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Hong Kong20321 Posts
diggity (or any other english commentators) fighting.
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Diggity
I apologize for stirring up this general negative attitude towards your commentaries. I'm glad you found the 2nd feedback helpful. The way I see it, the best way for you guys to improve is not by listening to more feedback but by playing more starcraft to deepen your understanding of the game. Your response that because you guys never claimed to be professionals, is no excuse for making commentaries that exhibit the knowledge of people way below the standard of the average Teamliquid, the best foreign starcraft community progaming fan.
Part of the negativity and flaming also stems from how Klazart reacted to the criticism, he chose not to respond to my strategical feedback but to my tone, my personal contributions to starcraft, and my general behavior on this forum. All of which have nothing to do with my original feedback towards the quality of his commentary. Now that I have apologized, I hope you guys can also step back and realize that you guys need to improve your knowledge of starcraft in order to make decent commentaries. I hope you guys can ignore the negativity and take the criticisms in stride. Looking forward to more.
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I agree playing more starcraft is the ultimate solution to the problem. The issue lies in finding time to do so and finding a comfortable venue to do so as well.
Your response that because you guys never claimed to be professionals, is no excuse for making commentaries that exhibit the knowledge of people way below the standard of the average Teamliquid, the best foreign starcraft community progaming fan.
This is the sort of thing I worry about though for the future of teamliquid. This really reeks of ivory tower to me like somehow you are all being lowered by our commentaries or something.
I really think it would suit the community better to put their ICCUP ranking aside and generally take a humble attitude, especially towards those re-entering and starting up the game.
I have seen this sort of thing rising more more lately as people are steadily streaming back either due to sc2 or general interest in Esports.
I feel like this is the largest divide in the current starcraft community (returners vs vets) and unless we deal with it now it will only get worse.
And unfortunately I have to say the ball is in the vets court on this one. You guys really should be more hands on rather than treating those who "have a lower iccup ranking" as though they were pariahs who stain your image or something.
Seriously to ignore/cut off new blood is the fastest way to die out. I feel like if TL doesn't get a grip on this they will be dead in short measure.
Now that I have apologized, I hope you guys can also step back and realize that you guys need to improve your knowledge of starcraft in order to make decent commentaries
I always think there is room to improve... no matter what but I feel like "decent commentaries" here is another stab.
I understand the commentaries have a lot of flaws, but they are still massively entertaining for a lot of people. I understand that entertaining = strategically accurate to many of the tl members but it does not for many of the viewers.
Ultimately I am more concerned with entertainment value for myself and others rather than strategic accuracy (otherwise I would watch it through first). This does not mean I refuse to improve, it simply means I am not ultimately pandering to the 8 year vet, I am pandering to the complete neophyte. I hope you all can understand this.
quoting myself elsewhere:
As soon as you said 8 rax I realized your point. Its ironic since when I did play I 8 raxed almost exclusively when I played terran (sometimes to actually 8 rax and other times just to kill the scout early and do something stupid silly like go 2 port wraith against protoss... yes I know thats a bad idea which is why I enjoyed doing it).
In this situation I assumed a depot was down off screen which was a terrible mistake.
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Well, the stuff you guys are commentating on are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard for how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means.
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Well, the stuff you guys are commentating about are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard as to how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means.
I would sort of compare this to football. Granted the arm chair viewer isn't going to be contributing as much as the former all star QB, but that doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute as far commentating goes.
TBH generally with my commentaries I was scared that if I got into the build orders things would end up feeling rock paper scissorsish and result in something stale.
I still fear that if I start paying explicit attention to build orders instead of passively noting it that things will start to feel stale.
What I have tried to emphasize instead is the players personalities and tendencies themselves. For example Upmagic's penchant for creative builds and Memory's (memories?) dedication to the drop.
However as a direct result of this I ended up in the bad habit of ignoring it outright even when it was critically significant.
Again I will chalk this up to move on and learn. Tonight I am suppose to do Orion v Jang bi. I will make an expressed effort to comment on the build orders in particular even though I chose this match specifically to highlight Orion's style.
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What's wrong with ivory tower? Did you just get the phrase off of Fox News?
People think that your work is trash and have every right to say so. If you are taken aback by people not liking your work, maybe you should pack up and leave. Otherwise, don't ask for them to apologize for their criticism and by defensive about your work- make your work better.
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In my opinion i think your commentaries are not bad, it's nice for me to watch a game and actually listen to someone who i can understand, okay maybe your are not a pro player but hell, neither am I and the other 95% of teamliquid people.
Well thats all, gL whit your future commentaries :D
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What's wrong with ivory tower? Did you just get the phrase off of Fox News?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower
If you don't see what is inherently wrong with ivory tower I worry deeply about the future.
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What's wrong? You do realize that most inventions and most of the advances in the modern world have stemmed from rigorous and difficult intellectual pursuits undertaken by very few people.
Maybe there's nothing arrogant about the ivory tower - rather it's the people that rail against it that should gain some humility and evaluate their own ignorance.
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On January 25 2008 02:49 Diggity wrote:Show nested quote +Well, the stuff you guys are commentating about are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard as to how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means. I would sort of compare this to football. Granted the arm chair viewer isn't going to be contributing as much as the former all star QB, but that doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute as far commentating goes. TBH generally with my commentaries I was scared that if I got into the build orders things would end up feeling rock paper scissorsish and result in something stale. I still fear that if I start paying explicit attention to build orders instead of passively noting it that things will start to feel stale. What I have tried to emphasize instead is the players personalities and tendencies themselves. For example Upmagic's penchant for creative builds and Memory's (memories?) dedication to the drop. However as a direct result of this I ended up in the bad habit of ignoring it outright even when it was critically significant. Again I will chalk this up to move on and learn. Tonight I am suppose to do Orion v Jang bi. I will make an expressed effort to comment on the build orders in particular even though I chose this match specifically to highlight Orion's style.
Ok I will make a list when you release it
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Right. clearing the air. Stick to the objective and all that....
So here are my objective refutations of the first 15-20 or so points made by zulu in his first commentary. You're welcome to agree/disagree debate endlessly whatever. My original post in my blog still stands as to you motivation despite your claims to the contrary I remain suspect...anyways..
You say you want to point out primarily mistakes. Well there is a difference between mistakes and opinion. You wanted a factual argument so lets have a factual argument.
I think you made an offhand remark about there being 100 mistakes. So obviously to prove you're point you had to find them. I think this has lead you to clutch at straws and try and find issues where there aren't any. Many of your points are semantical in nature and matters of opinion. Also, a lot of the things you have issue with are not in fact mistakes at all but just not "interesting enough for you," which is fine. You don't find it interesting. Other people do. The fact you don't is less interesting than anything else.
Lastly a lot of your points seem to be based on the assumption that only players above a certain "STANDARD" watch or enjoy starcraft pro-vods. At this point I'll remind you that even Tasteless points out very basic and mundane things that are STANDARD and OBVIOUS because he recognises that they are not STANDARD and OBVIOUS to everyone who might be watching the game. That being said, here is a detailed rebuttal of the "mistakes"
So here are the first 45:
- 2:06, "wow very interesting jaedong just took the min only expansion" why is that interesting? there was a probe at jaedong's natural.
Is this a starcraft mistake? Or is it just your opinion that it's not interesting? Can you be certain it's not an interesting fact to everyone else listening? I think it is interesting for many reasons. It can change the game entirely. The 3'o clock expansion is a lot more vulnerable than his natural expo, especially early game. Sunkens placed at it may not be enough to defend the natural, and consequently the main. The zerg might be planning on going 3 hatch anyway, but this forces them to be more spread out.
- 2:30, any decent toss knows to nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch, it doesn't leave them "vulnerable" whatsoever.
It's still a very valid question. Maybe not to you with your "advanced knowledge" but a lot of people listening may not have that knowledge, so it's a good point nevertheless to clarify for people listening.
- 2:34, Jaedong doesn't need to scout with a drone he knows 99% Bisu will fast expand, you simply can't go one base on blue storm because of choke.
99% is not 100%. So you're saying there is no chance of any sort of a rush build or a proxy gateway or anything at all ingenous or different on blue storm? It always must be a fast expand? In hindsight, yes that's what he did do.
- 2:39, "Jaedong will probably opt for a third hatchery anyway" Not probably, definitely
This is hindsight talking. And clutching at straws. An arguement of semantics... probably/definately. The point is that the most likely thing is he would get a 3rd hatchery here and this was pointed out. But unless you happen to be a mind reader you cannot guarentee it 100%. There is always a small chance that the player can do something different.
- 2:40, continued from last sentence "...so those lings won't be getting out too long after" what does getting a third hatchery have to do with lings?
- 3:03, "no toss can seem to do the build fast enough" what does that mean? every toss does the same build order, Bisu does it better because he harasses better, macros and micros better.
Maybe this is a language barrier problem? Isn't that exactly what he is saying? That Bisu is the most effective at it. That he gets the combo going in time to counter the zerg player when most other protoss players are not able to do so. Again this is nit picking on language or semantics. Nothing fundamentally wrong was said here.
- 3:07, again, nexus before forge is the STANDARD build vs 12 hatch, it has nothing to do with how good Bisu is. zero
there was no comment made about nexus before forge at 3:07. Are you just repeating this point you supposedly already made because you don't have enough points?
- 3:13, "it looks like he won't be going for a lot of lings after all, as you can see a couple eggs hatching there" what?
- 3:45, quoted roughly "one of the hallmarks of a great player is to keep his defense to a minimum" klazart makes that comment after seeing only one cannon. Bisu only built one cannon because he has his probe scout to see how many lings Jaedong has built and whether they are going for Bisu's base or not, it's very basic scouting that any decent foreign toss knows how to do.
This is a highly highly subjective opinion. Did we just not see a game where a protoss player built 7 photon cannons vs Nada? Okay fine, it was vs T. But to say that "any decent foreign toss does this" is making a very general statement. Even if they do? So what? There are a lot of ppl who watch our vods that might not know this. Maybe it's not "in depth" enough for you, but for you to claim it's "wrong" is really stretching it. It's my opinion that the best players do keep defenses to a minimum and always tread the line, savior and bisu do it. I don't know how many foreign players do it or not though they should be doing it. Maybe this wasn't a perfect example of that but it was still pertinent enough to illustrate the point.
#10 - 3:55 - 4:17, Klazart pulls out a question straight from his ass, which was basically "do you think bisu went nexus before forge because he's adapting to jaedong's new zvp style he used vs stork?"... no man, for the 3rd time he went nexus before forge cuz jaedong 12 hatched.
this point I can concede, it was a bit of a superficial question. Nevertheless, putting nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch is by DEFINITION adapting your strategy according to what the opponent is doing.
- 4:22, delaying 2nd hatch has nothing to do with when lings gonna come out, only thing that affects when lings come out is when zerg builds his pool.
It has everything to do with it. If the zerg is waiting till after he gets the hatch down before he puts his pool it can delay for a second or to. It can be a simple issue of micro, if nothing else. It may not have an effect every time against every player but it can have an effect. Secondly and more importantly, it was said very clearly "plus he had that probe there so he knew when the lings were coming"
- 4:26, Jaedong never built six lings at start.
Okay fine. He forgot or missed in the heat of the commentary that jaedong hadn't built six lings throuhgout. But on the fly it was a decent guess that he might have. Regardless the point isn't the lings coming or not coming.... the point is that he had the info to know when they would be coming and therefore could play accordingly.
- 4:28, "I think what's really interesting is Bisu only has a single cannon down." That's very standard when protoss sees zerg only builds two zerglings at start, not very interesting.
Again subjective. Not very interesting to who? The fact that his game play is so precise is an interesting fact. Maybe not to "uber leet pros" who do it automatically, but certainly to people who watch for fun or entertaiment or maybe don't play at that level.
- 5:15, the Stork vs Jaedong game, no one thinks the cannons were placed badly, they were placed around stork's nexus and all were able to hit Jaedong's mutalisks. Stork losing his corsairs very poorly and not getting enough cannons were his main mistakes.
More subjective opinion and nit picking. How do you know no one things that? Have you read every single opinion in every single starcraft community about that particular game? Maybe some ppl did blame (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant here) the cannon placement. Obviously Diggity read it somewhere or he wouldn't have said it. You say it was poor micro by stork and not enough cannons. Some people feel it was more down to jaedong's superior micro. Sure there may have been other factors involved, but diggity was just making a quick point about the game, and obviously we couldn't cover every single facet of it.
- 5:15, again something very standard, when you attack protoss with mutalisks of course you send the mutalisks first then scourges to target corsairs, it's not something only Jaedong can do. Only reason why Stork lost his corsair was because he didn't attempt to dodge the scourges.
How subjective is this also? What do you mean ofc? Not every player in the world has the timing and micro to pull off what Jaedong did. The proof is in the pudding that we don't see it happening so often in pro games where a protoss' fleet get's owned in that manner. Jaedong's play may not have been the only factor but it was certainly one of them
All these things that are "standard" that I'm naming, they're not just from my perspective, when I play D+ tosses on iccup they know to go nexus before forge when they see 12 hatch.
So only D+ tosses watch starcraft vods. Right that makes sense now.
- 5:17, pretty obvious he had stargate.
nonsense. Because a day or two after this there was a game where a player went for the robo bay first. So it does happen. But hey it's easy to watch the vod come back later and go "ofc there's a stargate". There may be a high chance of one, but until you see it you can never be 100% sure in starcraft what a player will do.
- 5:38, this is something very key you guys missed that I think as commentators you definitely should've pointed out. Bisu's core was rotating meaning he was researching +1 air which means Bisu will be getting a lot of corsairs and most likely a sair/reaver build. +1 sairs requires a lot less sairs to be invulnerable vs scourges.
Here is where live commenting is different from analysis after the fact. When you are talking and in the middle of a thought, it's easy to miss something like that, because you are already talking about something. But ya we missed it. It happens. This was a genuine mistake.
- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.
- 7:50, "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu within his natural with just zerglings." That's because Bisu has one zealot and one dragoon -_-
Doesn't change anything. The fact still remains, that Jaedong has got his units positioned correctly and he is restricting his opponent and not allowing him to get any ground units out. Bisu does have a reaver, two zealots and a dragoon at this point. The above statement is not incorrect in anyway.
#20 - 8:10, "Jaedong interesting does not go for mutalisks but hydralisks." Again that's not very interesting at all, Jaedong was using all of his larvas when spire was almost done.
You really cannot get more subjective than this. Why is it not interesting? Larva or not, he clearly made a choice. That choice does clearly affect the game. When I made the comment he had a lot of scourges up and running and trying to kill corsairs in bisu's base, so he could have made more mutalisks by the time that comment was made if he had chosen to.
- 8:24, "This is entirely uncharacteristic of Bisu" It's very common when going reaver/sair to take the 3rd gas expansion first then attack. Bisu at that point has at the most two reavers.
Very common for WHO? Diggity is talking specifically about BISU here. He's watched a lot of Bisu's games and he is talking about what he thinks bisu is likely to do. Maybe he should do it or not. Maybe something else is standard. Whatever. This is what Diggity thinks Bisu does on a regular basis, so him not doing it is uncharacteristic.
- 9:19, Klazart asked if Jaedong should've gone mutalisks to maintain air superiority and you said it was an interesting question, maybe you were just being polite I don't know but to the audience that is a very dumb question as there is no way he could keep up with early upgraded +1 attack two stargate corsairs with mutalisks off of two gases. So no, he never in a million years should've gone mutalisks.
To which audience? Oh I forgot, Iccup players.
My hands kinda gave up after this...
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I think its best to take klaz's list as a way to better improve feedback.
I actually liked the +1 air attack comment the most.
Not sure how I missed that and it seals the air for Bisu. Though (not being able to see the vod) I'm not sure that Jaedong could have spotted it out and inherently known that Bisu was committing anti-air, but its a pretty safe assumption (considering Bisu).
I definitely think that the implications of +1 air attack upgrade could generate an interesting indepth lengthy conversation.
Actually I wouldn't mind opinions on the subject right this moment... does anyone here feel like that was a miss que and that Bisu would have been better served opting else wise?
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Your response is precisely the thing that also ticks most of us off. Stop trying to defend yourself - people that know what they are talking about say your work needs improvement. You should try to figure out how to improve instead of being so pussy.
This sort of defensive behavior is akin to some newb on Bnet forums defending why fast Mind control is a valid strategy. Get over it.
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Braavos36362 Posts
Klaz, just for example, the comments on the nex before cannons or 1 cannon due to scouting probe, you can say things like:
"The standard practice for Protoss is to..."
This explains to both audiences fine.
"Protoss builds number of cannons relative to what their scouting probe sees. Bisu's probe is generally a lot better at staying alive and getting information than other P's, because his multitask ability allows it to take less hits early on."
There's a difference between explaining to an different audience and simply explaining wrongly.
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On January 25 2008 03:51 naventus wrote:
Your response is precisely the thing that also ticks most of us off. Stop trying to defend yourself - people that know what they are talking about say your work needs improvement. You should try to figure out how to improve instead of being so pussy.
This sort of defensive behavior is akin to some newb on Bnet forums defending why fast Mind control is a valid strategy. Get over it.
I disagree with what he said. I said why I disagree'd with it.
I might need to improve, who doesn't? That doesn't automatically make every point made by zulu into gospel truth.
I'm not going to respond to your petty personal attacks. I've said my piece on the the points that I wanted to.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!!
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On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!!
thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight.
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Klaz if we use your line of reasoning for those defences we can pretty much defend anything anyone ever said about SC strategies.
The fact is that zulu's objections are very black and white and your commentary at those specific points were very clearly lacking, even you trying to defend them just reveals more of your ignorance.
Just shut up and learn, there's no shame to it.
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Klazart, I'm not gonna respond to every single point you made as I already did that for Diggity. I admit I held you guys to too high of a standard but you really messed up on some stuff. A lot of your responses just show even more that you lack the in-depth knowledge needed to comment on progaming play. Yes I used very harsh words and was condescending, I apologize for that. But I hope you can look past it and not try to stubbornly defend youself and instead try to improve on your knowledge. Many of the comments which you find subjective are really not, if you're better at starcraft you would understand immediately. I don't play iccup, I only use iccup ranking as a general indicator of skill level. I'd consider the general population of TL at least ICCUP D level and I think that's a reasonable estimate. However you appear to be lower than that, and that's where I have a problem.
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EPT
