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Much went one base reaver hanbang rush. That is a lot different than going FE robo before stargate or templar archive. There can be no logic behind FE robo unless it's vs a hanbang hydra rush, however a one base reaver rush is an early push that attempts to kill the zerg before his lair tech, lurker/muta is out. This is again, pretty basic protoss build order knowledge.
I think this is simply the wrong vid then. Again I cant see these from work so I cant tell which game is which. I figured the last link was wrong since the map was python (so rare to FE).
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...And to think all of this could have been avoided with a simple disclaimer.
"Before I begin this commentary, I would like to throw out there that I consider my understanding of starcraft to range at about "x".
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...And to think all of this could have been avoided with a simple disclaimer.
"Before I begin this commentary, I would like to throw out there that I consider my understanding of starcraft to range at about "x".
Honestly considering some of the comments I'm not sure that would have helped.
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why r u people complaining about the quality and that its not "tl.net standard", they dont do it in the nick of tl.net, they just ve a thread here to get a wider audience and to provide something what they do for fun, i mean...if i dont like listening to britney spears i dont ve to ...right ?
went from a childish wc3 community straight into an old community which is ...not that much different :<(
oh btw, u guys r doing the ascension thing too or ? listened to the dissy group and stuff, u guys should really stop hyping those players every minute, telling one time that they r so good players is ok, but doing it 40 times is kinda annoying :<)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 25 2008 03:39 Klaz wrote:
Right. clearing the air. Stick to the objective and all that....
So here are my objective refutations of the first 15-20 or so points made by zulu in his first commentary. You're welcome to agree/disagree debate endlessly whatever. My original post in my blog still stands as to you motivation despite your claims to the contrary I remain suspect...anyways..
You say you want to point out primarily mistakes. Well there is a difference between mistakes and opinion. You wanted a factual argument so lets have a factual argument.
I think you made an offhand remark about there being 100 mistakes. So obviously to prove you're point you had to find them. I think this has lead you to clutch at straws and try and find issues where there aren't any. Many of your points are semantical in nature and matters of opinion. Also, a lot of the things you have issue with are not in fact mistakes at all but just not "interesting enough for you," which is fine. You don't find it interesting. Other people do. The fact you don't is less interesting than anything else.
Lastly a lot of your points seem to be based on the assumption that only players above a certain "STANDARD" watch or enjoy starcraft pro-vods. At this point I'll remind you that even Tasteless points out very basic and mundane things that are STANDARD and OBVIOUS because he recognises that they are not STANDARD and OBVIOUS to everyone who might be watching the game. That being said, here is a detailed rebuttal of the "mistakes"
So here are the first 45:
[quote]- 2:06, "wow very interesting jaedong just took the min only expansion" why is that interesting? there was a probe at jaedong's natural.
Is this a starcraft mistake? Or is it just your opinion that it's not interesting? Can you be certain it's not an interesting fact to everyone else listening? I think it is interesting for many reasons. It can change the game entirely. The 3'o clock expansion is a lot more vulnerable than his natural expo, especially early game. Sunkens placed at it may not be enough to defend the natural, and consequently the main. The zerg might be planning on going 3 hatch anyway, but this forces them to be more spread out. [/quote]
This is wrong because that min-only is not at all vulnerable. Every zerg takes both their nat and that expansion at least when a protoss FEs. The only other response is a hydra break, and in that situation, the second nat is never vulnerable because the zerg has a bunch of hydralisks. Every zerg takes this expansion before the protoss moves out on Blue Storm. This is something you should know, but don't. At any rate, the reason jaedong took it before his nat is because Bisu's probe was blocking his expansion at his nat. There is no risk at all in taking that mineral-only first.
[quote]- 2:30, any decent toss knows to nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch, it doesn't leave them "vulnerable" whatsoever.
It's still a very valid question. Maybe not to you with your "advanced knowledge" but a lot of people listening may not have that knowledge, so it's a good point nevertheless to clarify for people listening. [/quote]
I honestly doubt you knew that Bisu was 100% safe. If I'm wrong and you did know that already, and you really were trying to point it out to potentially new players, then you should have stated that Bisu is safe and given the reason. This is a commentating mistake in that something so obvious doesn't need to be called into question. You're wasting time and making people who already know Bisu is 100% safe (which accounts for probably 90% of your audience) listen to something that basically everyone knows. That's bad.
[quote]- 2:34, Jaedong doesn't need to scout with a drone he knows 99% Bisu will fast expand, you simply can't go one base on blue storm because of choke.
99% is not 100%. So you're saying there is no chance of any sort of a rush build or a proxy gateway or anything at all ingenous or different on blue storm? It always must be a fast expand? In hindsight, yes that's what he did do. [/quote]
Zerg players all over the place neglect drone scouting on blue storm. This is because the overlord reaches their opponents base at a time that allows them to see whether the protoss is fast expanding or not, and if the protoss isn't, the zerg has time to make zerglings. A drone scout against a professional Protoss on Blue Storm is pretty unnecessary. As zulu said, you simply cannot do some sort of 1gate tech build on Blue Storm, because you will inevitably get your shit wrecked. That means is a protoss doesn't FE he is proxy gating or two-gating. Either way, an overlord will see it in time. Things like this are incredibly map-specific and you don't seem to differentiate between maps in this regard.
[quote]- 2:39, "Jaedong will probably opt for a third hatchery anyway" Not probably, definitely
This is hindsight talking. And clutching at straws. An arguement of semantics... probably/definately. The point is that the most likely thing is he would get a 3rd hatchery here and this was pointed out. But unless you happen to be a mind reader you cannot guarentee it 100%. There is always a small chance that the player can do something different.[/quote]
No. Given Jaedong's opening and the fact that his second hatchery went to his mineral-only, there is no chance that he is not going to place his third hatchery at his nat. Literally no chance. Even a zergling break attempt needs a third hatchery, and that hatchery will go at jaedong's nat.
[quote]- 3:03, "no toss can seem to do the build fast enough" what does that mean? every toss does the same build order, Bisu does it better because he harasses better, macros and micros better.
Maybe this is a language barrier problem? Isn't that exactly what he is saying? That Bisu is the most effective at it. That he gets the combo going in time to counter the zerg player when most other protoss players are not able to do so. Again this is nit picking on language or semantics. Nothing fundamentally wrong was said here.[/quote]
There is indeed something fundamentally wrong here. Bisu's strength lies in his inhuman multitask and the sense of timing he uses to decide when to switch to a large ground army. Any protoss at like C level can execute the first 8 minutes of Bisu's signature build without flaws, and certainly any professional protoss can. Saying that Bisu does the build 'faster' than any other protoss is flat-out wrong and not at all what allows him to be so effective.
[quote]- 3:07, again, nexus before forge is the STANDARD build vs 12 hatch, it has nothing to do with how good Bisu is. zero
there was no comment made about nexus before forge at 3:07. Are you just repeating this point you supposedly already made because you don't have enough points?[/quote]
Get over yourself
[quote]- 3:45, quoted roughly "one of the hallmarks of a great player is to keep his defense to a minimum" klazart makes that comment after seeing only one cannon. Bisu only built one cannon because he has his probe scout to see how many lings Jaedong has built and whether they are going for Bisu's base or not, it's very basic scouting that any decent foreign toss knows how to do.
This is a highly highly subjective opinion. Did we just not see a game where a protoss player built 7 photon cannons vs Nada? Okay fine, it was vs T. But to say that "any decent foreign toss does this" is making a very general statement. Even if they do? So what? There are a lot of ppl who watch our vods that might not know this. Maybe it's not "in depth" enough for you, but for you to claim it's "wrong" is really stretching it. It's my opinion that the best players do keep defenses to a minimum and always tread the line, savior and bisu do it. I don't know how many foreign players do it or not though they should be doing it. Maybe this wasn't a perfect example of that but it was still pertinent enough to illustrate the point.[/quote]
Zulu is correct in that any decent toss can determine the required number of cannons with a probe scout. Bisu isn't treading a line with that cannon, he isn't taking a risk. He's exercising caution. While it is true that being cost-effective is desirable, small things like this are common to a massive base of players, not just elite professionals. It's not a "hallmark of a great player", so to say.
[quote]#10 - 3:55 - 4:17, Klazart pulls out a question straight from his ass, which was basically "do you think bisu went nexus before forge because he's adapting to jaedong's new zvp style he used vs stork?"... no man, for the 3rd time he went nexus before forge cuz jaedong 12 hatched.
this point I can concede, it was a bit of a superficial question. Nevertheless, putting nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch is by DEFINITION adapting your strategy according to what the opponent is doing. [/quote]
If you're going to concede, don't argue. The question was, "is Bisu using this build because of what Jaedong showed against Stork". No, absolutely not. Bisu's entire modus operandi against Zerg is to control the game from start to finish. His nexus-first build was in response to 12hatch, but it could be ANYONE's 12hatch. Since Bisu plays to his multitasking strength to control the game flow, and his powerful FE build to keep him safe from whatever the Zerg throws at him, it would be incorrect to assume that Bisu would change anything just because Jaedong beat Stork.
[quote]- 4:22, delaying 2nd hatch has nothing to do with when lings gonna come out, only thing that affects when lings come out is when zerg builds his pool.
It has everything to do with it. If the zerg is waiting till after he gets the hatch down before he puts his pool it can delay for a second or to. It can be a simple issue of micro, if nothing else. It may not have an effect every time against every player but it can have an effect. Secondly and more importantly, it was said very clearly "plus he had that probe there so he knew when the lings were coming"[/quote]
Again, you're wrong. A hatchery is 300 minerals and a spawning pool is 200. A slight delay makes no difference to when the zerglings come out. If the zerg was somehow stalled for long enough to accumulate 200 extra minerals, his pool would go down before his hatchery. With any 12hatch attempt, the pool comes at the same time regardless of how much trouble you had laying your hatchery.
[quote]- 4:26, Jaedong never built six lings at start.
Okay fine. He forgot or missed in the heat of the commentary that jaedong hadn't built six lings throuhgout. But on the fly it was a decent guess that he might have. Regardless the point isn't the lings coming or not coming.... the point is that he had the info to know when they would be coming and therefore could play accordingly.[/quote]
You really ought to be able to tell whether Jaedong has six lings or not. Commentating isn't hard.
[quote]- 4:28, "I think what's really interesting is Bisu only has a single cannon down." That's very standard when protoss sees zerg only builds two zerglings at start, not very interesting.
Again subjective. Not very interesting to who? The fact that his game play is so precise is an interesting fact. Maybe not to "uber leet pros" who do it automatically, but certainly to people who watch for fun or entertaiment or maybe don't play at that level.[/quote]
Don't act like this. The way you said it is indicative of non-standard play. You sounded impressed by his genius as he plodded along with his single cannon. Every protoss makes one cannon if the zerg only makes two zerglings. Yes, Bisu knew exactly how many lings Jaedong had.
[quote]- 5:15, the Stork vs Jaedong game, no one thinks the cannons were placed badly, they were placed around stork's nexus and all were able to hit Jaedong's mutalisks. Stork losing his corsairs very poorly and not getting enough cannons were his main mistakes.
More subjective opinion and nit picking. How do you know no one things that? Have you read every single opinion in every single starcraft community about that particular game? Maybe some ppl did blame (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant here) the cannon placement. Obviously Diggity read it somewhere or he wouldn't have said it. You say it was poor micro by stork and not enough cannons. Some people feel it was more down to jaedong's superior micro. Sure there may have been other factors involved, but diggity was just making a quick point about the game, and obviously we couldn't cover every single facet of it.[/quote]
What's this garbage? Trying to tell Zulu that maybe someone somewhere said it so its a valid point to make? Let me spell it out for you, then: Stork's cannons were NOT misplaced. In fact, they were placed very well. Stork's mistake was letting the scourge give chase on his corsairs away from his cannons. Jaedong's mutalisks beat the corsairs back to the cannons, and thus took all of the hits. From there, there is no way that Stork can kill those mutalisks, and there is no way for Stork to save his corsairs. This was a small mistake from Stork that was maximized by Jaedong. There was nothing wrong with the cannons.
[quote]- 5:15, again something very standard, when you attack protoss with mutalisks of course you send the mutalisks first then scourges to target corsairs, it's not something only Jaedong can do. Only reason why Stork lost his corsair was because he didn't attempt to dodge the scourges.
How subjective is this also? What do you mean ofc? Not every player in the world has the timing and micro to pull off what Jaedong did. The proof is in the pudding that we don't see it happening so often in pro games where a protoss' fleet get's owned in that manner. Jaedong's play may not have been the only factor but it was certainly one of them[/quote]
The reason we don't see Protoss lose like that more often is that in most cases the protoss doesn't move his corsairs away from his base until he has a larger amount than Stork had. Stork moved them out of his main prematurely, and found too many scourge to handle. It was over from there, and a lot of pro zergs would have capitalized the same way. Yes, the attack was excellently handled by Jaedong, but Stork's mistake allowed the opportunity, and Jaedong isn't the only guy who would have recognized it.
[quote]All these things that are "standard" that I'm naming, they're not just from my perspective, when I play D+ tosses on iccup they know to go nexus before forge when they see 12 hatch.
So only D+ tosses watch starcraft vods. Right that makes sense now.[/quote]
This is TL.net, not the battle.net forum. 95% of the people at this site know they can make a nexus if they scout a zerg 12hatching soon enough.
[quote]- 5:17, pretty obvious he had stargate.
nonsense. Because a day or two after this there was a game where a player went for the robo bay first. So it does happen. But hey it's easy to watch the vod come back later and go "ofc there's a stargate". There may be a high chance of one, but until you see it you can never be 100% sure in starcraft what a player will do. [/quote]
No. There was a 100% chance Bisu would build a stargate after his cybernetics core. You don't recognize key signs as to how the game is progressing, which means you missed this. Bisu's FE uses a stargate literally 100% of the time, and in the situation he was in, Stargate + Robo is the ideal combination. You don't recognize what that situation is, so you don't know that. There was no chance Bisu would go archive+robo that game. No chance at all. You keep saying that you can't be 100% sure until you see it in StarCraft. This isn't true. The games you're commentating on are professional games, which means the players make correct build decisions. Again, given the situation, there was no chance of Bisu not building a Stargate.
[quote]- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.[/quote]
First of all, Jaedong is a fucking professional. He doesn't succumb to such simple mental blocks. If he did, he wouldn't be as good as he is, that's a fact. There is no 'psychological effect'. Jaedong made 2 zerglings to kill the scouting probe, and was using every available resource to get drones and his spire and den. His den was exactly for the purpose Zulu says it was, as a measure against corsair because his spire isn't up in time against Bisu's nexus-first build. It has nothing to do with Bisu being 'more aggressive', and if anything, STORK is more aggressive. He routinely attacks with ground units much earlier than Bisu does. You should know this, and if you did, you wouldn't have made that comment.
[quote]- 7:50, "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu within his natural with just zerglings." That's because Bisu has one zealot and one dragoon -_-
Doesn't change anything. The fact still remains, that Jaedong has got his units positioned correctly and he is restricting his opponent and not allowing him to get any ground units out. Bisu does have a reaver, two zealots and a dragoon at this point. The above statement is not incorrect in anyway.[/quote]
This is another commentating error. You're speaking like you have no idea whats going on. "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu at his natural with just zerglings"? You're saying that like you're surprised, or that its due to some amazing ability of Jaedong's. It's not. You don't say "Jaedong seems to be able to" blah blah blah, you say "Jaedong can contain Bisu in his natural because Bisu's build progression only allows him a single zealot and dragoon at this time". Then you talk about how that affects Jaedong's decisions, most notably, the sick amount of drones he was producing. What you said is like saying "Jaedong seems to be able to make a lot of drones" five minutes into the game after Bisu had already built a Nexus first. You don't just point out incredibly obvious things and then neglect to talk about them, that's bad commentating.
[quote]#20 - 8:10, "Jaedong interesting does not go for mutalisks but hydralisks." Again that's not very interesting at all, Jaedong was using all of his larvas when spire was almost done.
You really cannot get more subjective than this. Why is it not interesting? Larva or not, he clearly made a choice. That choice does clearly affect the game. When I made the comment he had a lot of scourges up and running and trying to kill corsairs in bisu's base, so he could have made more mutalisks by the time that comment was made if he had chosen to.[/quote]
To someone with a strong knowledge of starcraft, counting larva is the biggest indication of whether a Zerg will make a group of mutas or just scourge and hydralisks. Jaedong wasn't collecting his larva at all, which means he is not going to make a mutalisk harass group. Again, to someone with a strong knowledge of starcraft, this is not interesting at all. Rather, it just highlights your own lack of knowledge.
[quote]- 8:24, "This is entirely uncharacteristic of Bisu" It's very common when going reaver/sair to take the 3rd gas expansion first then attack. Bisu at that point has at the most two reavers.
Very common for WHO? Diggity is talking specifically about BISU here. He's watched a lot of Bisu's games and he is talking about what he thinks bisu is likely to do. Maybe he should do it or not. Maybe something else is standard. Whatever. This is what Diggity thinks Bisu does on a regular basis, so him not doing it is uncharacteristic.[/quote]
It's not uncharacteristic of Bisu. Watch more games. Zulu is right, in most cases a protoss will take another gas before attacking with his reaver/sair.
[quote]- 9:19, Klazart asked if Jaedong should've gone mutalisks to maintain air superiority and you said it was an interesting question, maybe you were just being polite I don't know but to the audience that is a very dumb question as there is no way he could keep up with early upgraded +1 attack two stargate corsairs with mutalisks off of two gases. So no, he never in a million years should've gone mutalisks.
To which audience? Oh I forgot, Iccup players.
My hands kinda gave up after this...
[/QUOTE]
Zulu is right again, this is a really stupid question. Going mutalisks at any point of this particular game would have been utter suicide. You should know the game well enough to not ask a question like that, but you don't.
You don't know the game nearly as well as you think you do, suck it up. Look at Diggity, he didn't like Zulu's tone either, but he's taken what he can out of the criticism anyway, and he recognizes that there are weak points to his commentating. Diggity has reacted very maturely to zulu's actions and demonstrates a genuine willingness to improve. You're still just acting like a kid.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The things I've discussed are either hard facts of StarCraft or examples of bad commentating. You will still probably try to disagree with them, but you will be in error. You should recognize what it means when someone like Hot_Bid or myself agrees with criticisms on your game knowledge. StarCraft isn't a game of opinions. You ARE wrong, but all of this is here for you to learn from. If you can put aside your attitude you will find yourself able to become a much better commentator in the future.
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I used to play SC a lot. For a few years I didn't have enough time to play often so I went away from the game. Then about 6 months ago I saw the English commentaries on Youtube and it got me back into the game. Now I read this forum daily because of them.
This is my take on the events:
Firstly; TL.Net has a right to say the commentaries are of a low standard. The commentators asked for clarity and Zulu makes some very good points.. (although then he randomly apologies for no reason).
But then Klazart (who i'm a big fan of btw), is offended when really I don't know why he gives a shit and then some other TL.Net members get quite rude and this whole thing blows out of proportion.
Why the commentators take so much offense and why some members of TL.Net have to be so rude I do not know.
Diggity is 100% right when he says that their commentaries cater to newer players, if TL alienates those players then eventually you will die out, so it's in your interest to support these guys and provide constructive criticism.
Big deal Klazart isn't a C+ ICCUP player and therefore he misses a few things; he is exciting to listen to and he DOES give insight into what the players are doing.
Now after a few months of playing a lot I reached a high level once more and listening to the commentaries I began to notice a lot of build order and strategic details that the commentators missed. However, I still listen to the commentaries purely for the entertainment value and play by play commentary because I think it makes it more entertaining.
What I'm saying is it is in both your interests to get along.
The commentators bring more people to TL.Net which increases your advertisement and keeps the community fresh and interesting.
In return TL.Net provides information to the commentators so that they can learn more about the game and about the players personalities.
Everyones a winner!
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Osaka27102 Posts
On January 25 2008 08:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I used to play SC a lot. For a few years I didn't have enough time to play often so I went away from the game. Then about 6 months ago I saw the English commentaries on Youtube and it got me back into the game. Now I read this forum daily because of them.
This is my take on the events:
Firstly; TL.Net has a right to say the commentaries are of a low standard. The commentators asked for clarity and Zulu makes some very good points.. (although then he randomly apologies for no reason).
But then Klazart (who i'm a big fan of btw), is offended when really I don't know why he gives a shit and then some other TL.Net members get quite rude and this whole thing blows out of proportion.
Why the commentators take so much offense and why some members of TL.Net have to be so rude I do not know.
Diggity is 100% right when he says that their commentaries cater to newer players, if TL alienates those players then eventually you will die out, so it's in your interest to support these guys and provide constructive criticism.
Big deal Klazart isn't a C+ ICCUP player and therefore he misses a few things; he is exciting to listen to and he DOES give insight into what the players are doing.
Now after a few months of playing a lot I reached a high level once more and listening to the commentaries I began to notice a lot of build order and strategic details that the commentators missed. However, I still listen to the commentaries purely for the entertainment value and play by play commentary because I think it makes it more entertaining.
What I'm saying is it is in both your interests to get along.
The commentators bring more people to TL.Net which increases your advertisement and keeps the community fresh and interesting.
In return TL.Net provides information to the commentators so that they can learn more about the game and about the players personalities.
Everyones a winner!
This makes a lot of sense to me. That whole idea that new players were being "led astray" was fucking garbage anyways.
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I'd just like to quickly comment on things like this:
On January 25 2008 08:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
No. There was a 100% chance Bisu would build a stargate after his cybernetics core. You don't recognize key signs as to how the game is progressing, which means you missed this. Bisu's FE uses a stargate literally 100% of the time, and in the situation he was in, Stargate + Robo is the ideal combination. You don't recognize what that situation is, so you don't know that. There was no chance Bisu would go archive+robo that game. No chance at all. You keep saying that you can't be 100% sure until you see it in StarCraft. This isn't true. The games you're commentating on are professional games, which means the players make correct build decisions. Again, given the situation, there was no chance of Bisu not building a Stargate.
My issue here is that if every pro player does a standard build order every time this leaves no room for the innovation in strategies that we see in the evolution of the pro-starcraft scene.
Yes, Bisu has always in the past used a stargate but maybe he has a crazy new idea this time that will change the face of PvZ. I think it is hard to deny that this could and does happen though I could be wrong as I am not a great player nor really heavily into the pro-scene.
Even in the case that this is extremely unlikely to happen it is far more exciting to imagine that one of the players might be up to something completly new and thrilling for the first time ever in my opinion.
As Diggity says in practically all his commentaries now "Don't take anything for granted." or something like that. Don't close your mind maaannn~ ^^
Edit: I also think I have learned a lot from their commentaries and have improved because of it. Not to even a C- rank but I don't really have much time to play anyways, but thats beside the point. Though their comments may not be 100% perfect or even right all the time I think their strategic basics are good. The issue is that one person's basics are another's advanced tactics.
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To be honest, if you don't like it, don't watch it. When you watch some piece of shit TV show, you change the channel.
Lets say you watch baseball on TV. A million people watch the same game. The announcer constantly explains a bunch of crap that everyone already knows, and then talks about how to swing the ball. The players on the field do not go whining to the announcer that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. The 99.9% of people who are clueless all slightly understand baseball a little better, and enjoy it a bit more. Perhaps some go out and buy a baseball glove to try and play themselves, and have some fun. The 0.1% of people who are baseball pros disagree with the announcer and watch the game anyway, because the game is enjoyable and they love it.
Klaz, Diggity and Mole are doing the SC Community a huge favor by dedicating their time and effort into improving the numbers, quality and enjoyment of everyone, and there is absolutely NO reason that anyone should be bashing them because of it, after all, you're not paying them to do this.
If you don't like it, change the channel. Don't waste your time being mean for no real reason.
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I agree with a lot of what Klive5ive says.
Some of the people providing criticism are ridiculously harsh in contrast of the fact that some of the issues cited were purely situations and really don't have anything to do with why people watch the commentaries (though still valid criticism).
Of their viewer base, I'm sure a large percentage of them cite some of the issues and criticism provided herein to be valid, true, and necessary. I've watched far too many of their English commentaries, even though I also watch the games live. I watch the English Commentaries primarily because their added commentary is entertaining enough (regardless of accurracy) so that I find it thoroughly enjoyable to watch something that I've already scene.
Sure there are times where one of them will be wondering when the player is going to get their Stargate 30 seconds after they showed the Stargate. Or for instance, they say that they did one thing for a reason they obviously didn't.
Mistakes happen. If I spoke korean (or atleast understood it well) then I would not need these english commentaries. As it stands though there is not a single other source (aside from the 3-5 people whom post english commentaries on youtube) for a continual source of commentary in my native language. Sure Ascension, Sure Chill's execellent analysis of his own play. But there is no other place where I can expect English commentaries on Professional level games that have been played within the last week.
Sure, they've been commentating for less than a year... It's no different than only having played Starcraft less than a year. Improvement will occur. Yes, this feedback is essential to their improvement and they should and most likely will admit that. Feedback however is a personal thing when talking directly to eachother regardless of how impersonal you try to present it. As such each person providing feedback to eachother (feedback of feedback ect) should treat, and present their feedback in a more personal tone. Why? This prevents anyone from being offended, it also makes the feedback much more pleasant on the ears(eyes). Genuine, quality feedback is a hard to come by and I'm sure the commentators would appreciate it.
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
If you want to argue the semantics of "personal" you can, but I won't be joining the argument. I call it personal because they the commentators personally spend a lot of time recording their voice and their personal opinions on the aspects of a game for the entertainment purposes of their 1000(s) of subscribers on youtube. Not for the avid iccup competition, nor the english speaking top tier players. They make it for the mass of the english speaking noobs.
Perhaps by asking for feedback on a site geared towards the top-tier of play they made their real mistake. But in reality, I think it was a smart move for them. If their true intention is to improve.
That aside, I'd like to challenge (just for comparison albeit vain or not) anyone fluent in Korean to translate and do the same thing Zulu did to their commentary. Sure you won't find as many mistakes the point is YOU WILL FIND MISTAKES. You will find mistakes even with the fact that those commentators are getting paid for it, devote a much greater percentage of their time, and have a lot of experience doing it. They are also much more organized with each commentator having a specific role, insight, and purpose.
In short -- Don't be discouraged by their feedback, and ignore those that are bad mannered. If they genuinely want to provide good feedback then they should have absolutely no problem having manners.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback
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Godamn just leave Diggity alone again. I mean he was fine and I loved listening to his stuff but now this...why make a big deal out of it?? He is just doing this for fun, not professionally
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I think there is a lot of elitism in the Starcraft world, it is what kept me lurking here for so long before i actually decided to register. I do not think that I am the only one who feels this way.
I would like to extend my thanks and congratulations to Klaz, Diggty, and Moletrap, not because they're the most knowledgeable Starcraft people in the history of time, but rather because they go out of their way to volunteer to provide me with seemingly endless entertainment, while also succeeding in making starcraft programing much more accessible and fun to watch for people who are newer to the scene like myself.
While some constructive criticism is present (in some cases well structured and thought out) i feel that this thread (and the other blog thread by Klaz, and indeed forum threads that spawned these subsequent blog threads) contain an unnecessarily high degree of trolling. I'm sure even the professional SC commentators make 'bad' calls from time to time. I certainly feel as if commentators make 'bad' calls from time to time with regards to other professional sports. (Can anyone who speaks Korean verify this for me with regards to starcraft? hehe)
Anyway, thanks again gents, don't let the trolls get you down, they'll probably never go away. However, those of us who appreciate your efforts vastly outnumber the trolls from what i can tell.  And those who don't appreciate the commentaries can do themselves a favor and just stop listening to them, right?
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On January 25 2008 10:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback
Well... I agree with your feedback....
I guess my real point was... from some perspectives it is inevitable in this currently standing environment that the feedback has a certain personal charge to it. You're feedback isn't any different, in that sense. You however portray the situation very well and I think the feedback you have provided is among the best within this thread.
I suppose, really i'm just saying that directly calling klazart a defensive pussy while also attempting to provide feedback is a very bad route for both constructive criticism and feedback. I would also posit that it also has the potential to inhibit improvement. Thinking Klazart is a definsive pussy and directly telling him such while under the guise of saying "do this" are two very different things.
I personally don't think that Klazart is being a defensive pussy, i feel he is simply trying to narrow down the specifics and really understand the situation. Defensive? Of course he is, anyone would be. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It has to do with conveying the proper message properly and acting as a catalyst for improvement. As their is most certainly room for English commentary within the foreign scene and the casual scene.
Klaz's response while resistant was nothing but expected and normal considering the original critique of his works. Zulu's feedback was initially a bit over the top in tone and aspect. Klaz's commentary demograph is not top tier players or players of your or zulu's caliber. Sure, i understand it spawned from some discussion between diggity and zulu... You say defensive pussy, and I say completely standard play... Simply a necessary step in providing true quality feedback and it shouldn't discourage anyone from continuing this debate.
Would you disagree FakeSteve that trolls and people whom have no desire to truly sit down to critique, point out fatal mistakes (not so many menial ones), and assist otherwise do not necessarily have a place within this blog?
Simply put, after the initial hurdle of WTF they don't like my shit (or WTF his shit sucks).... There is a lot of room for true discussion on improvement because diggity and klazart both show a lot of dedication, potential and desire to fill this empty space within the english oriented community.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 11:05 Motiva wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 10:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback Well... I agree with your feedback.... I guess my real point was... from some perspectives it is inevitable in this currently standing environment that the feedback has a certain personal charge to it. You're feedback isn't any different, in that sense. You however portray the situation very well and I think the feedback you have provided is among the best within this thread. I suppose, really i'm just saying that directly calling klazart a defensive pussy while also attempting to provide feedback is a very bad route for both constructive criticism and feedback. I would also posit that it also has the potential to inhibit improvement. Thinking Klazart is a definsive pussy and directly telling him such while under the guise of saying "do this" are two very different things. I personally don't think that Klazart is being a defensive pussy, i feel he is simply trying to narrow down the specifics and really understand the situation. Defensive? Of course he is, anyone would be. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It has to do with conveying the proper message properly and acting as a catalyst for improvement. As their is most certainly room for English commentary within the foreign scene and the casual scene. Klaz's response while resistant was nothing but expected and normal considering the original critique of his works. Zulu's feedback was initially a bit over the top in tone and aspect. Klaz's commentary demograph is not top tier players or players of your or zulu's caliber. Sure, i understand it spawned from some discussion between diggity and zulu... You say defensive pussy, and I say completely standard play... Simply a necessary step in providing true quality feedback and it shouldn't discourage anyone from continuing this debate. Would you disagree FakeSteve that trolls and people whom have no desire to truly sit down to critique, point out fatal mistakes (not so many menial ones), and assist otherwise do not necessarily have a place within this blog? Simply put, after the initial hurdle of WTF they don't like my shit (or WTF his shit sucks).... There is a lot of room for true discussion on improvement because diggity and klazart both show a lot of dedication, potential and desire to fill this empty space within the english oriented community.
I would agree that mindless trolling really doesn't have a place in this, be it for or against.
The last bit, I would say that's true for Diggity.
Klazart on the other hand.... The first post I made on this matter was very polite but it reinforced the notion that Klazart's knowledge of StarCraft is lacking. It was put in a way that wasn't offensive, and there were many points he could have accepted which would have been a step in the right direction. Instead, he chose to jump all over me for making a snide remark to a completely different person, and launched into this thing about how I'm a disgrace to TL. Besides the fact that you do not say that to staff members under any circumstances, Klazart has shown no willingness to improve or even any admittance that his knowledge of StarCraft is less than good. Just dismissive statements that we don't know how hard it is to commentate.
As such, props to Diggity for taking all of this in stride as it should be taken, and fuck you Klazart for being a complete shithead.
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tbh, what's this entire argument about? diggity, klaz, moletrap and these other guys provide commentary that wasn't really there b4 in this quantity...if anything, they probably bring more players to the game and provide entertainment.
sure, all commentators are in the process of learning, but ffs, I enjoy the commentaries no matter the skill level they cater to.
there aren't ENOUGH english commentators out there...so I don't think it's a good idea to attack the only ones that are around...sure, criticism is good, but some criticism i've read around here has been very MALICIOUS in nature...
whatever, keep on commentating Diggity, take the criticism, keep learning, n all that good stufF!
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What ya'll really need is Artosis to help ya'll out. He understands the game and is a decent commentator to boot.
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I actually think that klazart's commentaries are very insightful and added a lot of value to games when I started following the proscene. How he is as a person I have not much idea, but I haven't found another english-speaking commentator who I'd rather listen to.
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United States1865 Posts
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked, because they provide entertaining play-by-play of what is happening, along with some insight as to the players themselves. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them.
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EPT
