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i fully agree with you Envy.
you took time to stand up and voice up for things that were painfully obvious.
amongst too many tournaments (SHITTY ADMINS)
too many useless casters just farting snorting nonsense filling air with sideshow jokes instead of real knowledge
2015. time to clean up the dota scene.
as for me. i couldn't care less about dota2 anymore. i'm bored of it. it's retarded. meta's retarded. 6.83 is meh.
everyone needs a break to clear themselves up.
and if it comes down to it. i rather support the actual players themselves.
to me the players are the most important. and treatment of players most important.
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Good Blog
I would love to see a Blog like this written by an oldschool gamer, a men whos in the pro scene since always
like puppey
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'Why are they insulting the players about things they don't know anything about with their arrogant looks?"
To be honest, this is the case in most sports. Casters have to have an opinion, and sometimes (often) it will be wrong, but thats what the analyst is there for. And even if they both get it wrong, they at least get you thinking about this or that item choice / build order / strategy etc...
That's what casting is about: entertaining, yes, but most importantly provoke a discussion, a debate. This is why play by play on its own is so god damn useless.
I can understand how from a player's point of view it can be frustrating to be criticized by a person that supposedly knows less about the game, but if that person wasn't there stating his opinion, most of us wouldn't even think about all these small details
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Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong.
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Wall of text inc
+ Show Spoiler +I think there's a lot we can learn from the LoL scene regarding our oversaturation, and I think Valve is partially responsible for the lack of a solution. As EE said, the reason we don't see T1 teams protesting smaller tournaments like Dotapit and arguably even DL is the fact that they need to prove themselves for TI. It still dominates the year, and players will do anything to attend.
In Riot's system (LCS?), the top teams only compete in their system, leaving tournament like MLG available for T2 teams to make a name for themselves. This would be analogous to Complexity's win turning them into a team that can try to get into the T1 scene. Instead, it's just another game lost in a massive ocean of other games.
I think part of the answer relies on how the rest of the year is all just a prelude to TI. Since there's already clear schedule conflicts (evident by all the LANs EE mentioned in the last 50 days and all of the withdrawals from tournaments by teams), Valve should select a few major tournament brands (ESL, MLG, Starladder, WPC, maybe one or two more) and say "these are the tournaments that factor into TI invitations", then the top teams won't have to burn out from playing in other leagues, making room for T2 teams to prove themselves in other arenas and giving certain leagues more gravity than others for the T1's.
The abundance of tickets and bundles makes me upset, but honestly it's not that big a deal if organizers ticket buyers aren't concerned with watching thousands of qualifier matches. Like EE said, viewers are more interested in cosmetics and goodies than they are watching 102314 games per tournament. The TI4 compendium made it pretty clear that hats are what we want most.
I get that Valve has been hands off and wants the scene to build itself up, but they're really underestimating how the drive to make TI is killing some of these teams, and how every small tournament is able to force the attention of top teams because of the desire to get invited. Until another tournament or organization can match the importance of TI, they need to narrow down the ocean of tournaments that can factor into an invite into a more manageable size
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On December 16 2014 22:42 govie wrote:
Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong.
Players publicly bitching about casters dates back to SC2 and players need to take it up with the caster that does it. I get so tired of the "This caster doesn't know the game as well as me, why is he saying things I don't like" on twitter/blogs and then expecting the players fan base to take the caster to task. Just go to the caster directly and stop being a passive aggressive baby.
The rest of the stuff I agree with. There are to many events right now and when players stop caring about specific matches because they play so many, its just a shitty product for everyone. Flying all over the globe is taxing and when its 4 people to a hotel room, thats pretty shitty.
But its up to the teams collectively to talk about it and maybe some of this sit out events. Still good to get the information out there so when C9 maybe decides to sit out the next big EU event, the fans are aware of the reasons.
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![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/dwX3N/7b886747f0.png)
rtz response
relevant shit i think
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
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On December 16 2014 22:42 govie wrote:
Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong.
I don't think anyone said that casters should have pro level knowledge. Imo the big practical problem for casters as well is that their schedules are often very chaotic. With taking care of your business, casting a lot of games, doing tournament admining, handling sponsors, whatever you may do, expecting them to do research on team matchups, drafts, study games thoroughly, and also play themselves quite a bit so that their intuitive understanding of the game is on a good level is a lot to ask. Especially when they are casting online games, but in LANs I feel more preparation would be more feasible. This doesn't mean that the level is satisfactory, but there are just some issues with the number of casters used and the number of games having to be casted (and other work to be done).
And another thing is that I don't think there really is an "analyst" in dota who is established and setting the bar high for others to follow. If we even talk about the research part which doesn't require you to have pro level understanding of the game itself, I don't think I've ever seen a dota cast where I've been really impressed by someone who knows what has happened between these two teams before, how exactly have they performed recently, how have their drafts been, etc. Sure, casters or panelists may at times talk about some of this, but pretty much always either vaguely, not accurately providing the full information, or just plain incorrectly.
Personally I feel that if you do preparation for your casts, give accurate information about the teams, you can often easily draw storylines for viewers to follow throughout the series. Whether your analysis during a game is excellent is almost secondary after you as a caster set the stage for viewers to enjoy the matchup. But for me if the caster screws up the beginning, no amount of reasonable game analysis is going to save the lost opportunity.
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I think EE's points are mostly good, especially I agree with his points to casters these days (feels like BTS casts everything and most of the time its not godz or LD who i personally like)
But in oversaturation I agree with Thorin way more, video+ Show Spoiler + , and is a problem that should solve itself with players declining to participate and players shouldn't feel bad about declining a tournament (even if a team wants exposure etc). Unfortunately I totally understand the opinion about how teams are afraid of not getting invited to The International, which valve should make more clear.
Anyways, nice read!
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First off this to me seems like a normal issue to have. The scene has a lot of potential and a lot of money pumped into it which means there is an unsustainable bubble building at the moment. The bubble will burst and then (hopefully) the scene will settle. Keep in mind that this is not a given when the SC2 bubble burst the scene collapsed to some extent.
To me the answer is tier 2 teams and the solution is the big name teams. EE points out there are too many tournaments , you can't prepare for them all and most are not exactly fantastically organized. Then stop going to them , pick the ones that fit your schedule and treat you well and attend those. The rest , well that's where the T2 teams come in , let them play on a big stage. It gives them exposure to the fanbase and it allows them to compete for good money which will promote stability. Yes that tournament won't have the highest viewing numbers and the prizepool will be smaller but that's ok it's fine to have tournaments which are smaller , at the moment you either have small regional leagues or tournaments with tier1 teams , where is our second division ? Starladder has made this attempt , at having 3 divisions with teams going up or down between them , and it would work , if it was only Starladder. This isn't a pretty solution in the sense that some tournaments will over stretch and fail but that's the bubble bursting and it's unavoidable. The answer has to be with the T1 organizations not just signing up to every tournament imaginable.
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On December 16 2014 22:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 22:42 govie wrote:
Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong. Players publicly bitching about casters dates back to SC2 and players need to take it up with the caster that does it. I get so tired of the "This caster doesn't know the game as well as me, why is he saying things I don't like" on twitter/blogs and then expecting the players fan base to take the caster to task. Just go to the caster directly and stop being a passive aggressive baby. The rest of the stuff I agree with. There are to many events right now and when players stop caring about specific matches because they play so many, its just a shitty product for everyone. Flying all over the globe is taxing and when its 4 people to a hotel room, thats pretty shitty. But its up to the teams collectively to talk about it and maybe some of this sit out events. Still good to get the information out there so when C9 maybe decides to sit out the next big EU event, the fans are aware of the reasons.
I think EE is more annoyed at the European casters who have flamed him and memed him pretty hard; moreso than the rest of the casting community. The whole in tears game was that match at ESL Frankfurt where they lost in an excruciating way, most times in sports, you would not see a commentator doing that in an incredibly tense game (imagine a commentator doing that at the World Cup or Champions League Finals).
The caster bash in general could be handled better but teams like GD studio prove that he's not wrong. Just compare Bruno at DH and Bruno at the summit 2.
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On December 16 2014 22:31 VelJa wrote:
Good Blog
I would love to see a Blog like this written by an oldschool gamer, a men whos in the pro scene since always
like puppey
Part of the way that Puppey keeps his public profile is to not post like this. I respect the guy and it's a different approach.
Puppey's whole players association and Secret's early dropping of tournaments is indicative of how he actually supports EE's view
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On December 16 2014 23:14 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 22:54 Plansix wrote:On December 16 2014 22:42 govie wrote:
Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong. Players publicly bitching about casters dates back to SC2 and players need to take it up with the caster that does it. I get so tired of the "This caster doesn't know the game as well as me, why is he saying things I don't like" on twitter/blogs and then expecting the players fan base to take the caster to task. Just go to the caster directly and stop being a passive aggressive baby. The rest of the stuff I agree with. There are to many events right now and when players stop caring about specific matches because they play so many, its just a shitty product for everyone. Flying all over the globe is taxing and when its 4 people to a hotel room, thats pretty shitty. But its up to the teams collectively to talk about it and maybe some of this sit out events. Still good to get the information out there so when C9 maybe decides to sit out the next big EU event, the fans are aware of the reasons. I think EE is more annoyed at the European casters who have flamed him and memed him pretty hard; moreso than the rest of the casting community. The whole in tears game was that match at ESL Frankfurt where they lost in an excruciating way, most times in sports, you would not see a commentator doing that in an incredibly tense game (imagine a commentator doing that at the World Cup or Champions League Finals). The caster bash in general could be handled better but teams like GD studio prove that he's not wrong. Just compare Bruno at DH and Bruno at the summit 2.
In sports you wont see a player passing by the commentators as he leaves the field. It's not really a useful comparison at all. If a player passed by a commentators desk and heard him talk about how he underperformed, or the coach heard how he should have done things differently, etc. they wouldnt react well at all.
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On December 16 2014 23:14 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 22:54 Plansix wrote:On December 16 2014 22:42 govie wrote:
Assuming that you have to have knowledge at prolevel to be able to cast i believe is wrong. Players publicly bitching about casters dates back to SC2 and players need to take it up with the caster that does it. I get so tired of the "This caster doesn't know the game as well as me, why is he saying things I don't like" on twitter/blogs and then expecting the players fan base to take the caster to task. Just go to the caster directly and stop being a passive aggressive baby. The rest of the stuff I agree with. There are to many events right now and when players stop caring about specific matches because they play so many, its just a shitty product for everyone. Flying all over the globe is taxing and when its 4 people to a hotel room, thats pretty shitty. But its up to the teams collectively to talk about it and maybe some of this sit out events. Still good to get the information out there so when C9 maybe decides to sit out the next big EU event, the fans are aware of the reasons. I think EE is more annoyed at the European casters who have flamed him and memed him pretty hard; moreso than the rest of the casting community. The whole in tears game was that match at ESL Frankfurt where they lost in an excruciating way, most times in sports, you would not see a commentator doing that in an incredibly tense game (imagine a commentator doing that at the World Cup or Champions League Finals). The caster bash in general could be handled better but teams like GD studio prove that he's not wrong. Just compare Bruno at DH and Bruno at the summit 2.
That's fine, I would just rather they call out specific events or incidents or handle it in private. I hate the vague, "casters said mean stuff or don't care". I get where he is coming from, but the casters first duty is to entertain the audience(clearly casting while hung over maybe isn't great). Its just my personal thing about "calling out" entire professions, rather than trying to deal with specific incidents. It just leads to everyone assuming it wasn't them and it was some other guy who performed some shit casting.
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It's sad a player has to come out and say all this. The tournaments in Dota 2 are so bad I've basically stopped watching. The scheduling, casting, everything is so lazy and awful, and they seem to have such a terrible attitude towards any kind of improvement.
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On December 16 2014 22:55 Targe wrote:yeah rtz's posts were really good edit: + Show Spoiler +
they are decent but thats about it.
newbee participated in more tournaments prior to ti4. they won the marstv tournament right after the qualifiers without dropping a single game. after that they got 3rd in WPC, lost to lgd in the esl one qualifier and to vg in the summit1 qualifier. you could say that they were kinda lucky and had more time to prepare. but you could also say that arteezys points i stupid and that vg participated in every tournament and still finished 2nd
edit: the shoutout for lumi in a post that flames casters is really funny. he casting was decent a long time ago
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maybe, but then you could say vici was clearly impacted by playing every tournament. they didn't have time to practice more than one thing and ended up one-dimensional when it counted.
I don't know if any BTS staff have said anything about the PC issues at their tournament, but somewhere along the way I got the impression (cobbled together from a few sources) that the PCs provided by cyberpower (or whoever it was) had really bad heat dissipation issues. If that is the case, I don't think it's really BTS's fault per se. Maybe they could have done better testing, but in essence that's still on cyberpower's shoulders for the bad design or bad heatsink/fan/paste installation.
It's still awful that it happened and it ruined the first day of the tournament.
Not having the practice PCs (like they apparently did last time) is less forgivable.
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On December 16 2014 23:41 theqat wrote:
maybe, but then you could say vici was clearly impacted by playing every tournament. they didn't have time to practice more than one thing and ended up one-dimensional when it counted.
newbee did not change the way that they played in a drastic way. they played the same style that they used at ti4 at the marstv tournament
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EE is right. I haven't watched any tournament aside from the summit because there are too many of tournaments atm.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jLfF8x8.png)
