|
On July 01 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
Djzapz sadly undermines his argument by some factual flaws (like ISIS were Shia extremists)
Yeah that was a lapsus -_-. I was very tired and I'm more familiar with the terms in French, my first language, so I mixed them up but I know the basics. Nonetheless, I don't understand how it can be argued that it has nothing to do with Islam, to me it seems like a no true scotsman argument in a way. And while it's far disconnected from most western Muslims, they still have some supporters in our countries, influencers of sorts. He himself says that ISIS wants to exterminate Shia Muslims who they consider to be infidels, so not part of their faith the "real Islam" as far as they are concerned. How is that disconnected from Islam?
For instance, Christians from the Westboro Baptist church do some crazy things, yet they're still Christians but it's perhaps too small of a problem to be concerned about it. If Christians start bombing abortion clinics, certain people would say they weren't a "real Christian" which is bullshit but then we can start being concerned. And if it started happening on a large scale we'd think oh, maybe there's something unhealthy growing in some of those circles.
--
But yeah Big Fan and I are going to have to disagree regarding the caricatures thing. I think faith and religion are not outside of the realm of things we can discuss and mock, so long as we don't prevent people from practicing their religion. I don't think that religion is a special part of life, it's just another thing and I can make fun of a person's politics or whatever else. I think that a mature adult can make jokes about another mature adult and everyone should be able to keep their feelings in check, we're just kidding here.
As for why I decided to have most of this discussion under spoilers, it had nothing to do with mods. I was fine having this conversation with only a few people. Maybe it's a good thing seeing how I said something stupid after rambling for a few pages at night =_=.
If anyone cares about what I think and I don't know why anybody would, but in this video in spoilers at the bottom of my post, Sam Harris pretty much nails it for me. And the reaction of Ben Affleck is absolutely typical. Sam Harris explains in very sober and reasonable term that every criticism of the doctrine of Islam (regarding the treatment of women, or the existence of extremism), in is words, "gets conflated with bigotry towards Muslims as people." Ben Affleck *insantly* jumps in and proves the point. Harris didn't need to say much at all and someone instantly assumed oh, he's a racist. Harris then goes on to be extremely critical of Islam, in a way which is thought to be racist.
"Islam is the motherload of bad ideas", he says - and to me it would sound bad if it came from some stupid hick from the mountains, because you don't know what the motivations are behind something saying like that. However, Harris is an educated man, perhaps a little combative, but he's defended a neoliberal world view for a while now and from a progressive standpoint, it's true that if you're a liberal, if you're a Bernie Sanders 2016 type of guy, you probably aren't happy with the fact that Muslims want to decrease freedom of speech, many of them and the majority in some countries want the Sharia law... Saying "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas" sounds offensive as fuck, but when I compare them with my own I'm forced to agree with this. If another group of white people lived with these ideas that are so far disconnected from mine, for instance Scientologists, I could say "Scientology is the motherload of bad ideas" and no one would bat an eye because there's no latent possibility that I'm a bigoted piece of shit here, no one gives a fuck about Scientologists. So to me there's a disconnect here. So even if you disagree with freedom of expression, you disagree with liberal and progressive ideals, well I argue that we should be able to talk about it.
Lastly, Affleck's visceral dismissal of Harris's concerns stems largely from the fact that unfortunately, most people who bring up the questions don't want to discuss the subject. They're hateful. And so many people have lost (or never really had) the ability to see the difference between an asshole and someone who's political ideas differ greatly from those conveyed by Islam. Fuck, Harris mentions in the video, 78% of British Muslims wanted the Danish cartoonist guy who got assassinated to be prosecuted. 78%! The statistics for the stupid shit southern US states do are not that damning to my eye. The rate of female genital mutilation for reasons that we're too aware of... Can we not talk about these, can we not be concerned? And when Harris says that there is this large group of Muslims who don't stand for this shit and these Muslims must be defended from the rest, Affleck retorts by saying that Harris is essentially throwing them all under the bus, completely ignoring what Harris said. He's pointing at the various groups of Muslims that are problematic and saying these are bad, these other ones are good, and yet Affleck is completely closed off, doesn't hear anything, refuses to exercise critical thought.
And my two main points were tackled by Harris in the video. My concerns are that
-The jihadists and the Islamists represent a larger proportion of the Muslim population than we really think. He says 20%, even if it's 5 or 10% I think it's not negligible. And I'm sure it's not that many in the West but nonetheless it's a problem
-Outside of those people, you have the conservative muslims, who's politics don't mesh at all with mine. I think it makes sense for me to criticize those in the same way that I criticize other conservatives in my own country, and in other western countries.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On July 01 2015 19:09 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 18:52 SixStrings wrote:
If men had balls sprouting off their chests...
Well, if a thought like that enters one's mind, one knows the thread is lost to one. Do you realise that your identification of boobs as a sexual symbol and non-idetification of hair/neck as such is purely cultural?
well, i assume there must be a thing in that men have necks and yet (most) men don't have boobs.
|
so this is the thread where you can bash islam baselessly without getting warned?
|
On July 01 2015 22:26 sAsImre wrote:
so this is the thread where you can bash islam baselessly without getting warned?
Please tell me where I bashed anything O_o. I criticized, I said that some of the morals of certain groups of Muslims clash with my ideals, I've brought up some of the practices that I don't like.
What unreasonable thing have I said? BigFan is a Muslim and we discussed briefly last night in a civil manner. He agreed to disagree with me on some points, and I think if he reads my previous post he'll disagree some more and we'll talk about it. I don't think anyone can read what I said and think I'm bashing Islam, otherwise I've also bashed republicans and I've bashed anti-gay marriage people and I've bashed pro-lifers and I've bashed the government of Quebec and the supporters of some political parties and I've bashed a fuckload of people. And now I decided to "bash" certain segments of Islamic doctine just like I would "bash" any other conflicting viewpoint.
So why is it suddenly bashing. -_-
Edit: This is my last post here, unless BigFan cares to continue it (well, I'll try to cut it anyway). For everybody else, PM me if you want to discuss this (but I've said everything I wanted to say). If you think I'm an asshole, well so be it. I think I was reasonable, and I'm not opposed to Islam as a faith, and I'm happy to live in a country with diversity, with different people of different ethnic backgrounds and different faiths. But I will fight against ideals who are different from mine, and I refuse to be told that certain discussions cannot take place. I like to talk about these things, it allows me to sometimes adjust or change my positions altogether, it allows me to learn about stuff, and it makes me really sad that some people want to prevent it from happening.
Cheers.
|
On July 01 2015 02:35 The_Templar wrote:
He's asking why books that are aimed towards or against a group of people in an undesirable way are allowed when the same kind of symbols aren't. By comparing the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf, he's putting both in a very negative context and basically saying that Islams are literally like hitler.
Why is he not allowed to express the opinion that islam is on the same level of evil as national socialism?
|
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 01 2015 18:04 opisska wrote:
One thing irks me really: BigFan, I am sorry, but you just do not understand the concept of freedom in the same way in which people like me see it. Your idea of freedom is so disconnected from mine that one of us should probably start using a different word. In my world, there is absolutely zero question about that the idea that one's freedom should be limited by others' feelings is completely ridiculous. You should think about that.
Figured that not many on here would have similar thoughts on my idea of freedom so not really surprised. I've already given it enough thought on my part so my original point sticks, sorry mate but that's how I see things. We obviously have different thoughts on it but I value people's feelings and emotions and feel that they are important if we are to create a better world tommorrow or the next day. Either way, I wasn't trying to sway anyone with any of my points so I'm fine with us disagreeing 
@Djzapz yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on the caricatures. I'm sure many muslims see the initial ones being done out of malice more than anything else. To see our prophet Mohammed (pbuh) degraded in such a way when his reputation among both muslims and non-muslims has been stellar is nothing short of hurtful and uncalled for. You call it as making a joke or poking fun among mature adults but doubt many muslims will agree with you on that.
As for the rest, only thing that I can tell you is that the context and history are really important to understanding muslims. You brought up some good points in the argument, but since I frequent a lot of forums, new sites etc... and have read similar concerns before, none of them are really surprising to me. Muslim culture is also different from other cultures and I'm sure that can play a role in some of your dislikes. We had a good conversation and I'm sure we'll have another at some point in time.
No, I don't think you're an asshole lol. I think you're just interested in learning more which I see as a good thing. I'm only disappointed that I couldn't provide you with better detailed answers to satisfy your curiosity. Till next time!
|
Cheers
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
I just want to say, maybe this is a strong statement. But I think that the religion of islam is ok and certainly better than the nazi party.
In general it isn't worth getting in fights with moderators.
|
he's pretty blatantly saying that all three things are symbols of hatred
why is that even being debated
|
On July 02 2015 05:13 QuanticHawk wrote:
he's pretty blatantly saying that all three things are symbols of hatred
why is that even being debated
That shouldn't be ban or warn worthy
He's criticizing an ideology, not a race.
|
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit
|
This is a pretty topical question in modern media, isn't it?
I was always staunchly opposed to censorship in any way, but recently I've been reconsidering it. I've made the arguments myself, largely based on what John Stuart Mill has to say about the value of the minority and the danger of a dogma even if its true, etc... etc... but really, when some young know-it-all says stupid racist shit in self-righteous way, is that really contributing to social dialogue? I'm not sure where I stand, but I'm certainly having my doubts. Political critiques should be protected obviously, and philosophy should be openly discussed, and I get the slippery-slopes argument and Milton's point about the impossibility of finding trustworthy censors, but the media and speech today isn't what it used to be - it's something much expanded... I don't know, I'm genuinely confused about where I stand on this sort of issue.
|
On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit
If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple.
I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam.
|
On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam.
The problem with that undertaking is that it is far too immature to stand on its own two feet; it simply doesn't make sense to compare ideologies in that way, particularly when one takes into account the historical differentiation at play in the comparison. Holding an ideology in low regard is not in itself an actionable basis for a comparison with another ideology that is objectively "bad"; in fact, when that sort of reasoning underpins an argument, it almost always indicates a lack of merit in the argument itself. In the words of Gilbert Ryle, you'd be committing the worst kind of category-mistake, one that turns on the vulgarities of bias instead of genuine curiosity or understanding.
Furthermore, statements made in public are generally conferred a greater degree of tolerance when said statements themselves show at least a modicum of it. Accordingly, it isn't exactly hard to see why lazily lumping Islam as a general concept together with things like Nazism would run into resistance, resistance that is quite justified to be frank. It shows a basic misunderstanding as to the fact that the vast, vast majority of muslims in the world today are entirely peaceful, humble, and otherwise "good" people who have not warranted such a gross comparison of their faith with the ideology of National Socialism. I mean, come on, we have yet another category error at work here. Nazism is a socio-political ideology that is tied to a very particular period of time and belief in human history. Islam, and Christianity for that matter, are far more vast, commingled with the other belief and motivation systems at work in human society, and significantly less consistent with themselves throughout history. For hundreds of years, the teachings of Islam and Christianity have shaped practically the entire worldview of huge numbers of the world's historical population.
In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it.
|
farva entire nails why it was a stupid ass comment, especially the last sentence. a comment like that deserves a very thorough explanation, not a drive by one liner
|
On July 02 2015 22:54 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam. In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it.
Right, except I never compared Nazism to Islam. I compared to the Quran to Mein Kampf.
There's a great deal of difference between comparing two books and comparing two ideologies, especially since I was only comparing the books in one aspect: Both incite the killing of jews.
|
On July 03 2015 03:52 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 22:54 farvacola wrote:On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam. In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it. Right, except I never compared Nazism to Islam. I compared to the Quran to Mein Kampf. There's a great deal of difference between comparing two books and comparing two ideologies, especially since I was only comparing the books in one aspect: Both incite the killing of jews.
But you are comparing the two. The Quran is the holy text of Muslims, and Mein Kampf is the personal philosophy and beliefs (or whatever you call it) of the founder, ruler, and champion of Nazism. They are not just books. You can't call them "books" when what they represent is obviously much more, and you are fully aware of this. You're that guy probably tells people at a party, "I'm not calling YOU stupid, it's just that what you are saying is stupid."
|
On July 03 2015 03:52 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 22:54 farvacola wrote:On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam. In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it. Right, except I never compared Nazism to Islam. I compared to the Quran to Mein Kampf. There's a great deal of difference between comparing two books and comparing two ideologies, especially since I was only comparing the books in one aspect: Both incite the killing of jews.
You can't criticize Islam. All you'll get is people blinded by political correctness jumping through hoops to tell you that you need to shut up and respect Islam - or - crazy right-wing bigots that you don't ever want to be associated with endorsing you.
|
On July 04 2015 13:10 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 03:52 SixStrings wrote:On July 02 2015 22:54 farvacola wrote:On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam. In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it. Right, except I never compared Nazism to Islam. I compared to the Quran to Mein Kampf. There's a great deal of difference between comparing two books and comparing two ideologies, especially since I was only comparing the books in one aspect: Both incite the killing of jews. You can't criticize Islam. All you'll get is people blinded by political correctness jumping through hoops to tell you that you need to shut up and respect Islam - or - crazy right-wing bigots that you don't ever want to be associated with endorsing you.
You can criticize Islam all you want (or at least should be able to), but what you can't do is be disingenuous about it and compare the key text to Nazi propaganda and deny your implication. It would be the same if I said, "the bible is hate-filled garbage" but when challenged, I insisted I was not saying anything negative about Christians or Christianity.
|
On July 04 2015 13:19 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2015 13:10 ninazerg wrote:On July 03 2015 03:52 SixStrings wrote:On July 02 2015 22:54 farvacola wrote:On July 02 2015 21:39 vOdToasT wrote:On July 02 2015 21:12 QuanticHawk wrote:
No he's not lol
criticism would be if he said the qu'ran symbolizes hate and gave specific examples of that.
he said it symbolizes hate just like the confederate flag and mein kampf, that's it. one is criticism, the other is stupid inflammatory shit If we assume that national socialism is an ideology which he holds in low regard (a safe assumption), then putting other ideologies in the same category is a criticism of that ideology. It's that simple. I think that he should be allowed to criticize any ideology. He wasn't trolling, nor being racist. He was expressing his views on islam. In pulling it all together, comparing islam with nazism without an incredible degree of nuance and space given is an obtuse, ahistorical, offensive, and downright stupid thing to do. Ya just shouldn't do it. Right, except I never compared Nazism to Islam. I compared to the Quran to Mein Kampf. There's a great deal of difference between comparing two books and comparing two ideologies, especially since I was only comparing the books in one aspect: Both incite the killing of jews. You can't criticize Islam. All you'll get is people blinded by political correctness jumping through hoops to tell you that you need to shut up and respect Islam - or - crazy right-wing bigots that you don't ever want to be associated with endorsing you. You can criticize Islam all you want (or at least should be able to), but what you can't do is be disingenuous about it and compare the key text to Nazi propaganda and deny your implication. It would be the same if I said, "the bible is hate-filled garbage" but when challenged, I insisted I was not saying anything negative about Christians or Christianity.
That's the kicker, isn't it? This whole 'religious tolerance' thing is basically even a thing because Christians would look like huge hypocrites condemning Islam openly, wouldn't they? Put that aside and suddenly, you can see that people are writing some crazy books, other people are structuring their lives around these books, and some people are killing because they are defending what they believe to be an attack on their very livelihood.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
