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Hong Kong20321 Posts
diggity (or any other english commentators) fighting.
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Diggity
I apologize for stirring up this general negative attitude towards your commentaries. I'm glad you found the 2nd feedback helpful. The way I see it, the best way for you guys to improve is not by listening to more feedback but by playing more starcraft to deepen your understanding of the game. Your response that because you guys never claimed to be professionals, is no excuse for making commentaries that exhibit the knowledge of people way below the standard of the average Teamliquid, the best foreign starcraft community progaming fan.
Part of the negativity and flaming also stems from how Klazart reacted to the criticism, he chose not to respond to my strategical feedback but to my tone, my personal contributions to starcraft, and my general behavior on this forum. All of which have nothing to do with my original feedback towards the quality of his commentary. Now that I have apologized, I hope you guys can also step back and realize that you guys need to improve your knowledge of starcraft in order to make decent commentaries. I hope you guys can ignore the negativity and take the criticisms in stride. Looking forward to more.
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I agree playing more starcraft is the ultimate solution to the problem. The issue lies in finding time to do so and finding a comfortable venue to do so as well.
Your response that because you guys never claimed to be professionals, is no excuse for making commentaries that exhibit the knowledge of people way below the standard of the average Teamliquid, the best foreign starcraft community progaming fan.
This is the sort of thing I worry about though for the future of teamliquid. This really reeks of ivory tower to me like somehow you are all being lowered by our commentaries or something.
I really think it would suit the community better to put their ICCUP ranking aside and generally take a humble attitude, especially towards those re-entering and starting up the game.
I have seen this sort of thing rising more more lately as people are steadily streaming back either due to sc2 or general interest in Esports.
I feel like this is the largest divide in the current starcraft community (returners vs vets) and unless we deal with it now it will only get worse.
And unfortunately I have to say the ball is in the vets court on this one. You guys really should be more hands on rather than treating those who "have a lower iccup ranking" as though they were pariahs who stain your image or something.
Seriously to ignore/cut off new blood is the fastest way to die out. I feel like if TL doesn't get a grip on this they will be dead in short measure.
Now that I have apologized, I hope you guys can also step back and realize that you guys need to improve your knowledge of starcraft in order to make decent commentaries
I always think there is room to improve... no matter what but I feel like "decent commentaries" here is another stab.
I understand the commentaries have a lot of flaws, but they are still massively entertaining for a lot of people. I understand that entertaining = strategically accurate to many of the tl members but it does not for many of the viewers.
Ultimately I am more concerned with entertainment value for myself and others rather than strategic accuracy (otherwise I would watch it through first). This does not mean I refuse to improve, it simply means I am not ultimately pandering to the 8 year vet, I am pandering to the complete neophyte. I hope you all can understand this.
quoting myself elsewhere:
As soon as you said 8 rax I realized your point. Its ironic since when I did play I 8 raxed almost exclusively when I played terran (sometimes to actually 8 rax and other times just to kill the scout early and do something stupid silly like go 2 port wraith against protoss... yes I know thats a bad idea which is why I enjoyed doing it).
In this situation I assumed a depot was down off screen which was a terrible mistake.
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Well, the stuff you guys are commentating on are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard for how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means.
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Well, the stuff you guys are commentating about are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard as to how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means.
I would sort of compare this to football. Granted the arm chair viewer isn't going to be contributing as much as the former all star QB, but that doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute as far commentating goes.
TBH generally with my commentaries I was scared that if I got into the build orders things would end up feeling rock paper scissorsish and result in something stale.
I still fear that if I start paying explicit attention to build orders instead of passively noting it that things will start to feel stale.
What I have tried to emphasize instead is the players personalities and tendencies themselves. For example Upmagic's penchant for creative builds and Memory's (memories?) dedication to the drop.
However as a direct result of this I ended up in the bad habit of ignoring it outright even when it was critically significant.
Again I will chalk this up to move on and learn. Tonight I am suppose to do Orion v Jang bi. I will make an expressed effort to comment on the build orders in particular even though I chose this match specifically to highlight Orion's style.
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What's wrong with ivory tower? Did you just get the phrase off of Fox News?
People think that your work is trash and have every right to say so. If you are taken aback by people not liking your work, maybe you should pack up and leave. Otherwise, don't ask for them to apologize for their criticism and by defensive about your work- make your work better.
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In my opinion i think your commentaries are not bad, it's nice for me to watch a game and actually listen to someone who i can understand, okay maybe your are not a pro player but hell, neither am I and the other 95% of teamliquid people.
Well thats all, gL whit your future commentaries :D
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What's wrong with ivory tower? Did you just get the phrase off of Fox News?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower
If you don't see what is inherently wrong with ivory tower I worry deeply about the future.
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What's wrong? You do realize that most inventions and most of the advances in the modern world have stemmed from rigorous and difficult intellectual pursuits undertaken by very few people.
Maybe there's nothing arrogant about the ivory tower - rather it's the people that rail against it that should gain some humility and evaluate their own ignorance.
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On January 25 2008 02:49 Diggity wrote:Show nested quote +Well, the stuff you guys are commentating about are professional starcraft games, so I think there should be a standard as to how much knowledge about starcraft you guys must have before analyzing professional play, it's not elitest by any means. I would sort of compare this to football. Granted the arm chair viewer isn't going to be contributing as much as the former all star QB, but that doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute as far commentating goes. TBH generally with my commentaries I was scared that if I got into the build orders things would end up feeling rock paper scissorsish and result in something stale. I still fear that if I start paying explicit attention to build orders instead of passively noting it that things will start to feel stale. What I have tried to emphasize instead is the players personalities and tendencies themselves. For example Upmagic's penchant for creative builds and Memory's (memories?) dedication to the drop. However as a direct result of this I ended up in the bad habit of ignoring it outright even when it was critically significant. Again I will chalk this up to move on and learn. Tonight I am suppose to do Orion v Jang bi. I will make an expressed effort to comment on the build orders in particular even though I chose this match specifically to highlight Orion's style.
Ok I will make a list when you release it
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Right. clearing the air. Stick to the objective and all that....
So here are my objective refutations of the first 15-20 or so points made by zulu in his first commentary. You're welcome to agree/disagree debate endlessly whatever. My original post in my blog still stands as to you motivation despite your claims to the contrary I remain suspect...anyways..
You say you want to point out primarily mistakes. Well there is a difference between mistakes and opinion. You wanted a factual argument so lets have a factual argument.
I think you made an offhand remark about there being 100 mistakes. So obviously to prove you're point you had to find them. I think this has lead you to clutch at straws and try and find issues where there aren't any. Many of your points are semantical in nature and matters of opinion. Also, a lot of the things you have issue with are not in fact mistakes at all but just not "interesting enough for you," which is fine. You don't find it interesting. Other people do. The fact you don't is less interesting than anything else.
Lastly a lot of your points seem to be based on the assumption that only players above a certain "STANDARD" watch or enjoy starcraft pro-vods. At this point I'll remind you that even Tasteless points out very basic and mundane things that are STANDARD and OBVIOUS because he recognises that they are not STANDARD and OBVIOUS to everyone who might be watching the game. That being said, here is a detailed rebuttal of the "mistakes"
So here are the first 45:
- 2:06, "wow very interesting jaedong just took the min only expansion" why is that interesting? there was a probe at jaedong's natural.
Is this a starcraft mistake? Or is it just your opinion that it's not interesting? Can you be certain it's not an interesting fact to everyone else listening? I think it is interesting for many reasons. It can change the game entirely. The 3'o clock expansion is a lot more vulnerable than his natural expo, especially early game. Sunkens placed at it may not be enough to defend the natural, and consequently the main. The zerg might be planning on going 3 hatch anyway, but this forces them to be more spread out.
- 2:30, any decent toss knows to nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch, it doesn't leave them "vulnerable" whatsoever.
It's still a very valid question. Maybe not to you with your "advanced knowledge" but a lot of people listening may not have that knowledge, so it's a good point nevertheless to clarify for people listening.
- 2:34, Jaedong doesn't need to scout with a drone he knows 99% Bisu will fast expand, you simply can't go one base on blue storm because of choke.
99% is not 100%. So you're saying there is no chance of any sort of a rush build or a proxy gateway or anything at all ingenous or different on blue storm? It always must be a fast expand? In hindsight, yes that's what he did do.
- 2:39, "Jaedong will probably opt for a third hatchery anyway" Not probably, definitely
This is hindsight talking. And clutching at straws. An arguement of semantics... probably/definately. The point is that the most likely thing is he would get a 3rd hatchery here and this was pointed out. But unless you happen to be a mind reader you cannot guarentee it 100%. There is always a small chance that the player can do something different.
- 2:40, continued from last sentence "...so those lings won't be getting out too long after" what does getting a third hatchery have to do with lings?
- 3:03, "no toss can seem to do the build fast enough" what does that mean? every toss does the same build order, Bisu does it better because he harasses better, macros and micros better.
Maybe this is a language barrier problem? Isn't that exactly what he is saying? That Bisu is the most effective at it. That he gets the combo going in time to counter the zerg player when most other protoss players are not able to do so. Again this is nit picking on language or semantics. Nothing fundamentally wrong was said here.
- 3:07, again, nexus before forge is the STANDARD build vs 12 hatch, it has nothing to do with how good Bisu is. zero
there was no comment made about nexus before forge at 3:07. Are you just repeating this point you supposedly already made because you don't have enough points?
- 3:13, "it looks like he won't be going for a lot of lings after all, as you can see a couple eggs hatching there" what?
- 3:45, quoted roughly "one of the hallmarks of a great player is to keep his defense to a minimum" klazart makes that comment after seeing only one cannon. Bisu only built one cannon because he has his probe scout to see how many lings Jaedong has built and whether they are going for Bisu's base or not, it's very basic scouting that any decent foreign toss knows how to do.
This is a highly highly subjective opinion. Did we just not see a game where a protoss player built 7 photon cannons vs Nada? Okay fine, it was vs T. But to say that "any decent foreign toss does this" is making a very general statement. Even if they do? So what? There are a lot of ppl who watch our vods that might not know this. Maybe it's not "in depth" enough for you, but for you to claim it's "wrong" is really stretching it. It's my opinion that the best players do keep defenses to a minimum and always tread the line, savior and bisu do it. I don't know how many foreign players do it or not though they should be doing it. Maybe this wasn't a perfect example of that but it was still pertinent enough to illustrate the point.
#10 - 3:55 - 4:17, Klazart pulls out a question straight from his ass, which was basically "do you think bisu went nexus before forge because he's adapting to jaedong's new zvp style he used vs stork?"... no man, for the 3rd time he went nexus before forge cuz jaedong 12 hatched.
this point I can concede, it was a bit of a superficial question. Nevertheless, putting nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch is by DEFINITION adapting your strategy according to what the opponent is doing.
- 4:22, delaying 2nd hatch has nothing to do with when lings gonna come out, only thing that affects when lings come out is when zerg builds his pool.
It has everything to do with it. If the zerg is waiting till after he gets the hatch down before he puts his pool it can delay for a second or to. It can be a simple issue of micro, if nothing else. It may not have an effect every time against every player but it can have an effect. Secondly and more importantly, it was said very clearly "plus he had that probe there so he knew when the lings were coming"
- 4:26, Jaedong never built six lings at start.
Okay fine. He forgot or missed in the heat of the commentary that jaedong hadn't built six lings throuhgout. But on the fly it was a decent guess that he might have. Regardless the point isn't the lings coming or not coming.... the point is that he had the info to know when they would be coming and therefore could play accordingly.
- 4:28, "I think what's really interesting is Bisu only has a single cannon down." That's very standard when protoss sees zerg only builds two zerglings at start, not very interesting.
Again subjective. Not very interesting to who? The fact that his game play is so precise is an interesting fact. Maybe not to "uber leet pros" who do it automatically, but certainly to people who watch for fun or entertaiment or maybe don't play at that level.
- 5:15, the Stork vs Jaedong game, no one thinks the cannons were placed badly, they were placed around stork's nexus and all were able to hit Jaedong's mutalisks. Stork losing his corsairs very poorly and not getting enough cannons were his main mistakes.
More subjective opinion and nit picking. How do you know no one things that? Have you read every single opinion in every single starcraft community about that particular game? Maybe some ppl did blame (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant here) the cannon placement. Obviously Diggity read it somewhere or he wouldn't have said it. You say it was poor micro by stork and not enough cannons. Some people feel it was more down to jaedong's superior micro. Sure there may have been other factors involved, but diggity was just making a quick point about the game, and obviously we couldn't cover every single facet of it.
- 5:15, again something very standard, when you attack protoss with mutalisks of course you send the mutalisks first then scourges to target corsairs, it's not something only Jaedong can do. Only reason why Stork lost his corsair was because he didn't attempt to dodge the scourges.
How subjective is this also? What do you mean ofc? Not every player in the world has the timing and micro to pull off what Jaedong did. The proof is in the pudding that we don't see it happening so often in pro games where a protoss' fleet get's owned in that manner. Jaedong's play may not have been the only factor but it was certainly one of them
All these things that are "standard" that I'm naming, they're not just from my perspective, when I play D+ tosses on iccup they know to go nexus before forge when they see 12 hatch.
So only D+ tosses watch starcraft vods. Right that makes sense now.
- 5:17, pretty obvious he had stargate.
nonsense. Because a day or two after this there was a game where a player went for the robo bay first. So it does happen. But hey it's easy to watch the vod come back later and go "ofc there's a stargate". There may be a high chance of one, but until you see it you can never be 100% sure in starcraft what a player will do.
- 5:38, this is something very key you guys missed that I think as commentators you definitely should've pointed out. Bisu's core was rotating meaning he was researching +1 air which means Bisu will be getting a lot of corsairs and most likely a sair/reaver build. +1 sairs requires a lot less sairs to be invulnerable vs scourges.
Here is where live commenting is different from analysis after the fact. When you are talking and in the middle of a thought, it's easy to miss something like that, because you are already talking about something. But ya we missed it. It happens. This was a genuine mistake.
- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.
- 7:50, "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu within his natural with just zerglings." That's because Bisu has one zealot and one dragoon -_-
Doesn't change anything. The fact still remains, that Jaedong has got his units positioned correctly and he is restricting his opponent and not allowing him to get any ground units out. Bisu does have a reaver, two zealots and a dragoon at this point. The above statement is not incorrect in anyway.
#20 - 8:10, "Jaedong interesting does not go for mutalisks but hydralisks." Again that's not very interesting at all, Jaedong was using all of his larvas when spire was almost done.
You really cannot get more subjective than this. Why is it not interesting? Larva or not, he clearly made a choice. That choice does clearly affect the game. When I made the comment he had a lot of scourges up and running and trying to kill corsairs in bisu's base, so he could have made more mutalisks by the time that comment was made if he had chosen to.
- 8:24, "This is entirely uncharacteristic of Bisu" It's very common when going reaver/sair to take the 3rd gas expansion first then attack. Bisu at that point has at the most two reavers.
Very common for WHO? Diggity is talking specifically about BISU here. He's watched a lot of Bisu's games and he is talking about what he thinks bisu is likely to do. Maybe he should do it or not. Maybe something else is standard. Whatever. This is what Diggity thinks Bisu does on a regular basis, so him not doing it is uncharacteristic.
- 9:19, Klazart asked if Jaedong should've gone mutalisks to maintain air superiority and you said it was an interesting question, maybe you were just being polite I don't know but to the audience that is a very dumb question as there is no way he could keep up with early upgraded +1 attack two stargate corsairs with mutalisks off of two gases. So no, he never in a million years should've gone mutalisks.
To which audience? Oh I forgot, Iccup players.
My hands kinda gave up after this...
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I think its best to take klaz's list as a way to better improve feedback.
I actually liked the +1 air attack comment the most.
Not sure how I missed that and it seals the air for Bisu. Though (not being able to see the vod) I'm not sure that Jaedong could have spotted it out and inherently known that Bisu was committing anti-air, but its a pretty safe assumption (considering Bisu).
I definitely think that the implications of +1 air attack upgrade could generate an interesting indepth lengthy conversation.
Actually I wouldn't mind opinions on the subject right this moment... does anyone here feel like that was a miss que and that Bisu would have been better served opting else wise?
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Your response is precisely the thing that also ticks most of us off. Stop trying to defend yourself - people that know what they are talking about say your work needs improvement. You should try to figure out how to improve instead of being so pussy.
This sort of defensive behavior is akin to some newb on Bnet forums defending why fast Mind control is a valid strategy. Get over it.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Klaz, just for example, the comments on the nex before cannons or 1 cannon due to scouting probe, you can say things like:
"The standard practice for Protoss is to..."
This explains to both audiences fine.
"Protoss builds number of cannons relative to what their scouting probe sees. Bisu's probe is generally a lot better at staying alive and getting information than other P's, because his multitask ability allows it to take less hits early on."
There's a difference between explaining to an different audience and simply explaining wrongly.
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On January 25 2008 03:51 naventus wrote:
Your response is precisely the thing that also ticks most of us off. Stop trying to defend yourself - people that know what they are talking about say your work needs improvement. You should try to figure out how to improve instead of being so pussy.
This sort of defensive behavior is akin to some newb on Bnet forums defending why fast Mind control is a valid strategy. Get over it.
I disagree with what he said. I said why I disagree'd with it.
I might need to improve, who doesn't? That doesn't automatically make every point made by zulu into gospel truth.
I'm not going to respond to your petty personal attacks. I've said my piece on the the points that I wanted to.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!!
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On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!!
thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight.
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Klaz if we use your line of reasoning for those defences we can pretty much defend anything anyone ever said about SC strategies.
The fact is that zulu's objections are very black and white and your commentary at those specific points were very clearly lacking, even you trying to defend them just reveals more of your ignorance.
Just shut up and learn, there's no shame to it.
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Klazart, I'm not gonna respond to every single point you made as I already did that for Diggity. I admit I held you guys to too high of a standard but you really messed up on some stuff. A lot of your responses just show even more that you lack the in-depth knowledge needed to comment on progaming play. Yes I used very harsh words and was condescending, I apologize for that. But I hope you can look past it and not try to stubbornly defend youself and instead try to improve on your knowledge. Many of the comments which you find subjective are really not, if you're better at starcraft you would understand immediately. I don't play iccup, I only use iccup ranking as a general indicator of skill level. I'd consider the general population of TL at least ICCUP D level and I think that's a reasonable estimate. However you appear to be lower than that, and that's where I have a problem.
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On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight.
klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ
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On January 25 2008 03:39 Klaz wrote:
- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.
I'll respond to this one. What you just said is even more wrong. Jaedong went 9 pool gas vs stork so of course he built 6 lings because that forces stork to build 2 cannons very early on. Jaedong went 12 hatch vs Bisu so even if he built 6 lings Bisu could've defended it with some sealing probes and one cannon. That's why it has nothing to do with "aggression", but a simple difference in build order.
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Braavos36375 Posts
This particular issue isn't a matter of opinion, because when a Z goes pool gas he almost always build 6 lings, when you 12 hatch you have the option to not. It doesn't matter at all who the opponent is. There's no way Bisu's probe harass had a psychological effect and somehow caused LJD to only build 2 lings. The ling count was a product of the Zerg player's opening, not of how they control their early probes.
In fact, it doesn't even slow the Z player that much to delay the opening hatch because he just plops one at his 2nd nat (at this point LJD had seen the FE from the P). On Blue Storm all it delays is 2nd gas, and the Z player usually doesn't need his 2nd gas that early anyway.
A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
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I think klazart's commentaries are fine.
For example, I showed one of them to my 16 year old sister, who doesn't play ANY video games, and she thought it was entertaining. I think there is a reason why he doesn't keep a blog of them here, and thats because this isn't his primary audience.
Just like football commentaries on tv are a lot different than the coach's commentary in the film room, it really depends on the audience.
Anyway, when klazart starts accepting money for his commentaries (and hopefully he will), he may have time to spend 70 hours a week on starcraft and learn each build order down to the supply count. But right now he's married and is busy writing a novel...games really are for kids.
Also, I'd like to say I'm glad blogs don't get closed anymore....although it might be best if all these posts got closed, its also good to have discussion.
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On January 25 2008 04:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight. klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ
You're a complete trolling arsehole.
I mean you suck at talking to people politely, that's not a personal attack.
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i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you. Otherwise protoss needs sairs or templars to deal with mutalisks, so judging from how Jaedong was not hydra rushing there was no way bisu got a robo without stargate. So it's not something I said in hindsight it's something that I expect people who are commentating on bisu can pick up right away.
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On January 25 2008 04:42 Never Post wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 04:07 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 25 2008 04:02 Klaz wrote:On January 25 2008 03:57 Physician wrote:
- remember for every person trying to do something productive and constructive, there WILL always be 10 trying to undo it, and most for no reason other than because they can or out of simple malice, this happens always in life, not just our own community (in general the more idle time people have, and they more anonymous they feel - the worse they can get)
- just use any advice you deem worth listening, because only you can decide what is useful to you regardless what others may think; don't argue with the haters because you will only end up being discouraged; the hardest thing is to weed out the occasional useful feedback from all the discouraging clutter without taking to heart the mean stuff out there.
- just be relentless, never give up, move forward with your own work, do your best and you will never fail.
- go go go, I enjoy all of them!! thanks. I guess it's easy to get defensive when you feel ppl are attacking you personally. Though I think posts like hotbid's above are a good example of constructive and useful insight. klazart im not attacking you personally why the fuck can't you understand that? When I say klazart pulled that out of his ass I mean you suck at understanding stacraft, that's not a PERSONAL ATTACK. jesus fucking christ You're a complete trolling arsehole. I mean you suck at talking to people politely, that's not a personal attack.
that would be a personal attack because you're commenting on my internet social ability.
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A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
Yea you make a good point HotBid.
On other maps (mostly 4 player maps) the probe harassing a 12 hatch earlier plays a bigger role since usually there is no easily accessible 3rd expansion nearby. Granted delaying the 2nd hatch isn't the end of the world but it is certainly helpful.
Probe harasses don't mean as much on blue storm since there is a nearby easily accessible min. It only delays 2nd gas which usually isn't that big a factor unless the zerg player is going some crazy super fast tech build which falls into the 99% doesn't happen section (though who knows).
i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you.
I think this was mentioned before but Much went robo before gate in the playoffs fairly recently. Though I dont recall if he had scouted the den at that point or not.
MORE KLAZART MORE
Lets try to be mature plz :/ briefly hovering over the argument it seems semantical
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On January 25 2008 05:14 Diggity wrote:Show nested quote +
A good example of a game where scouting probe actually hugely impacted the game was Stork vs LJD on Persona. There's no real measurable difference between the "probe-hatch delay" abilities of each Bisu versus Stork, a comment about how the first probe forced something because it was a Bisu-probe really is making a big deal out of nothing.
Yea you make a good point HotBid. On other maps (mostly 4 player maps) the probe harassing a 12 hatch earlier plays a bigger role since usually there is no easily accessible 3rd expansion nearby. Granted delaying the 2nd hatch isn't the end of the world but it is certainly helpful. Probe harasses don't mean as much on blue storm since there is a nearby easily accessible min. It only delays 2nd gas which usually isn't that big a factor unless the zerg player is going some crazy super fast tech build which falls into the 99% doesn't happen section (though who knows). Show nested quote +i'll just ramble on, when i said the stargate is obvious, it is if you know anything about pvz build orders, going robo that early means you've sacrificed getting templar or stargate tech for early reavers, which would only make sense if the zerg is hydra rushing you. I think this was mentioned before but Much went robo before gate in the playoffs fairly recently. Though I dont recall if he had scouted the den at that point or not. Lets try to be mature plz :/ briefly hovering over the argument it seems semantical
diggity can you link me to the much game please or tell me who it was vs
also, cmon, this is a forum its not supposed to be serious all the time
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Zulu stop being so fucking apologetic goddamnit you said nothing wrong the first time.
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On January 25 2008 05:35 Aphelion wrote:
Zulu stop being so fucking apologetic goddamnit you said nothing wrong the first time.
Agreed. Also
I find its funner to watch VOD's with out commentary. Everything I hear people say I already see / know, this may be due to the fact though that the english commenters aren't so great. I don't need a commenter to tell me when to get excited or what to look out for when I can do those things for myself. Just my 2c
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diggity are you sure thats the right game? much did a normal build
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If on that vid it doesnt have a robo before gateway then its the wrong vid. Let me see if I can find the right one.
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United States7488 Posts
Whenever the English commentators comes up in discussion with anyone I know it is almost always praise with the exception of some who are much more knowledgeable and understanding of Starcraft. But this is the same with lots of sports.
For example:
I hate the Monday night football commentators, because they talk about the stupidest shit. Often commentators don't have the best understanding of the game and there will always be the hardcore fans are more knowledgeable then they are. However, they make up a very small percentage of the viewers.
A lot of the people I know who enjoy and watch the commentaries are people who just enjoy watching Starcraft and glad that there is English attached to it. A lot of them don't post here, or anywhere else, but they visit the community for news just the same.
Personally, I rarely watch the english commentaries because I watch live and don't go back to watch games again. When I do, they are good enough I download them so that i can watch them whenever I feel like rewatching them.
In short, they might not be perfect, but that can't be expected. They are contributing to the community and it just so happens that the prominent members of the community are the ones most likely to know more about the game. A lot of watchers don't know everything about the game, they don't watch to be hardcore fans. They watch for entertainment.
I'd have more to add, but I need to leave for class.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Yes, but there's a big difference between casting toward an audience with a lower level of understanding and casting incorrectly. A good number of the things Zulu identifies in his criticisms are not flexible, as in they are simple enough points that can be explained to either audience but are either misinterpreted or misexplained by the casters.
It's OK, nobody expects people to be perfect, because a lot of the MNF commentators say a lot of stupid crap too, but it's not like the non-hardcore players wouldn't understand better explanations.
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Diggity
Much went one base reaver hanbang rush. That is a lot different than going FE robo before stargate or templar archive. There can be no logic behind FE robo unless it's vs a hanbang hydra rush, however a one base reaver rush is an early push that attempts to kill the zerg before his lair tech, lurker/muta is out. This is again, pretty basic protoss build order knowledge.
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Much went one base reaver hanbang rush. That is a lot different than going FE robo before stargate or templar archive. There can be no logic behind FE robo unless it's vs a hanbang hydra rush, however a one base reaver rush is an early push that attempts to kill the zerg before his lair tech, lurker/muta is out. This is again, pretty basic protoss build order knowledge.
I think this is simply the wrong vid then. Again I cant see these from work so I cant tell which game is which. I figured the last link was wrong since the map was python (so rare to FE).
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...And to think all of this could have been avoided with a simple disclaimer.
"Before I begin this commentary, I would like to throw out there that I consider my understanding of starcraft to range at about "x".
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...And to think all of this could have been avoided with a simple disclaimer.
"Before I begin this commentary, I would like to throw out there that I consider my understanding of starcraft to range at about "x".
Honestly considering some of the comments I'm not sure that would have helped.
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why r u people complaining about the quality and that its not "tl.net standard", they dont do it in the nick of tl.net, they just ve a thread here to get a wider audience and to provide something what they do for fun, i mean...if i dont like listening to britney spears i dont ve to ...right ?
went from a childish wc3 community straight into an old community which is ...not that much different :<(
oh btw, u guys r doing the ascension thing too or ? listened to the dissy group and stuff, u guys should really stop hyping those players every minute, telling one time that they r so good players is ok, but doing it 40 times is kinda annoying :<)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 25 2008 03:39 Klaz wrote:
Right. clearing the air. Stick to the objective and all that....
So here are my objective refutations of the first 15-20 or so points made by zulu in his first commentary. You're welcome to agree/disagree debate endlessly whatever. My original post in my blog still stands as to you motivation despite your claims to the contrary I remain suspect...anyways..
You say you want to point out primarily mistakes. Well there is a difference between mistakes and opinion. You wanted a factual argument so lets have a factual argument.
I think you made an offhand remark about there being 100 mistakes. So obviously to prove you're point you had to find them. I think this has lead you to clutch at straws and try and find issues where there aren't any. Many of your points are semantical in nature and matters of opinion. Also, a lot of the things you have issue with are not in fact mistakes at all but just not "interesting enough for you," which is fine. You don't find it interesting. Other people do. The fact you don't is less interesting than anything else.
Lastly a lot of your points seem to be based on the assumption that only players above a certain "STANDARD" watch or enjoy starcraft pro-vods. At this point I'll remind you that even Tasteless points out very basic and mundane things that are STANDARD and OBVIOUS because he recognises that they are not STANDARD and OBVIOUS to everyone who might be watching the game. That being said, here is a detailed rebuttal of the "mistakes"
So here are the first 45:
[quote]- 2:06, "wow very interesting jaedong just took the min only expansion" why is that interesting? there was a probe at jaedong's natural.
Is this a starcraft mistake? Or is it just your opinion that it's not interesting? Can you be certain it's not an interesting fact to everyone else listening? I think it is interesting for many reasons. It can change the game entirely. The 3'o clock expansion is a lot more vulnerable than his natural expo, especially early game. Sunkens placed at it may not be enough to defend the natural, and consequently the main. The zerg might be planning on going 3 hatch anyway, but this forces them to be more spread out. [/quote]
This is wrong because that min-only is not at all vulnerable. Every zerg takes both their nat and that expansion at least when a protoss FEs. The only other response is a hydra break, and in that situation, the second nat is never vulnerable because the zerg has a bunch of hydralisks. Every zerg takes this expansion before the protoss moves out on Blue Storm. This is something you should know, but don't. At any rate, the reason jaedong took it before his nat is because Bisu's probe was blocking his expansion at his nat. There is no risk at all in taking that mineral-only first.
[quote]- 2:30, any decent toss knows to nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch, it doesn't leave them "vulnerable" whatsoever.
It's still a very valid question. Maybe not to you with your "advanced knowledge" but a lot of people listening may not have that knowledge, so it's a good point nevertheless to clarify for people listening. [/quote]
I honestly doubt you knew that Bisu was 100% safe. If I'm wrong and you did know that already, and you really were trying to point it out to potentially new players, then you should have stated that Bisu is safe and given the reason. This is a commentating mistake in that something so obvious doesn't need to be called into question. You're wasting time and making people who already know Bisu is 100% safe (which accounts for probably 90% of your audience) listen to something that basically everyone knows. That's bad.
[quote]- 2:34, Jaedong doesn't need to scout with a drone he knows 99% Bisu will fast expand, you simply can't go one base on blue storm because of choke.
99% is not 100%. So you're saying there is no chance of any sort of a rush build or a proxy gateway or anything at all ingenous or different on blue storm? It always must be a fast expand? In hindsight, yes that's what he did do. [/quote]
Zerg players all over the place neglect drone scouting on blue storm. This is because the overlord reaches their opponents base at a time that allows them to see whether the protoss is fast expanding or not, and if the protoss isn't, the zerg has time to make zerglings. A drone scout against a professional Protoss on Blue Storm is pretty unnecessary. As zulu said, you simply cannot do some sort of 1gate tech build on Blue Storm, because you will inevitably get your shit wrecked. That means is a protoss doesn't FE he is proxy gating or two-gating. Either way, an overlord will see it in time. Things like this are incredibly map-specific and you don't seem to differentiate between maps in this regard.
[quote]- 2:39, "Jaedong will probably opt for a third hatchery anyway" Not probably, definitely
This is hindsight talking. And clutching at straws. An arguement of semantics... probably/definately. The point is that the most likely thing is he would get a 3rd hatchery here and this was pointed out. But unless you happen to be a mind reader you cannot guarentee it 100%. There is always a small chance that the player can do something different.[/quote]
No. Given Jaedong's opening and the fact that his second hatchery went to his mineral-only, there is no chance that he is not going to place his third hatchery at his nat. Literally no chance. Even a zergling break attempt needs a third hatchery, and that hatchery will go at jaedong's nat.
[quote]- 3:03, "no toss can seem to do the build fast enough" what does that mean? every toss does the same build order, Bisu does it better because he harasses better, macros and micros better.
Maybe this is a language barrier problem? Isn't that exactly what he is saying? That Bisu is the most effective at it. That he gets the combo going in time to counter the zerg player when most other protoss players are not able to do so. Again this is nit picking on language or semantics. Nothing fundamentally wrong was said here.[/quote]
There is indeed something fundamentally wrong here. Bisu's strength lies in his inhuman multitask and the sense of timing he uses to decide when to switch to a large ground army. Any protoss at like C level can execute the first 8 minutes of Bisu's signature build without flaws, and certainly any professional protoss can. Saying that Bisu does the build 'faster' than any other protoss is flat-out wrong and not at all what allows him to be so effective.
[quote]- 3:07, again, nexus before forge is the STANDARD build vs 12 hatch, it has nothing to do with how good Bisu is. zero
there was no comment made about nexus before forge at 3:07. Are you just repeating this point you supposedly already made because you don't have enough points?[/quote]
Get over yourself
[quote]- 3:45, quoted roughly "one of the hallmarks of a great player is to keep his defense to a minimum" klazart makes that comment after seeing only one cannon. Bisu only built one cannon because he has his probe scout to see how many lings Jaedong has built and whether they are going for Bisu's base or not, it's very basic scouting that any decent foreign toss knows how to do.
This is a highly highly subjective opinion. Did we just not see a game where a protoss player built 7 photon cannons vs Nada? Okay fine, it was vs T. But to say that "any decent foreign toss does this" is making a very general statement. Even if they do? So what? There are a lot of ppl who watch our vods that might not know this. Maybe it's not "in depth" enough for you, but for you to claim it's "wrong" is really stretching it. It's my opinion that the best players do keep defenses to a minimum and always tread the line, savior and bisu do it. I don't know how many foreign players do it or not though they should be doing it. Maybe this wasn't a perfect example of that but it was still pertinent enough to illustrate the point.[/quote]
Zulu is correct in that any decent toss can determine the required number of cannons with a probe scout. Bisu isn't treading a line with that cannon, he isn't taking a risk. He's exercising caution. While it is true that being cost-effective is desirable, small things like this are common to a massive base of players, not just elite professionals. It's not a "hallmark of a great player", so to say.
[quote]#10 - 3:55 - 4:17, Klazart pulls out a question straight from his ass, which was basically "do you think bisu went nexus before forge because he's adapting to jaedong's new zvp style he used vs stork?"... no man, for the 3rd time he went nexus before forge cuz jaedong 12 hatched.
this point I can concede, it was a bit of a superficial question. Nevertheless, putting nexus before forge when you see 12 hatch is by DEFINITION adapting your strategy according to what the opponent is doing. [/quote]
If you're going to concede, don't argue. The question was, "is Bisu using this build because of what Jaedong showed against Stork". No, absolutely not. Bisu's entire modus operandi against Zerg is to control the game from start to finish. His nexus-first build was in response to 12hatch, but it could be ANYONE's 12hatch. Since Bisu plays to his multitasking strength to control the game flow, and his powerful FE build to keep him safe from whatever the Zerg throws at him, it would be incorrect to assume that Bisu would change anything just because Jaedong beat Stork.
[quote]- 4:22, delaying 2nd hatch has nothing to do with when lings gonna come out, only thing that affects when lings come out is when zerg builds his pool.
It has everything to do with it. If the zerg is waiting till after he gets the hatch down before he puts his pool it can delay for a second or to. It can be a simple issue of micro, if nothing else. It may not have an effect every time against every player but it can have an effect. Secondly and more importantly, it was said very clearly "plus he had that probe there so he knew when the lings were coming"[/quote]
Again, you're wrong. A hatchery is 300 minerals and a spawning pool is 200. A slight delay makes no difference to when the zerglings come out. If the zerg was somehow stalled for long enough to accumulate 200 extra minerals, his pool would go down before his hatchery. With any 12hatch attempt, the pool comes at the same time regardless of how much trouble you had laying your hatchery.
[quote]- 4:26, Jaedong never built six lings at start.
Okay fine. He forgot or missed in the heat of the commentary that jaedong hadn't built six lings throuhgout. But on the fly it was a decent guess that he might have. Regardless the point isn't the lings coming or not coming.... the point is that he had the info to know when they would be coming and therefore could play accordingly.[/quote]
You really ought to be able to tell whether Jaedong has six lings or not. Commentating isn't hard.
[quote]- 4:28, "I think what's really interesting is Bisu only has a single cannon down." That's very standard when protoss sees zerg only builds two zerglings at start, not very interesting.
Again subjective. Not very interesting to who? The fact that his game play is so precise is an interesting fact. Maybe not to "uber leet pros" who do it automatically, but certainly to people who watch for fun or entertaiment or maybe don't play at that level.[/quote]
Don't act like this. The way you said it is indicative of non-standard play. You sounded impressed by his genius as he plodded along with his single cannon. Every protoss makes one cannon if the zerg only makes two zerglings. Yes, Bisu knew exactly how many lings Jaedong had.
[quote]- 5:15, the Stork vs Jaedong game, no one thinks the cannons were placed badly, they were placed around stork's nexus and all were able to hit Jaedong's mutalisks. Stork losing his corsairs very poorly and not getting enough cannons were his main mistakes.
More subjective opinion and nit picking. How do you know no one things that? Have you read every single opinion in every single starcraft community about that particular game? Maybe some ppl did blame (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant here) the cannon placement. Obviously Diggity read it somewhere or he wouldn't have said it. You say it was poor micro by stork and not enough cannons. Some people feel it was more down to jaedong's superior micro. Sure there may have been other factors involved, but diggity was just making a quick point about the game, and obviously we couldn't cover every single facet of it.[/quote]
What's this garbage? Trying to tell Zulu that maybe someone somewhere said it so its a valid point to make? Let me spell it out for you, then: Stork's cannons were NOT misplaced. In fact, they were placed very well. Stork's mistake was letting the scourge give chase on his corsairs away from his cannons. Jaedong's mutalisks beat the corsairs back to the cannons, and thus took all of the hits. From there, there is no way that Stork can kill those mutalisks, and there is no way for Stork to save his corsairs. This was a small mistake from Stork that was maximized by Jaedong. There was nothing wrong with the cannons.
[quote]- 5:15, again something very standard, when you attack protoss with mutalisks of course you send the mutalisks first then scourges to target corsairs, it's not something only Jaedong can do. Only reason why Stork lost his corsair was because he didn't attempt to dodge the scourges.
How subjective is this also? What do you mean ofc? Not every player in the world has the timing and micro to pull off what Jaedong did. The proof is in the pudding that we don't see it happening so often in pro games where a protoss' fleet get's owned in that manner. Jaedong's play may not have been the only factor but it was certainly one of them[/quote]
The reason we don't see Protoss lose like that more often is that in most cases the protoss doesn't move his corsairs away from his base until he has a larger amount than Stork had. Stork moved them out of his main prematurely, and found too many scourge to handle. It was over from there, and a lot of pro zergs would have capitalized the same way. Yes, the attack was excellently handled by Jaedong, but Stork's mistake allowed the opportunity, and Jaedong isn't the only guy who would have recognized it.
[quote]All these things that are "standard" that I'm naming, they're not just from my perspective, when I play D+ tosses on iccup they know to go nexus before forge when they see 12 hatch.
So only D+ tosses watch starcraft vods. Right that makes sense now.[/quote]
This is TL.net, not the battle.net forum. 95% of the people at this site know they can make a nexus if they scout a zerg 12hatching soon enough.
[quote]- 5:17, pretty obvious he had stargate.
nonsense. Because a day or two after this there was a game where a player went for the robo bay first. So it does happen. But hey it's easy to watch the vod come back later and go "ofc there's a stargate". There may be a high chance of one, but until you see it you can never be 100% sure in starcraft what a player will do. [/quote]
No. There was a 100% chance Bisu would build a stargate after his cybernetics core. You don't recognize key signs as to how the game is progressing, which means you missed this. Bisu's FE uses a stargate literally 100% of the time, and in the situation he was in, Stargate + Robo is the ideal combination. You don't recognize what that situation is, so you don't know that. There was no chance Bisu would go archive+robo that game. No chance at all. You keep saying that you can't be 100% sure until you see it in StarCraft. This isn't true. The games you're commentating on are professional games, which means the players make correct build decisions. Again, given the situation, there was no chance of Bisu not building a Stargate.
[quote]- 6:30, no offense to Klazart but he's seriously talking out of his ass, Jaedong gets a hydra den because he needs a couple hydras to protect his overlords because his spire won't be up fast enough to match bisu's sairs. Again this is because Bisu nexused before forge which means his tech was a lot faster than stork who went forge two cannons before nexus, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the "aggressive style of Bisu" the protoss starting FE build is 100% in response to zerg's opening.
I'll bite here..my opinion. Bisu does good probe harass early on Jaedong's natural expo is slowed a bit. Maybe this has a psychological effect, he builds only 2 lings... maybe he was gonna build 6... this allows bisu to put only one cannon down, and leads to everything else you are talking about. The point is that stork didn't achieve this. Maybe it was because jaedong went 6 lings against stork, why didn't he vs bisu? is it because bisu is more agressive, more formidable an opponent for zerg players? I think so. That is my opinion. You can disagree, but you can't say for sure that the psychology did not play a part and that Bisu's aggressive style of play is not a factor.
Again you can disagree, fine, but that doesn't make what I said categorically wrong as you seem to be implying.[/quote]
First of all, Jaedong is a fucking professional. He doesn't succumb to such simple mental blocks. If he did, he wouldn't be as good as he is, that's a fact. There is no 'psychological effect'. Jaedong made 2 zerglings to kill the scouting probe, and was using every available resource to get drones and his spire and den. His den was exactly for the purpose Zulu says it was, as a measure against corsair because his spire isn't up in time against Bisu's nexus-first build. It has nothing to do with Bisu being 'more aggressive', and if anything, STORK is more aggressive. He routinely attacks with ground units much earlier than Bisu does. You should know this, and if you did, you wouldn't have made that comment.
[quote]- 7:50, "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu within his natural with just zerglings." That's because Bisu has one zealot and one dragoon -_-
Doesn't change anything. The fact still remains, that Jaedong has got his units positioned correctly and he is restricting his opponent and not allowing him to get any ground units out. Bisu does have a reaver, two zealots and a dragoon at this point. The above statement is not incorrect in anyway.[/quote]
This is another commentating error. You're speaking like you have no idea whats going on. "Jaedong seems to be able to contain Bisu at his natural with just zerglings"? You're saying that like you're surprised, or that its due to some amazing ability of Jaedong's. It's not. You don't say "Jaedong seems to be able to" blah blah blah, you say "Jaedong can contain Bisu in his natural because Bisu's build progression only allows him a single zealot and dragoon at this time". Then you talk about how that affects Jaedong's decisions, most notably, the sick amount of drones he was producing. What you said is like saying "Jaedong seems to be able to make a lot of drones" five minutes into the game after Bisu had already built a Nexus first. You don't just point out incredibly obvious things and then neglect to talk about them, that's bad commentating.
[quote]#20 - 8:10, "Jaedong interesting does not go for mutalisks but hydralisks." Again that's not very interesting at all, Jaedong was using all of his larvas when spire was almost done.
You really cannot get more subjective than this. Why is it not interesting? Larva or not, he clearly made a choice. That choice does clearly affect the game. When I made the comment he had a lot of scourges up and running and trying to kill corsairs in bisu's base, so he could have made more mutalisks by the time that comment was made if he had chosen to.[/quote]
To someone with a strong knowledge of starcraft, counting larva is the biggest indication of whether a Zerg will make a group of mutas or just scourge and hydralisks. Jaedong wasn't collecting his larva at all, which means he is not going to make a mutalisk harass group. Again, to someone with a strong knowledge of starcraft, this is not interesting at all. Rather, it just highlights your own lack of knowledge.
[quote]- 8:24, "This is entirely uncharacteristic of Bisu" It's very common when going reaver/sair to take the 3rd gas expansion first then attack. Bisu at that point has at the most two reavers.
Very common for WHO? Diggity is talking specifically about BISU here. He's watched a lot of Bisu's games and he is talking about what he thinks bisu is likely to do. Maybe he should do it or not. Maybe something else is standard. Whatever. This is what Diggity thinks Bisu does on a regular basis, so him not doing it is uncharacteristic.[/quote]
It's not uncharacteristic of Bisu. Watch more games. Zulu is right, in most cases a protoss will take another gas before attacking with his reaver/sair.
[quote]- 9:19, Klazart asked if Jaedong should've gone mutalisks to maintain air superiority and you said it was an interesting question, maybe you were just being polite I don't know but to the audience that is a very dumb question as there is no way he could keep up with early upgraded +1 attack two stargate corsairs with mutalisks off of two gases. So no, he never in a million years should've gone mutalisks.
To which audience? Oh I forgot, Iccup players.
My hands kinda gave up after this...
[/QUOTE]
Zulu is right again, this is a really stupid question. Going mutalisks at any point of this particular game would have been utter suicide. You should know the game well enough to not ask a question like that, but you don't.
You don't know the game nearly as well as you think you do, suck it up. Look at Diggity, he didn't like Zulu's tone either, but he's taken what he can out of the criticism anyway, and he recognizes that there are weak points to his commentating. Diggity has reacted very maturely to zulu's actions and demonstrates a genuine willingness to improve. You're still just acting like a kid.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The things I've discussed are either hard facts of StarCraft or examples of bad commentating. You will still probably try to disagree with them, but you will be in error. You should recognize what it means when someone like Hot_Bid or myself agrees with criticisms on your game knowledge. StarCraft isn't a game of opinions. You ARE wrong, but all of this is here for you to learn from. If you can put aside your attitude you will find yourself able to become a much better commentator in the future.
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I used to play SC a lot. For a few years I didn't have enough time to play often so I went away from the game. Then about 6 months ago I saw the English commentaries on Youtube and it got me back into the game. Now I read this forum daily because of them.
This is my take on the events:
Firstly; TL.Net has a right to say the commentaries are of a low standard. The commentators asked for clarity and Zulu makes some very good points.. (although then he randomly apologies for no reason).
But then Klazart (who i'm a big fan of btw), is offended when really I don't know why he gives a shit and then some other TL.Net members get quite rude and this whole thing blows out of proportion.
Why the commentators take so much offense and why some members of TL.Net have to be so rude I do not know.
Diggity is 100% right when he says that their commentaries cater to newer players, if TL alienates those players then eventually you will die out, so it's in your interest to support these guys and provide constructive criticism.
Big deal Klazart isn't a C+ ICCUP player and therefore he misses a few things; he is exciting to listen to and he DOES give insight into what the players are doing.
Now after a few months of playing a lot I reached a high level once more and listening to the commentaries I began to notice a lot of build order and strategic details that the commentators missed. However, I still listen to the commentaries purely for the entertainment value and play by play commentary because I think it makes it more entertaining.
What I'm saying is it is in both your interests to get along.
The commentators bring more people to TL.Net which increases your advertisement and keeps the community fresh and interesting.
In return TL.Net provides information to the commentators so that they can learn more about the game and about the players personalities.
Everyones a winner!
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Osaka27151 Posts
On January 25 2008 08:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I used to play SC a lot. For a few years I didn't have enough time to play often so I went away from the game. Then about 6 months ago I saw the English commentaries on Youtube and it got me back into the game. Now I read this forum daily because of them.
This is my take on the events:
Firstly; TL.Net has a right to say the commentaries are of a low standard. The commentators asked for clarity and Zulu makes some very good points.. (although then he randomly apologies for no reason).
But then Klazart (who i'm a big fan of btw), is offended when really I don't know why he gives a shit and then some other TL.Net members get quite rude and this whole thing blows out of proportion.
Why the commentators take so much offense and why some members of TL.Net have to be so rude I do not know.
Diggity is 100% right when he says that their commentaries cater to newer players, if TL alienates those players then eventually you will die out, so it's in your interest to support these guys and provide constructive criticism.
Big deal Klazart isn't a C+ ICCUP player and therefore he misses a few things; he is exciting to listen to and he DOES give insight into what the players are doing.
Now after a few months of playing a lot I reached a high level once more and listening to the commentaries I began to notice a lot of build order and strategic details that the commentators missed. However, I still listen to the commentaries purely for the entertainment value and play by play commentary because I think it makes it more entertaining.
What I'm saying is it is in both your interests to get along.
The commentators bring more people to TL.Net which increases your advertisement and keeps the community fresh and interesting.
In return TL.Net provides information to the commentators so that they can learn more about the game and about the players personalities.
Everyones a winner!
This makes a lot of sense to me. That whole idea that new players were being "led astray" was fucking garbage anyways.
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I'd just like to quickly comment on things like this:
On January 25 2008 08:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
No. There was a 100% chance Bisu would build a stargate after his cybernetics core. You don't recognize key signs as to how the game is progressing, which means you missed this. Bisu's FE uses a stargate literally 100% of the time, and in the situation he was in, Stargate + Robo is the ideal combination. You don't recognize what that situation is, so you don't know that. There was no chance Bisu would go archive+robo that game. No chance at all. You keep saying that you can't be 100% sure until you see it in StarCraft. This isn't true. The games you're commentating on are professional games, which means the players make correct build decisions. Again, given the situation, there was no chance of Bisu not building a Stargate.
My issue here is that if every pro player does a standard build order every time this leaves no room for the innovation in strategies that we see in the evolution of the pro-starcraft scene.
Yes, Bisu has always in the past used a stargate but maybe he has a crazy new idea this time that will change the face of PvZ. I think it is hard to deny that this could and does happen though I could be wrong as I am not a great player nor really heavily into the pro-scene.
Even in the case that this is extremely unlikely to happen it is far more exciting to imagine that one of the players might be up to something completly new and thrilling for the first time ever in my opinion.
As Diggity says in practically all his commentaries now "Don't take anything for granted." or something like that. Don't close your mind maaannn~ ^^
Edit: I also think I have learned a lot from their commentaries and have improved because of it. Not to even a C- rank but I don't really have much time to play anyways, but thats beside the point. Though their comments may not be 100% perfect or even right all the time I think their strategic basics are good. The issue is that one person's basics are another's advanced tactics.
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To be honest, if you don't like it, don't watch it. When you watch some piece of shit TV show, you change the channel.
Lets say you watch baseball on TV. A million people watch the same game. The announcer constantly explains a bunch of crap that everyone already knows, and then talks about how to swing the ball. The players on the field do not go whining to the announcer that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. The 99.9% of people who are clueless all slightly understand baseball a little better, and enjoy it a bit more. Perhaps some go out and buy a baseball glove to try and play themselves, and have some fun. The 0.1% of people who are baseball pros disagree with the announcer and watch the game anyway, because the game is enjoyable and they love it.
Klaz, Diggity and Mole are doing the SC Community a huge favor by dedicating their time and effort into improving the numbers, quality and enjoyment of everyone, and there is absolutely NO reason that anyone should be bashing them because of it, after all, you're not paying them to do this.
If you don't like it, change the channel. Don't waste your time being mean for no real reason.
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I agree with a lot of what Klive5ive says.
Some of the people providing criticism are ridiculously harsh in contrast of the fact that some of the issues cited were purely situations and really don't have anything to do with why people watch the commentaries (though still valid criticism).
Of their viewer base, I'm sure a large percentage of them cite some of the issues and criticism provided herein to be valid, true, and necessary. I've watched far too many of their English commentaries, even though I also watch the games live. I watch the English Commentaries primarily because their added commentary is entertaining enough (regardless of accurracy) so that I find it thoroughly enjoyable to watch something that I've already scene.
Sure there are times where one of them will be wondering when the player is going to get their Stargate 30 seconds after they showed the Stargate. Or for instance, they say that they did one thing for a reason they obviously didn't.
Mistakes happen. If I spoke korean (or atleast understood it well) then I would not need these english commentaries. As it stands though there is not a single other source (aside from the 3-5 people whom post english commentaries on youtube) for a continual source of commentary in my native language. Sure Ascension, Sure Chill's execellent analysis of his own play. But there is no other place where I can expect English commentaries on Professional level games that have been played within the last week.
Sure, they've been commentating for less than a year... It's no different than only having played Starcraft less than a year. Improvement will occur. Yes, this feedback is essential to their improvement and they should and most likely will admit that. Feedback however is a personal thing when talking directly to eachother regardless of how impersonal you try to present it. As such each person providing feedback to eachother (feedback of feedback ect) should treat, and present their feedback in a more personal tone. Why? This prevents anyone from being offended, it also makes the feedback much more pleasant on the ears(eyes). Genuine, quality feedback is a hard to come by and I'm sure the commentators would appreciate it.
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
If you want to argue the semantics of "personal" you can, but I won't be joining the argument. I call it personal because they the commentators personally spend a lot of time recording their voice and their personal opinions on the aspects of a game for the entertainment purposes of their 1000(s) of subscribers on youtube. Not for the avid iccup competition, nor the english speaking top tier players. They make it for the mass of the english speaking noobs.
Perhaps by asking for feedback on a site geared towards the top-tier of play they made their real mistake. But in reality, I think it was a smart move for them. If their true intention is to improve.
That aside, I'd like to challenge (just for comparison albeit vain or not) anyone fluent in Korean to translate and do the same thing Zulu did to their commentary. Sure you won't find as many mistakes the point is YOU WILL FIND MISTAKES. You will find mistakes even with the fact that those commentators are getting paid for it, devote a much greater percentage of their time, and have a lot of experience doing it. They are also much more organized with each commentator having a specific role, insight, and purpose.
In short -- Don't be discouraged by their feedback, and ignore those that are bad mannered. If they genuinely want to provide good feedback then they should have absolutely no problem having manners.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback
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Godamn just leave Diggity alone again. I mean he was fine and I loved listening to his stuff but now this...why make a big deal out of it?? He is just doing this for fun, not professionally
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I think there is a lot of elitism in the Starcraft world, it is what kept me lurking here for so long before i actually decided to register. I do not think that I am the only one who feels this way.
I would like to extend my thanks and congratulations to Klaz, Diggty, and Moletrap, not because they're the most knowledgeable Starcraft people in the history of time, but rather because they go out of their way to volunteer to provide me with seemingly endless entertainment, while also succeeding in making starcraft programing much more accessible and fun to watch for people who are newer to the scene like myself.
While some constructive criticism is present (in some cases well structured and thought out) i feel that this thread (and the other blog thread by Klaz, and indeed forum threads that spawned these subsequent blog threads) contain an unnecessarily high degree of trolling. I'm sure even the professional SC commentators make 'bad' calls from time to time. I certainly feel as if commentators make 'bad' calls from time to time with regards to other professional sports. (Can anyone who speaks Korean verify this for me with regards to starcraft? hehe)
Anyway, thanks again gents, don't let the trolls get you down, they'll probably never go away. However, those of us who appreciate your efforts vastly outnumber the trolls from what i can tell.  And those who don't appreciate the commentaries can do themselves a favor and just stop listening to them, right?
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On January 25 2008 10:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback
Well... I agree with your feedback....
I guess my real point was... from some perspectives it is inevitable in this currently standing environment that the feedback has a certain personal charge to it. You're feedback isn't any different, in that sense. You however portray the situation very well and I think the feedback you have provided is among the best within this thread.
I suppose, really i'm just saying that directly calling klazart a defensive pussy while also attempting to provide feedback is a very bad route for both constructive criticism and feedback. I would also posit that it also has the potential to inhibit improvement. Thinking Klazart is a definsive pussy and directly telling him such while under the guise of saying "do this" are two very different things.
I personally don't think that Klazart is being a defensive pussy, i feel he is simply trying to narrow down the specifics and really understand the situation. Defensive? Of course he is, anyone would be. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It has to do with conveying the proper message properly and acting as a catalyst for improvement. As their is most certainly room for English commentary within the foreign scene and the casual scene.
Klaz's response while resistant was nothing but expected and normal considering the original critique of his works. Zulu's feedback was initially a bit over the top in tone and aspect. Klaz's commentary demograph is not top tier players or players of your or zulu's caliber. Sure, i understand it spawned from some discussion between diggity and zulu... You say defensive pussy, and I say completely standard play... Simply a necessary step in providing true quality feedback and it shouldn't discourage anyone from continuing this debate.
Would you disagree FakeSteve that trolls and people whom have no desire to truly sit down to critique, point out fatal mistakes (not so many menial ones), and assist otherwise do not necessarily have a place within this blog?
Simply put, after the initial hurdle of WTF they don't like my shit (or WTF his shit sucks).... There is a lot of room for true discussion on improvement because diggity and klazart both show a lot of dedication, potential and desire to fill this empty space within the english oriented community.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 11:05 Motiva wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 10:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 25 2008 09:37 Motiva wrote:
Calling a commentator a defensive pussy after some highly critical feedback that could have been worded much more pleasantly (which is what the apologies were about, i understand that) is just a really simple way of saying "I can't really provide feedback, so i'm just going to call you stupid for taking this personal matter personally, while i am really just telling you that i need to GTFO"
How about me? I definitely think klazart is being a defensive pussy but I provided lots of feedback Well... I agree with your feedback.... I guess my real point was... from some perspectives it is inevitable in this currently standing environment that the feedback has a certain personal charge to it. You're feedback isn't any different, in that sense. You however portray the situation very well and I think the feedback you have provided is among the best within this thread. I suppose, really i'm just saying that directly calling klazart a defensive pussy while also attempting to provide feedback is a very bad route for both constructive criticism and feedback. I would also posit that it also has the potential to inhibit improvement. Thinking Klazart is a definsive pussy and directly telling him such while under the guise of saying "do this" are two very different things. I personally don't think that Klazart is being a defensive pussy, i feel he is simply trying to narrow down the specifics and really understand the situation. Defensive? Of course he is, anyone would be. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It has to do with conveying the proper message properly and acting as a catalyst for improvement. As their is most certainly room for English commentary within the foreign scene and the casual scene. Klaz's response while resistant was nothing but expected and normal considering the original critique of his works. Zulu's feedback was initially a bit over the top in tone and aspect. Klaz's commentary demograph is not top tier players or players of your or zulu's caliber. Sure, i understand it spawned from some discussion between diggity and zulu... You say defensive pussy, and I say completely standard play... Simply a necessary step in providing true quality feedback and it shouldn't discourage anyone from continuing this debate. Would you disagree FakeSteve that trolls and people whom have no desire to truly sit down to critique, point out fatal mistakes (not so many menial ones), and assist otherwise do not necessarily have a place within this blog? Simply put, after the initial hurdle of WTF they don't like my shit (or WTF his shit sucks).... There is a lot of room for true discussion on improvement because diggity and klazart both show a lot of dedication, potential and desire to fill this empty space within the english oriented community.
I would agree that mindless trolling really doesn't have a place in this, be it for or against.
The last bit, I would say that's true for Diggity.
Klazart on the other hand.... The first post I made on this matter was very polite but it reinforced the notion that Klazart's knowledge of StarCraft is lacking. It was put in a way that wasn't offensive, and there were many points he could have accepted which would have been a step in the right direction. Instead, he chose to jump all over me for making a snide remark to a completely different person, and launched into this thing about how I'm a disgrace to TL. Besides the fact that you do not say that to staff members under any circumstances, Klazart has shown no willingness to improve or even any admittance that his knowledge of StarCraft is less than good. Just dismissive statements that we don't know how hard it is to commentate.
As such, props to Diggity for taking all of this in stride as it should be taken, and fuck you Klazart for being a complete shithead.
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tbh, what's this entire argument about? diggity, klaz, moletrap and these other guys provide commentary that wasn't really there b4 in this quantity...if anything, they probably bring more players to the game and provide entertainment.
sure, all commentators are in the process of learning, but ffs, I enjoy the commentaries no matter the skill level they cater to.
there aren't ENOUGH english commentators out there...so I don't think it's a good idea to attack the only ones that are around...sure, criticism is good, but some criticism i've read around here has been very MALICIOUS in nature...
whatever, keep on commentating Diggity, take the criticism, keep learning, n all that good stufF!
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What ya'll really need is Artosis to help ya'll out. He understands the game and is a decent commentator to boot.
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I actually think that klazart's commentaries are very insightful and added a lot of value to games when I started following the proscene. How he is as a person I have not much idea, but I haven't found another english-speaking commentator who I'd rather listen to.
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United States1865 Posts
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked, because they provide entertaining play-by-play of what is happening, along with some insight as to the players themselves. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them.
Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries.
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As a slight off topic, could anyone direct me to where I could sample some of Artosis or Nony's commentaries of pro games? I've seen Nony, Chill, and Merz's commentaries of their own games but you guys seem to keep mentioning Artosis and Nony as if they've commentated pro games but I haven't found them.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
they haven't, Artosis is one of the commentators of Ascension which is a non-korean tournament with some really really great games in it. Nony posts all of his commentaries in his blog, but the only progaming one I know of is a commentary of jaedong vs bisu
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On January 25 2008 12:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
they haven't, Artosis is one of the commentators of Ascension which is a non-korean tournament with some really really great games in it. Nony posts all of his commentaries in his blog, but the only progaming one I know of is a commentary of jaedong vs bisu
Yeah, I just found that now. I was like "crap, have I been living under a rock or something?" Thanks.
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Somewhat offtopic, but here goes. I'd rank the english commentators I've listened to as follows:
Tasteless. That man cracks me up.
Klazart. You're words-per-minute puts July's APM to shame.
Diggity/Moletrap. Both of you are a lot like Klazart in your commentaries, but without the wpm of July on crack.
Of course, this is entirely subjective, totally biased, and all that. I think it also changes my listening/viewing experience, the more VOD's I watch. I watch a lot more VOD's than I play games, so I think my understanding of the game is higher than my physical skill level. Because of that, I often understand many of the nuances, which means that once in a while I spot something that a commentator misses. Partly, that's why I like Tasteless, because I can look at the game and understand, while listening to him makes me laugh a lot.
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United States1865 Posts
On January 25 2008 12:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them. Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries.
Fair enough but that seems like something that would be better off not taking place so publicly. The fact still stands that you are here calling him a shithead and he is not calling you a shithead.
Also I think another important factor that the whole anti-non-gosu-commentator crowd is forgetting: the major importance that personality has in being an effective and interesting commentator. For example, Nony: while I did quite enjoy his Jaedong/Bisu commentary, it was a completely different type of commentary that lacked excitment but did indeed have strategic depth, and much of the fun I had stemmed from the game being simply fantastic in itself. He can often seem too slow/plodding with a bored monotone quality to his voice, and will lack the funny expressions/jokes/color that a commentator with a better "radio personality" but perhaps less starcraft knowledge, could provide.
Side Note: This, I beleive is what makes the Ascension team of Gentho (personality)/ Artosis (knowledge) so great. But if forced to choose, I would much rather have someone who can give entertainment to even a one-sided rape of a game, than someone who could give me better strategic insight but requires a really great game in order to remain exciting.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:00 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 12:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 25 2008 12:26 Atrioc wrote:
Man, this is some of the most elitist garbage I have ever seen in an online community. I am shocked that there is actually people who would talk down to those who are actively working day in and day out to benefit the english starcraft scene.
I am C- iCCup player, who lurks here, watches lives games and follows the proscene, and yet I have some Klazart vids (and their triple-commentary) on my freaking iPod. Suprise! And i'm not sitting there picking them apart, maliciously, while im watching them just because ocassionaly I might notice a mistake. They are entertaining. It is fun hearing other people discuss their thoughts on players and the game and excitment during cool parts.
It is obvious this is like some kind of attention-grab show off of starcraft knowledge mixed with pure bred elitism, because the "leading the new guys astray!" argument is heavy bullshit -- these commentaries are one of the few things that linked some of my friends into SC when they were new and sucked. They are a blessing to the SC community and it is a shame to see someone who is being incredibly impossibly good mannered (Diggity) get continually trashed in incredibly condescending and rude posts because he hasnt played as much starcraft as them. Nobody is making rude posts anymore. Zulu made rude posts and apologized for them. I'm being rude to Klazart because he's a shithead, not because I don't like his commentaries. Fair enough but that seems like something that would be better off not taking place so publicly. The fact still stands that you are here calling him a shithead and he is not calling you a shithead.
You're right, he's not calling me a shithead. He's telling me I'm a disgrace to TL, which is why I'm calling him a shitheaded ignorant child.
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Phyre/Atrioc: Day and Nony did a commentary on the GOM S1 finals (Savior vs Bisu), I recommend you try those, since their styles complement each other well. I can upload the audio and/or video if you want.
I don't remember if they were done live.
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United States1865 Posts
I have watched those actually -- I'm a huge sAviOr fan and they provided some great insight into those games when everyone was just running around shocked at the 3-0 (including myself). But again its a completely different type of commentary and I think both types should have a welcome home with respect for benefiting the SC community, even if one is more fulfilling to higher-level players.
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You people are retards. There's nothing wrong with elitism - if you don't like it, get the fuck out and go back to WCreplays. There's plenty of newbasses there and you can have a discussion about Pally first vs UD on TM.
One point was made that these shitty commentaries don't lead new players astray. Teamliquid doesn't need an influx of new blood if new blood is
1. not willing to learn from better players
2. a bunch of defensive pussies
You know how in Chinese martial art movies the master is so harsh on his students - that they do these seemingly pointless exercises? The reason they do that, and you do anything seemingly pointless, is so that you are able to do the more difficult thing at a level of real understanding.
SC is the same. You can come in here and fill up the forums with your trash and low quality. We are telling you that you are wrong. Would you go to a film review society and tell them how much of a good movie AvP was? How that the cinematography was excellent and the script was brilliantly structured? No - because you don't know shit. You could call them elitist, but guess what, they are right and you are wrong.
There's nothing wrong with being wrong - there's something wrong with being a fucking pussy about it. We don't need more new blood around here if that's all you have to offer.
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I agree with naventus although I choose to use kinder words because flaming isn't for me
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I'm mostly going to try to stay out of this.
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out.
I'm sorry but you can never know for sure if some player has some crazy new build they've cooked up. Not for sure. And yes, even pro gamers sometimes make mistakes. Not often, but it happens. I saw some pro game the other day where the guy made 2 citadels (to make his zealots go even faster?), lol. And don't give me the "omg not bisu he's too gosu" argument.. they're all human.
In any case, the other thing I wanted to say is that it's big of Diggity to come out and be reconciliatory about this whole thing, and it's really not cool for people to come in and respond to his "let's work this out" post with more flaming. There hasn't been much of that, but it irked me. Edit: Naventus this means you. If you're going to be an instigator in what was mostly a civil thread, at least do it in PM.
Also, you can't really blame Klaz for being defensive. As a hypothetical situation... imagine that you took up, I dunno... knitting. You try out knitting and you like it so you do more of it and you make some pot holders and you make a little scarf... and you're like wow, knitting is fun! You've been knitting for like 6 months and you go to a knitting club and they look at your half finished sweater and say "Oh my fucking god you noob you fucking suck you should never knit again and you suck!" You'd feel pretty offended, wouldn't you? You tell them that it's only a basic stitch and you think it's pretty good for a basic stitch and they call you a defensive pussy. But if you stopped now, you'd never be a gosu knitx0r, would you? I'm not sure if that metaphor is perfect, but I got to say "gosu knitx0r" so I'm calling it a success.
At the very least let's all be civil.
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That's only because you are used to people giving you stickers for effort.
There's something to be said for manning up, shutting up, and getting better.
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On January 25 2008 13:43 naventus wrote:
You people are retards. There's nothing wrong with elitism - if you don't like it, get the fuck out and go back to WCreplays. There's plenty of newbasses there and you can have a discussion about Pally first vs UD on TM.
LOL Typical
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Naventus you are a fucking man. I applaud you.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:58 f10esqftw wrote:
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out.
look man i agree with the rest of your post but you can't say this, you simply can't.
there are signs that tell you exactly what a player is doing. there is in fact 100% in starcraft, but its in specific things. any time either I or zulu has said something is "100%", we mean in that particular situation, and yes we can predict certain things with perfect accuracy.
I can't stand this stuff where you or klazart say that despite being wrong about something, we're not right either because "nothing is 100% in starcraft".
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On January 25 2008 14:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 13:58 f10esqftw wrote:
The one thing I wanted to comment on, though, is that while yes, there are certain things that pro players "always" do in certain situations.. you can't be SURE of them. There is no 100% in Starcraft. There just isn't. That has nothing to do with game knowledge.. If Starcraft was 100% then it wouldn't be here, folks. Boxer would have beaten everyone for another year or two and then it would have gotten boring and died out. look man i agree with the rest of your post but you can't say this, you simply can't. there are signs that tell you exactly what a player is doing. there is in fact 100% in starcraft, but its in specific things. any time either I or zulu has said something is "100%", we mean in that particular situation, and yes we can predict certain things with perfect accuracy. I can't stand this stuff where you or klazart say that despite being wrong about something, we're not right either because "nothing is 100% in starcraft".
Right, like 100% of the time protoss players will make only 1 citadel, and not accidentally make an extra............ Shit happens, dude. You can never know when it will happen, but it happens.
You can maybe know 100% what would almost always be the case, or know 100% what would be traditionally the best thing to do which you can expect from a pro player, but until it happens, you can't know it will.
That said, I understand that there are times when there may be a 99.9% situation where any player will almost always do X, and yes, sometimes I say "hmmm, maybe he's going to do Y." But no, there is no 100%. Whenever things are dependent on human decision, there is no complete certainty.
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stuff like nexus vs 12 hatch being safe is one of those 100% facts
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Calgary25981 Posts
The faster you accept you are wrong, the faster we can all grow and move on. For some reason you think your analysis is fine.
As your number one staff fan, I'm telling you it's terrible. More often that not you predict the entire build wrong. Otherwise you will say something about it being dangerous or very aggressive which is wrong, and if not that you will suggest a counter that is wrong. I'm not saying this to be a dick, but there's a lot wrong! 14 Nexus is safe against 12 Hatch but not 9 Pool are the kinds of things you need to know to give any sort of analysis on the game whatsoever.
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This is starting to look more an more to gg.net
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On January 25 2008 16:02 MeriaDoKk wrote:
This is starting to look more an more to gg.net
Don't worry, I'm sure calmer minds will prevail, and it will eventually lead to something good.
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Well
It's surprising how much a good nights sleep can do to clear one's head.
I've never claimed to be impeccable in my knowledge of starcraft, far from it. I try to commentate on the game as I know it. I do like learning more about the game though perhaps I don't have as much time as others to invest in that.
That being said, I find a lot of little, in fact every little thing that happens in a game of starcraft to be "interesting". How much of this is my love and passion for the game and how much stems from lack of knowledge I don't know. But I try to convey my enthusiasm because I feel it makes the game more enjoyable, and I do think a lot of other people also find it interesting. To me just saying, "this is standard," I dunno, it just feels dull and flavourles. Though I can see that maybe it makes some people wanna tear their hair out.
There has been a good amount of credible and positive/constructive critical feedback through the threads, but there have also been people who just seem "out to get us," which comes through in their tone, along with thinly veiled attacks and vitriolic innuendo. I'll be honest and admit that those particular comments, especially many of the abrasive ones by zulu to start with put my back up to begin with and put me in a defensive stance because regardless of his endless claims of the contrary it was very personal and I did take it very personally.
As for Fakesteve. I can appreciate that a lot of his comments he tried to be as impartial as he could. The fact is that he probably made a careless, offhand remark about calling someone who responded to them a "nobody" and my calling him out on it lead to the situation becoming worse. I'm sure deep down he probably feels it was the wrong thing to do, and my jumping on the mistake was probably a bit mercenary as well. Anyway, at the end of it I don't hold a personal animosity towards him. If he still feels I'm a shithead, well that's his perogative.
When people get personally involved in an arguement it's very easy to lose sight of judgement. I'm sure I did, as I feel did a few others.
Anyway, I'm putting this to rest now. I'm gonna keep commentating with as much enthusiasm as I can bring to it. Though I do feel demoralised right now, I hope time will help to lift that. As for feedback, if people who watch my commentaries feel I made a mistake in upcoming ones that I post, then I'd appreciate a polite and dispassionate PM. I'll do my best to take it as well intentioned and incorporate it into my commentating in the future. But if the tone is condescending or inflammatory I won't reply. I will not respond to threads in forums because it only leads to more flaming, despite whatever best intentions everyone might start out with.
I do sincerely apologise to anyone I've offended.
I also won't respond further in this thread.
So good luck to eveyrone and enjoy starcraft for the pure exhiliration that it is!
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I think there's a simple solution to all this.
Someone make a thread, titled something like English commentary corrections. And every time someone sees a commentary and sees a significant mistake (not calling Bisu Reach or something trivial like that), that person makes a post, links to the commentary, with time if possible, and makes an objective explanation of what went wrong.
Sea went 8 rax which is _____ because _____.
It's clear, it's to the point, and the lack of emotion in the wording should prevent anyone from having to feel like it's an attack. How many times have you gotten an essay back, read the red words and had to become offensive? I'd gather close to never, and that's because professional corrections are emotionless sons of bitches that are (almost) always right. It'll make the knowledgeable people feel better, and it'll help the commentators learn. It's pretty clear from responses that they simply don't have the time nor drive to mass games to learn. And who can blame them, they put a lot of time and effort on *commentating* after all. I'm sure no one rags on pro-team coaches for a general lack of SC playing either. They just... learn as they go, from other people. I think you can get a pretty damn good understanding of the game simply from watching and hearing, even if you won't be able to pull off/make the same decisions while playing. But that's not what anyone's after.
I think part of the problem so far was that things like zulu's corrections, which I agree with for the most part, were being taken so harshly because of the context, in that there was a lot of negativity. Make a clean, hopefully moderated start with a fresh thread built for the purpose. Should work.
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What in this fucking world could have possibly inspired all these novel-like emo posts? I'm not finding evidence of anything ;p
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these commentaries are not meant for the average tl.net veteran. veterans, get over it. you're right in your analysis (obviously) but who gives a shit. provide feedback in a way that will be effective or keep your mouth shut. demoralizing community contributors is a shitty thing to do. especially because if you're smart enough to know the beauty of starcraft as well as you do, you're also smart enough to know that your delivery won't accomplish anything positive. (honestly, zulu, fakesteve...? did you really think that the commentator - who you just listened to and were appauled with! - would react any differently than he did? Talk about understanding simple cause and effect!)
to anyone wishing to do a service for a community:
man the fuck up. when you expose yourself and your efforts to a large community, especially one that is partially contrived of people who know a whole fuckload more than you do about Starcraft, you're going to get extreme criticisms. that's just part and parcel to what you do. whether you allow yourself to get demoralized is entirely up to you. i can sympathize with your position - i was responsible for making balance changes/decisions for an RTS game with a relatively large hardcore community (where my contributions directly impact their playing experience, not just an optional tune-in commentary) and i would be lying if i said i was never demoralized. however, that same experience taught me the obvious axiom that taking it personally only hurts my ability to make good decisions, as well as hinders my ability to retain anything positive that could be garnered from such negative feedback.
In your position i would have made it very simple to the TL.net crowd: "Your criticisms of my analysis, while sound, are irrelevant to my goals of this commentary. If i ever care to do a commentary such as you desire, i will make sure to heed such advice."
or, if you're not patient with such faggots (like me), you could just say "go eat shit and die".
either way, grab a hold of your dick with two hands and swing it with some confidence.
edit - and keep up the good work!
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holy crap. Diggity has already said it, he does these commentaries for entertainment, and provides them for entertainment. They are a good starting point for nubs, semi nubs and semi gosus who want to watch an entertaining pro sc match.
If you watch and say stuff like "@ ? : ?? blah blah did this, you missed it, a critical mistake which could have turned the whole match around" then you arent exactly watching it for entertainment and rather watch pro vids to see strats and look to improve your already decent game, not watch just to see pure amazing play by pro players and dream of being able to pull off half of what they are able to do.
When Diggity, moletrap and Klaz politely started their thread, they didnt mention them being anything near to pro. Infact that they were welcome to some feedback knowing that they could do with alot of improvement if they were to appeal to the oh so elite tl vets. What they received was in some cases pure flaming and personal shots, all for doing the sc community a FUCKING MASSIVE FAVOR for providing them with easy access to hundreds and hundreds of vods on youtube with exciting, insightful commentary. I feel that these guys are really the only link between the aspiring noobs who are amazed by their vids and the vets who give shit all about their vids. How they are being treated is fucking poor, thousands of people know that you won't find nicer, politer guys than these 3, so why are they sometimes treated like peices of shit??
i think diggity summed it up in first post.
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Look I cringe at times watching some of the english vods at time cause yes they do give wrong, incorrect analysis. But obviously they are not pandering to you hardcore vets who know the game inside and out. Diggity, Moletrap, Klaz you guys are doing a good job of entertaining and streaming new blood into this community, hell even my little bros enjoys listening to your commentaries especially Klaz, so keep up the good work. You guys are defianetly fullfilling your role of being entertaining. Try not to take some of abrasive comments too personal.
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Mora: Have you considered that because we know the reaction would be what happened (commentators taking it terribly) that it pissed us off more.
I mean look at the last post by Klaz - the fact is that they aren't willing to try to get better at the game to better their content - and all you guys are worried about is making sure that their feelings are intact. You can imagine that from our point of view, we are saying to the community that hey you guys deserve better, and everyone that swarms in basically has said that no - we don't care about having better analysis, we just want to be entertained.
Think about that. Certainly people can enjoy Starcraft in different ways, but you would think that at a professional Starcraft site, we would emphasize (accurately) how intricate the game is. If you want to be entertained, go have a chat on the Bnet forums.
Again, I want to emphasize that the reason this has all turned into a huge flamewar was mainly because of the one central point that really ticked the people that disliked the commentaries off - that in basically none of the replies were the commentators willing to say that they wanted to improve their game through work - but rather just looked for "constructive" criticism, were defensive about their roles, and pussied out of actively improving their understanding. If anything that's a fucking disgusting and shameful mindset worthy of our frustration.
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Klazart I don't get how you take comments like, "Klazart again asks a retarded question" personally. Does that comment make you feel inferior as a human being? Am I attacking your intelligence? NO, I'm saying you asked a retarded question because you don't know anything about starcraft. That's not a personal insult in anyway I don't know how sensitive you have to be to get so worked up about that and start acting like a 5 year old. Since you insist on playing the victim who's unfairly targeted and will not take any criticisms because of their "tone".
On January 25 2008 16:50 Klaz wrote:
There has been a good amount of credible and positive/constructive critical feedback through the threads, but there have also been people who just seem "out to get us," which comes through in their tone, along with thinly veiled attacks and vitriolic innuendo. I'll be honest and admit that those particular comments, especially many of the abrasive ones by zulu to start with put my back up to begin with and put me in a defensive stance because regardless of his endless claims of the contrary it was very personal and I did take it very personally.
OMGOMG IM OUT TO GET YOU. I'm out to get you because you suck at commentating. That's completely unethical and wrong right. I should never criticize people harshly no matter how bad they are at something they do because that makes unsympathetic and a bad person in general.
On January 25 2008 16:50 Klaz wrote:
When people get personally involved in an arguement it's very easy to lose sight of judgement. I'm sure I did, as I feel did a few others.
I've never commented on anything about you besides your starcraft commentating ability. So if you feel like that was personal than you should re-evaluate how you take criticism.
This is the first thing I'll say about you Klazart, now that I've seen how you react. You are the definition of the word bitch, you think people's criticisms don't have any validity when their "tone" is rude or "out to get you." You can't seperate the simple fact that what a person says has no bearting on how he says it. You get personal over criticism that was not worth crying over. However you cried and threw a hissy fit and attacked fakesteve for his reaction to what another forum member said to him instead of concentrating on the fact that you have no knowledge about starcraft yet you're commentating professional games. Now after everything's settled you still act like you were targeted unfairly and had every right to react the way you did.
Klazart, you do not have the starcraft knowledge to accurately describe most of the stuff that is happening in a progaming game, much like Diggity and Moletrap. I have backed up my statement with evidence which you refuse to accept because you are a bitch. You are not a victim, you're simply a little girl who cries when someone critcizes you. I hope you will eventually understand.
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On January 26 2008 02:53 naventus wrote:
Mora: Have you considered that because we know the reaction would be what happened (commentators taking it terribly) that it pissed us off more.
I mean look at the last post by Klaz - the fact is that they aren't willing to try to get better at the game to better their content - and all you guys are worried about is making sure that their feelings are intact. You can imagine that from our point of view, we are saying to the community that hey you guys deserve better, and everyone that swarms in basically has said that no - we don't care about having better analysis, we just want to be entertained.
Think about that. Certainly people can enjoy Starcraft in different ways, but you would think that at a professional Starcraft site, we would emphasize (accurately) how intricate the game is. If you want to be entertained, go have a chat on the Bnet forums.
Again, I want to emphasize that the reason this has all turned into a huge flamewar was mainly because of the one central point that really ticked the people that disliked the commentaries off - that in basically none of the replies were the commentators willing to say that they wanted to improve their game through work - but rather just looked for "constructive" criticism, were defensive about their roles, and pussied out of actively improving their understanding. If anything that's a fucking disgusting and shameful mindset worthy of our frustration.
I'm not sure you understand what i was trying to say.
My point: if you were trying to improve the quality of the commentators by providing feedback, you delivered the feedback in such a way that your goal could not possibly be achieved. You defeated yourself.
If your goal was simply to deliver feedback (and not to improve the quality of the commentators), then you achieved that goal. Personally, i enjoyed reading steve's and zulu's rebuttles. They were articulate, to the point, well-writ, exceptionally painful (because of the lack of holes in their logic) - and let's face it, i'm in love with a well-written flame. i've attempted to deal my fair share of (legitimate/accurate) flames myself. However, if my sole goal is to help another improve at what they do, i do so in a way that will accomplish that goal. It's apparent that that was not the place everyone else was coming from. I feel that steve/zulu/other-flamers have masqueraded behind the idea that they are 'trying to help'. *it may be the case that zulu/steve do not have the necessary communication skills to accomplish such a task, and also may be oblivious to the existence of such social ettiquette. However, i doubt that. (particularly in the case of Steve)
If you're a teacher and you have a particularly thick student, do you berate him for what he does wrong? Do you call him clueless? Do you go out of your way to painstakingly pinpoint each mistake and how stupid they were? if so, i hope you never go into teaching. The best methods of teaching are from angles of being understanding, encouraging, and providing positive reinforcement. Of which i feel you guys failed miserably at.
But again, i'm fairly certain that that was never the goal. The goal was to flame the commentators (which is fun) in the way of providing accurate undebatable critique. Any attempt at improving their commentating was (obviously) a secondary goal. And they succeeded. They are not responsible for how personally the commentators took the critique (that's entirely up to the person receiving the critique), but knew with certainty that that was the outcome (just like the knew that Starport was coming).
I already stated that the commentators, if they have any desire to actually be successful at what they do, need to grow some balls and take all forms of criticism in stride. Which is completely irrelevant to the delivery that zulu chose to use.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, my points in sum:
* There is absolutely nothing wrong with flaming the commentators
* Flaming the commentators (specifically these ones) is the poorest way of improving their ability to do what they do.
* The second point is an axiom that should be known accross all genres of communication
As much as you would all like to think your critique is right, just, and necessary to them doing a good job, i think the fact that more people appreciate and enjoy their commentaries over the likes of Nony's, speaks for itself.
The content within the commentary is not nearly as important as the delivery. This is true because more people care about the delivery than the content. The small percentile of tl.net vets who think otherwise are unimportant.
Why don't you guys do something constructive and go flame Nony for being clueless. He is smart enough to not take it personally and could also use as much work in his delivery as the other's do in their content. (somewhat ironically, i'd imagine that any criticism given to nony would be delivered alot gentler than the criticism delivered to klaz and diggity. lol)
P.S. nony, i love your commentaries and do not wish for you to change a thing. While they don't cater to the broader audience they DO cater to me, and i love you for it. <3
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The pride level on TL is unbelievable and pathetic.
Good post, Mora
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EPT
