On December 16 2014 14:24 xiituzi wrote: Show nested quote +
On December 16 2014 14:21 TanGeng wrote:
It's true English casts are generally worse. The Chinese casts are far more analytical, even apples to apples. As for the numbness of the professional scene, that's professional sports. It's supposed to be a grind and like a job.
The treatment by tournaments is bad though. They all are about cutting costs and exploiting willing individuals.
#facepalm I can't even force myself to agree.
That was a great blog.
I wonder what a future, potentially more stable version of Dota 2 would look like?
It makes me think about how I like AFL (Australian Football) but I don't support a team. I love watching the great games be played well, but I have no investment in a specific team or story. There's nothing I can engage with story-wise in a culture which involves binge-drinking, racism and the like yet I respect the skill and effort which players display at the peak of the sport.
In Dota it's completely different. I love watching great games, but I also support Na'vi. Even when they play 'badly' - in a slump. Even now I'm checking DotaCinema daily to see the brackets be announced for the XMG 2.0. I want to see them win but there are so many games happening that sometimes I'll find a game which they played yesterday or a week ago and think 'when did this happen and how was it important'.
Too many games, that's for sure. One could keep track of them all but not with a full time job and obsession. I don't have the time for that or the wherewithal. I hate finding out that my favourite team played a game that I never heard was happening. It could certainly be easier to keep track of than it is and the freaking LiquidDota calender does a better job of hyping up games than an oversaturated scene does.
Cheers EE - Your rad post makes me want to follow your team more ^^
Nice blog. Just wanna play some Doto.
Am I weird if I think an overbearing organization like kespa would be good for dota?
United States18916 Posts
On December 16 2014 14:24 Comeh wrote: Show nested quote +
On December 16 2014 14:21 TanGeng wrote:
It's supposed to be a grind and like a job.
Is it though?
On game day, most athletes give it their all (well, maybe not in baseball).
Basketball & Baseball & Hockey
As well as swimming, running, cycling, and rowing.
There are some days that are just down. And you grind through it with the idea of peaking at the right time.
I think that this year the Pro scene in dota "increased too much too fast" thousands and thousands tournaments happened and the community couldn't follow. The amount of tickets in store is too high, so the only way to make the players buy and support the tournament was adding bundles with it. At first it was "okay", but the numbers of tournaments kept growing.
it created a huge problem not only for the pros but also for casters and the community as well. Why?
It's simply there is too many games, players can't get time to rest or do whatever they want between tournaments, they always have to get a flight or prepare to the next tournament. Casters can't follow the number of matches is very tiring ( they literally have to talk 40-50 minutes per match, maybe more).
Tickets and Tournaments
There is too many tournaments, Okay nothing new. So how I convince the players to buy my tournament ticket? with dota items, and that is a HUGE problem. Because buying tickets you rise the tournament price pool, so players can't rely on the price pool, because no one knows how much it will be, maybe one hundred thousand maybe six hundred thousand, example the d2l had a huge price pool but the last one had a lower price pool. or think about TI, TI 3 had 2,6 million dollars price pool, the TI 4 had about 10 million, no one knows if TI5 will have 10 millions or 2 millions because it all depends in community, and nowadays the community don't really care about supporting the teams, we all want itens and that's it. Volvo is guilty too, they accept all tournaments too have a bundle with the tickets, so they get more $$.
How I think it could be fixed
I think that it could be fixed by changing how tournaments are. Following the soccer tournaments with "Divisions" the number of games would be less for each team, and will be not necessary the high number of qualifiers.
Dividing the teams in 2 sections
Tier 1 teams go to 1° division and Tier 2 teams go to 2° division.
How it works
in tournaments the 1° division teams fight each other to the first place and reclaim the prize pool. The bottom teams of the tournament in 1° division will drop to the 2°division.
The teams in 2° division fight each other to climb to the first division so every edition will have at least 2 new teams from the 2° division.
That way other tournament doesn't have to have their own qualifier because they can use the divisions and just invite the teams. And the pro players can use it, to know how much they have to practice and if they will be or not invited to a tournament.
Casting and Community
The casting always was a problem with DotA. Our casters doesnt really understanding the mechanics and strategies ( I'm not a pro or a 6k MMR player) but I can realize it. And because the number of matches we have they dont have to be better than the other, because it's only him casting the match. That way they get too much "casual" and the cast that already was "meh" get even worst. Fine, some casual cast it's fine ( I laugh my ass out when n0tail casted the game during the summit 1 and 2 flamming RTZ "so smart"). But the casters now are too cocky and it's not fun to watch a game anymore.
Back in the days was funny and cool to watch EG vs C9 or Na'Vi vs Empire but it is getting too often and the match quality isn't the same.
I hope you guys can reply this post with your opinion ( don't flame Kappa) EE I really apreciated your post and I hope you read this and say what you think <3
Jacky Mao is just a Dota 2 boy T_T
United States10624 Posts
Well I found this blog was just made while a girl is reading it like slowly on SingSing's stream.
I made a post 2 weeks ago commenting on the Tobi Wan post about tournaments and I think I will just repost it (hidden) below
+ Show Spoiler +
Firstly, if I were a pro player in all of this I would be asking myself where are the breaks in between? Yes maybe they do like this game so much and play it 24/7 as their dream job, but ANYONE who experiences too much of something will always need a break or you will get burnt out on it, and this game is one that will really get to you (speaking strictly from solo queue pub experience). Imagine now also not just worrying about the online portion (scrims plus official games plus your own practice for probably a good majority of your day), but the offline portion (Travel, PR meeting fans, the tournament itself)... really don't know how these people have the energy physically and mentally for all of this day in and day out
Secondly, look at a tournament like D2L. If I remember they announced it while there were already a bunch of tournaments going on and upcoming. D2L looked decent with EVERY top and mid tier team invited, but we all know the top teams are the ones that draw in the big numbers. Low and behold, Secret and C9 both arguably the top 5 western teams atm withdrew due to scheduling conflicts which I think really hurt this tournament badly. Meanwhile, at the end of Starladder X, Starladder XI gets announced and is immediately starting and I'm like thinking "holy shit maybe you want to chill out for a month or 2, or even after New Years before starting this?". I don't know, I just think as a spectator while it was enjoyable the last few months with 6.82 and all, it's become to the point where especially after DH this weekend I've seen enough for a while, and again I can't imagine the players not feeling burnt out as well
Funny how a lot of what I wrote are echoed in vast detail by EE... I mean even in real sports there's an off season or breaks in between. It seems like DOTA 2 (and a lot of e-sports) just don't know how to take it easy and at the end of the day players and to a lesser extent casters pay the price for it
I agree with the overall point of your statement Envy: The over saturation of Dota 2 tournaments as a whole is hurting the scene and we are seeing a trickle down effect of that take place.
United States2927 Posts
I enjoy playing dota as much as I did when the beta came out. Watching Dota? I'd have to say there was certainly a dip after the beginning of 2014. Casting dota is still hella fun though. I don't fully agree with the thoughts on casters, but casters that have much less games to cast will certainly put more time/effort/research into those casts.
On December 16 2014 14:15 Talesavo wrote:
So where does dumping water unto a caster mid-cast fall in this spectrum of professionalism?
Thinking back at this incident I have to agree, Envy with the way you sometimes behave you're not doing yourself any favors trying to discuss on how to be better professionals when it's coming from you. You could lead an example of acting a little more professional while still being who you are.
I agree with all your points otherwise.
United States20269 Posts
On December 16 2014 14:28 Comeh wrote:
Am I weird if I think an overbearing organization like kespa would be good for dota?
no. technically kespa is supposed to be a players organization, but is much stronger than that compared to real sports which have players, teams, and then the leagues.
dota2 is about where it is where a player organization steps in and decides the structure of the beast. china has ACE, but they are always half-assed
United States16 Posts
On December 16 2014 14:21 TanGeng wrote:As for the numbness of the professional scene, that's professional sports. It's supposed to be a grind and like a job.
I think that's a very holistic view of player's view of the game, and I don't believe that's true for everyone.
Too many endless qualifiers, qualifiers for qualifiers, etc. Some people are really against invites for whatever reason though.
United States6795 Posts
I never really noticed it much but it really made more sense when I read through what u wrote. There's really too much saturation that I just couldn't care about a lot of it anymore as a viewer. I remember back in the day I would watch like D2L season 3 (or was it 2? - nth era), and I would stay up all night to watch the games or download every replay of that tournament and watch it just to watch my fav teams/players duking it out while learning more and more about the game.
But now, there's just not much time for me to do so any more. I haven't even managed to watch the C9 vs EG game at The Summit 2 yet even though people say it was a good series. Just as you said, there will be other tournaments soon enough where they would meet each other again so maybe that's why I didn't bother to really watch it pronto. I dunno , but something really needs to change indeed.
About the casters part, maybe you could put in examples of casted games that showed they don't really "care". I mean, I can see what your trying to say but pointing it out in general seemed to have infuriate most of the casters around.
I totally get what you're saying....
The stress from dealing with your own state of mind/play and your team can be insane
people dont always recognize the amount of concentration and effort it takes to play consistently at a high level. I also am totally with you on your point about casters and how tournaments are attempting to sell their tickets, not the tournament itself (and the teams!). The motivation thing is tough.
Good luck and go c9!
This post makes you look extremely whiny and unprofessional.
Grow up, EE.
I don't think EE's personal mistakes are relevant to what he is writing, the points should be evaluated on their own and not disregard them because the person writing them isn't "professional" himself or whatever.
I fully agree with a lot of what was written. I've written on the oversaturation topic in some other thread so I won't go back to it here, but specifically the tournament stories jumped out to me. The level of organization and planning in many events seems to be pretty embarrassing.
The caster thing seems to be gathering some debate over Twitter, but personally I agree with it fully. In my opinion the level of research and preparation casters showcase is extremely low in dota. There would be a lot of interesting things to talk about in how teams draft against each other, bring up the context of their previous games, how they play against each other, what each team is concentrating on, what actually happens in a game and why it happens. A lot of it may not be easy to talk about, but I often don't really even see the effort. Perhaps it is because they are very busy casting a lot of games and doing other work, perhaps it is because the games don't really matter, or perhaps it is because noone is setting the bar high enough for people to look up notice a clear difference.
I feel like the best solution to Too Many Qualifiers is the TI approach - tournament hosters should invite approximately half the teams, and have the remaining slots go to top qualifiers. That way there's a good mix of new blood and old, and hype will be higher for the teams that already have proved their mettle.
This also gives pro players control of which tournaments they show up at. I think that's really important. If we're going to raise the bar for standards, T1 teams should make a point of only showing up at T1 tournaments. Don't bother with tournaments that have a history of treating you poorly! Leave those tournaments for T2 and T3 teams.
And players should all be communicating to not get screwed, with each other and the community. I know you were apologizing for bitching about layovers and accomodations, but you shouldn't. If organizers treated you like shit, if organizers aren't paying you, don't be shy about letting the community know. With how many tournaments are trying to get our money, it's good to have a metric other than LOL COMPENDIUM!! and EXCLUSIVE HATS!! to figure out who to throw money at.
Well, in short, he is right.
With this amount of tournaments, DotA will choke on itself someday.
Can you imagine your favorite football/basketball team playing in a different major tournament every 2-3 day? I would actually stopped following my favorite team if that was the case. That goes for e-sports too.
When there is just too many games and too many tournaments and so much drama, some things lose their meaning.
TLDR; Quality over quantity.
Envy, this will be an equally long response (and hopefully as worthwhile)
United States1 Post
Major sporting leagues have had similar issues in their early expansion history. Perhaps the two best examples of this are baseball and the NCAA. In baseball's case they have come away with the strongest union in the history of man and in the NCAA, the players are drained of every last cent.
I bring these two up because the latter serves as a cautionary tale of what can happen to e-sports in general. Let's be real; the income that tournaments source from sponsors, twitch, and ticket sales is astronomical compared to the prize pool. Now, I don't want to turn it into a "the players are paid too little" discussion, as in sure someone with organizing experience might refute it (though I doubt it) but I want to bring it up because e-sports has the magical quality of costing nothing and making a lot of money.
Think about it, what does the group stage of tournaments cost the organizers? Nothing. Internet streaming is peanuts in 2014. Yet, regular seasons are much longer by comparison than the playoffs. Organizers use this period to try and drive up ticket sales for (practically) free. Smart people look to e-sports as the next big thing in part due to the popularity, but also because of the RoI margin.
On towards solutions...
I brought up the baseball players union because they have done collective bargaining correctly. They represent their members while expanding the game and making sure both sides are benefitting.
This is the first I hear about a player's union but it doesn't seem particularly strong (don't write me off as ignorant just yet) if you're having so many issues.
I ask that you find the spirit of what I'm suggesting instead of quickly finding only flaws. What if there were regional representative unions that could deal with the tournaments in their region? I would look to strong leadership from the multi-game teams like EG, C9, Na'Vi in this issue as you seem to operate in a much more corporate manner across the organization than teams that only have one game. Perhaps it is that strong business mindset that needs to be at the forefront of dealings.
Yes, this would mean that the more marquee names are better represented, but that comes with the territory of aggressive expansion. I'll bet a good amount of money that the problems faced aren't just Dota centric but are rather reflected across e-sports. I know that players may not like each other in games or whatnot but I feel you may share solidarity outside of it. Perhaps it's time to make it official in more than just feelings and words.
A union based on multi-game team leadership like this would cause less tournaments to be scheduled in, because dealing with a strong union means that the dealings slow down the output of competitions due to their combative nature. Standards are to be set by players and executives beforehand (length of season, teams per region, quality of admits, etc.)
Sidebar: remember the Na'Vi CEO saying that he's scheduling less tournaments for his squad? It mightve come off as posturing or delusional but that's exactly what I sense would contribute to a bit more merry for players.
Perhaps not all tournaments get to be policed (after all, gaming is a crowd funded endeavor) but you can expect to influence any tournament that hopes to draw the top teams of each region. Imagine if Starladder refused your terms and no one from the top 8 competed. Lajons vs BBC final. Kappa.
There's two ways to make money in tournaments. Win a lot of small tournaments or place in TI. Imagine what the prize fund per tournament would be if there were only four major ones each year.
A union like this would need to understand the need for up and coming teams and provide solutions to represent and promote their rise also, but that's a completely different point.
You're at a point where you influence the landscape now, but more importantly you're here before the big boom. You'll get to make the rules for the game. Abstaining from making a move against or with the organizers and money bags isn't noble, or in accordance to some introverted nature. Not making a move IS a move. All the players, managers, and executives are in this now and by not making a move they give somebody else their power: the same out of touch people you just described.