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On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight.
klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ
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On January 25 2008 03:39 Klaz wrote:
- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.
I'll respond to this one. What you just said is even more wrong. Jaedong went 9 pool gas vs stork so of course he built 6 lings because that forces stork to build 2 cannons very early on. Jaedong went 12 hatch vs Bisu so even if he built 6 lings Bisu could've defended it with some sealing probes and one cannon. That's why it has nothing to do with "aggression", but a simple difference in build order.
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Braavos36375 Posts
This particular issue isn't a matter of opinion, because when a Z goes pool gas he almost always build 6 lings, when you 12 hatch you have the option to not. It doesn't matter at all who the opponent is. There's no way Bisu's probe harass had a psychological effect and somehow caused LJD to only build 2 lings. The ling count was a product of the Zerg player's opening, not of how they control their early probes.
In fact, it doesn't even slow the Z player that much to delay the opening hatch because he just plops one at his 2nd nat (at this point LJD had seen the FE from the P). On Blue Storm all it delays is 2nd gas, and the Z player usually doesn't need his 2nd gas that early anyway.
A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
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I think klazart's commentaries are fine.
For example, I showed one of them to my 16 year old sister, who doesn't play ANY video games, and she thought it was entertaining. I think there is a reason why he doesn't keep a blog of them here, and thats because this isn't his primary audience.
Just like football commentaries on tv are a lot different than the coach's commentary in the film room, it really depends on the audience.
Anyway, when klazart starts accepting money for his commentaries (and hopefully he will), he may have time to spend 70 hours a week on starcraft and learn each build order down to the supply count. But right now he's married and is busy writing a novel...games really are for kids.
Also, I'd like to say I'm glad blogs don't get closed anymore....although it might be best if all these posts got closed, its also good to have discussion.
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On January 25 2008 04:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight. klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ
You're a complete trolling arsehole.
I mean you suck at talking to people politely, that's not a personal attack.
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i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you. Otherwise protoss needs sairs or templars to deal with mutalisks, so judging from how Jaedong was not hydra rushing there was no way bisu got a robo without stargate. So it's not something I said in hindsight it's something that I expect people who are commentating on bisu can pick up right away.
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On January 25 2008 04:42 Never Post wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 04:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight. klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ You're a complete trolling arsehole. I mean you suck at talking to people politely, that's not a personal attack.
that would be a personal attack because you're commenting on my internet social ability.
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A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
Yea you make a good point HotBid.
On other maps (mostly 4 player maps) the probe harassing a 12 hatch earlier plays a bigger role since usually there is no easily accessible 3rd expansion nearby. Granted delaying the 2nd hatch isn't the end of the world but it is certainly helpful.
Probe harasses don't mean as much on blue storm since there is a nearby easily accessible min. It only delays 2nd gas which usually isn't that big a factor unless the zerg player is going some crazy super fast tech build which falls into the 99% doesn't happen section (though who knows).
i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you.
I think this was mentioned before but Much went robo before gate in the playoffs fairly recently. Though I dont recall if he had scouted the den at that point or not.
MORE KLAZART MORE
Lets try to be mature plz :/ briefly hovering over the argument it seems semantical
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On January 25 2008 05:14 Diggity wrote:Show nested quote +
A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
Yea you make a good point HotBid. On other maps (mostly 4 player maps) the probe harassing a 12 hatch earlier plays a bigger role since usually there is no easily accessible 3rd expansion nearby. Granted delaying the 2nd hatch isn't the end of the world but it is certainly helpful. Probe harasses don't mean as much on blue storm since there is a nearby easily accessible min. It only delays 2nd gas which usually isn't that big a factor unless the zerg player is going some crazy super fast tech build which falls into the 99% doesn't happen section (though who knows). Show nested quote +i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you. I think this was mentioned before but Much went robo before gate in the playoffs fairly recently. Though I dont recall if he had scouted the den at that point or not. Lets try to be mature plz :/ briefly hovering over the argument it seems semantical
diggity can you link me to the much game please or tell me who it was vs
also, cmon, this is a forum its not supposed to be serious all the time
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Zulu stop being so fucking apologetic goddamnit you said nothing wrong the first time.
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On January 25 2008 05:35 Aphelion wrote:
Zulu stop being so fucking apologetic goddamnit you said nothing wrong the first time.
Agreed. Also
I find its funner to watch VOD's with out commentary. Everything I hear people say I already see / know, this may be due to the fact though that the english commenters aren't so great. I don't need a commenter to tell me when to get excited or what to look out for when I can do those things for myself. Just my 2c
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diggity are you sure thats the right game? much did a normal build
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If on that vid it doesnt have a robo before gateway then its the wrong vid. Let me see if I can find the right one.
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United States7488 Posts
Whenever the English commentators comes up in discussion with anyone I know it is almost always praise with the exception of some who are much more knowledgeable and understanding of Starcraft. But this is the same with lots of sports.
For example:
I hate the Monday night football commentators, because they talk about the stupidest shit. Often commentators don't have the best understanding of the game and there will always be the hardcore fans are more knowledgeable then they are. However, they make up a very small percentage of the viewers.
A lot of the people I know who enjoy and watch the commentaries are people who just enjoy watching Starcraft and glad that there is English attached to it. A lot of them don't post here, or anywhere else, but they visit the community for news just the same.
Personally, I rarely watch the english commentaries because I watch live and don't go back to watch games again. When I do, they are good enough I download them so that i can watch them whenever I feel like rewatching them.
In short, they might not be perfect, but that can't be expected. They are contributing to the community and it just so happens that the prominent members of the community are the ones most likely to know more about the game. A lot of watchers don't know everything about the game, they don't watch to be hardcore fans. They watch for entertainment.
I'd have more to add, but I need to leave for class.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Yes, but there's a big difference between casting toward an audience with a lower level of understanding and casting incorrectly. A good number of the things Zulu identifies in his criticisms are not flexible, as in they are simple enough points that can be explained to either audience but are either misinterpreted or misexplained by the casters.
It's OK, nobody expects people to be perfect, because a lot of the MNF commentators say a lot of stupid crap too, but it's not like the non-hardcore players wouldn't understand better explanations.
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Diggity
Much went one base reaver hanbang rush. That is a lot different than going FE robo before stargate or templar archive. There can be no logic behind FE robo unless it's vs a hanbang hydra rush, however a one base reaver rush is an early push that attempts to kill the zerg before his lair tech, lurker/muta is out. This is again, pretty basic protoss build order knowledge.
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EPT
