consider me an edge case.
In the end facing such responses from organizers is not something that motivates me so far and I will just continue to not play. But I guess events have a relatively long way to unfold from now so I guess we will wait and see what happens
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
On July 23 2015 09:50 Cele wrote: The point that is being raised here is that Scan has had the Chance to engage, train and participate in post KeSpa SOSPA events- the closest we know to old progaming standards. He has different and better pratice partners, like ZerO, speaks fluent korean and is able to play with a low ping and little lag on fish. That all is true.
Let's take a look back at 2009 Pokerstrategy.com TSL, shall we? This tournament explicitly addressed foreigners, is remembered by most of us as one of the all time best foreigner tournaments and as a successful and interesting tournament. And the TSL is obviously, by intention, design, tournament format and even layout the predecessor and forefather of TLS
The rules stated that
Korean and Chinese IP addresses are prohibited (unless granted exemption by TSL Administration)
What's the intention of the law? It serves two purposes, it provides games with little lag and excludes korean Gosu's.
Yet, the TLS Final Bracket had 3 players with experience with professional korean broodwar in it.IdrA, who was notorious and famous for training very hard and grinding a ton of games in the CJ_Entus House, Ret who nearly made in a courage tournament (there's a vid of this with Artosis, i can't find it right now) and switched from TvZ to ZvZ for that, and NonY who made second place in a courage.
Those players had the same advantages in some time of their career, for Idra right then, as Scan has now. They had acess to the best training partners. They played them with no lag. (LAN obviously.) THey didn't speak korean, but then they didn't attend summer class, but trained all day in the best environment possible.
Yet, to me in TSL 2 their advantage was not a problem. IdrA, who was the huge favorite before the tournament to many, didn't win it. He lost to NonY in the Semifinals, as we know. You might argue Nony had progaming experience too, but his stay in Korea was much shorter, he came back after an extended break and he trained in the US for the event, while Idra trained in part in Korea. In the finals he won a close nailbiter vs Mondragon, a Zerg Superstar, but without korean pro gaming background whatsoever.
In short, players with a back ground or at least some experience in professional korean BW ddin't overshadow the TSL 2, at least the way i see it.
What's the difference
THe foreign scene before the TSL 2 was in a much better place than it is today. Players didn't live from BW, but they could make a decent amount on the side, with sponsor contracts and prize money. There were plenty opportunity to play, where we have been lacking opportunities and tournaments in the past. The issue here is NOT that Scan has acesss to very good training conditions, the issue is that nobody kept up with him. Place the Scan of today in the Ro16 of TSL 2 and it would be fine.
Conclusion
I understand the frsutration top players feel to catch up to a player who seems to have a insurmountable advantage. But first, people thought the same way about IdrA and we know how that turned out. Secondly, Scan shouldn't be punished for thriving for the best training conditions.
You do realize that Mondragon knew so many koreans and practiced vs them even had clanwars vs extremely good korean teams. Mondragon has been training and practicing vs the very best koreans also. So saying that he didn't have any practice or any type of progaming practice is false.
I knew dizzy back then and i also know that he had a lot of korean friends/contacts. Even Testie knew most of the koreans that were good back then. What happens behind the scene isn't easy to know about but saying stuff without knowing is meh.
i realize and i talk to him now and then still. So yes i know what i talk about. But point is: He didnt't speak korean, he had the same lag issues players face today, he never played in pro kor BW. Players today still can get in contact and play with korean gosu's. They can also befriend them, there is no difference to the possibilities dissy had
1. back then there were a lot of pro players in the foreign scene. Now the amount of activity is nothing compared to what it used to be, which makes it EXTREMELY hard to practice. If you still talk or knew him back then you should know how much contacts he had in the korean scene and how many clanwars he used to have and the amount of time he spent playing vs koreans on different servers/realms.
Also the korean scene back then was much more active than it is now so that's has also decreased and made it worse for people to practice. When i was active and competing iccup was active with a lot of foreign pro players and now you can barely find any good on iccup playing actively. Only thing that is active on iccup these days and for many seasons is 2v2 and that's not even serious gaming. Which isn't good practice for 1v1 serious players.
There is no way anyone of us can compare the activity/amount of practice now and back then from both scenes (korean/foreign)
On July 23 2015 09:50 Cele wrote: The point that is being raised here is that Scan has had the Chance to engage, train and participate in post KeSpa SOSPA events- the closest we know to old progaming standards. He has different and better pratice partners, like ZerO, speaks fluent korean and is able to play with a low ping and little lag on fish. That all is true.
Let's take a look back at 2009 Pokerstrategy.com TSL, shall we? This tournament explicitly addressed foreigners, is remembered by most of us as one of the all time best foreigner tournaments and as a successful and interesting tournament. And the TSL is obviously, by intention, design, tournament format and even layout the predecessor and forefather of TLS
The rules stated that
Korean and Chinese IP addresses are prohibited (unless granted exemption by TSL Administration)
What's the intention of the law? It serves two purposes, it provides games with little lag and excludes korean Gosu's.
Yet, the TLS Final Bracket had 3 players with experience with professional korean broodwar in it.IdrA, who was notorious and famous for training very hard and grinding a ton of games in the CJ_Entus House, Ret who nearly made in a courage tournament (there's a vid of this with Artosis, i can't find it right now) and switched from TvZ to ZvZ for that, and NonY who made second place in a courage.
Those players had the same advantages in some time of their career, for Idra right then, as Scan has now. They had acess to the best training partners. They played them with no lag. (LAN obviously.) THey didn't speak korean, but then they didn't attend summer class, but trained all day in the best environment possible.
Yet, to me in TSL 2 their advantage was not a problem. IdrA, who was the huge favorite before the tournament to many, didn't win it. He lost to NonY in the Semifinals, as we know. You might argue Nony had progaming experience too, but his stay in Korea was much shorter, he came back after an extended break and he trained in the US for the event, while Idra trained in part in Korea. In the finals he won a close nailbiter vs Mondragon, a Zerg Superstar, but without korean pro gaming background whatsoever.
In short, players with a back ground or at least some experience in professional korean BW ddin't overshadow the TSL 2, at least the way i see it.
What's the difference
THe foreign scene before the TSL 2 was in a much better place than it is today. Players didn't live from BW, but they could make a decent amount on the side, with sponsor contracts and prize money. There were plenty opportunity to play, where we have been lacking opportunities and tournaments in the past. The issue here is NOT that Scan has acesss to very good training conditions, the issue is that nobody kept up with him. Place the Scan of today in the Ro16 of TSL 2 and it would be fine.
Conclusion
I understand the frsutration top players feel to catch up to a player who seems to have a insurmountable advantage. But first, people thought the same way about IdrA and we know how that turned out. Secondly, Scan shouldn't be punished for thriving for the best training conditions.
You do realize that Mondragon knew so many koreans and practiced vs them even had clanwars vs extremely good korean teams. Mondragon has been training and practicing vs the very best koreans also. So saying that he didn't have any practice or any type of progaming practice is false.
I knew dizzy back then and i also know that he had a lot of korean friends/contacts. Even Testie knew most of the koreans that were good back then. What happens behind the scene isn't easy to know about but saying stuff without knowing is meh.
i realize and i talk to him now and then still. So yes i know what i talk about. But point is: He didnt't speak korean, he had the same lag issues players face today, he never played in pro kor BW. Players today still can get in contact and play with korean gosu's. They can also befriend them, there is no difference to the possibilities dissy had
1. back then there were a lot of pro players in the foreign scene. Now the amount of activity is nothing compared to what it used to be, which makes it EXTREMELY hard to practice. If you still talk or knew him back then you should know how much contacts he had in the korean scene and how many clanwars he used to have and the amount of time he spent playing vs koreans on different servers/realms.
Also the korean scene back then was much more active than it is now so that's has also decreased and made it worse for people to practice. When i was active and competing iccup was active with a lot of foreign pro players and now you can barely find any good on iccup playing actively. Only thing that is active on iccup these days and for many seasons is 2v2 and that's not even serious gaming. Which isn't good practice for 1v1 serious players.
There is no way anyone of us can compare the activity/amount of practice now and back then from both scenes (korean/foreign)
i agree, the problem is not Scan, the problem in what place the foreign BW scene is. There is little pratice, very hard to get a good team, good partner, motivate yourself for top events and find a korean Team to play a friendly CW with you. Let's not talk about all the ongoing leagues like BWCL that are gone too. I don't think it is comparable, you are right.
But that's what i wanted to say: The problem isn't Scan's skill level- it is very high of course- but the real problem is the opportunities for other players to get there. And i don't think Scan should be punished for that.
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
I think I made my point somewhat clear
I understand what you are saying. But since we aren't budging as of now, something that hasn't been mentioned is it is not a guarantee that Scan will play in every weekend tournament from here to the end either. There will certainly be some he misses and opportunity to win it all win be even higher. Just some added insight.
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
I think I made my point somewhat clear
I understand what you are saying. But since we aren't budging as of now, something that hasn't been mentioned is it is not a guarantee that Scan will play in every weekend tournament from here to the end either. There will certainly be some he misses and opportunity to win it all win be even higher. Just some added insight.
Should I try to participate every tours? No twitch memes :/ I'm at Gwangju, meeting and having fun with sc2 pro gamja.
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
I think I made my point somewhat clear
I understand what you are saying. But since we aren't budging as of now, something that hasn't been mentioned is it is not a guarantee that Scan will play in every weekend tournament from here to the end either. There will certainly be some he misses and opportunity to win it all win be even higher. Just some added insight.
what about a 1 week or 2 week cooldown for winner?
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
I think I made my point somewhat clear
I understand what you are saying. But since we aren't budging as of now, something that hasn't been mentioned is it is not a guarantee that Scan will play in every weekend tournament from here to the end either. There will certainly be some he misses and opportunity to win it all win be even higher. Just some added insight.
what about a 1 week or 2 week cooldown for winner?
I don't find it necessary. If there's a player dedicated enough to keep showing up and taking 1st week after week (scan included) i dont think they should be denied or punished for that.
On July 23 2015 09:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: BisuDagger, I am happy to hear about the wedding and feel bad about your dad. I really hope all is well with you and your family for as long as possible. But players can also have issues to spend physical time on. The thing is that for organizers to do this it will take 1 hour a day for a month and everybody and their grandma in Korea will know about the TL Legacy Cup series for the next 3 months, after this not as big absolute amount of time you have a success. Whereas for the players to prepare properly you need them to play actual games/prepare build orders/ study maps/talk strategies with others and in my opinion this will take much more time. Perhaps it was an emotional speech of yours to get players onto organizers side of the argument and to participate and practice. But the content of the speech leaves me with the impression that you want some sort of a trade-off between organizers and players - you are giving the gift of putting time and efforts into organizing it as best as possible and in exchange you want them to prepare as best as possible. In this case, it is strange to me that you ask a broad entity of players to practice hard for a year to get a 60% chance (at best) for something while saying that chatting with and searching for koreans for a month from time to time is beyond the time, energy and resources of the whole entity of organizers?
I just want people to be happy and play. That's the only exchange I am asking for
That is very nice to hear but imo people don't get happy after playing hard for a year to get a 50% winratio at best (sorry for the rough estimations) not being sure the whole time whether the tournament was being some sort of fair to them.
I think I made my point somewhat clear
I understand what you are saying. But since we aren't budging as of now, something that hasn't been mentioned is it is not a guarantee that Scan will play in every weekend tournament from here to the end either. There will certainly be some he misses and opportunity to win it all win be even higher. Just some added insight.
what about a 1 week or 2 week cooldown for winner?
Why should the winner have a cd? Sounds really bad imo
Haven't seen a single Terran player complain here. Once again it is shown that Terran is the manliest race. Overmind is panicking that Terran will finally purge them from the throne and foreign zergs arrive in swarms to complain.
Julia, eon, sziky and technics, it's a scary 4 pool attack but so far TLS Admins defend well.
On July 24 2015 02:06 13Julia wrote: I have a good voice of reason, please allow all koreans to play.
Why only allow one that you know and want to win? He too scared of other koreans?
Seriously, at this point I'll start considering you're only posting to troll.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
LOL that video!!! :D It made me laught in a way that rather confused my girlfriend who was in the room trying to make sense out of the video and why is it so funny :D:D:D
On July 24 2015 04:39 dRaW wrote: When you haven't checked TL in so long, you get a notification on FB about a BW tournament...
dRaW has come to defend the Foreign BW Scene from scan. The epic story line continues...
Will dRaW and Scan meet in the finals? Will dRaW save humanity from the evil cyborg Korean Scan? Will Bisudagger change his TL username to emodagger while Bisu is away at military service?
Tune into the TLS to find out the answers to these epic riddles.
On July 23 2015 07:29 2Pacalypse- wrote: Seriously, all of you who are saying we should open it to all koreans or whatever; why is it so hard to understand the rules which were very clearly written. The point of the tournament is to have people who are part of the foreign BW scene playing in it.
Can you seriously, with clear conscience, say that Scan is not part of the foreign BW scene?
zimp's comment sums it up pretty well in regards to rules
On July 21 2015 12:33 zimp wrote: I have just seen this topic now. It's great that there are going to be new tournaments.
I must comment on the Scan issue though. The rules say:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
= "read non-Korean/Chinese" So we must investigate. Is Scan korean?
He has korean flag in TLPD. He has a korean name. He was raised in korea. He speaks korean (better than anything else). He knows the korean culture. He has korean genes as far as i know. He knows the korean bw culture. He is in korean clans. He understands korean commentators. He can chat with his korean friends about new builds.
Therefore i can conclude, he IS korean.
Now there is an additional rule to the rule above:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Let me quote Scan here.
On July 19 2015 10:50 LaStScan wrote: (...) i'm in Korea (...)
So he is a korean who is currently living in Korea, therefore, according to your own rules, he should not be allowed to participate.
Whenever he moves back to the U.S., his case should be reconsidered based on his participation in the foreign BW scene. However this rule doesn't mention how to decide based on his participation. So all i can do is summarize his participation (or at least what i found on tlnet).
Major tournaments 2008 Razer TSL - Scan played but he was banned due to cheating. 2011 AoV iCCup StarLeague - Scan won it. 2011 Reality-Defined.com Winners Tournament - Scan won it. 2013 ICCup Ladder Main Event 1 - Scan won it
Defiler tournaments 2011-2012: at least 9x won, 5x second 2014-2015: Scan won all the 5 defiler tourneys that were held recently.
Other -Scan won the iccup ladder several times -Scan occasionally posts on TLnet -Scan released some of his replays recently
I just wrote down some facts
Except that zimp ignored the only relevant part to Scan's case. Stratos already refuted it:
On July 18 2015 06:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Your lawyering doesn't quite work here, zimp. Besides what was already mentioned, Scan streams on twitch, interacts with viewers in English, brings us behind the scene info and helps us translate stuff.
The way I see it, this TLS is built around the idea that it's for the foreign scene and its communities. Korean or Mongolian, Scan is a part of this community, and he's even a contributing member. If Bisu wants to become a part of TL or reps.ru pr psistorm or whatever, then he'd be allowed too.
So this is how the league was conceived by the ppl who organize it. You can discuss whether that concept is good or bad forever but lawyering and providing claims about Scan's nationality is a waste of everyone's time. The question you want to be asking in that regard is: Is Scan a TLer? But we all know the answer to that. And he's a great TLer at that.
Also, if we actually let the few interested Koreans become a full part of our community, we can gain and learn a lot from them. Basically, the benefits of living in Korean BW environment would be that much closer to us. So it's not like this is a one-way service at all. Scan is a perfect example of that.
In my understanding of the rules, Scan simply falls into the korean category, therefore he is not even an edge case as long as he is residing in Korea, so the "and others" part can not be relevant to Scan's case.
To clarify more, i think the current rules enroll the player candidates into 3 main categories, and the another 3 sub-category for the third category:
Group 1 Foreign (eligible to play). Group 2 Korean/Chinese (not eligible to play). <- Scan right now Group 3 Edge cases (considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene). a) Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China <- Scan when livig in the U.S. b) non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China c) others (?? dogs and cats etc.?)
I understand it that you want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. And you think Scan is a part of it so you allow him to play. But the current rules don't say this. As JieXian previously mentioned it, it's bad communication.
Up 'till this was my lawyering. Below in spoiler is my opinion.
Besides the rules problem, I also admit that i think Scan doesn't deserve to play in a foreign event. Firstly, he is korean. Yet he got a chance to play in a previous event and what did he do? He cheated. So, secondly, he doesn't strike me as a nice guy (like Movie or Bisu for example). He often gets to a flame war with other people on the forum. He often humiliates his opponents and his allies. Even just reading his chats gives you a feeling of an agressive, selfish person. Certainly not humble, like the behavior you would expect from someone who is trying to earn your trust back after cheating. And thirdly, - and this is somewhat connected to the first point - he is too good. He won almost all the foreign events he took part in, basicly destroying the competition. Now it's important to note that neither of these traits would be enough alone to cause these feelings. Michael is somewhat korean, yet he was okay to participate. Julia is somewhat bad mannered, lol so what. Sziky is too good, but it's not unfair. But Scan is all these 3 combined, which is too much for me, and apparently for other people too. Now Scan tries to compensate for these with a little forum activity, that apparently persuades the organizers to allow him to participate. Also they don't want to be rude and exclude someone who helped them in translating something and they have every right to do that way. We're thankful for their work anyway and respecting their decision, but its difficult for me to agree with it -.- Now after all this too much fuss, i'm actually a bit excited about how Scan's games will go.
The video was funny, but even though the creator said we shouldn't take it seriously, it actually describes the problem somewhat accurately.
Up 'till this was my lawyering. Below in spoiler is my opinion. ''zimp'' not only you :D therefore I love you :D u not idiot. a story and I'm done. When come sc2 and all out im too(but not play sc2) when i see revived im back and I met iccup ladder scan! we played 3 game maybe. all rape me im said u gosu and i said im not play 3 mounth bw, so im bad. scan said me 6 mounth not play I knew it was a stupid especially when not sc2 scan where? I heard morea bad not only abuser for scan this old story ok but fact never respect to another(minimal), uppish, and more but im english bad. No matter how many times I won against him, scan always found objections my opinion he angry beacause a nobody(me) more time beat five.(and know this guys this is a big deal if you look at 100(sziky)-300(scan) when more time scout me one game win and no add re or when add re need to wait 5 min all time bm for me (because this= bm ) and im still said "" someone wrote im bm only When they bm too another first. i said now sincere and when we play others. im very not like this guy but not said any comment go ban. if play play. but annoying and not to build, destroy foreign bw(my opinion) im learned new english word ur happy scan? and i know your still school not need again write . im write only because who knows how long here me I see more people not like me, It does not recognize that I reached many things. pls any1 said again me english and estonia and im join lrm for x dollars. and said when i loss progamer win It does not matter ah said when 1 dollar donats for stream and not when more 20 said when scan have 80 viewers i have 20 not when i have 100 scan 50. need stop tl see :D im angry Every time I see a lot of stupid. but are reaching im play sc2 but not problem here for you scan bb.
On July 24 2015 06:19 sas.Sziky wrote: Up 'till this was my lawyering. Below in spoiler is my opinion. ''zimp'' not only you :D therefore I love you :D u not idiot. a story and I'm done. When come sc2 and all out im too(but not play sc2) when i see revived im back and I met iccup ladder scan! we played 3 game maybe. all rape me im said u gosu and i said im not play 3 mounth bw, so im bad. scan said me 6 mounth not play I knew it was a stupid especially when not sc2 scan where? I heard morea bad not only abuser for scan this old story ok but fact never respect to another(minimal), uppish, and more but im english bad. No matter how many times I won against him, scan always found objections my opinion he angry beacause a nobody(me) more time beat five.(and know this guys this is a big deal if you look at 100(sziky)-300(scan) when more time scout me one game win and no add re or when add re need to wait 5 min all time bm for me (because this= bm ) and im still said "" someone wrote im bm only When they bm too another first. i said now sincere and when we play others. im very not like this guy but not said any comment go ban. if play play. but annoying and not to build, destroy foreign bw(my opinion) im learned new english word ur happy scan? and i know your still school not need again write . im write only because who knows how long here me I see more people not like me, It does not recognize that I reached many things. pls any1 said again me english and estonia and im join lrm for x dollars. and said when i loss progamer win It does not matter ah said when 1 dollar donats for stream and not when more 20 said when scan have 80 viewers i have 20 not when i have 100 scan 50. need stop tl see :D im angry Every time I see a lot of stupid. but are reaching im play sc2 but not problem here for you scan bb.
What I gathered from this is that you came back to iCCup when Foreign BW was being revived by this tournament, you've been inactive for 3 months, scan said he hasn't played in 6 months ( where would he be sc2? ) , you heard about scan's previous abuse in TSL, when he wins he makes you wait for re games, and you re immediately which is BM for him. Scan playing in this TLS is killing foreign BW, and you or scan are going to play SC2 now or something? Sorry, doing my best to understand Szisky.
I think the best conclusion is that Scan is killing foreign bw.
To clarify more, i think the current rules enroll the player candidates into 3 main categories, and the another 3 sub-category for the third category:
Group 1 Foreign (eligible to play). Group 2 Korean/Chinese (not eligible to play). <- Scan right now Group 3 Edge cases (considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene). a) Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China <- Scan when livig in the U.S. b) non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China c) others (?? dogs and cats etc.?)
On July 24 2015 06:19 sas.Sziky wrote: Up 'till this was my lawyering. Below in spoiler is my opinion. ''zimp'' not only you :D therefore I love you :D u not idiot. a story and I'm done. When come sc2 and all out im too(but not play sc2) when i see revived im back and I met iccup ladder scan! we played 3 game maybe. all rape me im said u gosu and i said im not play 3 mounth bw, so im bad. scan said me 6 mounth not play I knew it was a stupid especially when not sc2 scan where? I heard morea bad not only abuser for scan this old story ok but fact never respect to another(minimal), uppish, and more but im english bad. No matter how many times I won against him, scan always found objections my opinion he angry beacause a nobody(me) more time beat five.(and know this guys this is a big deal if you look at 100(sziky)-300(scan) when more time scout me one game win and no add re or when add re need to wait 5 min all time bm for me (because this= bm ) and im still said "" someone wrote im bm only When they bm too another first. i said now sincere and when we play others. im very not like this guy but not said any comment go ban. if play play. but annoying and not to build, destroy foreign bw(my opinion) im learned new english word ur happy scan? and i know your still school not need again write . im write only because who knows how long here me I see more people not like me, It does not recognize that I reached many things. pls any1 said again me english and estonia and im join lrm for x dollars. and said when i loss progamer win It does not matter ah said when 1 dollar donats for stream and not when more 20 said when scan have 80 viewers i have 20 not when i have 100 scan 50. need stop tl see :D im angry Every time I see a lot of stupid. but are reaching im play sc2 but not problem here for you scan bb.
What I gathered from this is that you came back to iCCup when Foreign BW was being revived by this tournament, you've been inactive for 3 months, scan said he hasn't played in 6 months ( where would he be sc2? ) , you heard about scan's previous abuse in TSL, when he wins he makes you wait for re games, and you re immediately which is BM for him. Scan playing in this TLS is killing foreign BW, and you or scan are going to play SC2 now or something? Sorry, doing my best to understand Szisky.
I think the best conclusion is that Scan is killing foreign bw.
he is talking about when sc2 comes out and he played Scan after some time inactive and when loss scan told him that actually he was 6 months inactive ,and he knew scan was bm and a kid ? ;
On July 24 2015 05:19 zimp wrote: he doesn't strike me as a nice guy (like Movie or Bisu for example)
Why are Movie / Bisu not a nice guy again? I must have missed this.
sorry, maybe my english is not good enough. i meant nice guy, like Movie or Bisu = Movie and Bisu are examples for nice guys. maybe the corrrect grammatical phrase is "unlike"
To clarify more, i think the current rules enroll the player candidates into 3 main categories, and the another 3 sub-category for the third category:
Group 1 Foreign (eligible to play). Group 2 Korean/Chinese (not eligible to play). <- Scan right now Group 3 Edge cases (considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene). a) Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China <- Scan when livig in the U.S. b) non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China c) others (?? dogs and cats etc.?)
On July 24 2015 05:19 zimp wrote: he doesn't strike me as a nice guy (like Movie or Bisu for example)
Why are Movie / Bisu not a nice guy again? I must have missed this.
sorry, maybe my english is not good enough. i meant nice guy, like Movie or Bisu = Movie and Bisu are example for nice guys. maybe the corrrect grammatical phrase is "unlike"
i understood what u wanted to tell,but maybe is cuz im terrible at english? -_-
Who the fuck is Julia? Fake olympic (new easy system) rank zerg? The one who got his liquipedia not long ago (did he write it?). He don't even got real name in his bio. It's laughable to create a page and make him look like he is a newschool progamer when he don't have even 1 achievement. I would say he is B rank scrub who wants to make a name for himself. And he is trashtalking here about Scan like he is someone who everyone should listen to. I'm glad that he is gonna tear you apart. As a fan I want action, not trashtalk/trolling. Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
"Now Scan tries to compensate for these with a little forum activity, that apparently persuades the organizers to allow him to participate."
1) There are people out there still hating me(Sziky would be a great example), and I do not want to deal with it. Simple. 2) I've got accepted and requested by TL staffs to come back to TL.NET. The point is, How long ago? Not even 1 year yet. 3) I started to deliver a big and nice news(LoveTV, 41TV, and others, I do not follow very much) to everyone. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/472080-ongamenet-to-host-10th-sbenu-starleague Note: Thank you for some other helps and updates by other TL members while I was gone because of school and others. 4) I don't post very much, but I check out and read frequently. (Reason stated on the top).
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
I saw some of your posts , are u Scan ?
With all due espect you sound silly with your statement. Don't you think that Scan got followers, the ones who cheer for him? He is best TL/iCCup/(post)Foreign(non kespa/post kespa player) BW player here, you must admit it.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
I saw some of your posts , are u Scan ?
With all due espect you sound silly with your statement. Don't you think that Scan got followers, the ones who cheer for him? He is best TL/iCCup/(post)Foreign(non kespa/post kespa player) BW player here, you must admit it.
Thats because he is a Korean that practiced with Korean pro gamers, not foreigners. He is Korean, not a Foreigner. He played in KR / Chinese events. He is Korean, not a foreigner. Scientific breakdown :
Foreigner in BW : Someone who is not Korean, sometimes a Korean can be at the foreigner level, when they cannot or do not practice with Korean pro gamers, and at the top level of play. Korean in BW : Someone who is Korean
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
I saw some of your posts , are u Scan ?
With all due espect you sound silly with your statement. Don't you think that Scan got followers, the ones who cheer for him? He is best TL/iCCup/(post)Foreign(non kespa/post kespa player) BW player here, you must admit it.
Thats because he is a Korean that practiced with Korean pro gamers, not foreigners. He is Korean, not a Foreigner. He played in KR / Chinese events. He is Korean, not a foreigner. Scientific breakdown :
Foreigner in BW : Someone who is not Korean, sometimes a Korean can be at the foreigner level, when they cannot or do not practice with Korean pro gamers, and at the top level of play. Korean in BW : Someone who is Korean
OK, you WIN! GGNORE! But still Rus_Brain allowed Scan to participate.
Спонсор, чего ты молчишь? Разреши его и все будет ОК. Эти иностранные полу игроки , сами блядь не могут дойти до уровня Скана теперь рвут нежное место ибо ссыкуны. Йа ни магу паверить чито тахой баттхёрт слушился из-за адного играка. А кстати ща обявятся гугл переводчики.
Also, everybody busy with keyboard warrioring, and nobody gave a fuck about my bracket, but even Rus_Brain said things about handicape match in his early posts(I discovered it so sudden after my idea):
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
Handicap bo3 0:1 losing Scan will fit the puzzle
On July 23 2015 07:38 outscar wrote: I came up with some specific uncommon but pleasant idea for foreigner players. What If we arrange some hardcore handicap for our lovely "edge case" Korean?
In order to start bo3/5 without a loss with default score at elimination bracket Scan needs to win extra 1 game first then he needs to proceed to his bo3/5 series. If he fails to win 1st game the opponent will take 1-0 lead. We can call it HANDICAP ROUND. I photoshopped my way:
I mean if ro8/semifinals are all bo3 - and if Scan loses a game at HR then his opponent needs to win just a game to eliminate him.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: Prove yourself as a part of foreign gamers.
On July 24 2015 07:52 outscar wrote: foreign
Scan is Korean, shouldn't even be considered part of the "Foreign BW scene" as he plays in Korean and Chinese events lol
TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese).
I think getting raped by korean who started his journey at iCCup (correct me if I'm mistaken) will strengthen the activity of the foreign BW scene and push them for new acts of bravery for sure. Instead of watching boring games we gonna have some quality "tape" of those "scenes" of violence. You get it?
I saw some of your posts , are u Scan ?
With all due espect you sound silly with your statement. Don't you think that Scan got followers, the ones who cheer for him? He is best TL/iCCup/(post)Foreign(non kespa/post kespa player) BW player here, you must admit it.
Thats because he is a Korean that practiced with Korean pro gamers, not foreigners. He is Korean, not a Foreigner. He played in KR / Chinese events. He is Korean, not a foreigner. Scientific breakdown :
Foreigner in BW : Someone who is not Korean, sometimes a Korean can be at the foreigner level, when they cannot or do not practice with Korean pro gamers, and at the top level of play. Korean in BW : Someone who is Korean
OK, you WIN! GGNORE! But still Rus_Brain allowed Scan to participate.
Спонсор, чего ты молчишь? Разреши его и все будет ОК. Эти иностранные полу игроки , сами блядь не могут дойти до уровня Скана теперь рвут нежное место ибо ссыкуны. Йа ни магу паверить чито тахой баттхёрт слушился из-за адного играка. А кстати ща обявятся гугл переводчики.
Also, everybody busy with keyboard warrioring, and nobody gave a fuck about my bracket, but even Rus_Brain said things about handicape match in his early posts(I discovered it so sudden after my idea):
On July 18 2015 23:38 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with 1sh2sh3sh that the rules indicate scan should not be allowed to play regardless of whether he is currently banned from TL or not. He is living in korea and participating in the professional scene there (the sospa scene) as well as the chinese professional scene...that definitely seems to make him ineligible to me.
This is questionable.
1) The Chinese scene at least used to be open to foreigners and Scan wasn't the only one competing there. I definitely remember that Dewalt and Defi played and did comparatively well. Also, Scan did play a ton, he got where he is now from the States, not from Korea. "Anyone" could have done that. By banning him now you would actually punish him for improving, while the underlying message of the announce said it should try to motivate people. That's a contradiction.
On July 23 2015 07:38 outscar wrote: I came up with some specific uncommon but pleasant idea for foreigner players. What If we arrange some hardcore handicap for our lovely "edge case" Korean?
In order to start bo3/5 without a loss with default score at elimination bracket Scan needs to win extra 1 game first then he needs to proceed to his bo3/5 series. If he fails to win 1st game the opponent will take 1-0 lead. We can call it HANDICAP ROUND. I photoshopped my way:
I mean if ro8/semifinals are all bo3 - and if Scan loses a game at HR then his opponent needs to win just a game to eliminate him.
I love it, so create a handicap for the guy that shouldn't be allowed to play, then when he still wins because he beat the said player a game or two more, everyone will be happy? Makes perfect sense.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: End of discussion.
Final word has been already spoken. You can argue all you want, but it will not change. Accept it and play, or don't play.
Does not bother me, if you think Scan should play or should not, i dont understand how you go on to ignore what has already been communicated as the final decision on the subject. Show some respect to the Tournament Organisation, they can run their tournament how they choose.
Everyone, we are all adults. I think the objective of TLCS was just to stimulate interest in Brood War again. Let's just play our best and try to have fun. If we get destroyed by Scan, then so be it. Learn something from it.
Now personally I like Scan (ye I do, so sue me) and I was always happy to see him in defiler tournaments playing with foreigners. Yet reading this thread one must admit that him playing in the tournament is hurting the comunity badly simply because the foreigners wont train as hard as they would if Scan wasnt here. You tell them to go practice hard and try to beat him but we all know thats impossible. In every video game or sport for that matter the key to improving your skills is practice but there's a certain simetry in it. Meaning if you play long enough on level A then sooner or latter your skills will be at level A. But you will never become A by practicing with Cs. In this current case since scan is korean he is able to practice with pros (Zero for example) which will result in him vastly improving his skills reaching their level. In the same time if a foreigner is determined to practice hard he would be able to play with Eon, Tehnics, Lancer, Trucacz.. hell even Sziky. And let me put this straight you will never (ever) get on Scan's level by practicing with any of those guys, its that simple and thats the ever limiting factor for the foreigners and the reason why there are foreigner (non korean) events.
P.S. It doesn't really matter if Sziky is beatable or not, he is not as good as Scan and what matters most is that many of the foreigners believe him to be beatable so him participating wont stop them from practicing on their maximum. And even if he turns out to be unbeatable the 2nd place is still enough of an insentive to fight for. You guys think that not allowing scan to play here will be too harsh for him considering his activity in the foreign scene and thats true. But this basically right call is resulting in diminishing the very goal this tournament is trying to achieve - revive the foreign comunity and therefore you should have made a decision that serves the best interest of the comunity as a whole because at the end of the day Scan is just 1 korean player who will sooner or latter go into the korean pro scene and leave the foreign one. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.
P.S.2 I realise that decision is been made I just share my point of view.
Scan' s position is unique within this community. You had that somewhat with Pro7ect , but no one ever made a fuss about that; People are arguing and getting angry because Scan is very good player and has high chances of winning these tournaments. If he where not so good this would not be an issue. And this is just the point of the iceberg, the issue has been on since longer than this thread.
The reasons to take into account his legitimacy must be made from an Objective point of view. Skill has nothing to do with that. Place of birth, Knowledge of western culture, and where his actually lived during his life are much more better indicator of weather you would consider him foreigner or not.
If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 25 2015 05:45 GeckoXp wrote: god, you're like the internet explorer of this discussion. let's all repeat the same arguments and don't anticipate the upcoming tour tomorrow.
I was just waiting for you to say something Gecko, it is starting to feel more and more like old times again with your banter.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason....
EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5?
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason....
EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5?
I dunno, I'm super busy with my business at the moment but I probably would have played for fun if this hadn't gone down the way it has.
I originally didn't care and thought "well, it's their tournament... they can do whatever they want". After reading the out-cry and people refusing to play because of the decision, I changed my mind.
I firmly believe that many times you have to listen to people and not be stubborn. In business, this is especially true. You have to listen to your customers and act accordingly.
I look at it like this:
If the admins of this tournament really cared about increasing the activity of the foreign SC:BW scene, they would listen to the foreign community and act accordingly. It's unquestionable after reading this thread that almost no one wants him to play and it's a fact that many top foreigners aren't playing because of him.
I also think that if Scan actually cared about the foreign scene, he would gracefully bow out. It's undeniable that if this decision was reversed, altered, or Scan dropped out, the foreign community as well as this tournament would have a bigger spike in activity and players, including many of the top foreigners. Scan isn't dropping out because he doesn't care. He wants his easy money and the admins here are too stubborn to reverse their decision.
Even if the admins here realize that their decision is hurting their supposed goal (which I'm sure they do), the reason they are not going to reverse it or alter it is purely out of pride and ego. Personally, I think decisions made on pride and ego are usually stupid ones and this is no exception.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
I thought about this a lot when we were first discussing it in staff forums. First, there is a significant difference between Scan's and Sea's participation in the foreign BW scene. For example, Sea didn't play in a single foreign BW tournament, while Scan played in tons of them (it's weird how it's only now becoming a problem, mainly because Scan kept playing and practicing - while being in US mind you - while everyone else stopped playing). Not to mention the participation in our forums, writing guides, streaming on TL etc.
Second, Sea has an unfair advantage over foreigners by participating in the offline Korean tournaments that foreigners are not privy to. As I said before, if Scan starts doing the same we would be willing to reconsider his status.
But besides all that, I'd like to address this point that seems to be repeated here every so often. That we're actually discouraging the foreign BW players from participating in the tournament because the Scan is in it. I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run.
I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama.
The biggest goal we're trying to achieve here is to make people care. Care about the tournament, care enough to practice that one proxy 2gate build to take down your opponent, care about our stream and tune in every saturday to watch some BW, care about the players themselves that would make you post and participate in the discussion in the forums, care enough to fight with the organizers for 18 pages how you only have a chance at 2nd place, etc.
While allowing Scan in the tournament might not help us achieve all of our goals, we just had to do what seemed right to us and not care about pleasing the community in the short term, by pumping a couple of thousand of bucks in the scene.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason....
EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5?
It's undeniable that if this decision was reversed, altered, or Scan dropped out, the foreign community as well as this tournament would have a bigger spike in activity and players, including many of the top foreigners.
This is a delusion that only seems true because undoubtedly we would get a few more sign-ups from very people who are protesting here. Very little would change outside of that.
On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote: Even if the admins here realize that their decision is hurting their supposed goal (which I'm sure they do), the reason they are not going to reverse it or alter it is purely out of pride and ego. Personally, I think decisions made on pride and ego are usually stupid ones and this is no exception.
We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us if we want to actually see the results of our discussion before we start thinking of reversing everything we discussed so far based on the knee-jerk reaction of few players who thought could earn some money if only we eliminate all competition for them. Weird how very few of D players are actually complaining about Scan.
I like Scan a lot, hes a genuine and straight up guy imo. And he has been practicing this game like nothing else. He puts in so much effort in being good and better than anyone else it's actually insane how much motivation he has.
Weirdly and strangely i rarely from all these years I've been active on tl.net or any other site seen a person like Scan(korean) be apart of this community for so long and yes he did stupid stuffs in his past which MANY has and i won't mention cause it doesn't belong here..
The part where i can understand the foreign scene is where the foreigners has very little type of practice and wants to keep this game alive by playing every foreign tournament there is and having a chance of winning, joining a tournament u won't win is ALMOST pointless for them, only thing they get out from it is more publicity and perhaps practice.
I want Scan to participate only because i think he tries so hard to become the best and wants to be apart of this community. And also not to be stupid here he wants the money, who doesn't? That's a bit of the competitive scene these days to earn money and make a living.
I also think that if this tournament was non-korean and only foreigners yes more people would participate and perhaps revive the foreign scene a little bit which i HOPE to death it will happen.
But i don't know the people behind this tournament draws the last straw and decides which plays and who doesn't. So lets just let them handle it. Like i said i understand some of the frustrations in this thread and that's why we have forums to discuss the matters and what people think.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
I thought about this a lot when we were first discussing it in staff forums. First, there is a significant difference between Scan's and Sea's participation in the foreign BW scene. For example, Sea didn't play in a single foreign BW tournament, while Scan played in tons of them (it's weird how it's only now becoming a problem, mainly because Scan kept playing and practicing - while being in US mind you - while everyone else stopped playing). Not to mention the participation in our forums, writing guides, streaming on TL etc.
Second, Sea has an unfair advantage over foreigners by participating in the offline Korean tournaments that foreigners are not privy to. As I said before, if Scan starts doing the same we would be willing to reconsider his status.
But besides all that, I'd like to address this point that seems to be repeated here every so often. That we're actually discouraging the foreign BW players from participating in the tournament because the Scan is in it. I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run.
I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama.
The biggest goal we're trying to achieve here is to make people care. Care about the tournament, care enough to practice that one proxy 2gate build to take down your opponent, care about our stream and tune in every saturday to watch some BW, care about the players themselves that would make you post and participate in the discussion in the forums, care enough to fight with the organizers for 18 pages how you only have a chance at 2nd place, etc.
While allowing Scan in the tournament might not help us achieve all of our goals, we just had to do what seemed right to us and not care about pleasing the community in the short term, by pumping a couple of thousand of bucks in the scene.
You are going about this all wrong. It's great that you're trying to revive stuff and that money is being thrown into the community but you are handling it all wrong.
If you think having less players playing is good... you are wrong.
If you think having a Korean player play in a foreign tournament thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months is the right decision... you are wrong.
If you think not listening to the community is a good thing... you are wrong.
If you think the possibility of 2nd place makes people practice hard and care... you are wrong.
If you think it's the right decision to keep Scan... you are wrong.
The statement I bolded up top just proves that this decision is purely out of pride/ego.
It's clear your decision is wrong despite you stating "what seemed right to us". Right on what level? A principal level? I don't mind decisions based on a principal but if your main goal is truly to make people care, you are again, going at it wrong.
Let's be clear here. You may get a few people playing again from this but you won't get anything like you would if you reversed this decision. Look at the top foreign guys for a second. They got that good because they love the game. If you get them to actually play the game for a few months and care about this tournament, they are more likely to stick around and continue playing/streaming. If they hate your tournament and don't play, what are the chances they will stick around and continue playing/streaming? I'll give you a hint. It's NONE! This was designed to incentivize people to play and get involved and it's not doing that to it's full effect. You are truly just going about this all wrong.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason....
EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5?
It's undeniable that if this decision was reversed, altered, or Scan dropped out, the foreign community as well as this tournament would have a bigger spike in activity and players, including many of the top foreigners.
This is a delusion that only seems true because undoubtedly we would get a few more sign-ups from very people who are protesting here. Very little would change outside of that.
On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote: Even if the admins here realize that their decision is hurting their supposed goal (which I'm sure they do), the reason they are not going to reverse it or alter it is purely out of pride and ego. Personally, I think decisions made on pride and ego are usually stupid ones and this is no exception.
We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us if we want to actually see the results of our discussion before we start thinking of reversing everything we discussed so far based on the knee-jerk reaction of few players who thought could earn some money if only we eliminate all competition for them. Weird how very few of D players are actually complaining about Scan.
How it is a delusion if there will "undoubtedly" be more sign-ups?
Oh and please don't state you take the community's feedback very seriously. You literally JUST SAID that you don't care about pleasing the community right now.
You want to know why you don't hear D players complaining about Scan? It's because they don't care. They don't expect to post any good results and don't see it being worth their time to complain about who beats them. You were saying earlier that you wanted to increase people streaming. You think these D players are going to stream their asses off and a bunch of people are going to get up and eagerly watch them? The answer is no.
On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote: i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate. personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever.
My hero!
Agree about the maps... It's 2015, we should be using the newest maps i.e SSL. I don't know what's the obsession with Tau Cross and Paranoid android, those are more reasons to not play than Scan or Sziky being participants.
On July 21 2015 22:25 Eywa- wrote: Jesus, I know you guys don't like all of the top players complaining that they can't beat Scan, but trying to convince everyone that they can and they're just cowards makes it worse. I'll give you guys 1:1 odds with me betting for Scan to win the entire event ~ barring anyone paying him off... I bet none of you will take it. You probably aren't willing to do 2:1 odds, if that's the case... You shouldn't be arguing anything based on skill or saying anything about how the other players are scared and just need practice and "man up". Any practice most foreigners can get, Scan can get more and in better quality. On top of that, the starting level is not even comparable.
The rules of the tournament are set by the organizers, and you can argue Scan both ways based on his nationality, you can argue it both ways based on his past and you can argue it both ways for what actually benefits the scene... In the end, I do think letting Scan play is the more respectable decision, it's tough to say if it's the better decision for the scene in general ~ I don't think anyone can confirm either way.
Every organization makes mistakes, every organization makes good decisions which fans/players consider to be mistakes and every organization makes bad decisions which are largely considered good by fans/players.
~ This is just fan opinion, but I guess my initial thought going into this post was just to say that everyone should look at how their posting contributes to the drama as opposed to just pointing at the players making drama over the issue.
I sympathize with the players, and the organization.
Why isn't this cockroach banned? Someone who's words have zero weight is trying to make a bet? It's Joekim2.0!
I'm done here. I've said my peace. I'd say "You'll recognize that you're going about this wrong or you won't" but recognizing the mistake isn't the problem here. It's swallowing pride and doing what should be done for the betterment of the community. Apparently that's a big thing to ask though. Good luck with the tournament, hope you achieve what you wanted to achieve.
I've been away from bw staff discussions and decisions for awhile, but whatever the reason for sticking to the original plan, I think it is rather presumptuous to identify the leading problem as a matter of pride.
On July 25 2015 08:31 Falling wrote: I've been away from bw staff discussions and decisions for awhile, but whatever the reason for sticking to the original plan, I think it is rather presumptuous to identify the leading problem as a matter of pride.
It's that or stupidity (sorry but I lack a better word for it at the moment). Which is a better presumption? I like to give people the benefit of doubt.
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
I thought about this a lot when we were first discussing it in staff forums. First, there is a significant difference between Scan's and Sea's participation in the foreign BW scene. For example, Sea didn't play in a single foreign BW tournament, while Scan played in tons of them (it's weird how it's only now becoming a problem, mainly because Scan kept playing and practicing - while being in US mind you - while everyone else stopped playing). Not to mention the participation in our forums, writing guides, streaming on TL etc.
Second, Sea has an unfair advantage over foreigners by participating in the offline Korean tournaments that foreigners are not privy to. As I said before, if Scan starts doing the same we would be willing to reconsider his status.
But besides all that, I'd like to address this point that seems to be repeated here every so often. That we're actually discouraging the foreign BW players from participating in the tournament because the Scan is in it. I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run.
I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama.
The biggest goal we're trying to achieve here is to make people care. Care about the tournament, care enough to practice that one proxy 2gate build to take down your opponent, care about our stream and tune in every saturday to watch some BW, care about the players themselves that would make you post and participate in the discussion in the forums, care enough to fight with the organizers for 18 pages how you only have a chance at 2nd place, etc.
While allowing Scan in the tournament might not help us achieve all of our goals, we just had to do what seemed right to us and not care about pleasing the community in the short term, by pumping a couple of thousand of bucks in the scene.
If you think having less players playing is good... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: If you think having a Korean player play in a foreign tournament thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months is the right decision... you are wrong.
What does someone's ethnicity has to do with with this? We had a Hungarian player play in a foreign tournament (TLS1/2/3) thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months (and hey, we proved ourselves right!).
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: If you think not listening to the community is a good thing... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: If you think the possibility of 2nd place makes people practice hard and care... you are wrong.
I don't think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: If you think it's the right decision to keep Scan... you are wrong.
I do think this.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: The statement I bolded up top just proves that this decision is purely out of pride/ego.
... how?
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: It's clear your decision is wrong despite you stating "what seemed right to us". Right on what level? A principal level? I don't mind decisions based on a principal but if your main goal is truly to make people care, you are again, going at it wrong.
Yes, on a principal level. Banning a member of our community from our own tournament seemed wrong to us.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: Let's be clear here. You may get a few people playing again from this but you won't get anything like you would if you reversed this decision. Look at the top foreign guys for a second. They got that good because they love the game. If you get them to actually play the game for a few months and care about this tournament, they are more likely to stick around and continue playing/streaming. If they hate your tournament and don't play, what are the chances they will stick around and continue playing/streaming? I'll give you a hint. It's NONE! This was designed to incentivize people to play and get involved and it's not doing that to it's full effect. You are truly just going about this all wrong.
This is something we're willing to discuss after we get real, empirical data. If we start budging to every request a minority of players, especially those who are biased because their shot at the money is in jeopardy, what do we do when people start requesting that we ban Sziky because he's too good?
On July 25 2015 05:22 GGzerG wrote: If Scan is allowed to play, doors should be open to all Koreans really, what sense does this make to call this a "Tournament for the Foreign BW Scene" when there is a over 90% chance that Scan will win every single Cup + The Championship and he isn't a foreigner? Scan doesn't even play at the Foreigner level, how many other foreigners do we have in this "BW Foreign Scene" that play at the same level of Scan? None.
I understand me saying this is not going to change anything, I just hope after Scan wins every single cup + the championship, we will all realize how pointless this was, and how little this is helping BW foreign scene's growth.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that we want a tournament for the foreign BW scene. Scan is a part of the foreign BW scene and has been for years. End of discussion.
Just to be clear. If you didn't allow Scan to play, there would be more people coming back and playing. I hope this isn't confusing by any means to you.
Also, if you are going to stand by this (which is fine imo), why not let other Korean and Chinese foreign contributors play? Sea would be a perfect example. He speaks good English, he has done a lot of things with the Foreign community, and was even on a foreign team called TeamLiquid previously.
With guys like that, at least you'll draw a crowd of people who want to play despite being raped because it's Sea. No one wants to play Scan because he's Scan. Tons would want to play Sea because he's Sea.
If you truly want to revive the foreign scene a bit, you're going about it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you so much for this logical voice of reason....
EDIT : So sad, I just checked registered players, I thought I saw your name on the list G5. Would you have played had Scan not been in the tournament G5?
It's undeniable that if this decision was reversed, altered, or Scan dropped out, the foreign community as well as this tournament would have a bigger spike in activity and players, including many of the top foreigners.
This is a delusion that only seems true because undoubtedly we would get a few more sign-ups from very people who are protesting here. Very little would change outside of that.
On July 25 2015 07:18 G5 wrote: Even if the admins here realize that their decision is hurting their supposed goal (which I'm sure they do), the reason they are not going to reverse it or alter it is purely out of pride and ego. Personally, I think decisions made on pride and ego are usually stupid ones and this is no exception.
We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us if we want to actually see the results of our discussion before we start thinking of reversing everything we discussed so far based on the knee-jerk reaction of few players who thought could earn some money if only we eliminate all competition for them. Weird how very few of D players are actually complaining about Scan.
How is it a delusion if there will "undoubtedly" be more sign-ups?
We believe it wouldn't affect the activity in any significant way; perhaps even in a negative way. Hard to tell.
On July 25 2015 08:06 G5 wrote: Oh and please don't state you take the community's feedback very seriously. You literally JUST SAID that you don't care about pleasing the community right now.
We discuss internally everything that community posts to us. We reply to almost every post in this thread. However, we have yet to hear a single reason that we haven't already responded to yet, that would make us think "oh, that's a good point; i can't believe we missed that". Banning someone because he's "too good" is not a good reason. Banning someone because of their ethnicity is not a good reason. Banning someone because of his current location is not a good reason (unless it gives the person an unfair advantage as we already said).
In the end, I'll grant you that there seems to be a contradiction in my posts because we're seemingly trying to do two opposite things; keeping Scan in the tournament (because we don't want to ban member of our community from our own tournament) and increase the activity and motivation of the foreign BW scene (which according to you won't happen unless we ban Scan). Maybe I'm just an optimist and hope that both can coexist, or maybe I just want to wait until we see some results before going against our principles.
And please do not mistake this for an ego and pride decision. I try to do all my decisions based on a scientific data-driven process.
G5 I honestly don't see how you contributed to anything here. You brought but a few (very arguable) arguments, certainly nothing new, plenty of 'you are wrong', unnecessary negativity and near hysteria.
No tour < Scan tour, last time I checked.
As mentioned, the decision has been discussed before and so far we're at page 19 but no new arguments have been brought to the table. Apart from like 5 people saying they won't/may not play because of this decision, there's near zero data to work with and only very limited feedback. And therefore no reason to alter the decision, simple.
If people didn't work with data but with youtube comments, they wouldn't get very far.
So let's see what the tour brings short-term and long-term, learn from it and build on it. Positivity and team-work will certainly be important and it's nice to see top players like trutaCz stepping up to the challenge.
On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote: i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate. personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever.
My hero!
Agree about the maps... It's 2015, we should be using the newest maps i.e SSL. I don't know what's the obsession with Tau Cross and Paranoid android, those are more reasons to not play than Scan or Sziky being participants.
We agree that there was certain amount of nostalgia involved in choosing the maps
However, we're not adverse to changing the map pool every 5 tours or so based on the community's feedback.
On July 20 2015 01:45 skzlime wrote: i mostly agree with what dragon said and the way he said it. i think his concern holds truth, his arguments are fine, he isn't being overly dramatic, and he isn't a "little person" for speaking his mind in a well-mannered tone. however, i think scan should definitely be allowed to participate. personally i will probably not prepare as much if he does as i would otherwise (which is basically the main thing dragon was saying), but i might not prepare as much even if he didn't. who gives a shit? i don't think i should be "catered to" by banning scan because he further accumulated his skill advantage while i did other shit.
i also must say this huge break was a pretty fucking big letdown to the point where i didn't even care if this thing ever happened anymore, which i realise has already been apologised for profusely but whatever.
My hero!
Agree about the maps... It's 2015, we should be using the newest maps i.e SSL. I don't know what's the obsession with Tau Cross and Paranoid android, those are more reasons to not play than Scan or Sziky being participants.
We agree that there was certain amount of nostalgia involved in choosing the maps
However, we're not adverse to changing the map pool every 5 tours or so based on the community's feedback.
the discussion about the maps at least is not a fruitless and drama driven thing. And TL has made it clear, they are taking the concerns about the maps very serious and think about fixing Paranoid android.
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
Please consider my post with an open mind and just think of the overall community. Sometimes it isn't fair and if Scan gets the short end of the stick... it is what it is. Can't please everyone, but we CAN please the majority.
Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes for an interesting precedent: voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with any other dominant player such as sziky. It's tricky, though, as past TLS events were not set up to be like the DRTL and CRTL's where there is a cap on skill.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
On July 25 2015 10:03 Falling wrote: Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes an interesting precedent, voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with any other dominant player such as sziky. It's tricky though as past TLS events were not set up to be like the DRTL and CRTL's where there is a cap on skill.
When I say "too good" - the skill gap is FAR too large. Even if we take sziky, technics, draw, etc and other tops - their skill to Scan is still 4-5 ranks differing. It's just different when using this notion of "too good" when speaking of Scan.
Once again - I don't really care which way it goes, I'm just thinking of the majority here. That's all.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out.
The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community.
As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
Feel like many people have forgot about Michael(OD) and Pro7ect.
They are Korean just like me. I do not know if they ever gave up Korean nationality, but they were in the foreign scene. I had seen Michael in fish and played ladder game, and I realized he was in Korea. He could be just like my case. Studying abroad and then finished his studies. We do not know because we don't have a lot of information about him.
I am also not sure about pro7ect, but there was one thing that he mentioned before was that he has to do the military service. Sounds like Korean men's duty, right?
Lastly I want everyone to know this. I did not beg TL admins to let me in. If they said no, then I would simply ask "why" and hear at least one reason from them. I also wouldn't try to get in by doing dirty actions like in the past.
I am just taking my opportunity, and I've also said on the stream channel that I would like to perform great games for the audience.
On July 25 2015 10:16 LaStScan wrote: Feel like many people have forgot about Michael(OD) and Pro7ect.
They are Korean just like me. I do not know if they ever gave up Korean nationality, but they were in the foreign scene. I had seen Michael in fish and played ladder game, and I realized he was in Korea. He could be just like my case. Studying abroad and then finished his studies. We do not know because we don't have a lot of information about him.
I am also not sure about pro7ect, but there was one thing that he mentioned before was that he has to do the military service. Sounds like Korean men's duty, right?
Lastly I want everyone to know this. I did not beg TL admins to let me in. If they said no, then I would simply ask "why" and hear at least one reason from them. I also wouldn't try to get in by doing dirty actions like in the past.
I am just taking my opportunity, and I've also said on the stream channel that I would like to perform great games for the audience.
Scan, I respect this. And you're totally right - there's no LOGICAL reasoning to have you out, except, as I think I said it best, that you're TOO good. I'm not saying it's fair at all to kick someone out for being as good as you are.
All I'm saying, Scan, is we should give the others a chance to vote on a matter like this.
1) Unfortunately, many would vote against you in their own self-interest (but that would mainly be other top players who think they have a chance if you are out).
2) Other lesser skilled players may very well vote to keep you in to see you "perform great games."
3) And other players like me, would vote "Indifferent." So, who knows.
I say have the vote and let it play out. It could work in your favor and then we can finally end this bickering. Based on the three points above, logic would have it that you may actually benefit in this and get voted to stay in.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
This was fun truly ^^
On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:
On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out.
The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community.
As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot.
But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
This was fun truly ^^
On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:
On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out.
The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community.
As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot.
But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise.
Thanks, Cele. Sorry - I thought you were just trolling. Apologies for the assumption
I just want folks to think this thru with an open-mind and TRY to be fair to the majority. Right now, it seems there's too much defense going into one person and I just find that it's not worth all this tension over one person, whether it's fair or not. We cannot limit these back-and-forth drama filled encounters without setting some sort of precedent here. And as I said in one of my posts before this one, it could very well work in Scan's favor if we vote. And if he just gets voted in, then there's no more bickering for players to have (well... there still may be, but it will be totally invalid and unmerited at that point).
And... if he gets voted out... well, at least we got an opportunity to please and service the majority. I feel that either outcome is a victory and can end this drama and will lead TLS into a good place moving forward without all this bad blood.
It is, logically, a win-win for everyone and the TL Staff. (obviously there would have to be strict rules set in place for the voting so that people cannot spam and make new accounts, etc, to skew the result set. But that is a different story which could be handled later to put a good system in place if the TL staff goes down this path).
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? Nobody who is clearly better then me, is elligible to play, coz i want that sweet money without having to train a lot
This was fun truly ^^
On July 25 2015 10:07 ProtossGG wrote:
On July 25 2015 10:03 Cele wrote:
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: All I want to say is this:
Kudos to the donator and the TL staff for organizing this event.
However, in organizing this, we want to make it fun and service the majority. I'm sorry, Scan, that you're too good and you've gotten this backlash for being so good.
My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here. It does stink for Scan, but do we really want to have this with everyone angry and upset? Do we want to keep the bickering? And most importantly, if the TL staff just rules with an iron fist and says, "If you don't like it, then GTFO," what will the tournament even be? Scan vs D- people? Because the majority of good players could rebel and drop out. Are we really going to put this much into defending just ONE PERSON (Scan)? Let's think of the majority and truly service them. Once again, if it EVER came to it, my apologies to Scan. But at some point you can't let everyone suffer for one person. I don't think the TL Staff wants to host this first major tournament in a while with bad blood and all the other top contenders being angry. Then future tournaments will also be tarnished. Set the precedent now (if the voting goes that way).
Otherwise, I agree with TechnicS - there are other koreans who you could argue are somewhat in the foreigner scene (or have been). Prime example: Sea. It would then be logical to let these types of koreans in, too.
good idea. Some people are already spamming new Account's in anticipation for this. I would love to see all this 1 post and zero post accounts to vote on this matter.
That's fine... it's simply an idea. Make it people with 500+ posts only can vote for all I care. Set a system around it. But I do think it's important to try and service the community here instead of saying, "If you don't like it, then get out!"
i think some of the players here who complained the most don't have 500 posts, but yeah i see your point.
There's no sense in trying to be facetious here... It's really folks trying to help and in their minds trying to make it fair. If you think this is all fun and games, that's fine, but leave the sarcasm out.
The point is this: No matter how any of us train, the skill set Scan has is EASILY 4-5 ranks above our 2nd best player (Sziky, let's say). And could probably win with his off race if he wants. It's a dangerous precedent, I know. Once again, let's please think of the community.
As I said, I don't care which way it goes. I'm truly trying to be an unbias party here and also give some insight into the mind of the other top contenders and shed some democracy here. I just didn't like going thru this thread and seeing "If you don't like it, GTFO!!" - kicking Scan out may not be right, but saying those words are not right either.
you might have misunderstood my tone becasue of my other statement in that post (which was pure sarcasm). But i actually honestly agree with you, that your idea is a decent idea. I personally would not like to see it happen, because i have a good amount of faith in the TL Tournament Organisation. These people work very hard on the tour and already said, they will change their mind, if empirical data leads them to do it and will change the rules if Scan get's more into the SOSPA Scene and play SSL or whatnot.
But doing it your way is better then having this incredibly drama thread, that leads to nothing but back and forth accusations. Your idea is constructive, decent and thought through. Im sorry if i offended you by making it sound otherwise.
Thanks, Cele. Sorry - I thought you were just trolling. Apologies for the assumption
i certainly was too sarcastic and that was not an okay thing to do of me. sorry
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed."
and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
edit:@ scans last post, with my proposed ruling, michael and project would both be allowed to play, given that they post on TL. They havent participated in the korean pro scene, only the foreign scene.
Scan I respect your skill and dont have anything against you as a person, but I believe that your place is in korean events, not foreign tournaments. You have many opportunities given your korean nationality, language and current location that the rest of us dont, and have practiced hard to get to an impressive skill level that more befits a top competitor there. Id be happy to see you go far in various sospa events and im sure many TLers would also cheer for you, but for you to participate in the TLS and other specifically foreign tournaments is not right imo.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed."
and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
Would revise it slightly to be:
"those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic)
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed."
and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
Would revise it slightly to be:
"those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic)
no, they did not to my knowledge. Im just thinking if that clause you created would have been the rule for TSL 2, Nony/idra/Ret wouldn't have played in it. Which i think leads to the problem. Players who competed in the korean professional scene (with no big time gap) have competed in foreigner Tournaments in the past. So why change now?
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
or "the edge cases (Koreans/chinese current residing ouside of korea/china, non-koreans/chinese currently residing in korea/china and others) will be considered based on their participation in the foreign BW scene, and their lack of participation in the korean professional scene. Any edge cases who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene are disallowed."
and btw I agree with most of what G5 said, and also with technics (and bulgariantoss's video too, aside from the humour it had really good points), although I would definitely not want to see even more koreans be invited. Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Also nobody is going to dispute szikys right to play in foreign bw tournaments, because hes a foreigner, not a korean playing in korea with korean pros and having participated in the korean pro scene. Sziky has crushed everyone, and no one is complaining about it, because they have no case whatsoever, it would be ludicrous to suggest sziky be banned from foreigner tournaments for being "too good". People are disputing scans right to play in foreign bw tournaments, not because he is too good, but because hes not a foreigner, hes a korean and participates in the korean pro scene. Being too good is a product of that, but not sole cause for ineligibility.
Would revise it slightly to be:
"those players who have competed in the past 2 years/are currently competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC"
The reason I put those changes is because, for instance, what if IdrA, NonY, Ret, etc want to come back. They all did play in Korea in Korean leagues/pro teams at one point. No one would refute any of those 3 players to come back. Just a minor adjustment otherwise. I know your second clause about "AND have korean citizenship" sort of rules these foreigners out. But I don't know if IdrA or someone may have actually gotten a citizenship since he was there for quite some time (just trying to cover all/any apparent holes in the logic)
no, they did not to my knowledge. Im just thinking if that clause you created would have been the rule for TSL 2, Nony/idra/Ret wouldn't have played in it. Which i think leads to the problem. Players who competed in the Korean professional scene (with no big time gap) have competed in foreigner Tournaments in the past. So why change now?
I don't think they were involved in the pro scene during TSL 2? I mean we have to check the facts, I suppose. Those were years ago so I'm not sure myself. I'm simply trying to concoct something that would still keep those players around but would vote players in Scan's position out.
Once again - instead of trying to make something in the rules, I am still a huge advocate of the voting proposition listed on Page 19 of this thread
nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
On July 25 2015 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
Agreed. They probably won't. But if we're going to set rules and various precedents, it's just best to think and cover all holes, gaps, and possibilities so things like this do not happen again in the future.
On July 25 2015 11:15 ProtossGG wrote: I don't think they were involved in the pro scene during TSL 2?
Idrs still was in Korea, im pretty sure. He left Korea after the Sc2 Beta came out.
On July 25 2015 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: nony/idra/ret didnt have korean citizenship afaik, and even if they did, this is a different time and the foreign scene has really fallen behind the korean scene. Or we could even further specify that those who are born in korea/have citizenship/competed in the pro scene cant play. I really doubt any of them are going to come back to bw tho lol
true they didnt. Though i don't think it's about korean citizenship here. The idea of the rule is to stop players from playing who have an unfair advantage from their Pro gaming affiliation. Im just trying to show here, that edge cases of "weaker" players (in pro gaming relation), as Idra was certainly no big winner in Korea , have been allowed prior to this event too.
The foreign scene has fallen behind, that's right. But on the other hand, playing on the lowest level of SOSPA events (SRT) and knowing some Pro's is not comparable to the advantage idra had. He played on CJ_ENTUS, of course he was in no important line up, but he lived in the house, practiced every day with the gosu's on the team, he had a coach helping him with his gameplay. he didn't have to pay rent or take summer classes.
That all beeing said, in my book, by old standards Scan is a semi pro or trainee, not a Progamer.
Why are people taking time to take into consideration whether scan is "too good to play" in this or not? It is almost like this is rocket science. This is a Foreign Tournament, with a Korean playing at basically at what is considered the "pro" level at the moment. It is in the rules that Korean / Chinese players will not be allowed. The tournament organization seemingly is making a 100% Biased decision.
If you can please elaborate on how there is not a biased decision being made on the part of the event staff please do so, because I am pretty sure there is absolutely no logical rebuttal that can be said at this point. People seem to be beating around the bush but in all actuality this is broken, and unfair for BW Foreign players.
So what if Szisky and trutacz can beat Scan potentially? What about every other player that signed up that cannot and all the players that didn't sign up because of one player being in the bracket?
I can just hear Sayle now commentating each players game vs Scan lol...Oh well, gl hf gg.
On July 25 2015 10:03 Falling wrote: Looking at above the above post, the central reasoning is being 'too good.' That certainly makes for an interesting precedent: voting out players that get too good. It's a novel idea to deal with
if you think about it for a while, it's the oldest idea ever because it directly translates into the "no koreans allowed" rule itself. You either ignore that stupid rule or you go by it, that's what many are saying. Firebathero participated in Riga (!) Lan 2014, is a lovely guy, will spark tons of interest to the tournament, I know people that can arrange for him to participate (it's easier than it may sound at first), I see no reason to not do it.
Thing is - with him and Scan in it you're starting to think "why not just invite Nada then? Or Terror?" Or other pros that foreign community knows and will adore participating, that will hence do good to the foreign community. Isn't that the point?
Divide the tournament into two stages. The first stage would be the tournament in place now, but with a prize pool of $90 instead of $100 and with Scan banned.
The second part would be the "final boss" stage, where the winner of stage 1 plays Scan (in a best of 3, perhaps) for the remaining $10. (If Scan cannot or doesn't want to play, then just distribute the $100 normally.)
After 4 such tournaments, revert to the current scheme (1 stage, $100 + Scan) and run this 4 times.
Then, based on empirical data--participation rates in the first 4 tournaments (no Scan) vs. the following 4 tournaments (with Scan), # of viewers, player and audience comments, etc.--determine how to run the remainder of the weekly tournaments.
The idea here is to encourage top foreigners, most of whom are rusty, to get back into shape during a period of a month without discouraging them from participating because of Scan; give Scan a chance to win some money during the first 4 tournaments as compensation for disallowing him to play; and acquire empirical data upon which to make a determination of how to proceed in the remaining tournaments.
Since the 1st tournament is tomorrow (already today for me), there might not be enough time to properly discuss this or implement this. However, the scheme could be put into effect next week.
I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution. My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3 example: #1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2) #2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1) #3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote: I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution. My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3 example: #1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2) #2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1) #3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
It would actually be really funny if it were 2 and 1 for first and second because then it would be more profitable for a player to forfeit the finals of the tournament if they thought they'd have a solid chance of making the next finals.
from 3 tours, you would get 50
from 2 tours you would get 35
35/2 = 17.5 50/3 = 16.6
Though... Not hugely more profitable, certainly not enough to warrant forfeiting a match.
On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote: I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution. My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3 example: #1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2) #2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1) #3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
On July 25 2015 14:11 GGzerG wrote: Streaming my newb practice games for TLS ! www.afreeca.tv/evertelecom if anyone wants to see how bad I am , Excited for TLS :D
Are you being serious right now? You're derailing this thread by promoting ur own stream? LOL . I'm def reporting you.
Basically i see tl staff not wanting to restrict scan from playing, because its not fair for him being tl member. However in this case they make many players including the most notable ones not play, and many people to lose interest in watching, making an obstacle to the whole scene to rise, which is more fair? i dont think so.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC".
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Another way to put it is a player who has been member of the foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches etc. I don't think there's an official definition of the term "foreigner", but making one based on the ethnicity, location or citizenship is a wrong one, in my opinion.
We want a bigger and better TLS as well, we just hope that we don't have to compromise our principles to get there. ProtossGG said it in the clearest way possible what everyone who is opposed to Scan playing is thinking, but no one wanted to say it outright because it would make them look bad and petty (ok, some did probably):
"Scan, I respect this. And you're totally right - there's no LOGICAL reasoning to have you out, except, as I think I said it best, that you're TOO good. I'm not saying it's fair at all to kick someone out for being as good as you are."
So if we did ban Scan, we would have to do it like this. It would not be fair to Scan and it would not be fair to his fans who wants to see him play. And while ProtossGG's suggestion of having a community poll is very alluring so we can put all of this behind us, there are some inherent problems with a polling system when it's not done carefully and with resources we don't have, ie. random distribution of participants and having those participants fully informed about the issue they're voting on.
Also, there were quite a few problems with TLS's, especially towards the end, that I don't believe we'll solve by keeping the status quo artificially (no, having a slightly bigger prize pool is not enough to change the status quo).
On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote: This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
And his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote: This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
And his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
On July 25 2015 07:32 2Pacalypse- wrote: ...I think this is not true, and besides few of the players here who refuse to participate out of the protest because they fear their shot at the money is being oppressed, I think it will actually increase the activity in the long run.
Would you please make a list with actual nicknames of the so called "few of the players that fear their shot at the money is being oppressed" with evidence here?
Also I am not sure what 'long run' you are talking about. My 13 years of thorough BW experience gives me the confidence to say that in the last 2-3 years till now there is no significant amount of new faces in BW in the foreign and korean bw scene if there are any new faces at all. In the long run, you have old faces showing up again at seemingly random times and for random amounts of time - no new faces, regardless whether Scan plays or not. "The minority" of players are ALL the players you got nowadays. It's the same old players that get older and have various and more different things to do, than BW. If by "increase the activty" you mean "turn TeamLiquid BW events into D+ tournaments" then I see the point.
On July 25 2015 07:32 2Pacalypse- wrote: I know it might not seem like the most obvious thing right now, but one of the biggest problems we had during TLS1/2/3 (besides Sziky owning everyone and having 80% ZvZs after Ro8) is the players attitude toward the tournament itself. It was pretty frustrating, for us organizers, to see players have an apathetic attitude towards your tournament, where it seems like they don't even bother preparing for it and just play it like every other ladder match. And I think that's exactly what we would get again if we didn't allow Scan from the start and didn't have all this drama.
+
We had a Hungarian player play in a foreign tournament (TLS1/2/3) thus almost definitely ensuring everyone can't win no matter how much they practice in 2 months (and hey, we proved ourselves right!)
The first is not true. I believe (and remember) players like trutacz, eonzerg, bakuryu, me, sziky, draw, nemu, doty, skzlime and many others practiced relatively diligent for foreigners and we had a good attitude in the TLS tournaments. My 10years+ of competitve BW experience is behind my reasoning. My practice time with the players stated above and MANY more that actually played in TLS is behind my reasoning. What is behind your reasoning? Also the second is not true again - players like draw, trutacz, me, eonzerg, doty, nemu and even the inactive G5 have good chances to win against sziky, if we only weren't that stressed out against him and played somewhat noticeably below our usual level in practice games. I am not saying we are better than him or have better tournament results. I am saying it's significantly easier to win against him - the foreigner, than to win against Scan - the actual korean.
On July 23 2015 08:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: We take community's feedback very seriously and trust me, there's no pride and ego involved here. We discussed our plans for months before we announced anything, so excuse us
This is also doesn't seem true. How do you take community's feedback very seriously when you discuss something for months without actually asking for the community's feedback? Who are 'we' in 'We discussed'? Again list with actual nicknames please. Is everybody from that list reading each and every post thoroughly here? Because BisuDagger wasn't as diligent as I expected on reading carefully some of my posts.
Also, interestingly enough the problem was the players from TLS' attitude. What about organizers attitude? The TLS I ranked 2nd, I spent 70% of my practice time for the finals against Sziky to convince the Elite TL Organizers that Jade had a location that fucked the whole map for zvz up. We had a high chance of playing 2 games on Jade yet nothing was done because 'such imbalances in BW exist for long time' or smth, if I remember correctly. Same goes for Paranoid Android. Though I highly respect the map overall as I have tons of 2005-6 memories on it, the map is heavily imbalanced, especially in mirror MUs. Yet the response is 'we will look into that', check these stats. The map is 10 years old. 10 YEARS OLD. Haven't you already looked into it? Aren't you already familiar with it? How come the TL Organizers are not for years aware that this is a very prime example for an imbalanced map, perhaps one of the most sharly ones in the history of WCG BW? This is the biggest show of incompetence so far in the thread, yet TL organizers dare, to speak from the name of TeamLiquid, and insult seemingly all TLS1/2/3 players by saying they prepared for TLS as for a ladder match?
On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote: This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
And his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
Huh?
weren't you requesting information about Scan's participation in korean/chinese leagues? Or is it too old - a year ago? How about we start measuring Scan's contribution to the foreign scene from, say, a month ago? What's with arbitrary conditions?
On July 25 2015 20:13 2Pacalypse- wrote: This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
And his participation in COSL is kinda well known. I'd like to see you reinterpret the rules now, especially since you explicitly said "korean OR chinese".
Huh?
weren't you requesting information about Scan's participation in korean/chinese leagues? Or is it too old - a year ago? How about we start measuring Scan's contribution to the foreign scene from, say, a month ago? What's with arbitrary conditions?
What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +
Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me
On July 25 2015 22:25 trutaCz wrote: Yes, Paranoid Android shouldn't be one of the maps. There are plenty of maps which are more balanced.
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
Also, A LOT of the maps that have been standard and played for years have the same problem. For example, by.hero claimed that top right in Fighting Spirit mines noticeably faster in ZvZ. There is the same problem in Python as well.
But anyways, I'll admit that the Paranoid Android was chosen for the nostalgic reasons primarily and as such, we'd be willing to replace it in further tournaments (not in today's one though because perhaps some of the players already practiced specific BOs on it).
On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote: What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +
Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me
"If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision."
Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know.
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works?
In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead.
In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge).
On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote: What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +
Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me
"If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision."
Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know.
now this is awesome. Every instance of 'korean' in your rules is accompanied by 'or chinese' and now suddenly it doesn't work, okay. Sziky can hardly participate anywhere, even TSL, with his english hence the level of involvement is vastly different. Eon noshowed as far as I know but the previous statement also applies to him somewhat. Truta is the closest one to Scan in that regard, even being his minus) fellow, but there's an abyss of a difference between them in other aspects.
How can you guys complain SO SO SO MUCH ???? Just stop with it and be thankful to sponsors and organizers. Scan is allowed to play and somehow you have to live with it.
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works?
In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead.
In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge).
Fair enough. Are you willing to help us test this?
On July 25 2015 22:59 juvenal wrote: What do you mean by "participation in the 'professional' scene" then? Scan's been consistently playing in the Chinese OSL for the last 4 years. + Show Spoiler +
Here, he even brags about it himself: "I won official tournaments 5 times, and I have the 3rd most title holder in China." Seems legit foreigner to me
"If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision."
Besides, Sziky, eOn trutacz participated in the C-OSL as far as I know.
now this is awesome. Every instance of 'korean' in your rules is accompanied by 'or chinese' and now suddenly it doesn't work, okay. Sziky can hardly participate anywhere, even TSL, with his english hence the level of involvement is vastly different. Eon noshowed as far as I know but the previous statement also applies to him somewhat. Truta is the closest one to Scan in that regard, even being his minus) fellow, but there's an abyss of a difference between them in other aspects.
What? I don't think I ever mentioned words 'chinese' and 'professional' next to each other. I don't think professional Chinese scene is even a thing.
Yes, we did look into the Paranoid Android. The difference in mining rate is something of a ~200 minerals in a 15 minute game. This seems to be due to the BW's nature where workers mine horizontally faster than vertically (something that Goshix has said all the way back in the first few pages). However, top base's natural has minerals in such a way that workers will mine vertically (slower), while right base's natural has vertical mineral layout which will make workers mine horizontally (faster). As such, there is bound to be some evening out as the game goes on.
This is so wrong on so many levels that I have no idea where to start from - do you have any idea of how BW works?
In zvz, the top base smashes in the face bottom base like you are playing against a computer. No matter how many terribad decisions a player that has the top base makes in game, he is still slightly ahead.
In BW tiny details like these matter a ton. They make this cumulative effect that is pretty decisive who wins the game and who doesn't. The game is 14+ years old, yet your best take on 'checking' the map is (seemingly, hope it's not true) just sending 9 workers at the same time and mining the whole mining field on main and the natural? Are we in the stone age? The actual and thorough testing needs at least 4 people -3 good players - one from each race and one gosu mapmaker (which in this case is only Freaklingzerg to my knowledge).
Fair enough. Are you willing to help us test this?
Not anymore. I spent hours of mine, Freaklingzerg's, bakuryu's and implicitly eonzerg's time (he practiced with Bakuryu I believe to notice the Jade issue) to get only stubborn responses for actual contributions of the foreign bw scene. How do you imagine spending 70% of my practice time, while insulting me and all other TLS1/2/3 players, that we had weak attitude and prepared like for a ladder match AND on top of that I faced endless stubborn resistance on the issue, minutes before the TLS 2 finals, while being more than willing to help to test something now?
Does that answer look like helping foreign bw community to you?
On July 25 2015 23:40 2Pacalypse- wrote: What? I don't think I ever mentioned words 'chinese' and 'professional' next to each other. I don't think professional Chinese scene is even a thing.
true but you get what I mean don't you? You prohibit chinese players (as if they ever cared) from participating, but allow a korean guy (who's supposedly almost like a foreigner) that plays in chinese leagues. Why ban chinese at all then? Playing in COSL is literally the quality check for them, only the best do, but somehow for Scan it doesn't matter.
Yeah I realize I'm being real obnoxious and picky here and I respect the organizers personally, especially BisuDagger and 2Pac for your immense contributions to the foreign BW. But! The issue seems very principal (possibly the last big foreign tournament and foreigners are about to get rekt by a korean) and it feels like you just reinvent the rules each time to legalize Scan.
Also, I thought that when TL organizers want us foreigners to prepare as hard as we can to beat koreans, they must place actual efforts too? King Sziky is getting smashed by Scan, yet you demand hours of practice and dedication for about a year perhaps from many players, yet all you guys do is stone-age map check?
Also, do you plan on answering the questions from my biggest post on top of Page 21? They are the many and important questions that I am interested in being answered and they are not even being addressed/mentioned?
Because I thought that organizers read these kind of posts to read actual feedback from the community, yet not a single word yet.
On a side, note, what is the TLS cups organisation opinion on facing relatively stiff resistance on the issue by contributors like zimp, mca64 who created the widely used launcher, eonzerg who sponsored defiler tournaments, and players like sziky, me, DragOn, G5, again eonzerg, Wallace the Beautiful Genius? I will be more than happy to have new foreigner faces in bw that are chogosu and willing to contribute so that the resistance of the aforementioned doesn't matter, but is that the case now? Do Scan's contributions (the 1 thread, the translation review and the 2v2 laddering) significantly overvalue the contributions of the guys above?
And to get ahead of your answers to the main post I made on the top of Page 21, I actually won't be having the time to play in the TLS cups regardless of whether Scan plays or not. If Scan is being allowed to play, the TL Organizers will be actually doing me a favour most likely as I should focus on other issues for now. Although I would really like to get significantly involved in a sponsored LAN tournament somewhere in Europe for instance.
Also I am not currently fearing my shot to the money being opressed. Although being awarded some money feels good, to me - ranking as best as possible in the TeamLiquid BW events for me is about prestige and social acknowledgement. We are far away from huge financial sponsorship taking over foreigner BW scene imo so that the money factor becoming significantly bigger than the "prestige" one is nowhere near to be seen as of now. It feels like this issue debated here is more a matter of principal to me.
On the Michael and Pro7ect issue, I wish I had more knowledge on the matter, but I really don't want to and don't have time to spend reading their + Scan's biographies. I thought Pro7ect speaks Russian well and has grown up in Russia? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me can have a say here.
Pro7ect grew up in Russia, speaks russian fluently, never played in korean leagues, never practiced with ex-pros, was very active in the russian bw community. He's the korean you're looking for when it comes to real contributions, e.g. he arranged for In_Dove to do a livestream with Pro7ect on skype translating questions from forumers, translating the answers and whatever knowledge Dove decided to share. And it was long before the snipealots, let alone afreeca streams being available.
Guys, please, re-read some of 2pac's posts. As he already stated, we read every post in this thread and discuss the contents internally. We are watching TLC closely and will make changes as needed based on data collected. We do appreciate the feedback from our community members despite how it seems at times.
As for Paranoid Android, we are not averse to changing maps at all for TLC and we had a certain condition to fulfill which was why the map was chosen. Either way, TLC should be starting soon enough, so, let's all just relax for a bit and enjoy watching BW!
On July 26 2015 00:52 BigFan wrote: Guys, please, re-read some of 2pac's posts. As he already stated, we read every post in this thread and discuss the contents internally. We are watching TLC closely and will make changes as needed based on data collected. We do appreciate the feedback from our community members despite how it seems at times.
As for Paranoid Android, we are not averse to changing maps at all for TLC and we had a certain condition to fulfill which was why the map was chosen. Either way, TLC should be starting soon enough, so, let's all just relax for a bit and enjoy watching BW!
Paranoid Android is a good map I have good memories on, don't get me wrong - I like the map. It's just that top base beats bottom one in most, if not all, MUs - especially in mirror ones. Just invite people to thoroughly test it and make changes accordingly to the map and it could be pretty good to go.
I would still like a response to my post on top of Page 21 though.
On July 26 2015 00:52 BigFan wrote: Guys, please, re-read some of 2pac's posts. As he already stated, we read every post in this thread and discuss the contents internally. We are watching TLC closely and will make changes as needed based on data collected. We do appreciate the feedback from our community members despite how it seems at times.
As for Paranoid Android, we are not averse to changing maps at all for TLC and we had a certain condition to fulfill which was why the map was chosen. Either way, TLC should be starting soon enough, so, let's all just relax for a bit and enjoy watching BW!
Paranoid Android is a good map I have good memories on, don't get me wrong - I like the map. It's just that top base beats bottom one in most, if not all, MUs - especially in mirror ones. Just invite people to thoroughly test it and make changes accordingly to the map and it could be pretty good to go.
I still would like my questions being answered though. They are right there, on top of Page 21.
Of course, I know you weren't saying it's terrible Since this is the first TLC, our goal is to make sure everything runs right and we collect data on how things go. There is even a good chance that we'll replace it in the next TLC, but, it'll have to be a decision agreed on by all staff. All I wanted was to let members know, that yes, we are reading each and every post and are discussing it. We want TLC to be a fun event for the community and provide some entertaining games
As for the questions, all I can say is that I wasn't involved in TLS organization. I am one of the admins for this tourney though. As for community feedback, we're looking at it as it comes in.
On July 25 2015 23:40 2Pacalypse- wrote: What? I don't think I ever mentioned words 'chinese' and 'professional' next to each other. I don't think professional Chinese scene is even a thing.
true but you get what I mean don't you? You prohibit chinese players (as if they ever cared) from participating, but allow a korean guy (who's supposedly almost like a foreigner) that plays in chinese leagues. Why ban chinese at all then? Playing in COSL is literally the quality check for them, only the best do, but somehow for Scan it doesn't matter.
Yeah I realize I'm being real obnoxious and picky here and I respect the organizers personally, especially BisuDagger and 2Pac for your immense contributions to the foreign BW. But! The issue seems very principal (possibly the last big foreign tournament and foreigners are about to get rekt by a korean) and it feels like you just reinvent the rules each time to legalize Scan.
After the major tournament there will most definitely be more. 2Pac and gang are always pursuing more ways to acquire money and sponsors among a list of many other things to ensure a future for Brood War outside Korea.
@Everyone, we have heard everything you said. We are not blizzard. Don't keep slamming us like a big corporation and remember that we are as passionate as you are. I am asking please to take a break in that anger as we try and find the best solution instead of the easiest one. I love that you all care this much and trust me this has been non stop talked about for a week now in our skype chat.
@Eon who I specifically targeted earlier in this thread. I'm sorry for what I said to you. Sometimes it is hard to stand on the sidelines as people say hurtful things after we have worked so hard to build something as great as possible. I know your role in the community as well as anyone else and appreciate what you do.
The best thing to help us right now, is to show support today. Whether you will play or watch, your involvement is needed. Thank you all.
On July 26 2015 00:50 juvenal wrote: Pro7ect grew up in Russia, speaks russian fluently, never played in korean leagues, never practiced with ex-pros, was very active in the russian bw community. He's the korean you're looking for when it comes to real contributions, e.g. he arranged for In_Dove to do a livestream with Pro7ect on skype translating questions from forumers, translating the answers and whatever knowledge Dove decided to share. And it was long before the snipealots, let alone afreeca streams being available.
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
Anyways, here's a fun challenge to anyone who thinks we shouldn't allow Scan to play. Try to rewrite our eligibility rule below in a way that would disallow Scan from playing. Be careful though, we don't want to ban some of our admins (Koreans living in Korea), or some of the Koreans living in US, or some of the foreigners living in Korea. Also, your rule can't explicitly say "Scan is banned". Have fun.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The edge cases (Koreans/Chinese currently residing outside of Korea/China, non-Koreans/Chinese currently residing in Korea/China and others) will be considered separately based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Ok, howbout this easy fix:
"those players who have competed/are competing in the korean professional scene and have korean citizenship are disallowed to play in the TLS/TLC".
This is pretty close; but I already said before that banning someone based on their ethnicity (or citizenship) is not a good reason. I know it's in there so it targets Scan specifically and I have to give you kudos for that, because it sort of works.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
On July 25 2015 10:54 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Id like to see a tournament like the last 3 TLS's only bigger and better, I think thats what everybody wants really. Id rather see the emphasis on foreign bw than TL bw. Scan is a member of TL, but hes not a foreigner. Hes born in korea, currently living in korea, has competed in the korean professional scene and currently practices with top professional koreans. He even claims to have been a korean b-team practice partner at age 11, so either hes a liar or thats more evidence that hes not a foreigner, if there was ever any doubt.
Another way to put it is a player who has been member of the foreigner community for a long time, recognized by fans, participated in many foreigner tournaments / showmatches etc. I don't think there's an official definition of the term "foreigner", but making one based on the ethnicity, location or citizenship is a wrong one, in my opinion.
We want a bigger and better TLS as well, we just hope that we don't have to compromise our principles to get there. ProtossGG said it in the clearest way possible what everyone who is opposed to Scan playing is thinking, but no one wanted to say it outright because it would make them look bad and petty (ok, some did probably):
"Scan, I respect this. And you're totally right - there's no LOGICAL reasoning to have you out, except, as I think I said it best, that you're TOO good. I'm not saying it's fair at all to kick someone out for being as good as you are."
So if we did ban Scan, we would have to do it like this. It would not be fair to Scan and it would not be fair to his fans who wants to see him play. And while ProtossGG's suggestion of having a community poll is very alluring so we can put all of this behind us, there are some inherent problems with a polling system when it's not done carefully and with resources we don't have, ie. random distribution of participants and having those participants fully informed about the issue they're voting on.
Also, there were quite a few problems with TLS's, especially towards the end, that I don't believe we'll solve by keeping the status quo artificially (no, having a slightly bigger prize pool is not enough to change the status quo).
Thanks for the acknowledgement, 2Pac. If you guys do go about using my suggestion, I would love to be looped in to help you guys formalize an unbiased voting platform / continue progressing this idea.
Besides that, calling Scan's few games in SRT two years ago can hardly be called competing in the korean professional scene. If he really does start participating in the korean "professional" scene, we're willing to review our decision.
lol? yeah it can, he competed in the korean pro scene, the srt is evidence of it, end of story. You repeatedly say that if he "starts" participating in the korean pro scene you would reconsider, and then ignore solid evidence that he already has...wtf more do you want? And on top of that, you also ignored the part where I mentioned he claims to have been a b-team practice partner at age 11, so thats two instances of him participating in the korean pro scene.
On July 26 2015 01:07 BigFan wrote: ... All I wanted was to let members know, that yes, we are reading each and every post and are discussing it. ...
Great, I await a response to my bigger post on the top of Page 21.
here is another suggestion: why don't you give admins a list of the good foreigners who refuse to play because of Scan? Not those who have little time or little motivation for BW, but those explicitly, just and only for Scan, do not play in this event but otherwise would give 100%
That would be truly interesting, im not sarcastic here. It's unclear to me, how many people are "boycotting" this tournament and having at least an idea of this number would give admins an idea of how many players see it the way you do. Just looking at the thread it is hard to say if only a vocal minority is speaking here or if the majority is agreeing silently too.
On July 26 2015 01:07 BigFan wrote: ... All I wanted was to let members know, that yes, we are reading each and every post and are discussing it. ...
Great, I await a response to my bigger post on the top of Page 21.
here is another suggestion: why don't you give admins a list of the good foreigners who refuse to play because of Scan? Not those who have little time or little motivation for BW, but those explicitly, just and only for Scan, do not play in this event but otherwise would give 100%
That would be truly interesting, im not sarcastic here. It's unclear to me, how many people are "boycotting" this tournament and having at least an idea of this number would give admins an idea of how many players see it the way you do. Just looking at the thread it is hard to say if only a vocal minority is speaking here or if the majority is agreeing silently too.
500+ viewers at peak times. Scan losing two games in the finals. I'd say this was a great first tourney and clearly lots of people are interested. Thank you everyone who is watching and showing support.
I tuned in for 10 seconds to see trutaCz vs Scan's weakest race - P, on Match point, in sickest of all lag with 2 observers. As dRaW said - good viewer count but the players?
This is the least amount of players involved in a TL BW event I've ever seen probably. Perhaps it's just inactivty issues or some other issues. Still expecting a reply to my post on top of Page 21.
500+ viewers at peak times. Scan losing two games in the finals. I'd say this was a great first tourney and clearly lots of people are interested. Thank you everyone who is watching and showing support.
Always wonder why 'fanboy-type' people so limited. No point even discussing anything.
Scan is not part of a foreign community and will never be, he is payed to be part of the community. He is an act, and the moderators are jumping around him like monkeys around a banana, making sure he wins everything.
Now he defends himself so vocaly, who wouldn't in such circumstances?
Great tourney? Facepalm.
+1
I wouldn't mind him playing, if he didn't have lag. When a moderator enters a game for 5 seconds and says "it's playable", I know I am dealing with people who don't play starcraft at all.
Technics: It was an amusing cast with some really fun games, I haven't been this entertained in quite some time even though there are other fun foreigner tours ongoing I think the overwhelming majority of the viewers in the chat had a similarly great experience cheering against Scan but also enjoying some of his shenanigans and high level play. Besides Julia complaining about lag (wow) I didn't notice any bigger complaints from the players, though the few we got we collected and they'll be taken into account. The players were all very cooperative and showed us some entertaining games, for which I can only thank them as always.
Some things did go wrong this time for sure though. There was no translation of the news on the russian portals until the cup had already started, we had trouble getting replays due to a new system so some were casted simply for the fact that we literally had 0 other replays to work with at the time, despite 4 people ready for reviewing games for casters. And there are other minor issues. We'll be better prepared the next time.
This is only my personal opinion and maybe it'll turn out different but I think we should wait at least 1 or 2 more tours before evaluating our observations and player/fan feedback and making any major adjustments. Seems like the logical way to go about things, so please keep the feedback coming. Also please keep in mind that pretty much all of us working on this are already people that spend hours on our TL-related activities on a daily basis. It's our hobby but it comes with short and long-term responsibilities that can eat up a lot of time and put you under stress. Keeping up in discussions that tend to get into loops can become quite time consuming, so please don't think you're being deliberately ignored.
I wouldn't mind him playing, if he didn't have lag. When a moderator enters a game for 5 seconds and says "it's playable", I know I am dealing with people who don't play starcraft at all.
I never understood how people can not grow out of this kind of argument. If you wouldn't behave like a total idiot admins might be ready to listen. "oh look, they don't get my child what I want, I will flame them for [not playing the game][having no real life][random insult]". Ffs, if you could do better go to Brain and get some money. Sadly you can't, so at least manner up kiddo.
On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote: ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea.
He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament.
If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
The cut who is allowed to play and who is not should be clearer. If Scan plays, i would love to see Sea and some others participate as well.
Why did you left out the the most important part of the eligibility rule in Scan case? How is it not clear enough that those who are a part of the foreign BW scene are allowed to play?
On July 18 2015 20:02 1sh2sh3sh wrote: ban scan from tour. He is korean and now live in korea.
He has also been a part of the foreign BW scene for years, so it would be unfair to ban him from the foreign BW tournament.
If you're afraid he's just too good, maybe you should practice more instead of asking to ban him.
Unfair that is korean always play foreigner scene, because his skill not enough to play own korean tours.
Why is that unfair? Being Korean doesn't give you superpowers in BW...
It does not, but obviously it gives more in-depth sources for learning and strategies if you understand korean. Also it's easier to get games from koreans (who plays on higher level). But I want to see Scan vs Sziky tho, but hopefully rest of the better foreigners doesn't get too disencouraged.
Finishing with an insult as a sum-up to your insulting post. Priceless.
Or should I write just as you, and sum it up with "Priceless stupidity"? See, you pretend to be nice, but you just act.
Btw, admins never listen, it would probably be the first instance in history of bw, where admins listen to anything. All they do is tell you to play on extra high - like you do that on a daily basis.
This tournament looks like democratic voting in North Korea - lists had only one name to 'choose'. So, you can only compete for 2nd spot, and only if you're on the right side of the bracket, and still I wouldn't mind if it wasn't for that lag, which we can't even comment on, beacuse we get bashed instantly for even bringing the matter to light, so most people just don't even want to talk about it. Awesome.
Dunno why Julia is getting so much hate. He at least tried to play vs Scan. Many, including me, won't even participate. He tries it out, ends up playing Scan, and then loses. Not only did he lose, he lost to Scans off-race. He also experiences lag. He voices his opinion and shares his experience and gets crucified for it. Admins make him play in lag and admins back a player many don't feel should even be in the tournament. It's not fun to play in a tournament where you feel like someone is getting special treatment and it's not fun to watch a tournament where you know that the person getting special treatment is going to win. It's especially shitty losing to a player you feel shouldn't even be there to knock you out. It makes you feel cheated in a way.
I watched a bit of the stream and honestly it just kind of ticked me off watching a player who probably shouldn't be playing eliminate people over and over with his off-race.
It also sorta ticked me off watching the over-criticism on a lot of the earlier matches like Jumpers by the casters. It's like they expect near-korean level play and enjoy pointing out mistakes more than diagnosing what players are trying to do. I look at guys like Jumper and Julia and all they got out of this tournament is basically embarrassment and hate. Pretty lame if you ask me.
On July 27 2015 03:43 G5 wrote: Dunno why Julia is getting so much hate.
Because you only follow this tournament and not anything else that has happened in the past five years. So far Julia managed to piss off a ton of people, not limited to the TL.net administration crew. He's a walking stereotype of a player you can not possibly satisfy. I remember countless incidents in which Julia "complained" about issues, regardless of what actually happened.
The few last encounters I had as organizer were following:
In ICCup CL he had to play Gargoyle, a Terran from Eastern Europe. Apparently lags or a disconnect happened, so he called me in by stating that "the Russian retard lags". After repeating his insults about ten times, several warnings and a warning kick later he missed to point out what really was the issue. I offered to either swap them both, repeat another day or to continue with lag - if lag happened at all. Julia stormed off and complained on Teamliquid how admin be bitches and power hungry fucks with no life.
The last incident happened in a bw.de tour with Hearthstone Beta Keys as prices. He went talking shit for hours before actually trying to play. Before we even could come to a decision he stormed off once again and was only granted a walk over, because his opponent was fed up by this kind of behaviour.
Honestly, you can try as much as you want, the kid doesn't have any manners. Naturally, you learn to ignore his requests, because you can't possibly come to the conclusion whether or not he has anything to say besides directing anger at others - he literally only releases two sentences including at least one minor offense. It can't be really bad, otherwise he wouldn't show up at all, can it? It's not like he could downright refuse to play. It's really not just the TLS organizers, or the ICCup administration, it expands and the list of people "he is hated by" include a ton of notable players as well.
Now compare with other impulsive players like eOnzErG. It took a while, but you can adjust to their heated arguments, and they eventually manage to calm down. Entirely different - see TechnicS. The guy is pissed off and from what I heard he as a ton of reasons for it, yet I fail to see something really offending.
Btw one thing to note is that a lot of the top foreigners seem to boycott the decision to allow Scan to play in these cups. I am not sure how many of you tried to understand Sziky's posts but i am pretty sure he said that he is not going to participate alongside Scan here. For now this seems to be true, also as i speak frequently with TechnicS he feels the exact same way although he is quite busy with his life and would've either way miss a lot of the tournaments. But with Scan playing he is absolutely 100% sure he won't play. The same applies to Eon who also said there is no point in playing. And these are 3 of the top top foreign/zerg players of the past several years. I don't think this is the best start and i don't think that the easy follow up argument is simply the shot at the prize pool(although that is the reason to have one in the first place imo).
On July 27 2015 05:03 BulgarianToss wrote: Btw one thing to note is that a lot of the top foreigners seem to boycott the decision to allow Scan to play in these cups. I am not sure how many of you tried to understand Sziky's posts but i am pretty sure he said that he is not going to participate alongside Scan here. For now this seems to be true, also as i speak frequently with TechnicS he feels the exact same way although he is quite busy with his life and would've either way miss a lot of the tournaments. But with Scan playing he is absolutely 100% sure he won't play. The same applies to Eon who also said there is no point in playing. And these are 3 of the top top foreign/zerg players of the past several years. I don't think this is the best start and i don't think that the easy follow up argument is simply the shot at the prize pool(although that is the reason to have one in the first place imo).
PS I totally lol'd at Gecko's post about Julia xD
i dont gonna call it boycott for now,true is who ever face scan in the brackets gonna loss,so the top ranks players will reach higher places if they dont face him in the early brackets,not sure for new blood like you and Sero how it feels,is it cool for you guys ? or doesnt matter if loss to scan or sziky or trutacz or vs me ?anyway yesterday i was busy playing one tournament in the Peru community,i dont have time to play every tournament and the saturday 19:00 is not really a good time for me,but i will try to play some in the future,
i have one question to the admins,will be players sancionated if when they facing scan just give wo ?i mean the result proly gonna be the same,and i know maybe viewers reaction at first gonna be bad but think about it,you are playing a semiprogamer in front of a big audience to get smashed and be ridiculed on top of that this is not some youtube commentaries arguments where angry fans blaming the artist,is just the active players of the foreign scene complaining what they believe is fair( no want him in the tournament.)and honestly u guys should force to stay with one race,he plays all the races at a good level,(he told me he made C rank fish with Protoss and zerg)imagine in the future how the hell you gonna prepare for a bo series if this guy play wathever race he feels?....im sure most of the foreign players never reached C rank except few exceptions.so yeah his offrace is already better than most of our main race ^^;
im talking about the sactions mostly looking for the conclusion of the TLS championship where i took part in the 3 tournaments made and where was some ranking for participation and nows doesnt make any sense ?. if someone decided to answer plz dont tell me to fuck my self or comments like that,i really writting this without trying to offend anyone. ggs
The last incident happened in a bw.de tour with Hearthstone Beta Keys as prices. He went talking shit for hours before actually trying to play. Before we even could come to a decision he stormed off once again and was only granted a walk over, because his opponent was fed up by this kind of behaviour.
i actually have to confirm this. From my pov Julia did behave in quite an unacceptable way. So while i think it is good that players voice their concerns about the TLS, i think Julia shouldn't be suprised if admins have a negative expectation about his behavior. If you read this Julia, i don't wanna talk bad about you, but admins react towards you, as you react towards them.
@Eons post: i actually have to admit Scan was really dominant vs tacz in the finals. In his offrace games he didn't look too bad and his mainrace wins were very dominant. I think Eon is right when he says, that Scan can beat a lot of good foreigners offrace consistently. Perhaps not the top tier of foreign players, but starting with the second tier, unless perhaps in zvt where he can take down anyone. The finals were a great viewing experience and really fun to me, but one has to admit, they were pretty onesided. Props to tacz for playing the series with full passion anyway and not giving up/playing only stupid all-ins.
i was very impressed with his attitude, playing the series to the best of his abilities despite beeing a clear underdog.
i think Julia shouldn't be suprised if admins have a negative expectation about his behavior. If you read this Julia, i don't wanna talk bad about you, but admins react towards you, as you react towards them.
Granted, you're right as far as communication goes. However, for a moment look from the opposition's point of view.
How can we feel if... we have a non-korean tour, with one korean, from korea, who plays more with his off-races than we do with our main races (yup!). That's like the organizers pointing the middle finger towards everyone playing. Let all koreans play - we like that.
Ogranizers have to realize, that players also react to their decisions. They don't like when we call it favouritism, then what is it? They want good games, but who will practice just to lose anyway, already some players decided it's not worth it. Like it or not, the tour lost a lot of it's magic.
Your post Cele was one of the few insult-deprived and reasonable here, why would I think you talk bad about me? You get played by gecko's trolling about me too much.
Honestly, you can try as much as you want, the kid doesn't have any manners
Can moderation maybe at least like verbally warn this guy? All he does is insult me, despite the fact I'm not talking with him?
It also sorta ticked me off watching the over-criticism on a lot of the earlier matches like Jumpers by the casters. It's like they expect near-korean level play and enjoy pointing out mistakes more than diagnosing what players are trying to do. I look at guys like Jumper and Julia and all they got out of this tournament is basically embarrassment and hate. Pretty lame if you ask me.
I'm a bm player, I call people chobos all the time, guilty ;d
Embarassment? I'm not embarassed to lose. Rather I'm disappointed at the organizers that I had to play lagged games, I thought more of them before that.
Interpreting the rules you have made is indeed voicing many concerns dear organizers from the vast majority of the players` side. I imagine the main problem of many players is not Scan`s skill level, rather, that he is Korean, and as it is in the rules: Koreans are not allowed to play. I feel it useless to repeat; zimp and many others already pointed out these rather interesting flaws in detail, yet they were ignored, however they are right, you are contradicting yourself losing your credence. This stubborn resistance by the organizers against this level of pressure from the players`s side amazes in the sense that it does not induce(d) any kind of change. The question arises in the public: are you really for the majority of foreign players or for just for one person?
Scan did such a freaking mannered THING that no any fucking newschool kid of BW scene would/could do by playing offrace against weak opponents by risking his score overall. Scan needs entry to the hall of fame of TSL/TLS/TLC. Scan is currently GOD of foreign scene.
i think Julia shouldn't be suprised if admins have a negative expectation about his behavior. If you read this Julia, i don't wanna talk bad about you, but admins react towards you, as you react towards them.
Granted, you're right as far as communication goes. However, for a moment look from the opposition's point of view.
How can we feel if... we have a non-korean tour, with one korean, from korea, who plays more with his off-races than we do with our main races (yup!). That's like the organizers pointing the middle finger towards everyone playing. Let all koreans play - we like that.
Ogranizers have to realize, that players also react to their decisions. They don't like when we call it favouritism, then what is it? They want good games, but who will practice just to lose anyway, already some players decided it's not worth it. Like it or not, the tour lost a lot of it's magic.
Your post Cele was one of the few insult-deprived and reasonable here, why would I think you talk bad about me? You get played by gecko's trolling about me too much.
It also sorta ticked me off watching the over-criticism on a lot of the earlier matches like Jumpers by the casters. It's like they expect near-korean level play and enjoy pointing out mistakes more than diagnosing what players are trying to do. I look at guys like Jumper and Julia and all they got out of this tournament is basically embarrassment and hate. Pretty lame if you ask me.
I'm a bm player, I call people chobos all the time, guilty ;d
Embarassment? I'm not embarassed to lose. Rather I'm disappointed at the organizers that I had to play lagged games, I thought more of them before that.
Yes okay, i see the point. It is frustrating that like Scan is that much better. You feel robbed and don't know why to try hard, because realistically you will not beat him. I understand what it is like to feel you have no Chance to win. It's like this for me every tour i play unless i enter like a D/C rank tour. But imagine if it was a random guy, who is this good.
Let's assume our random guy is not korean, and has never played in pro BW and doesn't lag, he does not have a better ping on fish. In that case, it would be fucked up to ban him, just coz he practiced a ton and really improved his game, where others didn't.
So What can be good reasons to ban Scan?
He has a pro gaming background, though he can only be counted as Semi-pro given he didn't play a lot of SOSPA events yet (only 1 SRT) and he is by far not a top player in the SOSPA. Many Guys who have a pro gaming background have played in foreigner Events in the past, Like Nony, Ret,Idra but also Chinese players like Fengzi, Jaystar and others. It doesnt seem fair to exclude him on that basis.
Then scan is korean by passport, but actually he lived much longer in the US than in Korea and for the most part played BW there. We also had many other players play in foreign event who's parents are from Korea or who have a korean passport, like Pro7ect, Michael and many others, Inuh for instance was a german player who had a korean background and he played german events. So i think exlcuding by ethnicity is wrong too.
Then you can combine those too and say because he is too good/progamer (same thing) AND coz he is korean. But if one reason is no good, combining them doesn't make it better.
So, TL admins thought about it and came to the conclusion, a foreigner is a foreigner when he is active in the scene, participates and helps. I don't want to argue if Scan helped more than others, but he did help. The line is actually very blurry i admit it, but i can't think of a better way to define it.
He could be excluded becasue of lag, but some players in the tour have worse lag then him, so no good either.
Players have never prior been excluded from a TL Starleague (TSL 1&2, TLS 1-3) for those reasons. If you let Idra play, let Scan play.
On July 27 2015 09:53 outscar wrote: Scan did such a freaking mannered THING that no any fucking newschool kid of BW scene would/could do by playing offrace against weak opponents by risking his score overall. Scan needs entry to the hall of fame of TSL/TLS/TLC. Scan is currently GOD of foreign scene.
lol.....
First of all, Scan is not a foreigner, so he cannot be the god of the foreign scene.
Secondly, Only a new schooler would think off racing is mannered.
Thirdly, Scan off racing did not change the overall outcome of this Cup, nor the next. It is a form of deception that only a new schooler like yourself would think is real. You know why Koreans off race vs Foreigners? Because they know they are going to win regardless of the Race they pick.
This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Bisu to take part. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may get his lazy ass off from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
On July 27 2015 13:12 Rus_Brain wrote: This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Busu to let in. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may take his lazy ass from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
Hi there.What about consider make the tournament bo1 for him ? like we playing a bo3 if i win 1 thats it,or bo5,this mean he need win 2 games in a bo3 and 3 games in a bo5 while us the non kors semiprogamers just need 1 game ?can this be take in consideration ?
On July 27 2015 13:12 Rus_Brain wrote: This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Busu to let in. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may take his lazy ass from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
Hi there.What about consider make the tournament bo1 for him ? like we playing a bo3 if i win 1 thats it,or bo5,this mean he need win 2 games in a bo3 and 3 games in a bo5 while us the non kors semiprogamers just need 1 game ?can this be take in consideration ?
A handicap is fine. I already offered that like twenty pages ago ^^
On July 27 2015 13:12 Rus_Brain wrote: This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Bisu to take part. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may get his lazy ass off from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
once again what about sponsor mca64Launcher Tour. Yes or No?
You already got a lot of donations for launcher, which instead, you used for sponsoring scan's showmatches.
mca and tl.net have a lot in common when it comes to being fanboys. Don't sponsor mca, unless you want $ to go to scan directly.
Many Guys who have a pro gaming background have played in foreigner Events in the past, Like Nony, Ret,Idra
I assume you didn't play any of them. I did, there is a difference between Idra back then, us back then, and our current situation. After a year of semi-activity someone told us to play vs a person why played 24/7 in korean leagues for the past few years without even a break to watch tv.
We don't earn money from korean leagues, from streaming starcraft. We play this mostly casualy. Still I wouldn't mind playing koreans in tour, moreover, bring Bisu in! I want to see how many tournaments his gonna play with Bisu participating. I assure you he is gonna be out very quickly and is gonna forget he's a foreigner.
For me it's not about the skill level - it's about equal rules for everyone and smooth running games. Single lag incidents can be overlooked, but when I know that no matter which part of the bracket I am, there's a lag game eventually - I don't want to play it. But if there are more players from korean - it's acceptable, since the rules are equal for everyone.
On July 27 2015 05:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im talking about the sactions mostly looking for the conclusion of the TLS championship where i took part in the 3 tournaments made and where was some ranking for participation and nows doesnt make any sense ?
I'm not sure I understand this question correctly, but if you're asking if there will be some connection between the three previous TLS tournaments and TLS Championship, then yes, there will be. However, TLC is not connected to the TLS Championship. TLCs are just weekly tournaments that you can play in; or not.
On July 27 2015 09:51 noname_ wrote: Interpreting the rules you have made is indeed voicing many concerns dear organizers from the vast majority of the players` side. I imagine the main problem of many players is not Scan`s skill level, rather, that he is Korean, and as it is in the rules: Koreans are not allowed to play. I feel it useless to repeat; zimp and many others already pointed out these rather interesting flaws in detail, yet they were ignored, however they are right, you are contradicting yourself losing your credence. This stubborn resistance by the organizers against this level of pressure from the players`s side amazes in the sense that it does not induce(d) any kind of change. The question arises in the public: are you really for the majority of foreign players or for just for one person?
It doesn't say that Koreans are not allowed to play, but the players inside Korea/China are not allowed. Then we had an addendum which tried to clarify that exceptions can be made, but after some additional reading and zimp's detailed post, we see how that addendum could've been misunderstood. We clarified the addendum now so there hopefully won't be confusion anymore with the wording of the rule. The whole eligibility rule now is:
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Exceptions to the above rule will be provided to individual cases based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Now you can ask what constitutes a participation in the foreign BW scene. That is a good question and it's up to our discretion. Scan's case however, should be clear-cut. His participation in the foreign BW scene is undeniable. Someone like Sea would be a much more difficult case to decide. While he has communicated with his foreign fans a few times on TL and was part of the TL pro team, he hasn't played in a single foreigner tournament and knows nothing about foreign BW scene itself. Note: please don't start discussing the hypothetical scenario of Sea to playing in TLC; we're just trying to clarify rules a little bit so the discussion stays on track.
As a fun project, I tried looking at the previous tournaments where Scan has played to see if people complained this much about it and I couldn't find any posts where they were calling for his ban with this much vitriol. Two tournaments that are probably most relevant, since they happened less than a year ago, are Alchemy League (fun fact, it was actually Julia who was banned from this one ^^) and Defiler Super Tour which Sziky won (oops, sorry spoiler). Defiler Super Tour was only seven months ago, and while it's true that Sziky has since then went a bit inactive, I absolutely urge you to go download those replays of Scan vs Sziky. Sziky beat him twice (once in winners round and once in grand finals) and after you've seen those replays, it should help with breaking this myth of Scan being unbeatable.
Also, I'm putting my foot down with this discussion, so unless you have something new to add to the discussion, please refrain from posting. We'll review the status of the tournament in due time and let you know if anything changes.
On July 27 2015 13:12 Rus_Brain wrote: This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Bisu to take part. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may get his lazy ass off from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
once again what about sponsor mca64Launcher Tour. Yes or No?
That does not work that way, bro <3 At the time being. NO.
On July 27 2015 23:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: As a fun project, I tried looking at the previous tournaments where Scan has played to see if people complained this much about it and I couldn't find any posts where they were calling for his ban with this much vitriol. Two tournaments that are probably most relevant, since they happened less than a year ago, are Alchemy League and Defiler Super Tour which Sziky won (oops, sorry spoiler). Defiler Super Tour was only seven months ago, and while it's true that Sziky has since then went a bit inactive, I absolutely urge you to go download those replays of Scan vs Sziky. Sziky beat him twice (once in winners round and once in grand finals) and after you've seen those replays, it should help with breaking this myth of Scan being unbeatable.
this is not even funny, I just give up. I especially love how you say DST is relevant, having ended less than a year ago, and completely ignore the last five regular DTs that took place in the last 4 months in which Scan destroyed the opposition. Truth is:
Not to mention that Scan offraces all the time and all the finals he's lost he offraced - including the one you recommend we watch. I'm starting to think that you maybe just don't quite know what level Scan's at. You suggest that people go practice - what for? To beat 200+ eapm B fish terran with TvZ being his best mu.
Just want to say thanks for this great initiative and especially Rus_Brain for sponsoring this. I started playing some again fairly recently so I might just stick around and try my luck in one of these tournaments for fun.
My opinion from a viewers perspective (as I'll definetly be one);
Personally, the problem I have with Scan's participation is that it takes a lot - and here I mean an substantial amount - of excitement away from the tournament. I do agree that everyone can practice ever so much, but the fact here is that he'll pretty much be a default finalist and winner, stomping every foreigner you throw at him. There are no or very few foreign players in the scene nowadays that can take maps of him - let alone BO3s - and unfortunately the gap is too big to be closed during the time span of this tournament.
I haven't read this whole thread, but what I haven't seen pointed out is the fact that "FOREIGNERS" are still quite equal in skill, making this a much more open tournament and favoring those who actually practice if Scan doesn't default brackets. Yes, you have players like trutaCz that are extremely good, but there still are a lot of active - and inactive - foreigners that could contest him for the title with good practice. Unfortunately I don't see that happening if Scan is the opponent.
On July 27 2015 05:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im talking about the sactions mostly looking for the conclusion of the TLS championship where i took part in the 3 tournaments made and where was some ranking for participation and nows doesnt make any sense ?
I'm not sure I understand this question correctly, but if you're asking if there will be some connection between the three previous TLS tournaments and TLS Championship, then yes, there will be. However, TLC is not connected to the TLS Championship. TLCs are just weekly tournaments that you can play in; or not.
On July 27 2015 09:51 noname_ wrote: Interpreting the rules you have made is indeed voicing many concerns dear organizers from the vast majority of the players` side. I imagine the main problem of many players is not Scan`s skill level, rather, that he is Korean, and as it is in the rules: Koreans are not allowed to play. I feel it useless to repeat; zimp and many others already pointed out these rather interesting flaws in detail, yet they were ignored, however they are right, you are contradicting yourself losing your credence. This stubborn resistance by the organizers against this level of pressure from the players`s side amazes in the sense that it does not induce(d) any kind of change. The question arises in the public: are you really for the majority of foreign players or for just for one person?
It doesn't say that Koreans are not allowed to play, but the players inside Korea/China are not allowed. Then we had an addendum which tried to clarify that exceptions can be made, but after some additional reading and zimp's detailed post, we see how that addendum could've been misunderstood. We clarified the addendum now so there hopefully won't be confusion anymore with the wording of the rule. The whole eligibility rule now is:
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Exceptions to the above rule will be provided to individual cases based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Now you can ask what constitutes a participation in the foreign BW scene. That is a good question and it's up to our discretion. Scan's case however, should be clear-cut. His participation in the foreign BW scene is undeniable. Someone like Sea would be a much more difficult case to decide. While he has communicated with his foreign fans a few times on TL and was part of the TL pro team, he hasn't played in a single foreigner tournament and knows nothing about foreign BW scene itself. Note: please don't start discussing the hypothetical scenario of Sea to playing in TLC; we're just trying to clarify rules a little bit so the discussion stays on track.
As a fun project, I tried looking at the previous tournaments where Scan has played to see if people complained this much about it and I couldn't find any posts where they were calling for his ban with this much vitriol. Two tournaments that are probably most relevant, since they happened less than a year ago, are Alchemy League (fun fact, it was actually Julia who was banned from this one ^^) and Defiler Super Tour which Sziky won (oops, sorry spoiler). Defiler Super Tour was only seven months ago, and while it's true that Sziky has since then went a bit inactive, I absolutely urge you to go download those replays of Scan vs Sziky. Sziky beat him twice (once in winners round and once in grand finals) and after you've seen those replays, it should help with breaking this myth of Scan being unbeatable.
Uh... when I asked about TLS Championship:
Original Message From G5: Hey,
Saw the post about TLS Championship. If I end up being seeded into that, I'll play. Just let me know whenever you guys decide how it'll work.
Thanks.
you gave me this response:
That's great to hear! However, I feel like we won't be too charitable with the seeding of players because some of the players who could end up seeded wouldn't have touched BW for 2 years. The point we're trying to achieve is to increase the activity of the scene over all.
What I was told (and every other player who played the original TLS) was that there would be a big tournament at the end that would be seeded dependent on how you did in the first 3 TLS tournaments. We never got this tournament that we all were expecting. 2 years later it comes up and when I ask about it, you suggest I play this Legacy Cups. Are you now saying playing in the Legacy Cups has no determining factor on entry into the TLS Championship?
On July 27 2015 23:49 2Pacalypse- wrote: Also, I'm putting my foot down with this discussion, so unless you have something new to add to the discussion, please refrain from posting. We'll review the status of the tournament in due time and let you know if anything changes.
Put it to the vote as I suggested in one of the earlier pages. This is becoming extremely dramatic. Once you give folks the power to truly vote, fairly, this will end and we can continue without such bad blood moving forward.
Also, Scan playing off-race obviously DOES NOT change the outcome. It's actually BM, if you ask me. It's not an act of kindness on his part. It's not like he's thinking, "Oh, let me play my off race to give these guys a chance..."
No, deep down inside, it's more like, "Ha, these foreigner did not ban me so I will make it look like I am being kind but really want to just crush everyone with off race." Every 'old school' person knows playing with off race is BM. It's not acceptable, in my opinion. And the fact that he crushed the tournament with off race goes to show he should NOT be in this tournament. And please don't mention the "3-2" victory in the finals. If he wanted to 3-0 Trutacz he can. We have to keep in mind, Scan is very intelligent. You think he won't intentionally lose a game or two to help his argument? "Oh look, I dropped 2 games. People can beat me. Don't ban me." Yeah, right.
Forgive me for such a cynical thought process here. But it's becoming a bit excessive here that the TL Staff would defend one person so much. It makes it seem a bit suspicious at this point. How can ONE person be defended so much instead of simply, just servicing the community/majority? Once again, as I've openly said, if Scan gets kicked out - my deepest and sincere apologies. But it is what it is.
Put it to a vote, nip this in a bud, and let's move on. We have tons more Legacy Cup tournaments left and of course, the big kahuna next year.
On July 27 2015 23:47 2Pacalypse- wrote: As a fun project, I tried looking at the previous tournaments where Scan has played to see if people complained this much about it and I couldn't find any posts where they were calling for his ban with this much vitriol. Two tournaments that are probably most relevant, since they happened less than a year ago, are Alchemy League and Defiler Super Tour which Sziky won (oops, sorry spoiler). Defiler Super Tour was only seven months ago, and while it's true that Sziky has since then went a bit inactive, I absolutely urge you to go download those replays of Scan vs Sziky. Sziky beat him twice (once in winners round and once in grand finals) and after you've seen those replays, it should help with breaking this myth of Scan being unbeatable.
this is not even funny, I just give up. I especially love how you say DST is relevant, having ended less than a year ago, and completely ignore the last five regular DTs that took place in the last 4 months in which Scan destroyed the opposition. Truth is: + Show Spoiler +
On July 28 2015 01:55 juvenal wrote: Not to mention that Scan offraces all the time and all the finals he's lost he offraced - including the one you recommend we watch. I'm starting to think that you maybe just don't quite know what level Scan's at. You suggest that people go practice - what for? To beat 200+ eapm B fish terran with TvZ being his best mu.
He offraced one game in the final and provided us with one of the best ZvZs I've seen (I still don't know how Sziky won that). All other games were ZvT and Sziky won the series. He also won one ZvT in a winners round. Really, all games were spectacular; I urge everyone to see them.
Besides, I don't even understand what point you're trying to make. Did I say Sziky is a better player than Scan? No. Did I say that Scan is not a favorite against any other foreigner at the moment? No. So please stop with excessive nitpicking that don't lead to anything and only derails the discussion.
On July 28 2015 03:20 dr.shrinker wrote: Just want to say thanks for this great initiative and especially Rus_Brain for sponsoring this. I started playing some again fairly recently so I might just stick around and try my luck in one of these tournaments for fun.
My opinion from a viewers perspective (as I'll definetly be one);
Personally, the problem I have with Scan's participation is that it takes a lot - and here I mean an substantial amount - of excitement away from the tournament. I do agree that everyone can practice ever so much, but the fact here is that he'll pretty much be a default finalist and winner, stomping every foreigner you throw at him. There are no or very few foreign players in the scene nowadays that can take maps of him - let alone BO3s - and unfortunately the gap is too big to be closed during the time span of this tournament.
I haven't read this whole thread, but what I haven't seen pointed out is the fact that "FOREIGNERS" are still quite equal in skill, making this a much more open tournament and favoring those who actually practice if Scan doesn't default brackets. Yes, you have players like trutaCz that are extremely good, but there still are a lot of active - and inactive - foreigners that could contest him for the title with good practice. Unfortunately I don't see that happening if Scan is the opponent.
Thank you for the tone of this feedback. It's very refreshing.
I see your point, but you can pretty much replace Scan in your post with Sziky during TLS1/2/3 and it would still remain true. I don't see how we're having any bigger of a problem now than we had back then.
On July 27 2015 05:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: im talking about the sactions mostly looking for the conclusion of the TLS championship where i took part in the 3 tournaments made and where was some ranking for participation and nows doesnt make any sense ?
I'm not sure I understand this question correctly, but if you're asking if there will be some connection between the three previous TLS tournaments and TLS Championship, then yes, there will be. However, TLC is not connected to the TLS Championship. TLCs are just weekly tournaments that you can play in; or not.
On July 27 2015 09:51 noname_ wrote: Interpreting the rules you have made is indeed voicing many concerns dear organizers from the vast majority of the players` side. I imagine the main problem of many players is not Scan`s skill level, rather, that he is Korean, and as it is in the rules: Koreans are not allowed to play. I feel it useless to repeat; zimp and many others already pointed out these rather interesting flaws in detail, yet they were ignored, however they are right, you are contradicting yourself losing your credence. This stubborn resistance by the organizers against this level of pressure from the players`s side amazes in the sense that it does not induce(d) any kind of change. The question arises in the public: are you really for the majority of foreign players or for just for one person?
It doesn't say that Koreans are not allowed to play, but the players inside Korea/China are not allowed. Then we had an addendum which tried to clarify that exceptions can be made, but after some additional reading and zimp's detailed post, we see how that addendum could've been misunderstood. We clarified the addendum now so there hopefully won't be confusion anymore with the wording of the rule. The whole eligibility rule now is:
Who is eligible to play in the TLC? TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese). Additionally, the purpose of this series of tournaments is to foster a practicing environment in preparation of TLS Championship. As such, the people eligible to play in these tournaments is everyone outside Korea and China.
Exceptions to the above rule will be provided to individual cases based on their participation in the foreign BW scene.
Now you can ask what constitutes a participation in the foreign BW scene. That is a good question and it's up to our discretion. Scan's case however, should be clear-cut. His participation in the foreign BW scene is undeniable. Someone like Sea would be a much more difficult case to decide. While he has communicated with his foreign fans a few times on TL and was part of the TL pro team, he hasn't played in a single foreigner tournament and knows nothing about foreign BW scene itself. Note: please don't start discussing the hypothetical scenario of Sea to playing in TLC; we're just trying to clarify rules a little bit so the discussion stays on track.
As a fun project, I tried looking at the previous tournaments where Scan has played to see if people complained this much about it and I couldn't find any posts where they were calling for his ban with this much vitriol. Two tournaments that are probably most relevant, since they happened less than a year ago, are Alchemy League (fun fact, it was actually Julia who was banned from this one ^^) and Defiler Super Tour which Sziky won (oops, sorry spoiler). Defiler Super Tour was only seven months ago, and while it's true that Sziky has since then went a bit inactive, I absolutely urge you to go download those replays of Scan vs Sziky. Sziky beat him twice (once in winners round and once in grand finals) and after you've seen those replays, it should help with breaking this myth of Scan being unbeatable.
That's great to hear! However, I feel like we won't be too charitable with the seeding of players because some of the players who could end up seeded wouldn't have touched BW for 2 years. The point we're trying to achieve is to increase the activity of the scene over all.
What I was told (and every other player who played the original TLS) was that there would be a big tournament at the end that would be seeded dependent on how you did in the first 3 TLS tournaments. We never got this tournament that we all were expecting. 2 years later it comes up and when I ask about it, you suggest I play this Legacy Cups. Are you now saying playing in the Legacy Cups has no determining factor on entry into the TLS Championship?
Me suggesting you play in Legacy Cups was immediately after I mentioned our goal of increasing the activity of the scene. Ie. I was suggesting you should play in Legacy Cups to become more active ^^. I can see now how my message can be read as me saying you will not be seeded or that Legacy Cups are connected with TLS Championship, so I apologize for that. You might get seeded; or you might not. We don't know yet.
As for the seeding of TLS Championship, that is still undecided until we get a better sense of the current scene, but there will definitely be seeding of some kind that will benefit players who played regularly in TLS1/2/3 and/or did good in them. The reason I said we won't be too charitable with the seeding of players is because we obviously can't seed every single player who played a game in TLS1/2/3 and, because of the unfortunate 2-year long pause, we didn't want to end up with a bunch of seeded players who stopped playing since TLS3 ended. I'm sorry again if there was a confusion with that statement of mine.
Just so we're clear, we have said number of times that the TLS Championship will also have open qualifiers, besides the seeding process. More details about that soon.
Wtf 2Pacalypse. What point I'm trying to make - ok I'll make it as clear as possible. Is Scan unbeatable? No. Much like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu. Is it better now? Can you see how the tournaments end when Scan's participating from my screenshot?
ps: and believe me Defiler Tours especially the older ones gathered high-end players in amounts multiply exceeding the one in TLS.
Poll: The decision to allow Scan's participation is
100% correct (13)
37%
not true to the rules but correct overall (3)
9%
true to the rules but Scan must be banned anyway (2)
6%
100% wrong (17)
49%
35 total votes
Your vote: The decision to allow Scan's participation is
(Vote): 100% correct (Vote): not true to the rules but correct overall (Vote): true to the rules but Scan must be banned anyway (Vote): 100% wrong
On July 28 2015 04:36 juvenal wrote: Wtf 2Pacalypse. What point I'm trying to make - ok I'll make it as clear as possible. Is Scan unbeatable? No. Much like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu. Is it better now? Can you see how the tournaments end when Scan's participating from my screenshot?
ps: and believe me Defiler Tours especially the older ones gathered high-end players in amounts multiply exceeding the one in TLS.
I'm still not hearing your point...
This is what happens when Sziky is participating in defiler tours (where he got 6. place and 3. place he forfeited his match):
Now please stop derailing the thread because you're not making any arguments.
On July 28 2015 04:36 juvenal wrote: Wtf 2Pacalypse. What point I'm trying to make - ok I'll make it as clear as possible. Is Scan unbeatable? No. Much like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu. Is it better now? Can you see how the tournaments end when Scan's participating from my screenshot?
ps: and believe me Defiler Tours especially the older ones gathered high-end players in amounts multiply exceeding the one in TLS.
I'm still not hearing your point...
This is what happens when Sziky is participating in defiler tours (where he got 6. place and 3. place he forfeited his match):
Now please stop derailing the thread because you're not making any arguments.
first of all - wrong. That's what happens when Scan's not in the bracket. And of course that will happen since Sziky is the second best foreigner if you count Scan. No one's ever debating that.
Second: my point is lame because it's a response to your attempt to prove I don't even know what. You posted a wall of text about your "research" on the matter of "Unbeatable Scan Myth". In reality your research turned out to be a mere cherry picking and a screaming one, because anyone who follows the scene knows Scan's true power. You yourself advertise his ZvZ (offrace!) against the best foreign Z.
On July 28 2015 04:36 juvenal wrote: Wtf 2Pacalypse. What point I'm trying to make - ok I'll make it as clear as possible. Is Scan unbeatable? No. Much like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu. Is it better now? Can you see how the tournaments end when Scan's participating from my screenshot?
ps: and believe me Defiler Tours especially the older ones gathered high-end players in amounts multiply exceeding the one in TLS.
I'm still not hearing your point...
This is what happens when Sziky is participating in defiler tours (where he got 6. place and 3. place he forfeited his match):
Now please stop derailing the thread because you're not making any arguments.
first of all - wrong. That's what happens when Scan's not in the bracket. And of course that will happen since Sziky is the second best foreigner if you count Scan. No one's ever debating that.
Second: my point is lame because it's a response to your attempt to prove I don't even know what. You posted a wall of text about your "research" on the matter of "Unbeatable Scan Myth". In reality your research turned out to be a mere cherry picking and a screaming one, because anyone who follows the scene knows Scan's true power. You yourself advertise his ZvZ (offrace!) against the best foreign Z.
This is how I started my post to which you replied to: "As a fun project...". Now you're calling it research where I set out to prove some point. Please, nitpicking has its limits and you crossed yours.
Nitpicking? Dude lol. You picked one tournament that Scan lost among 6 others that happened around that time and which he won, and you tried to make conclusions from that? Call it 'a fun project', call it a 'research', you can call it your phd thesis for all I care. That's a simple fallacy.
Man there hasn't been this much drama about someone participating since Idra in TSL2 LOl
Btw, Idra was a progamer on a progaming team for 2+years and was allowed to participate, and guess what... HE DIDN'T WIN SHIT. Man I remember how much money Rekrul made...
On July 28 2015 07:13 DarkNetHunter wrote: Man there hasn't been this much drama about someone participating since Idra in TSL2 LOl
Btw, Idra was a progamer on a progaming team for 2+years and was allowed to participate, and guess what... HE DIDN'T WIN SHIT. Man I remember how much money Rekrul made...
Back then the competitive scene was WAY bigger in the foreign scene than it is now. There is almost no one to practice against in the foreign scene that is playing this game actively or competitively.
Back then the foreign scene had so many good players to compete with. IdrA was for sure one of the best for a very long time and yes he won quite a few tournaments back then.
Seeing so much drama in the BW community good thing, right? It means people care. And since many people love drama it will give TLC/TLS and ultimately give BW extra attention which is the whole idea of the tournament!
Gotta love foreigners crying about Scan being too good and yet many of the same ones seem to loathe the idea of putting in new maps. IMO new maps should give them a better chance to win vs Scan, IF they're willing to prepare.
On July 26 2015 21:23 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Great tourney? Facepalm.
I tuned in for 10 seconds to see trutaCz vs Scan's weakest race - P, on Match point, in sickest of all lag with 2 observers. As dRaW said - good viewer count but the players?
This is the least amount of players involved in a TL BW event I've ever seen probably. Perhaps it's just inactivty issues or some other issues. Still expecting a reply to my post on top of Page 21.
I think that the complaints in the thread will be ignored as they are firm in their decisions. Maybe we will have to wait and see if anything changes over the first 5 tours to return to these complaints. I have been talking with many people in defiler.ru and it seems like they will not participate until there is some change, but who knows.
On July 28 2015 08:35 Peeano wrote: Seeing so much drama in the BW community good thing, right? It means people care. And since many people love drama it will give TLC/TLS and ultimately give BW extra attention which is the whole idea of the tournament!
Gotta love foreigners crying about Scan being too good and yet many of the same ones seem to loathe the idea of putting in new maps. IMO new maps should give them a better chance to win vs Scan, IF they're willing to prepare.
I'm curious how you think new maps will give someone a better chance to beat Scan. Are you assuming Scan won't even look at the map preview before he plays a tour game on it, and that his opponent will play 20 practice games vs Terran? Part of what makes good players good is their map preparation.
On July 28 2015 08:35 Peeano wrote: Seeing so much drama in the BW community good thing, right? It means people care. And since many people love drama it will give TLC/TLS and ultimately give BW extra attention which is the whole idea of the tournament!
Gotta love foreigners crying about Scan being too good and yet many of the same ones seem to loathe the idea of putting in new maps. IMO new maps should give them a better chance to win vs Scan, IF they're willing to prepare.
I'm curious how you think new maps will give someone a better chance to beat Scan. Are you assuming Scan won't even look at the map preview before he plays a tour game on it, and that his opponent will play 20 practice games vs Terran? Part of what makes good players good is their map preparation.
Good point here.
And also not to mention the pure fact- if Scan even sees starting positions during map preview (assuming he actually never even played the map), he will still win lol. So what does it REALLY matter. Realistically his "pro gamer" macro is enough to win 80% of the games vs typical foreigners, so map or not, it's irrelevant.
The right decision is to allow Scan play in final event, but not allow to play TLC Series.
Considering rules: "TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese)."
Otherwise foreign BW community loses motivation to play in TLC, which ruin the main purpose to strengtheh the activity of foreign bw community.
On July 29 2015 04:46 iFU.spx wrote: The right decision is to allow Scan play in final event, but not allow to play TLC Series.
Considering rules: "TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese)."
Otherwise foreign BW community loses motivation to play in TLC, which ruin the main purpose to strengtheh the activity of foreign bw community.
Having in mind last post of draw of how players keep refusing to play, because of admins decisions, just proves that TLC strenghtens Scan's pocket and the activity of the people who want to try against him, and probably will stop trying after a few defeats. Best case scenario will be the rise of some new players whowill be ok with losing and they will take the place of the old ones. Worst case scenario will be just to discourage everyone and kill foreign bw totally.
Whatever the case, making notable players quit in order to keep one player(it really doesnt matter if its korean or not) is very very very BAD decision.
Imagine kespa returns to bw but without flash, bisu, zero, jangbi, mind and so on. Having like 5-10% of the previous playerpool + new ones. its laughable...
I was super excited to see players from tls 1,2,3 play again and how their thinking and playstyle changed/evloved, they are far from korean pro's, but we were getting used to see, know them and their play.
On July 29 2015 04:46 iFU.spx wrote: The right decision is to allow Scan play in final event, but not allow to play TLC Series.
Considering rules: "TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese)."
Otherwise foreign BW community loses motivation to play in TLC, which ruin the main purpose to strengtheh the activity of foreign bw community.
judging posts from both sides this would be the best compromise imo
Worst case scenario will be just to discourage everyone and kill foreign bw totally.
While the decision to include Scan or not is debatable, I don't see how a brand new tournament that exists because of a generous donor is suddenly going to kill foreign bw. How does something that did not exist less than a month ago have the power to destroy? I don't think it's undercutting any existing tournament. There is the bw foreign scene and then this comes along in addition to what people were already doing or not doing. It's bw foreign scene+ or if it does not encourage anyone to practice, then it is bw foreign scene neutral. We carry on as normal.
Worst case scenario will be just to discourage everyone and kill foreign bw totally.
While the decision to include Scan or not is debatable, I don't see how a brand new tournament that exists because of a generous donor is suddenly going to kill foreign bw. How does something that did not exist less than a month ago have the power to destroy? I don't think it's undercutting any existing tournament. There is the bw foreign scene and then this comes along in addition to what people were already doing or not doing. It's bw foreign scene+ or if it does not encourage anyone to practice, then it is bw foreign scene neutral. We carry on as normal.
On July 29 2015 04:46 iFU.spx wrote: The right decision is to allow Scan play in final event, but not allow to play TLC Series.
Considering rules: "TeamLiquid Legacy Cup series was organized to strengthen the activity and support of the foreign BW scene (read non-Korean/Chinese)."
Otherwise foreign BW community loses motivation to play in TLC, which ruin the main purpose to strengtheh the activity of foreign bw community.
This looks like a really good compromise. Scan, Final Boss.
Worst case scenario will be just to discourage everyone and kill foreign bw totally.
While the decision to include Scan or not is debatable, I don't see how a brand new tournament that exists because of a generous donor is suddenly going to kill foreign bw. How does something that did not exist less than a month ago have the power to destroy? I don't think it's undercutting any existing tournament. There is the bw foreign scene and then this comes along in addition to what people were already doing or not doing. It's bw foreign scene+ or if it does not encourage anyone to practice, then it is bw foreign scene neutral. We carry on as normal.
Facepalm.
The guy is throwing $2000+ at bw, yet TL considers 'bw foreign scene neutral' as an actual option? Before the tournament we had large amount of (maybe happily) inactive players that were planning to be inactive, now we have that same amount of inactive players but this time around frustrated and unwilling to be joining the bw event, still having the same plans of being inactive. This is 'bw foreign scene neutral' at best, not to say it's negative in reality to me.
Also, Rus_Brain, I am not sure if you are right. Players like draw, trutacz, me, eonzerg, doty, nemu and even the inactive G5 had good chances to win against sziky, if we only weren't that stressed out against him and played somewhat noticeably below our usual level in practice games. I am not saying we are better than him or have better tournament results. I am saying it's significantly easier to win against him - the foreigner, than to win against Scan - the actual korean.
But hey, the viewer count was 400 and there were not as many zvzs as TL organizers grew tired of them. Perhaps in the so called "long run" by 2pacalypse- (who is all a sudden silent about insulting basically all TLS1/2/3 actual foreigner players but replies to just about anything else), we will have a ton of foreigner D+ players attending the events, scan and several more actual koreans angling foreigner easy money to keep the "foreigner" scene going.
On July 27 2015 13:12 Rus_Brain wrote: This saturday goodgame hosted a WC3 tournament with RUB 50k starting prizepool. Not to mention awesome games, the community doubled the prizepool, making it RUB 100k (~US$ 1,750) in total. That's very promising, and I am quite willing to share to repeat the tournament.
Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you want. Cry, complain, boy-fucking-cott, these won't make you good. You want us to belive there are more chances for you against, say, Sziky than against Scan? Well, baring in mind your activity level, I agree that 1% chance is still more than 0.1%.
The fear is all the tournaments will be done solely by Scan, with no real competition? I suggest to allow "Rus_Brain's special guest", say Sea or Bisu to take part. And yes this will remain a foreigner tournament, as any foreigner may get his lazy ass off from a chair and take part. Not that easy for a Korean.
once again what about sponsor mca64Launcher Tour. Yes or No?
That does not work that way, bro <3 At the time being. NO.
dont understand. you got money, i have nothing. You put money, i am happy. Paranoid Android, Hall of Valhalla, Lost Temple and Python. Deal?!!
@Technics I am speaking as myself; I am not TL, but a part of it (despite my 'occasional' bouts of delusions of grandeur and self-aggrandizement ) I don't think it's bw scene neutral, but I am talking to individuals that seem to see the additional tournament as the Grim Reaper's visitation to the bw scene, so I allowed for neutral as an option as a worst case scenario.
I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
I think it is all but obvious that injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene is inevitably only going to help this scene, although injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene where a Korean wins everything is completely backwards, upside down, illogical, etc. It makes no sense.
People can continue to beat around the bush all they want with long drawn out explanations, nonsensical rebuttals, and a myriad of inefficient reasonings, but in the end it will still yield the exact same result.
We can change the map pool, and Scan play his off race, none of the results will change.
" For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. " Action: Korean wins every Cup + The final championship in an event that is supposed to be for the "BW Foreign Scene" Reaction: No growth in the BW Foreign scene.
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
I think it is all but obvious that injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene is inevitably only going to help this scene, although injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene where a Korean wins everything is completely backwards, upside down, illogical, etc. It makes no sense.
People can continue to beat around the bush all they want with long drawn out explanations, nonsensical rebuttals, and a myriad of inefficient reasonings, but in the end it will still yield the exact same result.
We can change the map pool, and Scan play his off race, none of the results will change.
" For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. " Action: Korean wins every Cup + The final championship in an event that is supposed to be for the "BW Foreign Scene" Reaction: No growth in the BW Foreign scene.
To the second part of the question: You want a world congress organisation style? Go make your fund for example, fundraise to USD 1,000,000 at least and spend like USD 250k for the organisation part of the tournament and 750k USD - for a prizefund You cant? Go fuck off then.
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
I think it is all but obvious that injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene is inevitably only going to help this scene, although injecting cash into the BW "Foreign" scene where a Korean wins everything is completely backwards, upside down, illogical, etc. It makes no sense.
People can continue to beat around the bush all they want with long drawn out explanations, nonsensical rebuttals, and a myriad of inefficient reasonings, but in the end it will still yield the exact same result.
We can change the map pool, and Scan play his off race, none of the results will change.
" For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. " Action: Korean wins every Cup + The final championship in an event that is supposed to be for the "BW Foreign Scene" Reaction: No growth in the BW Foreign scene.
Sorry, but, I'm not interested in getting into an argument about Scan's inclusion.
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
However, making statements like "our intention is to raise foreign bw" dont appear neutral, as you and falling may see. No results in this means failiure. And making decisions that you know will hinder foreigneer players activity is also not neutral. Its not killing anything, its just stoping IT to rise and grow, while saying that the rise is the primary target of the event. Knowing what tls 1-2-3 was, people have expectations for great championship that tls 4 should be, and it can be, if you give the players what they want. Because they are the ones who make the show(plus the commentators) you must assure their best comfort. I wouldnt be posting this if the tournament was called rus_brain cup or something, its TLS we talking about and without them is like kespa bw without the star players.
and without them is like kespa bw without the star players.
Without Scan it is like OSL but Flash is excluded, becasue he is "too good"
Hi there mr cele,im going to explain you few points that u arent taking in consideration.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.now lets take a look to the rest of us,do we have some progamers to help us ? do we speak korean?do our skill lvl is close to semiprogamers? no even close.but on top of that as Julia mentioned Scan play more games with offraces than us with our main,so he is actually better than most of us with offraces.and Scan can tell all what he wants he doesnt play that much,but i saw him playing 24 hours non stop,and streaming more than 16 hours very often.As u see this is the train regimen of a Korean progamer and one culture system.
TLC had the perfect boost to help the foreign scene to be powered,now ofcourse is to early to talk and only numbers will tell, afterall this weekend gonna just the second tournament,but u can see the reaction and how many players already pulled up.for me this is not helping us the players,maybe with the stream numbers is helping the global supporters,and this could be good ofc,but as i said before there is not point in train for a tournament where a high skill player like scan that should be playing in SSL is playing in TLC cups,
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
Wrong. It could actually hurt the scene. Showing the community that the only thing they have to look forward to is poorly run tournaments by the few organizers and sponsors left in the scene just helps to discourage players and reinforce the thought that there is little point to train hard and try to get better.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
I also agree on the advantage Scan has:
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
On July 30 2015 09:34 LaStScan wrote: People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
I'm just curious to know,
Is it true that you've played in Korean leagues (the closest thing to pro leagues since SC2)?
Is it true that you are practice partners with professional Korean Starcraft players?
Is it true that you're miles above the competition and have acquired most of this skill level by playing in the Korean starcraft scene?
If so... What difference does that one argument make if all of the other ones are valid?
To be clear - I'm not making an argument of whether or not you should be able to play, I just don't feel like this particular defense makes sense if the main points that people are concerned about are true.
On July 30 2015 09:23 Cele wrote: you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
If we consider every other sport, then the answer to that question is pretty obviously yes. There are amateur, semi-pro, and pro leagues for many sports so that players with different abilities, coaching, and training regimens can remain competitive.
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing.
This is absolutely not true. TLS is about who the best foreigner is- not the best in the world (that's the SSL's job). Everyone recognizes there are different levels of skill (which is why even the Chinese scene with a far more organized training structure than any other non-Korean scene made that offracing rule for Korean ex-pros in the C-OSL). Aside from the fact that Scan is Korean and not a foreigner, it's unquestionable that Scan is on a completely different level from any player in the foreign scene- he's even commented on stream that he's happy playing at a semipro level. I don't think its unfair to let the foreigners have their tournament since Scan has access to the many smaller semi-pro, ex-pro and clan league Korean tournaments that foreigners aren't able to participate in even if they had high enough skill.
On July 30 2015 09:34 LaStScan wrote: People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
lol Scan why do you refute the most miniscule things, but ignore the big issues? Eon is right. Why are you playing in TLC for easy money when you should be in SSL? >_<
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
Wow dude, just wow.
He is Korean.
Not a foreigner.
There is no other information needed, everything else is VOID.
I thank you all for the continuous feedback and comments. As mentioned many times by 2pac and others, we are not averse to making changes as needed, however, until we have further data on the current state of affairs, we will only be making minor changes such as changing maps ...
Also, I've seen several people confusing TLS and TLC in their posts. Please do realize that aside from the TLS announcement which had the prizepool and date, we have not provided any information pertaining to the seeding, player pool, rules, maps etc... In other words, there's no reason to speculate on TLS. Furthermore, do note that TLC is separate from TLS.
Ok good to know BigFan. However on the scan issue my thoughts are the same for both TLC and TLS. It seems my post on page 22
lol? yeah it can, he competed in the korean pro scene, the srt is evidence of it, end of story. You repeatedly say that if he "starts" participating in the korean pro scene you would reconsider, and then ignore solid evidence that he already has...wtf more do you want? And on top of that, you also ignored the part where I mentioned he claims to have been a b-team practice partner at age 11, so thats two instances of him participating in the korean pro scene.
hasnt gotten any acknowledgement, where i quite clearly provide evidence that, if the TL staff kept to their word, they would use to "reconsider" which I suppose could just mean briefly think about it and then not change anything, but I guess Ive got to have more faith in TL than that. I agree with the majority of what technics, eonzerg, G5, f10eqq and ggzerg are saying. Im not going to post anymore on the scan subject, ive already said my opinion several times and the TL staff should be reading and doing something about it eventually.
edit: Also fuck having series handicaps or scan being forced to play offrace or whatever other compromises were suggested earlier, if he has to do that he obviously doesnt belong in the tournament. playing vs a handicapped or offracing player is bullshit, I agree completely with bakuryu that id rather get 4-0d than play vs handicap. handicaps are there to try and neutralize some kind of unfair advantage, (scan being korean, playing in korean leagues etc) where there shouldnt be one in the first place, and its got nothing to do with skill. We dont see people suggesting sziky be handicapped, because he doesnt have an unfair advantage, he has a fair advantage and its his right to play in foreigner leagues and capitalize on the advantage he has gained from the same ground as any other foreigner.
As well, whoever suggested that having newer maps is going to help foreigners over scan, I very much disagree. When youre better at bw than everyone else around you, youre also better at analyzing maps and knowing how to exploit imbalances or remain safe to cheesy shit. Scan is versatile enough to play all 3 races and every matchup, hes not going to be stumped by some map gimmick.
And finally, TLS/TLC is not going to kill foreigner bw, but allowing scan to play in both of them is cutting short their potential to actually be really great foreign tournaments and do a shitload of good. On the surface, it looks amazing when you see a generous sponsor is willing to fund weekly tournaments for 5 whole fucking months, and then a really big one (comparatively to what weve had since sc2 came out, i think its the biggest yet?), and I love rus_brain for doing it. But when you also take in the fact that this was advertised since TLS1 as the championship, the final one where all the top finishers would compete for the biggest prize yet, etc etc, and then it gets delayed and delayed and people lose hope and stop playing or even thinking about bw, and then suddenly here we are, its amazing but at the same time its tainted because theres one korean who wasnt in any of the first 3, whos probably just going to win everything. Thats not what was promised, and it feels like it couldve been so much more.
FyRe_DragOn, I could be mistaken, but, I believe 2pac or another staff member might've touched on that in a previous post. I'm not sure on what page the comment is on though if it was indeed mentioned.
On July 30 2015 11:44 BigFan wrote: I thank you all for the continuous feedback and comments. As mentioned many times by 2pac and others, we are not averse to making changes as needed, however, until we have further data on the current state of affairs, we will only be making minor changes such as changing maps ...
Also, I've seen several people confusing TLS and TLC in their posts. Please do realize that aside from the TLS announcement which had the prizepool and date, we have not provided any information pertaining to the seeding, player pool, rules, maps etc... In other words, there's no reason to speculate on TLS. Furthermore, do note that TLC is separate from TLS.
How much data do you need? A lot of real foreigners (whom you were supposed to support) are pissed and or unmotivated. You can not possibly be ignorant about that
Letting scan in or out has nothing to do with discrimination. It's like giving a scholarship for American Indians (or another unprivileged minority) to a male white protestant.
I hope you understand how absurd that sounds because the foreigners are like the metaphorical American Indians. No matter how much a white American male protestant has help the native Americans, a native American scholarship should never be given to him. And there should be absolutely no hard feelings for excluding him from the scholarship.
If you really want something more concrete just make a poll and put it in the op and you'll have your data.
I'm not even playing and I agree with g5 eon and others because it is simply too easy to sympathize with them.
I don't intend to insult anyone but I hope you understand that if you intend to do a service to the community you have to put your ego aside and listen to new information and put aside your "thorough discussions" because obviously you did not understand the community well.
Please don't say that a poll won't be a good form of data collection because it is exactly what is needed if you really want data.
And do it now please if you really care about the community more than your ego. In reality you will only get an ego boost if you care about the community because you will be happy to see them happy.
In the end no one really cares whether ego play a part as long as the correct decision is made and it starts with a poll (or something equivalent) and keep it open.
Polls unfortunately do not hold much weight in these forums because there are way to many outside sources (people not watching and or playing in this event, voting out of spite, not caring the result)
What really needs to be done is people need to use there brains.
Polls unfortunately do not hold much weight in these forums because there are way to many outside sources (people not watching and or playing in this event, voting out of spite, not caring the result)
What really needs to be done is people need to use there brains.
I just wanted to quote that. It sums up the discussion so well.
No one wants Sziky out, he's heads above the rest, your argument is invalid. FyRe_DragOn basically nailed it
On July 30 2015 12:46 FyRe_DragOn wrote: We dont see people suggesting sziky be handicapped, because he doesnt have an unfair advantage, he has a fair advantage and its his right to play in foreigner leagues and capitalize on the advantage he has gained from the same ground as any other foreigner.
What makes people lose their temper is the apparent lack of response to the crucial questions (see Technics' frustration about his 21p. post).
Being a TL'er is not a criterion. Sziky's not a TL'er, half the russian players are not TL'ers, etc.
The issue is not as straightforward as you think. If it was down to any particular rule - you'd just compare the reality with what it says and make conclusions. But it's not, forcing the admins to address one issue at a time (which makes it look like they deliberately ignore the other ones) and 2pac, e.g., did it poorly. First he tried to invalidate claims that Scan to this day participates in actual pro-events by saying Chinese events simply don't count. Go figure, Chinese starcrafters are not allowed (why then?), but playing in COSL is fine. Then he tried to bust the "myth of unbeatable Scan" by picking exactly one tournament that Scan didn't win among 5-6 others that he obliterated. What kind of arguing is that? And should it be a valid point - why would it matter anyway if it was never about Scan's skill, but about him being korean in the sense 'not a foreigner'? I was done with this thread at that time but was amazed by the special tactics of 2pac's and came back (my bad).
Just curious, any gamer over B- actually was for Scan playing so far? I need a link to their feedback. All I see are people who don't play saying how great the games will be with Scan in the tournament, and 10+ gamers who have reached A- or higher saying he shouldn't play.
That is to say, I'm just curious... Also didn't like the casting about my man Jumperer, the guy is a legend on Facebook.
edit: I think I know what you think we know, but since I told you and actually am unsure what I hope for in this specific case, I thought there's a possibility you had something else in mind.
On July 30 2015 19:13 dRaW wrote: Just curious, any gamer over B- actually was for Scan playing so far? I need a link to their feedback. All I see are people who don't play saying how great the games will be with Scan in the tournament, and 10+ gamers who have reached A- or higher saying he shouldn't play.
That is to say, I'm just curious... Also didn't like the casting about my man Jumperer, the guy is a legend on Facebook.
Me, trutaCz and I believe G5 (maybe someone else too, sorry if I forgot somebody) suggested to allow all koreans with good connection to play or to not allow scan to play.
TL Organizers challenged players with "you guys go practice hard and we all enjoy the fruits". I challenged organizers with "go to fish and spread the word for the TL series and find other chogosu koreans with good connection to play as well". They said "no resources". And I basically view this as TL Organizers expecting foreigner players to practice hardcorely for a year to get a chance at 2nd-8th place (depending on the brackets) while they are clearly refusing to spend some hours a month for maybe 3 months on fish to find other chogosu koreans/pros to allow to play.
Ok, i just wonder if there is a big problem about a particular player participating in foreign bw events by a lot of the current foreign players that are part of the ever more scarce foreign bw scene, wouldn't it make sense to solve the issue somehow? I mean we are grateful about rus_brain's enormous donation for additional bw tournaments and all the organisers who will make this happen, but let us look at the facts:
1. Probably around half of the community is actively protesting towards the decision to let Scan play(based roughly on the poll results about the matter)
2. Without Sziky who said here that he has been inactive for a couple of months now and doesn't know when he might come back to play bw actively again(and is also against the decision), Scan has no real competition in these cups officially(assuming he is allowed to play his main race)
3. Scan is South-Korean and is among the best semi-pro Korean players nowadays. The sole fact that he speaks English somewhat well for a Korean and for that reason is able to engage in foreign forums does not make him a foreigner. "Scan, Ryoo Seung Kohn[2], was born in South Korea" - directly from liquipedia.
4. Several foreign bw players already voiced out their discouragement to participate in the tournaments if the decision remains as it is and Scan is allowed to play(some of them really top foreign players).
So, in conclusion, if no changes are going to be introduced on the controversy about Scan's participation what is most likely going to happen is - less foreign players playing and Scan(semi-pro Korean player) obliterating all competition with ease. If this is what the goal is and the people in charge are happy with it leave it as it is, because you have the full right.
PS I agree with TechnicS that if there are more really high level Korean players participating and the tours become open to the Korean scene as well the problem with Scan will vanish(everything will come down to lag in that scenario and Julia will be happy beyond measure)
The reason why it may seem like there's lack of response is because there are a lot of repetitive and off-topic arguments which are only becoming more and more emotional and personal. In order to try to put an end to this, here are two posts that have already been posted, which reflects our point of view the closest at the moment:
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
On July 25 2015 08:43 2Pacalypse- wrote: In the end, I'll grant you that there seems to be a contradiction in my posts because we're seemingly trying to do two opposite things; keeping Scan in the tournament (because we don't want to ban member of our community from our own tournament) and increase the activity and motivation of the foreign BW scene (which according to you won't happen unless we ban Scan). Maybe I'm just an optimist and hope that both can coexist, or maybe I just want to wait until we see some results before going against our principles.
I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
All this looks like a big cluster fuck to me. I'm also very sad atm that no oldschoolers like myself has come back to practice for this. We want some more oldschoolers up in here
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
On July 30 2015 20:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: They said "no resources"
I am very well acquainted with Fish server and the clans on Fish, I could easily help promote TLS / TLC on Fish and bring in more Korean players around Scans level or better, but umm that doesn't seem like the most logical thing to do in a "Foreign Tournament"? T_T
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
Very true
Interesting, I thought you only knew how to say "wrong"
Anyways, there's a lot of information we can get and which we need so if/when we ban Scan, we have something to compare it to. Scan's win rate is not one of them as it is irrelevant. Even though it makes me feel queasy to ban a player as a part of an experiment, we may be forced to at this point.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
I also agree on the advantage Scan has:
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
Wow dude, just wow.
He is Korean.
Not a foreigner.
There is no other information needed, everything else is VOID.
if it were that easy.we wouldn't have 27 pages of discussion. Of course you can oversimplify things, if you want. But that's not a good argument.
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
Very true
Interesting, I thought you only knew how to say "wrong"
Anyways, there's a lot of information we can get and which we need so if/when we ban Scan, we have something to compare it to. Scan's win rate is not one of them as it is irrelevant. Even though it makes me feel queasy to ban a player as a part of an experiment, we may be forced to at this point.
you should not feel bad about it because you're not responsible for it. The community is very literal in what it demands so Scan should hold no grudge to the admins. Also it would probably be better if you just voiced what info are you waiting for. Otherwise it might look like soft-pedaling the issue until 2-3 tournaments from now, when no one really cares anymore.
edit: I think I know what you think we know, but since I told you and actually am unsure what I hope for in this specific case, I thought there's a possibility you had something else in mind.
I meant the enjoy the game in combination with the content of your posts. Always makes me smile :D
At this point of the discussion I'd be interested to see what would happen if Scan was actually "banned" from the TLC - mind you, no word about the TLS4 was said yet. A ton of top level players suddenly had to show up and actually play more than one tournament. I somewhat doubt that it'll be the case though, if it would, it'd be really stupid for everyone involved. I really wouldn't want to be the person to call the shots here lol.
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
Very true
Interesting, I thought you only knew how to say "wrong"
Anyways, there's a lot of information we can get and which we need so if/when we ban Scan, we have something to compare it to. Scan's win rate is not one of them as it is irrelevant. Even though it makes me feel queasy to ban a player as a part of an experiment, we may be forced to at this point.
I think that as a tournament organizer, you have to remember that this is business, not personal, especially when there is such a large prize pool on the line.
On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote: I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution. My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3 example: #1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2) #2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1) #3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
I would actually like some more discussion on this as a possibility. It feels a bit more fair in allowing more fluctuation of winners, and keeping interest quite up for some more newer players.
On July 25 2015 13:40 iCCup.Face wrote: I think in these kind of issues the personal opinion doesn't worth anything.
To think about something impartial to solve (or at least contain) the problem is the solution. My suggestion is to limit the access to next tournaments for the winners #1 #2 #3 example: #1 cant participate the next 3 tournaments (or 2) #2 cant participate the next 2 tournaments (or 1) #3 cant participate the next tournament (or no limit)
In this way if TL organizing 24 tours a semi-pro player can win max 6 or 8 tours.
I would actually like some more discussion on this as a possibility. It feels a bit more fair in allowing more fluctuation of winners, and keeping interest quite up for some more newer players.
no offense but I think thats a really bad idea, given the current state of foreign bw. the point of these tournaments is to increase activity, so preventing probably the most active players (the winners are usually going to be the more active ones) from even playing in more than half of the tournaments is working against, not for that goal. As well, it really hurts the competitive spirit of any tournament if the top players cant play again...you just get progressively weaker tournaments that dont matter as much, and players lose motivation to compete if their rivals arent playing, so even players that arnt banned in subsequent tournaments may not show up. People have busy enough schedules as it is, its really unlikely that the winner from one tournament is going to be able to show up to all of the others in the first place and we dont need to further reduce anyones ability to participate.
if the idea is to reduce scans ability to win every tour, just fucking ban scan for reasons myself and everyone else has already posted, and dont resort to a compromise that also hurts foreigners, like this one definitely would imo.
On July 31 2015 14:55 endy wrote: wow if I were the sponsor I'd tell you guys to gtfo and I'd go sponsor another game.
yeah this. the sponsor is the one making the tournament possible with the prize pool. And he must have his reasons to not exclude Scan in this tourney? If people dislike it then they should just go and create their own tourney, and since its their own they can ban Scan as much as they like.
endy and Probemicro all of that is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, the prize pool, and the sponsor of the event are not the issue at hand. As several have stated prior, the objective of this tournament is to raise awareness in the BW Foreign scene, etc, etc.
But yeah, going in circles and the endless cycle...not getting very far. :-p
On July 31 2015 15:33 GGzerG wrote: endy and Probemicro all of that is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, the prize pool, and the sponsor of the event are not the issue at hand. As several have stated prior, the objective of this tournament is to raise awareness in the BW Foreign scene, etc, etc.
But yeah, going in circles and the endless cycle...not getting very far. :-p
and?
sponsor has the $, hes the one that makes the final say, if you want to ban scan, which makes you feel that this would get more forigners to play and help improve the foreign scene, you have to really pursuade him (which doesnt seem to be working from the lack of concrete responses in this thread) or otherwise create your own tourney that bans Scan, how hard is that to understand?
in the chinese scene people have complain about the amount of koreans entering their tourneys and the bizarre rules (like the even/odd set offrace handicaps) given to said koreans, but theres nothing else you can do since sponsors love the korean players and feel that inviting them would boost publicity (which it did).
And rather than wasting more time spewing vitriol on the internet theres no shortage of donors willing to contribute to prizepools for chinese-only tournaments (whether 1v1 or otherwise)
So where's his final say then? It appears like he doesn't give much fuck about this particular problem. Besides, if he just said "no TvTs allowed, only isle maps" or some other retarded restriction - would you swallow it? It's obviously not a sponsor's pain in the ass to decide how the final product looks like, he just wants a nice big tournament. I would imagine he wants a healthy one instead of what we've had so far.
I think banning now Scan will be unfair. Admins are without imagination, but now is too late for changing rules. Just bear responsibility and say we fucked up. Maybe rename tour to Scan Cup Hard to believe that no one of the admins saw the potential problems like one sided and boring tour for the viewers.
Is there any lasting penalty if you can not show up due to real-life things going on (but you did register)? For example, will I be restricted from joining the following week(s)?
On August 01 2015 13:04 B-royal wrote: Is there any lasting penalty if you can not show up due to real-life things going on (but you did register)? For example, will I be restricted from joining the following week(s)?
Hopefully you will not go to Foreigner Jail, if you do I'll bail you out.
On August 01 2015 13:04 B-royal wrote: Is there any lasting penalty if you can not show up due to real-life things going on (but you did register)? For example, will I be restricted from joining the following week(s)?
No, if something happened and you couldn't make it, there's no penalty for not showing up. Given, it would be nice to have everyone who signed up make it but it's idealistic at best lol. We look forward to seeing your games in the near future
Well I know banning Scan was a heavy decision but no doubt it was the right one. The administration crew did their part. Now I would appeal to all the foreigner players who protested against Scan's participation to start registrering for the upcomming tournaments otherwise each of their statements was just trolling and whining.
Well I know banning Scan was a heavy decision but no doubt it was the right one. The administration crew did their part. Now I would appeal to all the foreigner players who protested against Scan's participation to start registrering for the upcomming tournaments otherwise each of their statements was just trolling and whining.
Scan probably chose to not participate because of all the jabbling here on the forums.
Yeah seems like a smart move from him, but let's wait and see
i doubt very much he would sign-in on last second. This discussion has enough drama as is and i think he won't contribute to it. If Scan decides to play in a TLC i think we will know soon enough for each one.
i doubt very much he would sign-in on last second. This discussion has enough drama as is and i think he won't contribute to it. If Scan decides to play in a TLC i think we will know soon enough for each one.
Scan probably chose to not participate because of all the jabbling here on the forums.
Yeah seems like a smart move from him, but let's wait and see
i doubt very much he would sign-in on last second. This discussion has enough drama as is and i think he won't contribute to it. If Scan decides to play in a TLC i think we will know soon enough for each one.
Scan probably chose to not participate because of all the jabbling here on the forums.
Yeah seems like a smart move from him, but let's wait and see
i doubt very much he would sign-in on last second. This discussion has enough drama as is and i think he won't contribute to it. If Scan decides to play in a TLC i think we will know soon enough for each one.
Sayle crowns Scan by nickname "Sir Congo" or "Congo Terran". Does that means bcz everybody saying Scan lagging? But XKCD's "Boogeyman" sounds pretty neat 'coz everyone here is freaked out.
On August 02 2015 02:47 13Julia wrote: Scan fanboys starting to attack from the begining:
Is that my smurf, can't remember, got over 9000 of 'em. But yeah, you got free pass at start, but still manage to fuck up your 1st game vs. nonamer. Is that how you proving yourself as a part of foreign pros?
On August 03 2015 08:47 outscar wrote: Sayle crowns Scan by nickname "Sir Congo" or "Congo Terran". Does that means bcz everybody saying Scan lagging? But XKCD's "Boogeyman" sounds pretty neat 'coz everyone here is freaked out.
I missed the first cast and i didn't see this game. As much as everyone finds Julia funny and bm he must be right about the lag vs Scan. I've played many games with him and he rarely misses a volley with the mutas when he is harassing the mineral line. There must've been a huge delay in-game.
On August 03 2015 08:47 outscar wrote: Sayle crowns Scan by nickname "Sir Congo" or "Congo Terran". Does that means bcz everybody saying Scan lagging? But XKCD's "Boogeyman" sounds pretty neat 'coz everyone here is freaked out.
The whole Congo Terran idea started with julia asking Scan "you from?" (presumably because of the lag). Scan responds: "Congo".
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 06:13 dRaW wrote: Decided to return to BW and practice after a long absence. The first game was a PvZ on fish ladder and he did a hydra bust...
On August 08 2015 19:19 dRaW wrote: out of sight out of mind, I didn't play/visit TL for a while so I forgot mostly everything. What's your gamer ID and did we ever meet offline?
nope, we never meet or played either (I'm a noob ). It's golden_phoenix ^^
EPT
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stimulate koreans is always welcome to help our scene,oh wait actually there are few who keep playing the game after all this years of TLS,but not reward at all when big tournament back just put one korean imba to win us all ^_^ Fantastic.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZodzCz8.jpg)
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FUCK BW!
