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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them.
Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries.
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As a slight off topic, could anyone direct me to where I could sample some of Artosis or Nony's commentaries of pro games? I've seen Nony, Chill, and Merz's commentaries of their own games but you guys seem to keep mentioning Artosis and Nony as if they've commentated pro games but I haven't found them.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
they haven't, Artosis is one of the commentators of Ascension which is a non-korean tournament with some really really great games in it. Nony posts all of his commentaries in his blog, but the only progaming one I know of is a commentary of jaedong vs bisu
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On January 25 2008 12:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
they haven't, Artosis is one of the commentators of Ascension which is a non-korean tournament with some really really great games in it. Nony posts all of his commentaries in his blog, but the only progaming one I know of is a commentary of jaedong vs bisu
Yeah, I just found that now. I was like "crap, have I been living under a rock or something?" Thanks.
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Somewhat offtopic, but here goes. I'd rank the english commentators I've listened to as follows:
Tasteless. That man cracks me up.
Klazart. You're words-per-minute puts July's APM to shame.
Diggity/Moletrap. Both of you are a lot like Klazart in your commentaries, but without the wpm of July on crack.
Of course, this is entirely subjective, totally biased, and all that. I think it also changes my listening/viewing experience, the more VOD's I watch. I watch a lot more VOD's than I play games, so I think my understanding of the game is higher than my physical skill level. Because of that, I often understand many of the nuances, which means that once in a while I spot something that a commentator misses. Partly, that's why I like Tasteless, because I can look at the game and understand, while listening to him makes me laugh a lot.
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United States1865 Posts
On January 25 2008 12:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them. Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries.
Fair enough but that seems like something that would be better off not taking place so publicly. The fact still stands that you are here calling him a shithead and he is not calling you a shithead.
Also I think another important factor that the whole anti-non-gosu-commentator crowd is forgetting: the major importance that personality has in being an effective and interesting commentator. For example, Nony: while I did quite enjoy his Jaedong/Bisu commentary, it was a completely different type of commentary that lacked excitment but did indeed have strategic depth, and much of the fun I had stemmed from the game being simply fantastic in itself. He can often seem too slow/plodding with a bored monotone quality to his voice, and will lack the funny expressions/jokes/color that a commentator with a better "radio personality" but perhaps less starcraft knowledge, could provide.
Side Note: This, I beleive is what makes the Ascension team of Gentho (personality)/ Artosis (knowledge) so great. But if forced to choose, I would much rather have someone who can give entertainment to even a one-sided rape of a game, than someone who could give me better strategic insight but requires a really great game in order to remain exciting.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:00 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 12:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them. Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries. Fair enough but that seems like something that would be better off not taking place so publicly. The fact still stands that you are here calling him a shithead and he is not calling you a shithead.
You're right, he's not calling me a shithead. He's telling me I'm a disgrace to TL, which is why I'm calling him a shitheaded ignorant child.
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Phyre/Atrioc: Day and Nony did a commentary on the GOM S1 finals (Savior vs Bisu), I recommend you try those, since their styles complement each other well. I can upload the audio and/or video if you want.
I don't remember if they were done live.
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United States1865 Posts
I have watched those actually -- I'm a huge sAviOr fan and they provided some great insight into those games when everyone was just running around shocked at the 3-0 (including myself). But again its a completely different type of commentary and I think both types should have a welcome home with respect for benefiting the SC community, even if one is more fulfilling to higher-level players.
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You people are retards. There's nothing wrong with elitism - if you don't like it, get the fuck out and go back to WCreplays. There's plenty of newbasses there and you can have a discussion about Pally first vs UD on TM.
One point was made that these shitty commentaries don't lead new players astray. Teamliquid doesn't need an influx of new blood if new blood is
1. not willing to learn from better players
2. a bunch of defensive pussies
You know how in Chinese martial art movies the master is so harsh on his students - that they do these seemingly pointless exercises? The reason they do that, and you do anything seemingly pointless, is so that you are able to do the more difficult thing at a level of real understanding.
SC is the same. You can come in here and fill up the forums with your trash and low quality. We are telling you that you are wrong. Would you go to a film review society and tell them how much of a good movie AvP was? How that the cinematography was excellent and the script was brilliantly structured? No - because you don't know shit. You could call them elitist, but guess what, they are right and you are wrong.
There's nothing wrong with being wrong - there's something wrong with being a fucking pussy about it. We don't need more new blood around here if that's all you have to offer.
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I agree with naventus although I choose to use kinder words because flaming isn't for me
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I'm mostly going to try to stay out of this.
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out.
I'm sorry but you can never know for sure if some player has some crazy new build they've cooked up. Not for sure. And yes, even pro gamers sometimes make mistakes. Not often, but it happens. I saw some pro game the other day where the guy made 2 citadels (to make his zealots go even faster?), lol. And don't give me the "omg not bisu he's too gosu" argument.. they're all human.
In any case, the other thing I wanted to say is that it's big of Diggity to come out and be reconciliatory about this whole thing, and it's really not cool for people to come in and respond to his "let's work this out" post with more flaming. There hasn't been much of that, but it irked me. Edit: Naventus this means you. If you're going to be an instigator in what was mostly a civil thread, at least do it in PM.
Also, you can't really blame Klaz for being defensive. As a hypothetical situation... imagine that you took up, I dunno... knitting. You try out knitting and you like it so you do more of it and you make some pot holders and you make a little scarf... and you're like wow, knitting is fun! You've been knitting for like 6 months and you go to a knitting club and they look at your half finished sweater and say "Oh my fucking god you noob you fucking suck you should never knit again and you suck!" You'd feel pretty offended, wouldn't you? You tell them that it's only a basic stitch and you think it's pretty good for a basic stitch and they call you a defensive pussy. But if you stopped now, you'd never be a gosu knitx0r, would you? I'm not sure if that metaphor is perfect, but I got to say "gosu knitx0r" so I'm calling it a success.
At the very least let's all be civil.
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That's only because you are used to people giving you stickers for effort.
There's something to be said for manning up, shutting up, and getting better.
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On January 25 2008 13:43 naventus wrote:
You people are retards. There's nothing wrong with elitism - if you don't like it, get the fuck out and go back to WCreplays. There's plenty of newbasses there and you can have a discussion about Pally first vs UD on TM.
LOL Typical 
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Naventus you are a fucking man. I applaud you.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:58 f10esqftw wrote:
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out.
look man i agree with the rest of your post but you can't say this, you simply can't.
there are signs that tell you exactly what a player is doing. there is in fact 100% in starcraft, but its in specific things. any time either I or zulu has said something is "100%", we mean in that particular situation, and yes we can predict certain things with perfect accuracy.
I can't stand this stuff where you or klazart say that despite being wrong about something, we're not right either because "nothing is 100% in starcraft".
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On January 25 2008 14:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 13:58 f10esqftw wrote:
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out. look man i agree with the rest of your post but you can't say this, you simply can't. there are signs that tell you exactly what a player is doing. there is in fact 100% in starcraft, but its in specific things. any time either I or zulu has said something is "100%", we mean in that particular situation, and yes we can predict certain things with perfect accuracy. I can't stand this stuff where you or klazart say that despite being wrong about something, we're not right either because "nothing is 100% in starcraft".
Right, like 100% of the time protoss players will make only 1 citadel, and not accidentally make an extra............ Shit happens, dude. You can never know when it will happen, but it happens.
You can maybe know 100% what would almost always be the case, or know 100% what would be traditionally the best thing to do which you can expect from a pro player, but until it happens, you can't know it will.
That said, I understand that there are times when there may be a 99.9% situation where any player will almost always do X, and yes, sometimes I say "hmmm, maybe he's going to do Y." But no, there is no 100%. Whenever things are dependent on human decision, there is no complete certainty.
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stuff like nexus vs 12 hatch being safe is one of those 100% facts
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Calgary25981 Posts
The faster you accept you are wrong, the faster we can all grow and move on. For some reason you think your analysis is fine.
As your number one staff fan, I'm telling you it's terrible. More often that not you predict the entire build wrong. Otherwise you will say something about it being dangerous or very aggressive which is wrong, and if not that you will suggest a counter that is wrong. I'm not saying this to be a dick, but there's a lot wrong! 14 Nexus is safe against 12 Hatch but not 9 Pool are the kinds of things you need to know to give any sort of analysis on the game whatsoever.
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This is starting to look more an more to gg.net
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EPT
