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On December 16 2014 19:18 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 19:16 Kraznaya wrote:On December 16 2014 19:13 Laurens wrote:
I'd take that bet any day.
if being in his position is so easy, why havent you done it yet It requires balls of steel to give up on education/job and go pro dota. Alas I don't have them. I respect EE a lot for making the jump and going pro. I do not respect him for this blog.
The reason it requires balls of steel is because having a solid education and a job is so much better than going pro dota.
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Hey dude,
I wish I could see you guys play with the same passion as before. It used to motivate me so much knowing that there were people who were so dedicated to something they love that they'd practice 3 hours a day just to become the best. That made me so motivated to get better at shit I had to deal with in life as well as Dota. Now it's just kinda sad to watch how you guys view the game and don't really have motivation. I could give my opinion on what you guys could do but it would honestly mean nothing since I'm not in any position to say such but I hope you guys find motivation soon.
Honestly, you and Arteezy were my favourite players for a long time just because of the insight and passion you guys brought into the game. I mean seeing your original post, I was pretty skeptical, as I imagine a lot of people were. But as I saw you play in more tournaments, I realized just how much devotion you had to the game. Just how far you were willing to go and how much you put into the game. It was pretty inspiring because honestly it made me think of how I could never do something like that and I wish I could. I admired your tenacity and your courage to pursue something you dreamed of and believed in.
I hope you guys find a solution soon (other than TI5 coming up... I'm sure that's enough motivation once that hits haha). It'd be nice to see you guys tweet about more inspiring shit than just the usual meme shit.
- A fan
P.S. I never buy tournament tickets, because honestly I am poor university student, but I bought the compendium to vote for you guys, and so did many people. Fans are always going to be there as long as you be yourself.
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When will teams start picking their battles and not join every single tournament they can possibly squeeze in into their schedule? That is the biggest problem with the Dota2 scene right now
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Though EE makes some fair points, notably: the casting, he does come off as an entitled bratty kid with this post. He could use a solid dose of pragmatism and someone to bring him back to this planet.
Dota is constantly developing, this year was trashy (also due to meta game), but the amount of money up for grabs between all these tournaments is, in the least, respectable. And should be more than enough to stimulate a healthy professional scene. Unfortunately, though the money is here, the know-how and experience is not.
E-sports in general suffers from a bit of a stigma from other mainstream sports and tv. At the same time its been monopolized by a small elite of people who managed to worm themselves into the scene, and not because they produce quality content, or posses any analytical ability, its more of a right place, right time thing (talking about casters here).
All those casters develop some kind of ego because 50-100k ppl are watching them, so they think they must be saying something good (their not). And now you get tournaments cast by 5 people, analyzed by another 4, presented by another two, just stoopid.
I think a start would be to standardize tournament formats, (like in tennis all the grand slams follow the same seeding, and fixture systems), there can still be difference in tournament set-up.
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Northern Ireland22203 Posts
i dont see how because ee is in a "privileged" position of earning money for playing games, he isn't entitled to air his concerns about his job
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I think its kinda bullshit. There are never enough tournaments, pro's should just stop whining about that. Dont be too greedy and just sign up for less tournaments, maybe then you will care if you win or loose. You are acting like you deserve to be part of every pricepool in dota2 and thats ridiculous.
If the teams decide to not sign up out of greed for every freaking tournament, all the facts stated in this blog would not have happened. Dont redraw reality envy, the only ones that can change almost all of it are the teams themselves.
Edit, small example : Why would almost all the top western teams participate in a mediocre prizepool tournament like dota pit league? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Dota_Pit_League/Season_2
Only answer is freaking greed, so stop crying.
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You're not forced to participate in X tournaments per year.
In fact smaller and upcoming teams would appreciate if T1 teams pulled out of more tournaments and focused on the biggest ones.
As for casters, yeah, they should read patch notes more and analyse teams better. I think Tobi did it best. Tobi can predict drafting sometimes better than his (pro) co-casters.
Also, a heads up - it's not going to get easier for anyone. If more LGDs, VGs and so on participate in western tournaments, good luck.
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I think Valve's hands-off attitude is starting to show issues, but it doesn't necessarily cause them any more trouble than if they continued to do nothing
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Huge props for throwing it out there, and getting the discussion started.
To those people who say, "Just play in fewer tourneys"--it's not that simple. Entering a tournament is like getting a ticket in a lottery, where the prize is money or exposure. From the team's perspective, it makes sense to participate in as many as possible (since it doesn't cost money). But the PLAYERS and the SCENE suffer as a result.
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On December 16 2014 20:00 WindWolf wrote:
When will teams start picking their battles and not join every single tournament they can possibly squeeze in into their schedule? That is the biggest problem with the Dota2 scene right now
Cause it's a matter of money. The western scene probably doesn't have salaries for players comparable to that of league players competing in LCS. Prize money remains their livelihood. Each tournament they play in represents a possible payday. And, even then, tournament winnings are not just split 5 ways. There's income tax that must be paid, a portion that may be paid out to the team organization, and a separate share that would go to the manager. That $75k that C9 just won at the Summit 2? You're looking at maybe just over take-home of 10k a player, assuming a 20% tax on the gross, and C9 taking 10k for paying the manager and providing various services to the team. You also have to consider that C9 didn't even qualify either - and would have been paid nothing for the month of games in qualifiers they had to play.
With such a top heavy prize distribution, you can't rely on placing 1st in the tournaments you do pick to participate in if you're not by-far-and-far the best.
And for those complaining about how much they get paid: EE lives in Toronto - not a cheap city by any stretch of the word.
Oh, and here's the kicker: Without TI proping them up, C9's winnings this past year, so far, has been about 380000. Sounds like a lot. Again, let's apply 20% tax, 10% of remaining gets paid to organization (and manager), and suddenly, each player is only receiving 55k per year - certainly better than some people, but in the grand scheme of things, not a whole lot either (considering they should be considered near the top!)
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You have rly good points in this blog, but, for the fuck, Envy, you are playing fucking game and rising money. For now you have much more $ then someone of us will have for all his life. WE are going on REAL job every day, doing everything to subsist. Then we coming home after hard day and reading smth about prize money. R u fucking ego or what? Tournament prizepools big enough for your salary and you complaining here about it is not enough for you? Complaining about viewers need to buy more tickets for your fat ass and etc. And what we will eat doesnt care. Pro players the most important thing in life. And fucking yes - $10 in our country too fucking huge number to spend it on nothing helpful for us, especially several times a month. Just fuck yourself, bro.
User was warned for this post
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I agree with govie and zdfgucker that it would be good for the scene if T1 teams pulled out of smaller tournaments but as long as nobody knows how Valve decides who to invite to TI I can't blame anybody. Is every tournament worth the same "points" -> playing every tournament and collecting every 1st to 3rd place is extremely valuable even if you get a few group stage exits in other tournaments.
With 1 standout tournament each year you can't expect pros to willingly lower their chances of getting there.
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On December 16 2014 20:26 Mirray wrote:
You have rly good points in this blog, but, for the fuck, Envy, you are playing fucking game and rising money. For now you have much more $ then someone of us will have for all his life. WE are going on REAL job every day, doing everything to subsist. Then we coming home after hard day and reading smth about prize money. R u fucking ego or what? Tournament prizepools big enough for your salary and you complaining here about it is not enough for you? Complaining about viewers need to buy more tickets for your fat ass and etc. And what we will eat doesnt care. Pro players the most important thing in life. And fucking yes - $10 in our country too fucking huge number to spend it on nothing helpful for us, especially several times a month. Just fuck yourself, bro.
You didn't even read the blog, he's not complaining about prizepool at all, but the conditions he and all the players are facing
Someone just ban this raging kid or something
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Saying the quality of casting in Dota2 is way below other esports is pretty ridiculous, honestly. First I will acknowledge that there are a lot of casters who are less knowledgeable than we would like. But I watch a lot of different esports and most of the casting is either overhyped trash ("WOW! SUCH PLAY! AMAZING! FANTASTIC! HOLY SHIT!" about totally mundane stuff) which is the result of certain interested parties controlling the scene, or at least as ignorant as some of the more prominent examples you get in Dota2 (or a combination of the two).
When Dota2 casters are knowledgeable, they tend to either be boring or, in their supreme knowledge of the game, say total nonsense that is quickly shown to not be the case. Prime example? You, Envy-kun. You're a highly experienced player with a huge amount of game knowledge in your head, but your in-game analysis - the synthesis of all these facts you impressively bring up - is frequently crap. Most pros are like this. It is extraordinarily rare that casters are knowledgeable AND interesting to listen to AND not consistently fucking wrong in their analysis.
And it's super neat, as someone who makes six digits, to lean back and go "yeah, the casters sure aren't doing an adequate job," but how much are they getting paid? How much of their real-cost-of-labor is being paid instead of to them, to you? Have you ever even bothered to find out?
Live broadcasting is very difficult. There's a reason that people get paid quite a lot for it when they are good at it. And guess what? The Dota2 scene, mostly, isn't doing that right now, either from lack of available money or lack of available give-a-fucks.
The pro player scene is maturing to the point that it is supporting a good number of players with real money. Casting, on the other hand, is still very much in the "love of the game" stage. So go flame someone else for "not caring." Casters are there for us, the fans, not for you. Judge them on that basis. They're getting paid a lot less to show up a hell of a lot more consistently than many of you "top" teams.
And for those complaining about how much they get paid: EE lives in Toronto - not a cheap city by any stretch of the word.
Sorry but if you make most of your money online or in locations you are flown to you get zero sympathy for living in an expensive city.
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Pointless question - why is EE's hero set to lich? (like, did it default to that or did he actually set it to lich?)
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On December 16 2014 20:24 dizzy101 wrote:
Huge props for throwing it out there, and getting the discussion started.
To those people who say, "Just play in fewer tourneys"--it's not that simple. Entering a tournament is like getting a ticket in a lottery, where the prize is money or exposure. From the team's perspective, it makes sense to participate in as many as possible (since it doesn't cost money). But the PLAYERS and the SCENE suffer as a result.
it doesn't cost money but it isn't free either, exactly because it takes up a lot of time. They could instead use this time to relax and prepare better for the more important tournaments and thereby increase their expected share of the prize money. There is clear scientific evidence that being overworked reduces overall performance and productivity.
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Lalalaland34478 Posts
On December 16 2014 20:40 Nevuk wrote:
Pointless question - why is EE's hero set to lich? (like, did it default to that or did he actually set it to lich?)
People are randomly assigned heroes at the beginning and EE probably hasn't changed it.
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Well besides his point about whining or what not, I think the biggest problem is just the simple fact that it's exhuasting as a viewer to follow all the tournaments.
That point really gets lost between everything else
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On December 16 2014 20:45 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 20:40 Nevuk wrote:
Pointless question - why is EE's hero set to lich? (like, did it default to that or did he actually set it to lich?) People are randomly assigned heroes at the beginning and EE probably hasn't changed it.
Yeah, that's what I assumed. Just thought it was funny as I don't think I've ever even heard of him playing lich.
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Awesome read. Gets right to the point of it.
Thanks for sharing
EDIT: I think personally I would enjoy top-tier teams playing less because it increases the excitement factor. Over the past 2 months I watched a shitton of pro dota due to illness and I barely ever got really into it. The closest was the summit 2 (having players as casters helped a lot), but I never felt that 'holy shit this is going to be awesome' feeling
I am very down with reducing the amount of tourneys pro players have to play and allowing pro players to take a more focused approach to the game, not only does this produce higher quality games, but also showcases a more cerebral side of DotA in which strategies become more intricate.
That would be cool
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EPT
