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User was warned for this post: please don't put Mein Kampf and the Qu'ran in the same category
Why not?
Because one ideology is still popular today and the other one isn't?
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TLADT23759 Posts
I'm surprised that SixStrings is still around. The guy has terrible mod history and posts inflammatory content regarding Islam every chance he gets. Mods ban reason is very legit imo.
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Should be banned for ignorance and stupidity, political correctness doesnt even have to come into it
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THE FUTURE52463 Posts
He's asking why books that are aimed towards or against a group of people in an undesirable way are allowed when the same kind of symbols aren't. By comparing the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf, he's putting both in a very negative context and basically saying that Islams are literally like hitler.
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some Arabs found common cause with Nazi Germany against colonial regimes in the region. The influence of the Nazis in the Arab world grew though the 1930s.
It seems apparent that this has more to do with resisting colonial oppression, than finding common cause with Nazi ideology. Also, putting the Koran and Mein Kampf in the same category is ridiculous, and obvious bait. They're just not comparable, and unless you're also comfortable putting the Bible next to Mein Kampf, it's hypocritical (and comparing Mein Kampf with the Bible would also, of course, be ridiculous)
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Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right?
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political correctness and not acting like xenophobic fuck are 2 different things
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On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right?
Yes, this was my first reaction really. My argument was once derailed and strawmanned because I used some neo-nazi analogy in a completely inoffensive way (as an example of something undesireable) and people just freaked out and missed the whole point.
On July 01 2015 02:35 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +some Arabs found common cause with Nazi Germany against colonial regimes in the region. The influence of the Nazis in the Arab world grew though the 1930s. It seems apparent that this has more to do with resisting colonial oppression, than finding common cause with Nazi ideology. Also, putting the Koran and Mein Kampf in the same category is ridiculous, and obvious bait. They're just not comparable, and unless you're also comfortable putting the Bible next to Mein Kampf, it's hypocritical (and comparing Mein Kampf with the Bible would also, of course, be ridiculous)
Fair enough, just saying they might not be that mad, they are a certain portion of them who are anti semites too. (in my country for example.)
But yea about the rest please refer to oppsika's point above.
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On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right?
Dude : do you even know about SixStrings' mod and posting history? He already grasped like every chance he ever had to push the points that the Quran is evil because the Quran explicitly incites to kill people (while according to him the Bible is free of everything of that sort), that Islam at its root is not compatible with scientific & societal progress (factually because historically false) and that all Muslims are either barbarians or terrorists (I don't think I'll even comment on this one). Once you factor this in, there's little doubt that he wasn't just putting Mein Kampf and the Quran side to side by coincidence, and what he meant becomes clear as crystal.
And even if the mods would ignore his post history (and afaik they don't ignore it), putting the Quran as an example of a book that actively incite to hate and violence is not only stupid and ignorant, but also dishonest, as it ignores 99.999% of the book. Meanwhile, Mein Kampf is a book which contains a vast majority of content pushing for hatred and violence.
Lastly, your comparison is bad because it doesn't involve a positive or negative judgment like the originally incriminated sentence. You comparison would be valid if he simply said "Mein Kampf and the Qu'ran are two examples of books.", which is factually correct.
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On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right?
"The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC."
He was comparing the two, quite clearly. The idea that the warning wouldn't happen if he'd said "Butterflies and Humans are two living things", is irrelevant because that isn't a contentious notion, nor is it being discussed. The equivalent would be if he said that "the Koran and Mein Kampf are both books" (even this would actually be somewhat incorrect). He put them in the same category, and said that one was as bad as the other, which is an extremely contentious and ignorant thing to say so flippantly, without even giving due justification. It's detrimental to whatever is being discussed.
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On July 01 2015 03:37 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right? Dude : do you even know about SixStrings' mod and posting history? He already grasped like every chance he ever had to push the points that the Quran is evil because the Quran explicitly incites to kill people (while according to him the Bible is free of everything of that sort), that Islam at its root is not compatible with scientific & societal progress (factually because historically false) and that all Muslims are either barbarians or terrorists (I don't think I'll even comment on this one). Once you factor this in, there's little doubt that he wasn't just putting Mein Kampf and the Quran side to side by coincidence, and what he meant becomes clear as crystal. And even if the mods would ignore his post history (and afaik they don't ignore it), putting the Quran as an example of a book that actively incite to hate and violence is not only stupid and ignorant, but also dishonest, as it ignores 99.999% of the book. Meanwhile, Mein Kampf is a book which contains a vast majority of content pushing for hatred and violence. Lastly, your comparison is bad because it doesn't involve a positive or negative judgment like the originally incriminated sentence. You comparison would be valid if he simply said "Mein Kampf and the Qu'ran are two examples of books.", which is factually correct.
Well, I know that you probably know that I know about SixString's moderation history, however the relevance of that was instantly destroyed by the wording of the warning. He is not warned for labelling Quran as being hateful (if he were, I would simply sigh silently and move on), he is warned for putting it alongside Mein Kampf, which screams a mindless "no, you don't do THAT, that's not riiiiiight" more than anything else.
Even though I have some opinions on the underlying discussion, I don't really want to discuss merits of religion here, the soil for that discussion on TL is drier than California. However I stand by the observation that he was essentially banned for a politically incorrect statement in a thread about political correctness, which is the pinnacle of irony, even though no bets were voided that day.
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On July 01 2015 03:49 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 03:37 OtherWorld wrote:On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right? Dude : do you even know about SixStrings' mod and posting history? He already grasped like every chance he ever had to push the points that the Quran is evil because the Quran explicitly incites to kill people (while according to him the Bible is free of everything of that sort), that Islam at its root is not compatible with scientific & societal progress (factually because historically false) and that all Muslims are either barbarians or terrorists (I don't think I'll even comment on this one). Once you factor this in, there's little doubt that he wasn't just putting Mein Kampf and the Quran side to side by coincidence, and what he meant becomes clear as crystal. And even if the mods would ignore his post history (and afaik they don't ignore it), putting the Quran as an example of a book that actively incite to hate and violence is not only stupid and ignorant, but also dishonest, as it ignores 99.999% of the book. Meanwhile, Mein Kampf is a book which contains a vast majority of content pushing for hatred and violence. Lastly, your comparison is bad because it doesn't involve a positive or negative judgment like the originally incriminated sentence. You comparison would be valid if he simply said "Mein Kampf and the Qu'ran are two examples of books.", which is factually correct. Well, I know that you probably know that I know about SixString's moderation history, however the relevance of that was instantly destroyed by the wording of the warning. He is not warned for labelling Quran as being hateful (if he were, I would simply sigh silently and move on), he is warned for putting it alongside Mein Kampf, which screams a mindless "no, you don't do THAT, that's not riiiiiight" more than anything else. Even though I have some opinions on the underlying discussion, I don't really want to discuss merits of religion here, the soil for that discussion on TL is drier than California. However I stand by the observation that he was essentially banned for a politically incorrect statement in a thread about political correctness, which is the pinnacle of irony, even though no bets were voided that day.
What marttorn said, then. And I fail to see how the wording of the warning renders his mod/posting history irrelevant ; on the contrary, it precisely allows the mod to have no doubt about what his real intention was with his sentence.
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For the record, I did not expect anyone to agree with me, I just got angry and wanted to vent. Actually, it happens more and more often that TL makes me angry and I will probably need to do something about it. First thing would be stop reading General, second, much harder, removing ABL from subsrcibed threads. That place use to be so weirdly calming, now it's just a parade of reasones to get upset about interspersed with mods competing who bans people better.
If I could convince myself to do those two things, I could maybe just go to LRs (even though I can't post much, because I am too slow of a typer for that pace and don't want to miss the actual games, or, worse, the wisdom of Artosis) and read a weirdo blog once in a while and live happily ever after.
Today, for therapeutic reasons, I went to read som SRS and antisrs, at least I have that to remind me that in relative terms, TL is still pretty sane.
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Islam is super easy to criticize in a sober and reasonable way. Just comparing it to nazism is inflammatory. Also this board is not too well adapted for discussing religious stuff. SJWs will say there's no problem with Islam and everyone is being a dick, other people will lump all Muslims together and suggest that they're all extremists. Might as well cut insanely inflammatory stuff before it goes full out crazy.
+ Show Spoiler +Organized religion is dangerous and many "moderate" Muslims support the actions of extremists (a LOT of "regular" Muslims worldwide are perfectly fine with the senseless massacre of the Charlie Hebdo folks.) None of it has anything to do with Hitler. Discussing touchy subjects with ridiculous nonsense is not a good idea.
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On July 01 2015 03:37 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 03:11 opisska wrote:
Expectedly, the irony is lost on everyone who has replied. He just made two examples, he did not even compare one against the other and literaly made no comments on their similarity. If I say that humans and butterflies are an example of living creatures, am I saying that humans are basically the same as butterflies? He just made examples of two things that he would not allow while allowing some other thing and presumably if he used any one of those, it would have been "correct".
The warning is obviously triggered by the unthinkability of seeing "Quran" and "Main Kampf" so uncomfortably next to each other, and that feeling has obviously arisen from PC. If this were any other two things, that are just vaguely related, not one that has "religion" and other that has "Hitler" on it, noone would blink an eye, but this merely putting these two in one sentence is politically incorrect enough to warrant a warning - in a thread about how stupid PC is.
There is really nothing to discuss and no excuses to be made, since the warning was spelled out, so there is no room for creative interpretation. The rest of the guy's posting is irrelevant to the matter. "He should be banned for ignorance and stupidity" is just a way to veil the requirement of PC to other words, so that it does not seem so obvious.
Anyway, the paradox is the same as always: why does TL even allow threads on a topic (PC, in this case) when the stance on that topic is already mandated by the moderation? Where is the room for a discussion, when it has been already decided, what is right? Dude : do you even know about SixStrings' mod and posting history? He already grasped like every chance he ever had to push the points that the Quran is evil because the Quran explicitly incites to kill people (while according to him the Bible is free of everything of that sort), that Islam at its root is not compatible with scientific & societal progress (factually because historically false) and that all Muslims are either barbarians or terrorists (I don't think I'll even comment on this one). Once you factor this in, there's little doubt that he wasn't just putting Mein Kampf and the Quran side to side by coincidence, and what he meant becomes clear as crystal. And even if the mods would ignore his post history (and afaik they don't ignore it), putting the Quran as an example of a book that actively incite to hate and violence is not only stupid and ignorant, but also dishonest, as it ignores 99.999% of the book. Meanwhile, Mein Kampf is a book which contains a vast majority of content pushing for hatred and violence. Lastly, your comparison is bad because it doesn't involve a positive or negative judgment like the originally incriminated sentence. You comparison would be valid if he simply said "Mein Kampf and the Qu'ran are two examples of books.", which is factually correct.
Wow, I don't even know where to start. This is utterly unfair.
You're either extremely disingenuous or you really have a bad memory.
I have repeatedly made it clear that
a) I obviously don't think that Muslims are 'barbarians or terrorists'. I've made that so abundantly clear in so many posts...
b) I frequently said that the bible isn't better. The Old Testament is equally violent, the new testament is more peaceful but equally unpleasant.
c) I realise that you can make a peaceful religion out of a terrible book. Judaism seems much more appealing to me than Christianity, yet their "origin story" is much more violent. Yet they managed to make a progressive, inclusive, science embracing religion out of that.
What you are right about, though: I didn't put those books side by side by accident.
Why do people just assume I'm lying instead of reading the damn thing? I don't understand this. It's literally a book about killing infidels, including jews. It's VERY like Mein Kampf in that regard, albeit much better written.
Is it part of your political correctness that you're so afraid of being proven wrong that you won't even open the book?
Open it in the middle, though, it starts out rather peaceful. Though as Muhammed's power and influence grows, so does his pugnacity. The latter two thirds are literally all violence against non-believers.
I didn't want to be provocative. I didn't want to incite hate. I just thought of two books that are very similar in their message.
So sorry, opisska. I wasn't being clever or ironic, I just don't have some kind of reverence for a book that by any other name would be filed under 'Hateful antisemitic propaganda'.
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On July 01 2015 02:35 The_Templar wrote:
He's asking why books that are aimed towards or against a group of people in an undesirable way are allowed when the same kind of symbols aren't. By comparing the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf, he's putting both in a very negative context and basically saying that Islams are literally like hitler.
That's a stupid and absurd thing to say.
Comparing one aspect of the books (both incite people to kill jews) is in no way the same as comparing Muslims to Nazis.
First of all, nobody even read Mein fucking Kampf, albeit Hitler-critical scholars. It was distributed and treated like the bible by the Nazis, but you would have been hard pressed to find even Burschen from the Hiterjugend to tell you what the thing is about.
Ah forget it, this is pointless.
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On July 01 2015 04:49 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 02:35 The_Templar wrote:
He's asking why books that are aimed towards or against a group of people in an undesirable way are allowed when the same kind of symbols aren't. By comparing the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf, he's putting both in a very negative context and basically saying that Islams are literally like hitler. First of all, nobody even read Mein fucking Kampf, albeit Hitler-critical scholars. It was distributed and treated like the bible by the Neo-Nazis, but you would have been hard pressed to find even Burschen from the Hiterjugend to tell you what the thing is about.
This is not correct. The idea that nobody read Mein Kampf is a post war myth, and was shown to be false. There was a great demand in public libraries and it found big sales quantity long before it was freely distributed.
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WCS
