EPTOn January 25 2008 16:02 MeriaDoKk wrote:
This is starting to look more an more to gg.net
This is starting to look more an more to gg.net
Don't worry, I'm sure calmer minds will prevail, and it will eventually lead to something good.
Starting over again - Page 5
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
Don't worry, I'm sure calmer minds will prevail, and it will eventually lead to something good. | ||
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Klaz
Ireland334 Posts
It's surprising how much a good nights sleep can do to clear one's head. I've never claimed to be impeccable in my knowledge of starcraft, far from it. I try to commentate on the game as I know it. I do like learning more about the game though perhaps I don't have as much time as others to invest in that. That being said, I find a lot of little, in fact every little thing that happens in a game of starcraft to be "interesting". How much of this is my love and passion for the game and how much stems from lack of knowledge I don't know. But I try to convey my enthusiasm because I feel it makes the game more enjoyable, and I do think a lot of other people also find it interesting. To me just saying, "this is standard," I dunno, it just feels dull and flavourles. Though I can see that maybe it makes some people wanna tear their hair out. There has been a good amount of credible and positive/constructive critical feedback through the threads, but there have also been people who just seem "out to get us," which comes through in their tone, along with thinly veiled attacks and vitriolic innuendo. I'll be honest and admit that those particular comments, especially many of the abrasive ones by zulu to start with put my back up to begin with and put me in a defensive stance because regardless of his endless claims of the contrary it was very personal and I did take it very personally. As for Fakesteve. I can appreciate that a lot of his comments he tried to be as impartial as he could. The fact is that he probably made a careless, offhand remark about calling someone who responded to them a "nobody" and my calling him out on it lead to the situation becoming worse. I'm sure deep down he probably feels it was the wrong thing to do, and my jumping on the mistake was probably a bit mercenary as well. Anyway, at the end of it I don't hold a personal animosity towards him. If he still feels I'm a shithead, well that's his perogative. When people get personally involved in an arguement it's very easy to lose sight of judgement. I'm sure I did, as I feel did a few others. Anyway, I'm putting this to rest now. I'm gonna keep commentating with as much enthusiasm as I can bring to it. Though I do feel demoralised right now, I hope time will help to lift that. As for feedback, if people who watch my commentaries feel I made a mistake in upcoming ones that I post, then I'd appreciate a polite and dispassionate PM. I'll do my best to take it as well intentioned and incorporate it into my commentating in the future. But if the tone is condescending or inflammatory I won't reply. I will not respond to threads in forums because it only leads to more flaming, despite whatever best intentions everyone might start out with. I do sincerely apologise to anyone I've offended. I also won't respond further in this thread. So good luck to eveyrone and enjoy starcraft for the pure exhiliration that it is! | ||
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Southlight
United States11746 Posts
Someone make a thread, titled something like English commentary corrections. And every time someone sees a commentary and sees a significant mistake (not calling Bisu Reach or something trivial like that), that person makes a post, links to the commentary, with time if possible, and makes an objective explanation of what went wrong. Sea went 8 rax which is _____ because _____. It's clear, it's to the point, and the lack of emotion in the wording should prevent anyone from having to feel like it's an attack. How many times have you gotten an essay back, read the red words and had to become offensive? I'd gather close to never, and that's because professional corrections are emotionless sons of bitches that are (almost) always right. It'll make the knowledgeable people feel better, and it'll help the commentators learn. It's pretty clear from responses that they simply don't have the time nor drive to mass games to learn. And who can blame them, they put a lot of time and effort on *commentating* after all. I'm sure no one rags on pro-team coaches for a general lack of SC playing either. They just... learn as they go, from other people. I think you can get a pretty damn good understanding of the game simply from watching and hearing, even if you won't be able to pull off/make the same decisions while playing. But that's not what anyone's after. I think part of the problem so far was that things like zulu's corrections, which I agree with for the most part, were being taken so harshly because of the context, in that there was a lot of negativity. Make a clean, hopefully moderated start with a fresh thread built for the purpose. Should work. | ||
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Skew
United States1019 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
to anyone wishing to do a service for a community: man the fuck up. when you expose yourself and your efforts to a large community, especially one that is partially contrived of people who know a whole fuckload more than you do about Starcraft, you're going to get extreme criticisms. that's just part and parcel to what you do. whether you allow yourself to get demoralized is entirely up to you. i can sympathize with your position - i was responsible for making balance changes/decisions for an RTS game with a relatively large hardcore community (where my contributions directly impact their playing experience, not just an optional tune-in commentary) and i would be lying if i said i was never demoralized. however, that same experience taught me the obvious axiom that taking it personally only hurts my ability to make good decisions, as well as hinders my ability to retain anything positive that could be garnered from such negative feedback. In your position i would have made it very simple to the TL.net crowd: "Your criticisms of my analysis, while sound, are irrelevant to my goals of this commentary. If i ever care to do a commentary such as you desire, i will make sure to heed such advice." or, if you're not patient with such faggots (like me), you could just say "go eat shit and die". either way, grab a hold of your dick with two hands and swing it with some confidence. edit - and keep up the good work! | ||
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Play
Australia608 Posts
If you watch and say stuff like "@ ? : ?? blah blah did this, you missed it, a critical mistake which could have turned the whole match around" then you arent exactly watching it for entertainment and rather watch pro vids to see strats and look to improve your already decent game, not watch just to see pure amazing play by pro players and dream of being able to pull off half of what they are able to do. When Diggity, moletrap and Klaz politely started their thread, they didnt mention them being anything near to pro. Infact that they were welcome to some feedback knowing that they could do with alot of improvement if they were to appeal to the oh so elite tl vets. What they received was in some cases pure flaming and personal shots, all for doing the sc community a FUCKING MASSIVE FAVOR for providing them with easy access to hundreds and hundreds of vods on youtube with exciting, insightful commentary. I feel that these guys are really the only link between the aspiring noobs who are amazed by their vids and the vets who give shit all about their vids. How they are being treated is fucking poor, thousands of people know that you won't find nicer, politer guys than these 3, so why are they sometimes treated like peices of shit?? i think diggity summed it up in first post. | ||
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
I mean look at the last post by Klaz - the fact is that they aren't willing to try to get better at the game to better their content - and all you guys are worried about is making sure that their feelings are intact. You can imagine that from our point of view, we are saying to the community that hey you guys deserve better, and everyone that swarms in basically has said that no - we don't care about having better analysis, we just want to be entertained. Think about that. Certainly people can enjoy Starcraft in different ways, but you would think that at a professional Starcraft site, we would emphasize (accurately) how intricate the game is. If you want to be entertained, go have a chat on the Bnet forums. Again, I want to emphasize that the reason this has all turned into a huge flamewar was mainly because of the one central point that really ticked the people that disliked the commentaries off - that in basically none of the replies were the commentators willing to say that they wanted to improve their game through work - but rather just looked for "constructive" criticism, were defensive about their roles, and pussied out of actively improving their understanding. If anything that's a fucking disgusting and shameful mindset worthy of our frustration. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On January 25 2008 16:50 Klaz wrote: There has been a good amount of credible and positive/constructive critical feedback through the threads, but there have also been people who just seem "out to get us," which comes through in their tone, along with thinly veiled attacks and vitriolic innuendo. I'll be honest and admit that those particular comments, especially many of the abrasive ones by zulu to start with put my back up to begin with and put me in a defensive stance because regardless of his endless claims of the contrary it was very personal and I did take it very personally. OMGOMG IM OUT TO GET YOU. I'm out to get you because you suck at commentating. That's completely unethical and wrong right. I should never criticize people harshly no matter how bad they are at something they do because that makes unsympathetic and a bad person in general. On January 25 2008 16:50 Klaz wrote: When people get personally involved in an arguement it's very easy to lose sight of judgement. I'm sure I did, as I feel did a few others. I've never commented on anything about you besides your starcraft commentating ability. So if you feel like that was personal than you should re-evaluate how you take criticism. This is the first thing I'll say about you Klazart, now that I've seen how you react. You are the definition of the word bitch, you think people's criticisms don't have any validity when their "tone" is rude or "out to get you." You can't seperate the simple fact that what a person says has no bearting on how he says it. You get personal over criticism that was not worth crying over. However you cried and threw a hissy fit and attacked fakesteve for his reaction to what another forum member said to him instead of concentrating on the fact that you have no knowledge about starcraft yet you're commentating professional games. Now after everything's settled you still act like you were targeted unfairly and had every right to react the way you did. Klazart, you do not have the starcraft knowledge to accurately describe most of the stuff that is happening in a progaming game, much like Diggity and Moletrap. I have backed up my statement with evidence which you refuse to accept because you are a bitch. You are not a victim, you're simply a little girl who cries when someone critcizes you. I hope you will eventually understand. | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On January 26 2008 02:53 naventus wrote: Mora: Have you considered that because we know the reaction would be what happened (commentators taking it terribly) that it pissed us off more. I mean look at the last post by Klaz - the fact is that they aren't willing to try to get better at the game to better their content - and all you guys are worried about is making sure that their feelings are intact. You can imagine that from our point of view, we are saying to the community that hey you guys deserve better, and everyone that swarms in basically has said that no - we don't care about having better analysis, we just want to be entertained. Think about that. Certainly people can enjoy Starcraft in different ways, but you would think that at a professional Starcraft site, we would emphasize (accurately) how intricate the game is. If you want to be entertained, go have a chat on the Bnet forums. Again, I want to emphasize that the reason this has all turned into a huge flamewar was mainly because of the one central point that really ticked the people that disliked the commentaries off - that in basically none of the replies were the commentators willing to say that they wanted to improve their game through work - but rather just looked for "constructive" criticism, were defensive about their roles, and pussied out of actively improving their understanding. If anything that's a fucking disgusting and shameful mindset worthy of our frustration. I'm not sure you understand what i was trying to say. My point: if you were trying to improve the quality of the commentators by providing feedback, you delivered the feedback in such a way that your goal could not possibly be achieved. You defeated yourself. If your goal was simply to deliver feedback (and not to improve the quality of the commentators), then you achieved that goal. Personally, i enjoyed reading steve's and zulu's rebuttles. They were articulate, to the point, well-writ, exceptionally painful (because of the lack of holes in their logic) - and let's face it, i'm in love with a well-written flame. i've attempted to deal my fair share of (legitimate/accurate) flames myself. However, if my sole goal is to help another improve at what they do, i do so in a way that will accomplish that goal. It's apparent that that was not the place everyone else was coming from. I feel that steve/zulu/other-flamers have masqueraded behind the idea that they are 'trying to help'. *it may be the case that zulu/steve do not have the necessary communication skills to accomplish such a task, and also may be oblivious to the existence of such social ettiquette. However, i doubt that. (particularly in the case of Steve) If you're a teacher and you have a particularly thick student, do you berate him for what he does wrong? Do you call him clueless? Do you go out of your way to painstakingly pinpoint each mistake and how stupid they were? if so, i hope you never go into teaching. The best methods of teaching are from angles of being understanding, encouraging, and providing positive reinforcement. Of which i feel you guys failed miserably at. But again, i'm fairly certain that that was never the goal. The goal was to flame the commentators (which is fun) in the way of providing accurate undebatable critique. Any attempt at improving their commentating was (obviously) a secondary goal. And they succeeded. They are not responsible for how personally the commentators took the critique (that's entirely up to the person receiving the critique), but knew with certainty that that was the outcome (just like the knew that Starport was coming). I already stated that the commentators, if they have any desire to actually be successful at what they do, need to grow some balls and take all forms of criticism in stride. Which is completely irrelevant to the delivery that zulu chose to use. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my points in sum: * There is absolutely nothing wrong with flaming the commentators * Flaming the commentators (specifically these ones) is the poorest way of improving their ability to do what they do. * The second point is an axiom that should be known accross all genres of communication As much as you would all like to think your critique is right, just, and necessary to them doing a good job, i think the fact that more people appreciate and enjoy their commentaries over the likes of Nony's, speaks for itself. The content within the commentary is not nearly as important as the delivery. This is true because more people care about the delivery than the content. The small percentile of tl.net vets who think otherwise are unimportant. Why don't you guys do something constructive and go flame Nony for being clueless. He is smart enough to not take it personally and could also use as much work in his delivery as the other's do in their content. (somewhat ironically, i'd imagine that any criticism given to nony would be delivered alot gentler than the criticism delivered to klaz and diggity. lol) P.S. nony, i love your commentaries and do not wish for you to change a thing. While they don't cater to the broader audience they DO cater to me, and i love you for it. <3 | ||
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Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
Good post, Mora | ||
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