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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
Honestly, I buy tickets to support the scene but the bundle is a nice thing to get when you have no fucking clue when a game will actually be played. A lot of the points have merit while some are just because of the way the DOTA scene is right now. Some things can be easily fixed. Others take people working together but that probably won't happen because well esports. | ||
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DE3me
Germany263 Posts
On December 16 2014 13:50 EternaLEnVy wrote: Too many games, too low quality. I think all you wrote comes down to one thing: there are too many games. Too many games to care for players/casters/viewers alike... Too many games for the quality to be top notch (jetlag/burnout etc.)... ..., but you have one misconception in your thoughts! YOU CAN CHANGE THIS or more precise the players in general have the biggest power to change things. The problem is, as you said yourself in your writing, players and teams are the most important for the tournaments. The teams that play bring in the crowd, if Secret plays against EG people will be watching and it doesn't matter for the viewers if the play just for pride or 100000$! That means that YOU (the players) have the might! If you dislike the organization of a tournament, don't play in it. If you didn't get paid or proper hotel rooms, you don't play in that same tournament next time if you think they didn't change. The thing is, if bad tournaments don't get the big teams to buff up their line up they won't get the exposure to keep things up and may change or vanish. Obviously this is not only on the players, because viewers themself can do the same (just don't watch tournaments were you know shit is going on!), but viewers are way more diverse and can't be organized in any way, so the easiest way to change how tournaments do stuff lies at the players. You are the ones in the best position. Why do you think the chinese ACE exists, it is to organize the players and safeguard them against shitty tournaments abusive sponsors and the kind (not that everything they do is good, but the principle is!). As i said before: We (as a community) are now big enough to cut some slag. We don't need more tournaments. We should cut out the rotten parts of the apple that is professional DotA 2 instead of getting bigger and bigger without any quality control. Quality control lies in the hands of the organizations, players and viewers, but the one with the biggest impact on the cutting knife are the players. You just have to understand it and use your power! | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
I really like EE's honesty. He doesn't come off extremely eloquently, but he recognizes that. He raises good points, which are very important, and they are point I agree with. There needs to be some central agency that protects the players, the integrity of the game, etc, etc. Sadly, with video games, the only agencies that are able to do that is the game developer, or the government itself. In terms of BW, Kespa was a government organization, and what they said went, went. Blizzard is doing something similar in SC2, and while it's success is questionable, it did bring stability into the scene. At the end of the day, over-saturation is a thing. Many people don't acknowledge it, but I've been in esports since 2007, and I've seen first hand what impacts having too many tournaments does. It happened in SC2, and while it's not identical to what's happening in Dota for a multitude of reasons, we can see it having detrimental effects. Every esport thus far has been doomed to fail if it were not for a government agency or game developer, or a body that is given power by Valve for example... I hope to see that happen in the near future. | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
i agree with the caster especially, 'analysts' are actually awful these days. I'm not sure if it's burnout on their part or just because they can not give a fuck and still get paid and viewership, maybe a bit of both. as for the oversaturation of tournaments, I think it might be better for tournaments run their events less. One one hand, I kind of like having something to watch almost whenever I want, but on the other hand it also causes me to not care about watching it or reviewing the vods because, like ee says, there's going to be plenty more chances to watch a particular team in the near future. I've noticed there's a lot less hype for tournaments as well, and I guess part of that is viewer fatigue. there used to be LR threads that got bumped like 10 times a minute during games between lesser known teams, but now many of them outside of big name matchups stagnate. and they're not even small tournaments, d2l in particular is literally antihype for the amount of teams participating and the amount of time it's been running. obviously that may be in part due to c9 and secret dropping, but I think my point still stands. | ||
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Olex
United States135 Posts
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ixmike88
United States67 Posts
the idea of players asking for less tournaments blows my god damn mind | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 15:51 andyrau wrote: eesama literally saving Ｄ Ｏ Ｔ Ａ ２ i agree with the caster especially, 'analysts' are actually awful these days. I'm not sure if it's burnout on their part or just because they can not give a fuck and still get paid and viewership, maybe a bit of both. as for the oversaturation of tournaments, I think it might be better for tournaments run their events less. One one hand, I kind of like having something to watch almost whenever I want, but on the other hand it also causes me to not care about watching it or reviewing the vods because, like ee says, there's going to be plenty more chances to watch a particular team in the near future. I've noticed there's a lot less hype for tournaments as well, and I guess part of that is viewer fatigue. there used to be LR threads that got bumped like 10 times a minute during games between lesser known teams, but now many of them outside of big name matchups stagnate. and they're not even small tournaments, d2l in particular is literally antihype for the amount of teams participating and the amount of time it's been running. obviously that may be in part due to c9 and secret dropping, but I think my point still stands. Running less tournaments isn't really an option. Why would they? These companies want to make money... This is done by running tournaments. It's like me telling you to only work 10 hours a week so we lower unemployment. Maybe in some ideal case, but there is no invisible hand to make that happen. If a tournament can be profitable, it will occur. Thus, many organizers get on board, and churn out as many tournaments as possible while being in the green as possible. Either someone with authority tells the organizers they cannot host this many tournaments (especially when not up to par).... or Some player association forms between many top teams, and whether the teams will play in a certain tournament will have to go to that association. And thus shitty tournaments wont get any top names, and will completely flop. But again, when people are looking at their interests, that is difficult to orchestrate. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 15:55 Liquid`ixmike88 wrote: the solution to having a lot of tournaments isnt to ask them to host less its to choose which ones u want to play better the idea of players asking for less tournaments blows my god damn mind Ixmike, I think most players are fine with many tournaments... More money in your guys' pockets. But EE is looking at it also from the healthiness of the game perspective, and sees the issues that arise. He's discussing the viewing and casting experience more so than the playing experience... Which I'd agree, quality wise has been lackluster recently. Tournament conditions are not good according to EternalEnvy, and honestly, the viewing experience has been such shit recently. Every tournament having technical difficulties and delays, computers having to be switched out on a daily basis, etc, etc. And of course, when every week I have 50 games of Secret vs Navi quality, I couldn't even bother to waste a minute watching EG vs VP or something. What has been going on has been hurting the esport scene as a whole. | ||
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So5low
Bulgaria14 Posts
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twobad
3 Posts
it created a huge problem not only for the pros but also for casters and the community as well. Why? It's simply there is too many games, players can't get time to rest or do whatever they want between tournaments, they always have to get a flight or prepare to the next tournament. Casters can't follow the number of matches is very tiring ( they literally have to talk 40-50 minutes per match, maybe more). Tickets and Tournaments There is too many tournaments, Okay nothing new. So how I convince the players to buy my tournament ticket? with dota items, and that is a HUGE problem. Because buying tickets you rise the tournament price pool, so players can't rely on the price pool, because no one knows how much it will be, maybe one hundred thousand maybe six hundred thousand, example the d2l had a huge price pool but the last one had a lower price pool. or think about TI, TI 3 had 2,6 million dollars price pool, the TI 4 had about 10 million, no one knows if TI5 will have 10 millions or 2 millions because it all depends in community, and nowadays the community don't really care about supporting the teams, we all want itens and that's it. Volvo is guilty too, they accept all tournaments too have a bundle with the tickets, so they get more $$. How I think it could be fixed I think that it could be fixed by changing how tournaments are. Following the soccer tournaments with "Divisions" the number of games would be less for each team, and will be not necessary the high number of qualifiers. Dividing the teams in 2 sections Tier 1 teams go to 1° division and Tier 2 teams go to 2° division. How it works in tournaments the 1° division teams fight each other to the first place and reclaim the prize pool. The bottom teams of the tournament in 1° division will drop to the 2°division. The teams in 2° division fight each other to climb to the first division so every edition will have at least 2 new teams from the 2° division. That way other tournament doesn't have to have their own qualifier because they can use the divisions and just invite the teams. And the pro players can use it, to know how much they have to practice and if they will be or not invited to a tournament. Casting and Community The casting always was a problem with DotA. Our casters doesnt really understanding the mechanics and strategies ( I'm not a pro or a 6k MMR player) but I can realize it. And because the number of matches we have they dont have to be better than the other, because it's only him casting the match. That way they get too much "casual" and the cast that already was "meh" get even worst. Fine, some casual cast it's fine ( I laugh my ass out when n0tail casted the game during the summit 1 and 2 flamming RTZ "so smart"). But the casters now are too cocky and it's not fun to watch a game anymore. Back in the days was funny and cool to watch EG vs C9 or Na'Vi vs Empire but it is getting too often and the match quality isn't the same. I hope you guys can reply this post with your opinion ( don't flame Kappa) EE I really apreciated your post and I hope you read this and say what you think <3 | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
On December 16 2014 15:56 FiWiFaKi wrote: Running less tournaments isn't really an option. Why would they? These companies want to make money... This is done by running tournaments. It's like me telling you to only work 10 hours a week so we lower unemployment. Maybe in some ideal case, but there is no invisible hand to make that happen. If a tournament can be profitable, it will occur. Thus, many organizers get on board, and churn out as many tournaments as possible while being in the green as possible. Either someone with authority tells the organizers they cannot host this many tournaments (especially when not up to par).... or Some player association forms between many top teams, and whether the teams will play in a certain tournament will have to go to that association. And thus shitty tournaments wont get any top names, and will completely flop. But again, when people are looking at their interests, that is difficult to orchestrate. are you really saying it'd be more profitable for the nfl to run multiple super bowls per year or multiple wimbledons a year or even annual wc just because they're profitable? yes i know they're not analagous but you completely missed the point. it's not about tournament organizers running it for profit, we're talking about quality of your tournament and how well it's represented, because atm it's quantity over quality. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:02 andyrau wrote: are you really saying it'd be more profitable for the nfl to run multiple super bowls per year or multiple wimbledons a year or even annual wc just because they're profitable? yes i know they're not analagous but you completely missed the point. it's not about tournament organizers running it for profit, we're talking about quality of your tournament and how well it's represented, because atm it's quantity over quality. Honestly, yes. If you run two superbowls per year, you probably will make more money this year and the next year. But the problem arises in that 5 years down the road, popularity and interest will drop and you'll be making less money. The thing is, esport organizers have this mentality of as much as possible while it's still profitable, leave the game once it dries up, and move on to the next one. The NFL doesn't have another game to just go jump on, but ESL and MLG do, they have many and many in fact. | ||
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malcram
2752 Posts
I did read the OP. No need to be so hostile. I practically said what ixmike said, albeit with a little more detail, and your difference in reply is amusing to say the least. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:05 FiWiFaKi wrote: Honestly, yes. If you run two superbowls per year, you probably will make more money this year and the next year. But the problem arises in that 5 years down the road, popularity and interest will drop and you'll be making less money. The thing is, esport organizers have this mentality of as much as possible while it's still profitable, leave the game once it dries up, and move on to the next one. The NFL doesn't have another game to just go jump on, but ESL and MLG do, they have many and many in fact. Also another thing of note, for your example of the Superbowl... If possible, another organization would run in, and run a huge american football tournament, but this doesn't happen. Why? Because the teams and players are bound by contracts to only play in this league. Right now, no organization is large enough to say "Hey, to play in our league, you must sign an exclusivity agreement to play in these leagues only". Thus it's really a free for all, and each different organizer is trying to milk what we have right now as much as possible, with no consideration of where we will be at in 2 or 3 years. | ||
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RaveN95
Singapore1 Post
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7040 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:08 FiWiFaKi wrote: Also another thing of note, for your example of the Superbowl... If possible, another organization would run in, and run a huge american football tournament, but this doesn't happen. Why? Because the teams and players are bound by contracts to only play in this league. Right now, no organization is large enough to say "Hey, to play in our league, you must sign an exclusivity agreement to play in these leagues only". Thus it's really a free for all, and each different organizer is trying to milk what we have right now as much as possible, with no consideration of where we will be at in 2 or 3 years. Well, the only organization that could do it is Valve, but they've made it clear repeatedly that them taking over the scene a-la LCS is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:12 RaveN95 wrote: I think there is a need to organize tournaments for the lower tier teams AND only them can participate. Otherwise, all the pro teams joins in no way they can ever earn themselves a title. Champions of these tournaments will than get to join a tournament of larger scale? How do you organize that? Who would organize a tournament with only Tier 2/3 teams? There will be few viewers, where will these players feed to? You need a regulating body to oversee everything if you want to make something like that work any way you slice it. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 16 2014 15:39 malcram wrote: Look at Team Secret. I think they are looking good for a TI direct invite at the moment. And they've only participated in 3 major events. ESL, SL X and TS2. They've shown good games and of course have "star power". But my point stands. They don't have to be taking part in D2L or Join Dota League or all the other 20 tournaments going on. Just show up at the right ones and smash face. As EE wrote, they originally were going to WEC and only didn't go because of the terrible arrangements organizers had made. Then there was WCA, and Kuroky for example publicly talked on twitter wishing that there was a qualifier for it. So they likely wanted to attend that as well. Then they played at ESL and at SL. Later they failed to qualify to Dreamleague, so again they wanted to participate, and finally they played the Summit. And this is while playing DC Captains Draft and Dotapit online. The only tournaments they have really opted not to play in have been (as far as I can tell) D2CL and D2L. Even Secret, who as EE said are probably pretty safe in assuming they would make it to LANs and pretty deep there, have either played or would have liked to play almost everything. It's easier now in the spring season for teams like Secret, EG or c9 not to play all events, because they have shown that they are worthy of an invite, and probably are also confident that they will make it pretty deep in any event they attend. But understandably the situation is not the same right after roster changes when nothing is guaranteed. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:13 tehh4ck3r wrote: Well, the only organization that could do it is Valve, but they've made it clear repeatedly that them taking over the scene a-la LCS is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. I think if they truly see their game suffering, they would do something. They haven't had to do anything yet, as their game has been thriving - but their hand might be forced. I don't think the LCS style is necessarily best, but it has some good things to learn from as well. It really unifies the viewer base, runs in a very robust structure, and people don't get sick of it. WCS and SC2 is another way it can be approached, Blizzard is the leader of the scene, but tournament organizers have freedoms so long as they adhere to Blizzard policy. And WCS points loosely hold the scene together and semi-centralized. Valve doesn't have to take either of these two routes, but can learn from what has happened in the past, to make a model that works for Dota. A free market with no overseeing body doesn't work in the economy, and it wont work in Dota either. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
What shocked me most is how organizers are bad. TS2 was enjoyable, but yeah it was badly organized (the summit 1 too). But it's on the players too, like you said you installed skype and had dreamhack be ddosed and you're directly responsible of a multiple hours delay. Don't act like a kid if you don't want organizers treat you like a kid. That being said, I still think that your points are valid ; when Puppey (and other pros) is casting a game for instance it adds so much value to the game, pro casts in the summit showed that. It's like having tastosis cast a sc2 game, even if the game is bad it's still an enjoyable moment. | ||
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