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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:50 Fwizzz wrote: EE is right. I haven't watched any tournament aside from the summit because there are too many of tournaments atm. and whats wrong with that? did you watch every single onlinecup back in the day? | ||
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brown0317
China1 Post
Firstly, it is no doubt to complain the tournaments are too much, but what is professional player? As a professional player, it is an obligation to join a tournament and present the most wonderful matches for our fans, but what you care about are your stream and 7K MMR. Secondly, you said we only care about tournaments’ item sets, but how can you let us support you guys after being tortured with a 122 minutes’ match. Moreover, teams’ boring draft is also a factor to affect viewers’ passion and sometimes casters’ quality. In WEC, I was amazed by your wrath king and Warlock, In Starladder 10, your amazing chaos and Fata’s Bristleback destroyed VP and EG respectively, but after that, I never saw such amazing pick again, every time is Puck, TB, and Brewmaster. Anyway, I do really hope C9 can win this times’ i league, I will cheer for you at the scene. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
the question is, what will actually be done? E: casting has been shit as of late too. too much casual BS. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:23 SKC wrote: In sports you wont see a player passing by the commentators as he leaves the field. It's not really a useful comparison at all. If a player passed by a commentators desk and heard him talk about how he underperformed, or the coach heard how he should have done things differently, etc. they wouldnt react well at all. Except players call out commentators all the time. First Take (crappy american ESPN show) is literally a hotspot for pros to pop off and flame. If anything, ingame commentators for pro sports (not the after the game analysis) are extremely cognizant of this fact and rarely explicitly criticize players during the game/match | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
Pro players definitely lack a ton of professionalism and should probably become far better at picking what tournaments they play in, just look how common it is for a top tier team to drop out midway throughout any given tournament. Why even sign up there to begin with? I do agree that tournaments should stop with qualifiers for qualifiers and shit like that, just begin inviting top tier teams more and just seed them high into the tournament. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 16 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote: That's fine, I would just rather they call out specific events or incidents or handle it in private. I hate the vague, "casters said mean stuff or don't care". I get where he is coming from, but the casters first duty is to entertain the audience(clearly casting while hung over maybe isn't great). Its just my personal thing about "calling out" entire professions, rather than trying to deal with specific incidents. It just leads to everyone assuming it wasn't them and it was some other guy who performed some shit casting. if you check his twitter, he's been really good about responding to the BTS guys. It's actually a lot more reasonable than people have been making it out to be between them | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:02 bagels21 wrote: Except players call out commentators all the time. First Take (crappy american ESPN show) is literally a hotspot for pros to pop off and flame. If anything, American ingame commentators (not the after the game analysis) are extremely cognizant of this fact and rarely explicitly criticize players during the game/match Then you are talking about a fairly small portion of sports commentators. It's really common to see them being critical of players, teams or coaches. Plus what is the diference between being critical during or after the game? The subject wont watch it until later anyway. | ||
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Krishan.bif
Philippines491 Posts
OMG I said yes to too many tourneys to win the most amount of money, and I did cause all those second place finishes pay out didntuknowthat, but now what am I going to do because I'm burnt out of course it's all the orgs's fault someone HEEEELLLLPPPP MEEEEEEEEE Jesus ixmike is right, you babies are spoiled. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:06 Krishan.bif wrote: Rofl l2sayNO, jacky. OMG I said yes to too many tourneys to win the most amount of money, and I did cause all those second place finishes pay out didntuknowthat, but now what am I going to do because I'm burnt out of course it's all the orgs's fault someone HEEEELLLLPPPP MEEEEEEEEE Jesus ixmike is right, you babies are spoiled. Except, EG/VG/Secret/NB have all been doing this and have expressed the same view on tournaments they just haven't explicit said it. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:06 SKC wrote: Then you are talking about a fairly small portion of sports commentators. It's really common to see them being critical of players, teams or coaches. Plus what is the diference between being critical during or after the game? The subject wont watch it until later anyway. It's not about being critical though, it's more about the way in which they do it. As a C9 fan I might be biased, but commentators (especially the Euro ones IMO) have flamed and made fun of Envy/C9 a lot moreso than you would even see with other teams. I don't think Envy's annoyed at all about criticism. He admits that he likes seeing procasts, and that's where a lot of the critical casts come from. The difference is that the audience during the game will typically be a lot bigger than after the game or during some analysis show. A lot of time the subjects don't bother watching the smaller stuff, but you can bet they'll likely watch the in-game portion | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:17 bagels21 wrote: Except, EG/VG/Secret/NB have all been doing this and have expressed the same view on tournaments they just haven't explicit said it. and how does that matter? dont complain about having to play too many tournaments and star choosing the ones you want to attend -> the whole "issue" solves itself | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:20 TRAP[yoo] wrote: and how does that matter? dont complain about having to play too many tournaments and star choosing the ones you want to attend -> the whole "issue" solves itself It's more that a lot of the responses in this thread have been making fun of EE or attacking his personal character instead of focusing on the issues he brings up. A big problem when a lot of these teams drop out is that viewership is going to decline and it'll be harder to sustain t2 tournaments. We're already beginning to see this when Chinese teams don't attend these bigger lans. It's the actual question we have to ask since it's simple for teams to drop out. We don't yet know what the side effects may be though... | ||
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Krishan.bif
Philippines491 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:17 bagels21 wrote: Except, EG/VG/Secret/NB have all been doing this and have expressed the same view on tournaments they just haven't explicit said it. Oh I'm sorry. So four of the most successful teams are complaining that they're playing too many games and are reeeeeaallly uncomfortable about it? Holy shit guy, you are absolutely right! Let's just give them all the wins, god forbid that they learn the werewithal to actually decline a tourney when their mortal bodies start to fail them! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:20 TRAP[yoo] wrote: and how does that matter? dont complain about having to play too many tournaments and star choosing the ones you want to attend -> the whole "issue" solves itself I don't know, providing his fans with information and issues that the team is having seems valuable. That way when C9 decides to a future sit out an event, people will already know why. It also gives events a heads up when planning "maybe we should sent our world wide LAN in Easter Europe one weekend after the World Wide LAN in the Western USA. There is a chance teams might not attend due to reasons." | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:24 Krishan.bif wrote: Oh I'm sorry. So four of the most successful teams are complaining that they're playing too many games and are reeeeeaallly uncomfortable about it? Holy shit guy, you are absolutely right! Let's just give them all the wins, god forbid that they learn the werewithal to actually decline a tourney when their mortal bodies start to fail them! Alright, I'll respond to this even though it's obvious flamebait Take D2L for instance. It's previous 2013-14 iteration had the great Fnatic + Aui/Demon LAN run as well as a pretty good build up and good Chinese teams(VG and the last tourney of old LGD). It's current iteration lacks all 5 of these top teams (outside of contractually obligated EG) and you can see the huge viewership declines. On Reddit/LD/other dota forums, you rarely get any mention of the matches, even though Ayesee has improved and Tralf is a good co-caster. I think it's pretty indicative of what will happen to a lot of the t2 tourneys when these teams start sitting out | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:24 bagels21 wrote: It's more that a lot of the responses in this thread have been making fun of EE or attacking his personal character instead of focusing on the issues he brings up. A big problem when a lot of these teams drop out is that viewership is going to decline and it'll be harder to sustain t2 tournaments. We're already beginning to see this when Chinese teams don't attend these bigger lans. It's the actual question we have to ask since it's simple for teams to drop out. We don't yet know what the side effects may be though... dont you think the viewership is declining anyways? alot of people are already writing that they dont follow alot of tournaments because its too much (even with topteams participating) imho the problem is not the amount of tournaments but the amount of qualifiers and/or round robin games. sl, summit,d2l are mainly responsible for that (just take a look at the teamprofiles at gg.net). good teams deserve invites! edit: what sl could do is invite a different chinese team every season to see how they perform. you dont need vg or newbee at every lan final | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10685 Posts
There are too many tournaments with long qualifiers even for Topteams. And the organisation of about any Dota event till today has been a joke and i have no clue how these people are still in business. | ||
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Krishan.bif
Philippines491 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:28 bagels21 wrote: Alright, I'll respond to this even though it's obvious flamebait Take D2L for instance. It's previous 2013-14 iteration had the great Fnatic + Aui/Demon LAN run as well as a pretty good build up and good Chinese teams(VG and the last tourney of old LGD). It's current iteration lacks all 5 of these top teams (outside of contractually obligated EG) and you can see the huge viewership declines. On Reddit/LD/other dota forums, you rarely get any mention of the matches, even though Ayesee has improved and Tralf is a good co-caster. I think it's pretty indicative of what will happen to a lot of the t2 tourneys when these teams start sitting out ok let me compose myself for a second then and be less hostile. My issue with this blog is not the oversaturation of tourneys. It's his claim that it's oversaturated. There are more orgs this year, and the year before that. We can't stop that from happening, because the game is growing at a fast rate. People are going to start throwing money at dota because they've seen it work and profit. But instead of having foresight and common sense to decline invites with conflicting schedules with other tourneys, THEY DO THE OPPOSITE. And then act like the orgs pointed a gun to their heads to accept, so it's their fault they are burning out rofl do you see how absurd it is? So say no. Whatever happens to the tourneys they declined, happens. Maybe they lose money because of the lesser viewership. Or maybe some tier 2 team gets the chance to shine and pave the way to more viewers. But stop acting like spoiled children that had no say to this outcome, when in fact you had every oppurtunity to prevent it. | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On December 17 2014 00:41 TRAP[yoo] wrote: dont you think the viewership is declining anyways? alot of people are already writing that they dont follow alot of tournaments because its too much (even with topteams participating) imho the problem is not the amount of tournaments but the amount of qualifiers and/or round robin games. sl, summit,d2l are mainly responsible for that (just take a look at the teamprofiles at gg.net). good teams deserve invites! edit: what sl could do is invite a different chinese team every season to see how they perform. you dont need vg or newbee at every lan final I agree and EE mentions this qualifiers point. The problem remains that these tourneys are increasing qualifiers and so they're forced to withdraw and nobody wins | ||
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Talyk
United Kingdom4 Posts
I'm sorry but is anyone reminded of Starcraft 2 a few years back? I remember watching an episode of "State of the game" some time around the start of 2012/2013 (i can't remember which). For those of you who don't know, it was a video were casters and players got together and discussed the current state of things. Meta-game, tournaments, prize-pools, up and coming players etc etc. What I remember them commenting on was how in the previous year there were so many tournaments for Starcraft, it got messy and there were loads of upsets which, as EE mentioned, weren't really intended but seemed down to fatigue and just not caring. What ended up happening was fans not becoming as interested, views went down, prize pools went down and the number of tournaments plummeted hugely. Tournaments actually started CANCELLING their whole program because there were clashes and it just split the viewers up so much it wasn't worth it. I'm not saying DotA is going to dry up so suddenly like Starcraft did, DotA 2 has a much larger following and all the frills of the shop and items to go with it. But it's something to learn from for the next tournies. We're at a dangerous time in DotA (and eSports in general), a place between seriously being an absolutely huge and common thing amongst the general public and just being massive in the gaming / media world. I could sit here and rant about the same things everyone else is. Too many tournaments, viewers being split up, item sets taking over, formats and sloppyness all around. But i'd rather make some suggestions. Before I do. Consider this as TL;DR. The current patch is a huge issue, games are so ridiculously long at the moment, and often very painful to watch. Sure it's a problem. But tournaments need to be identifying that games take longer so technical issues are all the more important to identify. 1) Tournament organizers, teams captains, players, production. There needs to be more communication clearly, when are tournaments being held, is there a reasonable gap between them, can players make it between these events with a reasonable amount of practice / down time before being pushed in to the next games. What to do in the even of technical issues, can we host this event should those issues happen? Judging by your post, and a couple of others, I get the feeling there's too many people taking a backseat and just trying to let the money flow in, as well as nobody seeming to know who is dealing with a problem or why there is a problem in the first place. If there are going to be this many tournaments, then communicating between the two damn organisers so that your events don't land on the same day as 3 others, that's pretty damn important! 2) Quite obviously, there's money distribution issues. Tournament organisers need to have a long hard think about amalgamating two tournaments into one if there's doubt they can't do it on their own to a HIGH standard. What sounds better to you guys? Two tournaments with jet-lagged players hopping between the two competing for lower money, fewer views and not much in the sense of content besides the game and an item set. OR One larger tournament with a much higher prize pool, more players and teams, more staff on hand to help out with production and by pooling their resources, more organisation, planning and involvement in areas that need it. 3) Branch out on recruitment. I've got multiple friends who speak multiple languages and love dota. Hell i'm learning Japanese, French and Chinese, I'd love to hop on for a ride! I've got friends who are working in sound design / stage production / lighting who would be more than happy to work in the eSports industry. You don't need to recruit that one guy who just graduated from uni for a full time job, neither should you be making one professional translator run around the entire place trying to make sure messages are going too and from people, they are a translator, not an organiser. Balance these two things, if you've got one professional Steve Aoki, get in a graduate and they can work together and build a larger pool of available people. Set out to actually cover things like translation cause it's the interviews, players from different languages being able to talk through a translator to throw a bit of smack talk at each other (or respectful words if you will), and generally more involvement from and between players to a crowd / stream. It's these things that that add to tournaments without the pathetic addition of item sets as a selling point. 4) Take advantage of the other matchmaking systems. That recent game ( i think it was BTS?) were they had a bunch of people play random deathmatch, That was brilliant! The main content is great, items are cool (for those who like it) but add more stretch goals besides items. If the prize pools hitting 15K add a goal for a show match, or some 1v1's or the like. This shouldn't just be limited to after the Ti when we have one crazy thing happen and that's it. 5) It's not all the tournament organizers fault. Much of the community only seems to think about the items and has become very self-centered since this selling model came about. People seriously need to pull this betting greed out of their virtual back-gaps and get back to enjoying the damn games. Tournaments need to consider their current payment model, because all it's doing is generating a complete focus on money making and sales. 6) New casters. Okay so there's a few questionable casters around at the moment, but there needs to be work done from: The casters themselves: Decide what they are good at, are they a hype builder, an analyser, a mechanical explainer? Pick what you want to be doing and build that image. Once they have, do their homework. If you want to be a caster, show for it just like any job you want. Organizers: Start paring casters together properly. Having two hype casters is often going to result in little more than this splat of shouting. Put them together so they bounce of each other and fill in the other persons weakness. Also, where the hell are the stats-men? Chat trivia's are nice little touches, especially in this damn meta of standard 1 hour games. 7) Advertising? Is it just me or is a lot more needed (not rhetorical, i'm genuinely asking.) 8) Physical community involvement. Day9 does this a lot, invite people from the community to come and join in with more relaxed joking games. Set it as a stretch goal? Great! More smaller stretch goals that add to the experience a long the way make those prize pools worth increasing, not just for the sake of buying an item. Is everything I said professional? No. But I think it's clear, even if they aren't my changes, that some changes need to happen. | ||
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