EPTMy Perspective on ＤｏｔＡ ２ - Page 6
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molecu
347 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:57 lolnoty wrote: I respect you EE, but I wonder if your issue isn't with your own management on some of this. Also the bashing of casters is pretty unfair on a few levels. There's a lot of NA casters that bust their ass to improve. I don't know about the other scenes but I'm sure they give a shit too. It's rare that I agree with ixmike, but I think he's right that it's on the teams to sink or swim the tournaments through being selective rather than blame them for you being burned out after going hard on dota for months on end. The only big point I see out of all of this is the endless qualifiers and cold-war style 1-upping of longer seasons being an issue. I guess a players union might work for that. Good fucking luck having any kind of leverage in chinese tournaments with tournament prep standards. If western teams say they won't attend, they couldn't care less, and no chinese team is going to prioritize any kind of union when ACE and stricter contracts have them. im glad somebody finally actually did some caster bashing though, what dreamleague did with their english casts is just inexcusable and its influence seeped into the rest of the dota2 casting. while there are a lot of english casters who bust their ass to get better, there are a lot who don't. i find it hilarious that Lumi started this discussion since he was almost always the one that never bothered to keep up with BTS-covered league results on BTS... | ||
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iAxXTV
Romania8 Posts
I used to get excited for matches I actually watched a bunch of Dota and played a lot, I was actually pretty excited about the Red Bull Lan thing but I watched the stream and it was just LD being a fucking clown so I closed it. I recently watched a SC2 league qualifier(GSL) and I decided to watch a community stream instead of the official one, the caster actually did his homework on some of the players at the venue, during breaks he was actually talking about potential strategies he might use in specific matchups and certain timings that will leave his opponent vulnerable it was really entertaining to watch and I felt like I got some kind of insight before the game began. You know how usually when you play games like Dota or Starcraft you listen to music because you need some background noise... that what I feel the casters for Dota 2 are like these days same routine, they say the same shit every time it's so fucking repetitive. Now I don' t mean to talk shit about all the casters, I haven't watched many casts recently I've mainly watched BTS because they were everywhere so I guess this only applies to BTS, don't know about other casters but hey they pander to reddit and twitch chat so they're cool le memes xD. I don't even know where I'm going with this, I've just had this on my mind for a while and I needed a place to vent. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:57 lolnoty wrote: I respect you EE, but I wonder if your issue isn't with your own management on some of this. Also the bashing of casters is pretty unfair on a few levels. There's a lot of NA casters that bust their ass to improve. I don't know about the other scenes but I'm sure they give a shit too. It's rare that I agree with ixmike, but I think he's right that it's on the teams to sink or swim the tournaments through being selective rather than blame them for you being burned out after going hard on dota for months on end. Most viewers don't give a damn about effort behind wins or losses. A small fraction of dota2 players read forums or twitter. I saw EG lose to coL and I thought EG played like shit, and coL showed promise. This is all to say that it's your reputation on the line without any excuses that most will see/know about. If you can't keep up with the schedule, that's a player's union issue with management being short-sighted and not the tournaments, yet I didn't see a paragraph highlighting that problem. The only big point I see out of all of this is the endless qualifiers and cold-war style 1-upping of longer seasons being an issue. I guess a players union might work for that. Good fucking luck having any kind of leverage in chinese tournaments with tournament prep standards. If western teams say they won't attend, they couldn't care less, and no chinese team is going to prioritize any kind of union when ACE and stricter contracts have them. He highlighted some of the reasons why it is difficult to decide to just drop out of events. And imo even if top teams drop out of some events, the fact still remains that tournament structures are such that some matchups happen all the time and there rarely are cases where top teams meet in a final for example and then the speculation and hype intensifies until the next time they meet in a high stakes match. Instead it's diluted with 5 random online or group stage games in between. I think the caster point was presented a bit harshly. I don't think anyone can deny that BTS people or whoever don't work hard when they cast for god knows how long every day. But the problem is that with the number of events (and possible other duties), few casters showcase constant interest towards researching pro teams, how certain teams match up against each other, how the drafting stage works in a matchup, how the games have been. It's not only about working hard though, it's simply impossible to prepare properly if you have to cast almost every day for god knows how many games. And this preparation is in addition to being expected to play yourself at a pretty high level so that you can give decent analysis during a game after you've first represented the context for the game and the possible storylines well. But when I watch Summit LAN finals, and there is noone on the couch who can present accurately the history between EG and c9 or the history between c9 and VG, it becomes annoying for me and doesn't give the impression that the people on the stream care about representing the game at hand well to the viewers. And the GD Studio is another matter entirely. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
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pengoo
2 Posts
On December 16 2014 13:50 EternaLEnVy wrote: But we deal with all this shit because 1) we don’t want a real job and 2) because we want to fucking win. Start treating it like a real job? That's gotta happen if you want the scene to improve. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
All jobs have their downsides to it... This is no different from any office job with issues of its own. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:28 trinxified wrote: Pro-players like EE need to appreciate that what they do is actually very rare and they should cherish it. It's an opportunity that a lot of people would want and even trade places with. All jobs have their downsides to it... This is no different from any office job with issues of its own. There being issues doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to address them. In this case it seems that there are quite a lot of players who are not satisfied with a bunch of things in the scene, whether it is tournament structures, scheduling, Valve's non transparent TI invite policies, how LANs are organized, how are players are treated there etc. Someone may have to publicly talk about it so that it gets attention and either Valve will look to take a more active role in some of this, or maybe it will push tournament organizers to set the bar higher. Sometimes giving your feedback through private channels may be better, but also in some cases people only look to act when there is public pressure on them to do better. If it's done entirely privately it's easier to just dismiss it and the general audience won't know a thing. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
The casters aren't there for him. The casters are there for the viewers. The viewers dictate what is good casting and bad casting. As much as he feel the commentary is low level and is annoyed when casters joke about players losing, if thats what the viewers want to hear, then thats what the casters should be doing. If 50k watch a caster talk about his poop while 5k watch another caster doing high level analysis, the first caster is doing the better job. Also, he's probably as excited to play a random qualifier game as Im excited to go to the office every morning. Welcome to the world of working. He says he doesn't want a "real" job, but real or not, his current feelings towards dota2 is probably very well in line with most of us random workers feelings towards our jobs. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:35 spudde123 wrote: There being issues doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to address them. In this case it seems that there are quite a lot of players who are not satisfied with a bunch of things in the scene, whether it is tournament structures, scheduling, Valve's non transparent TI invite policies, how LANs are organized, how are players are treated there etc. Someone may have to publicly talk about it so that it gets attention and either Valve will look to take a more active role in some of this, or maybe it will push tournament organizers to set the bar higher. Sometimes giving your feedback through private channels may be better, but also in some cases people only look to act when there is public pressure on them to do better. If it's done entirely privately it's easier to just dismiss it and the general audience won't know a thing. Well what I meant is that pro-players need to accept that there are downsides to what they're doing. Whatever he says here could be very well translated to issues that happen at a "normal or real" workplace. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
I still feel like it's silly to think you HAVE to play in every single fucking tournament that comes along. Sorry, but that's shitty career planning and team management. This is a multi-layered issue you're talking about, and I feel like I need to keep bringing up management as a large part of that problem that wasn't highlighted. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
He had me at: "We don't want a real job." | ||
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R3IGN
Pakistan4 Posts
I agree with EE. Honestly, i dont buy tickets anymore because there's no more real hype. Rather just buy the international ticket every year. And im from Pakistan and we dont have the luxury of top class internet speeds here, me and my friends watch tournaments inside dotaTV so the issues that EE raised are compounded even more. Hopefully the pros will band together and do something about this. Like actually choosing their tournaments and giving it their all. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:48 Laurens wrote: Hilarious read, and the comments of people agreeing are even better. He had me at: "We don't want a real job." Not sure how one manages to take out one random ass comment and turn it into something negative. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
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Nolfster
Slovakia109 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:48 Laurens wrote: Hilarious read, and the comments of people agreeing are even better. He had me at: "We don't want a real job." Because playing games is still considered by majority of population as something special. When they talk about "real jobs" they talk about doctor, accountants, cashiers, assistants, etc. When EE says he does not want real job, it means he does not want to have a regular mainestream job, not that he does not appreciate he can play dota2 for money. | ||
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Nolfster
Slovakia109 Posts
The International is the only important thing for players. They don't know what specific requirements there are to get invite for The International. So, no surprise the scene is a chaos when the only thing that matters does not have proper rules. Personally, I don't give a crap about 99% of matches played in last 6 months. I have been watching dota tournaments since 2005 and currently it is the lowest point of excitement from watching them. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
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ShootAnonymous
1948 Posts
RE: Caster professionalism One aspect of note is that in contrast to WCS, LCS, OGN and so on, majority of casting in English DotA2 tournaments is outsourced. I.E. SL get BTS to cover the english broadcast. These outsourced casters will naturally and understandably, be less invested in the quality of their cast. Their livelihoods aren't directly tied to their casting performance, whereas inhouse casters do have to work hard for their salaries and to not-get-fired. Also, I would imagine for outsourced casting that there's nobody to metaphorically breathe down their necks. Sometimes I even wonder if tournament organizers even bother to tune in and check out the non-main-language casting to see what the level's like. But that's neither here nor there. I'm of the mind that the onus is on tournament organizers to push for a level of professionalism. I mean, nobody would think of (excessively) goofing off at TI/Worlds, because the event culture there dictates a certain level of restrain and effort. Perhaps other tournaments could look to cultivate and push for something similar. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:59 R3IGN wrote: What Dota2 needs is a regulatory authority that decides what tournaments will be held next season and for what level. Organizers can then bid and present their plans and the authority can simply chose the best one. That way you will actually have worthwhile and decent tournaments in a season and the number can be kept down too. Plus a regulatory authority can also draft rules like punishments for players involved in 322 incidents and such. I agree with EE. Honestly, i dont buy tickets anymore because there's no more real hype. Rather just buy the international ticket every year. And im from Pakistan and we dont have the luxury of top class internet speeds here, me and my friends watch tournaments inside dotaTV so the issues that EE raised are compounded even more. Hopefully the pros will band together and do something about this. Like actually choosing their tournaments and giving it their all. The amount of headache, planning, impossible cooperation, and confusing rules needed to create a regulatory body to dictate what happens is monumental. Compare that to teams just not playing in tournaments and making the reasons they're not entering well known, and getting the same result. Let the tournaments sink or swim using your own presence (literally what makes money through views) as leverage. | ||
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